np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[alamaster]

Think about it like this guys; OHKO moves may or may not be broken, but they definitely do not benefit the metagame in any way. We should be focused on making a game that is fun and competitive. OHKO moves lessen both of these qualities. From playing all the way back in gen 3 I've seen OHKO moves around a lot and they simply do not work well enough for them to be broken. Arguing that they are broken is wrong, imo people should be saying that they don't want them in the game because it just doesn't add anything of value.

 

[TacoBot]

Well I suppose having it tested would be the right way to go, if only so we have a definite verdict. I don't see any reason why anyone would leave it unbanned even after testing however.

OHKO moves can make the impossible possible with no investment other than a moveslot. Something like Suicune can carry Sheer Cold to have a 30% chance of immediately thrashing Blissey/other Special Wall, and no Sturdy user will dare to switch in on Suicune. There might even become a niche of an OHKO lure, where the OHKO Pokemon switches in on something that can't threaten it and repeatedly spams OHKO moves. If Forry/Skarm/Gigalith/Ghost switch in they OHKO with the appropriate move.

 

[SlimMan]

Think about it like this guys; OHKO moves may or may not be broken, but they definitely do not benefit the metagame in any way. We should be focused on making a game that is fun and competitive. OHKO moves lessen both of these qualities. From playing all the way back in gen 3 I've seen OHKO moves around a lot and they simply do not work well enough for them to be broken. Arguing that they are broken is wrong, imo people should be saying that they don't want them in the game because it just doesn't add anything of value.

Personally I don't think Glsicor benefits the metagame. I think Gliscor doesn't add anything of value. But Gliscor isn't broken so I have to suck it up and deal. So I wouldn't say that your argument completely works.

Of course, my argument uses the old philosophy of banning broken stuff, not making an ideal metagame (though the two tend to go together). But the problem with the making the "best possible" metagame is that while I hate Gliscor, most people are fine with him. Majority rules, but still... :/

note: I do think OHKO and Evasion should remain banned. I was just providing another viewpoint.

 

[PK Gaming]

Personally I don't think Glsicor benefits the metagame. I think Gliscor doesn't add anything of value. But Gliscor isn't broken so I have to suck it up and deal. So I wouldn't say that your argument completely works.

Of course, my argument uses the old philosophy of banning broken stuff, not making an ideal metagame (though the two tend to go together). But the problem with the making the "best possible" metagame is that while I hate Gliscor, most people are fine with him. Majority rules, but still... :/

note: I do think OHKO and Evasion should remain banned. I was just providing another viewpoint.

That's hardly comparable. OHKO moves are dumb, any way you slice it. IIRC Smogon as a whole always tried to achieve the ideal metagame and we didn't just ban things that were broken. Uncompetitive elements too (DT, OHKO, etc)

Ala's point is valid.
Edit: Gliscor totally benefits metagame. He's like a catch-all counter to physical pokemon.
Edit 2: Its not a dumb reason lol. Do you honestly want to play in a metagame filled with OHKO moves?

 

[alamaster]

Personally I don't think Glsicor benefits the metagame. I think Gliscor doesn't add anything of value. But Gliscor isn't broken so I have to suck it up and deal. So I wouldn't say that your argument completely works.

Of course, my argument uses the old philosophy of banning broken stuff, not making an ideal metagame (though the two tend to go together). But the problem with the making the "best possible" metagame is that while I hate Gliscor, most people are fine with him. Majority rules, but still... :/

note: I do think OHKO and Evasion should remain banned. I was just providing another viewpoint.

That doesn't work because using Gliscor takes skill and anything that uses skill without being overpowering benefits the metagame. OHKO moves rely entirely on luck to work. It doesn't matter that you don't like Gliscor, fact is it doesn't rely entirely on luck and promotes new strategies as well as diversity.

 

[SlimMan]

That's hardly comparable. OHKO moves are dumb, any way you slice it.

Ala's point is valid.

I'm not saying Ala's point isn't valid. Cuz it is.

I'm just saying that "no benefit to the metagame" is hardly a reason for a ban. There are a shitload of things which "add nothing to the metagame" and yet remain unbanned.

I agree with Ala's reason. I use Ala's reason. But I personally think it's a dumb reason.

That doesn't work because using Gliscor takes skill and anything that uses skill without being overpowering benefits the metagame. OHKO moves rely entirely on luck to work. It doesn't matter that you don't like Gliscor, fact is it doesn't rely entirely on luck and promotes new strategies as well as diversity.

Gliscor was not the point of that post at all, and I actually said myself that my own hate is irrelevant. Perhaps you missed that part?

