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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Actually you should ALWAYS hit for 244 speed. You really do not want to lose your wall to a fast mix Tyranitar spamming Ice Beam.
And if anything let's just ban STAB Swift Swim...I wanna use Armaldo....
And if anything let's just ban STAB Swift Swim...I wanna use Armaldo....
Couldn't agree more. Offensive sets, defensive sets, status absorber, baton passer, hazard layer, stallbreaker...Gliscor does it all without costing the team anything at all, given its excellent synergy with pretty much every water-type in existence.
I was reading the latest issue of the Smog and came across the 4 OU veterans - Starmie, Gengar, Zapdos, and Snorlax. While Snorlax is sure to be UU this gen, I could see the other three staying OU, and I really want to note Starmie as a great pokemon this metagame (and generation in general). Base 115 speed is simply amazing, as there are almost no new threats that I can think of that will outrun it without some sort of boost (lol Zebstrika and Whimsicott). Awesome coverage, Rapid Spin, Natural Cure - Starmie really does do it all, and I don't see it dropping too far down anytime soon.
It works decently against Sun teams - they may have their water weaknesses taken away (fire types), but few things like taking neutral LO Hydro Pump in the first place. Even Snorlax is 3HKOd, while only Venusaur has the bulk to take a predicted Ice Beam. Other chlorophyll users succumb to a single hit of it. Rain teams will suffer from its speed and coverage as well; I usually find myself checking Thundurus, Tornadus, and Virizion with it. Finally, it crushes Sand pretty easily as well. It may be outsped by Excadrill, but it wipes out even SpD Tyranitar with Hydro Pump, annihilates the ground-types that find themselves on the team, and outspeeds a good bit of their slower support pokemon (I"m talking Reuniclus, slower steels, etc).
Ferrothorn is the only thing that really hampers Starmie this meta, and it could run HP Fire if it wanted to. But really, with the metagame being more ground- and fighting-based, Starmie has gained more than enough to offset the loss that Ferrothorn is.
I was