The point was that, although you were right, the idea that it should be banned just because it "has no positive outcome" or w/e disturbs me. I think it's odd logic. Once again, I agree with you, I just don't like the train of thought here.

 

[Human]

OHKO definitely should remain banned in my opinion, power from one move against such a variety of targets is enough to get it banned.

Double Team on the other hand, I would like to hear of one good user of Double Team in Singles. Blissey is the only possible broken evasion user, but it is so slow that even with Minimize it will take a pretty big hit and how it loses a moveslot is terrible for it, so even Minimize is not that effective.

Inconsistent, I didn't have any experience with it so I can't speak about it.

 

[iDunno]

In all honesty, I think of OHKO moves as critical hits that work 30% of the time, and when the move is not a crit it doesn't do damage. For instance, when there is a pokemon that walls your entire team, just spam an OHKO move, and that Pokemon's gone. That's akin to having something like Cosmic Power Deoxys at +6 walling your entire team, and the one turn you aren't behind a sub and you taunt something is the turn that a poke like Salamence gets a Crit on Outrage and OHKOes you. OHKO moves aren't that unreliable, and if you have a couple of turns to spare, its easy to spam and hope for hax.

 

[NC]

OHKO moves absolutely involve skill, just as much as focus blast or the like. If you are arguing that their effect is too much, you are arguing that they are too powerful, which many agree they are not, or at least that they should be tested. Their effect has little to do with the amount of luck involved.
To quote an earlier post of mine:

@masterful- First of all, OHKOs do require lots of prediction. What if the opponent has a pokemon with sturdy? What if you are using mind reader and need to decide whether they are going to switch the next turn? What if they use substitute? what if they have focus sash? What if you have a different, more optimal move you could be using? There is all that to keep in mind along with the fact that you are more likely-than-not going (70%) to accomplish nothing on your turn. Free turns are very dangerous.

 

[alamaster]

Those sound like counters to a very shitty strategy, not a reason that they involve any skill whatsoever.

 

[Nubbins]

This is why OHKO moves are stupid:

Mind Reader+Sheer Cold Articuno and Mind Reader+Fissure Poliwrath. Throw in a focus sash to virtually guarantee 2 turns (with proper support of course) and SR to break Sturdy users. No.

OHKO definitely should remain banned in my opinion, power from one move against such a variety of targets is enough to get it banned.

Double Team on the other hand, I would like to hear of one good user of Double Team in Singles. Blissey is the only possible broken evasion user, but it is so slow that even with Minimize it will take a pretty big hit and how it loses a moveslot is terrible for it, so even Minimize is not that effective.

Inconsistent, I didn't have any experience with it so I can't speak about it.

Evasion should never be even considered to be unbanned. Cosmic Power + Double Team Deoxys-D = win. I remember when there was still no evasion clause in PO when gen 5 first started. It wasn't fun, with Evasion passing Drifloons and ST Double Team Calm Mind Shanderas.

Remember that if Blissey switches into a pokemon it will force out (practically any special attacker) it has a free opporunity to minimize. How many here have faced the joys of Double Team/Softboiled/Toxic/Ice Beam Blissey in Battle Tower?

 

[NC]

Those sound like counters to a very shitty strategy, not a reason that they involve any skill whatsoever.

Those are all things a OHKO user has to potentially think about. I'm not sure how that is less "skill" based than using any other move, other than the chance of the attack working is lower.

 

[JSND]

other move work more time but dont guarantee OHKO
OHKO move guarantee kill should it hit. Its clear why it doesnt involve skill since as of now there is no ghost with sturdy to block 100 % unblockable OHKO(while it not miss) and even then even if its not that used much(Inconsistent say hi) its(OHKO) still uncompetitive.

 

[TacoBot]

Sturdy completely prevents OHKO guys (i.e. the move fails to work as if Pokemon is completely immune to it), even if you're not at full health.

Now please carry on.

EDIT: OHKO can be used skillfully as well, it's just that no competitive player worth their salt has actually put much thought about it because it's cheap and the general consensus is that irritating moves like that should be banned because we shouldn't have to carry Skarm/Forry just for a noob who would use Scarf Articuno.

 

[astrohawke]

In the hands of a bad player, OHKO moves are just an annoyance. In the hands of a good player, they can be game breaking. People keeping saying well just switch sturdy pokemon in. Except all the pokemon with sturdy are steel or rock types and I don't know about you but I would never switch my skarmory into an enemy lapras knowing it might carry surf/thunderbolt.

OHKO moves are also very anti-stall and while stall is getting harder to use, we don't need anything helping that along. All it takes is something like hydrarest lapras taking on any wall and you're bound to lose 1-2 pokemon before their PP runs out.

 

[JSND]

i wont switch my skarmory to get OHKOed by OHKO move in front of Ononokusu.
Shit it actualy happen

 

[iDunno]

In the hands of a bad player, OHKO moves are just an annoyance. In the hands of a good player, they can be game breaking.

If your strategy relies on a successful hit with an OHKO move at the precise time that you want it to, you are a indeed bad player. Any good player could win more consistently by using a better strategy, such as actually hitting your opponent with a contact move and whiddling its HP down to zero. Oh hey! Defensive Suicune walls my team! Ok, I'll just lure it with my Golem and take it out with Fissure because that will definitely work most of the time, right? Oh and I'll use Focus Blast instead of Aura Sphere on Lucario, to it teh Blisseys better. Because Focus Blast never misses.

 

[SJCrew]

OHKO moves are a not a strategy, they're brainless elements of luck that KO a Pokemon on a whim.

"Oh no! Noob405 clicked Sheer Cold and I just lost a Pokemon for no reason!"

This is not inductive to competitive Pokemon.

 

[Nubbins]

According to Bulbapedia, if a Sturdy pokemon is hit by a OHKO move, it's knocked down to 1 HP. So they're pretty much screwed since most sturdy pokemon are slow. Sturdy can't counter OHKO moves now. I don't know whether PO's like this though.

 

[JSND]

In general, 5th gen meta is prolly the most annoying and fun meta in the whole. Seriously they nerf water type by putting spiker taht abuse water type but then they give water type boil over. They are trolling us HARD which is why i think rain become the most diverse and broken in once.

 

[Yogi Bear.]

According to Bulbapedia, if a Sturdy pokemon is hit by a OHKO move, it's knocked down to 1 HP. So they're pretty much screwed since most sturdy pokemon are slow. Sturdy can't counter OHKO moves now. I don't know whether PO's like this though.

So Sturdy users Can be hit by moves that OHKO (Sheer Cold, Fissure, etc.) now? That sucks. I can understand in terms of how the ability changed but... that sucks in game, where you're more likely to see it.

I think an OHKO move by itself is not a strategy only because of the high chance of missing.

However, if you're using Mind Reader/Lock-On in conjunction with the OHKO move, not only does it become a viable strategy, but it can be a deadly playing style that is somewhat OP. You have to hope you have something immune to the killing move of choice(Ghost for Guillotine, Flying for Fissure, etc.) Or that you can kill them before they kill you.

I will admit however, not speaking from experience.

 

[astrohawke]

If your strategy relies on a successful hit with an OHKO move at the precise time that you want it to, you are a indeed bad player. Any good player could win more consistently by using a better strategy, such as actually hitting your opponent with a contact move and whiddling its HP down to zero. Oh hey! Defensive Suicune walls my team! Ok, I'll just lure it with my Golem and take it out with Fissure because that will definitely work most of the time, right? Oh and I'll use Focus Blast instead of Aura Sphere on Lucario, to it teh Blisseys better. Because Focus Blast never misses.

Can you read? I said you send something in against a wall that is annoying but can't hurt you. It's not "hey let's send golem in on suicune". It's more like "hey let's send lapras in on blissey".

 

[masterful]

Those are all things a OHKO user has to potentially think about. I'm not sure how that is less "skill" based than using any other move, other than the chance of the attack working is lower.

That is so dumb. It really is. Here you go. Here's a super-complex strategy for you. 1 Set up stealth rock.
2. Bring in Scarf Sheer Cold Articuno
3.Most likely take out at least one enemy poke.
That was really skillful, right?

 

[Acritter]

I think the point's been beaten into the ground at this point. OHKO moves offer nothing to the competitive Pokemon scene but the opportunity for griefers to run 6OHKOmon teams and piss people off. OHKO moves would almost certainly not be broken, but they would be an absolute pain in the ass for everyone involved. Imagine Inconsistent without attack boosts: it's not broken because it can't kill a team, but it's an absolute pain to break. OHKO moves are in the same boat (sort of). They're dubiously broken, but definitely harmful.

 

[ensoriki]

That is so dumb. It really is. Here you go. Here's a super-complex strategy for you. 1 Set up stealth rock.
2. Bring in Scarf Sheer Cold Articuno
3.Most likely take out at least one enemy poke.
That was really skillful, right?

You shouldn't use the word most likely, since considering it's accuracy, it is unlikely.

If anything Mind reader Articuno's threat is that if you switch, sure it's now not a guaranteed OHKO but the switch in still has a chance to be ohko'd.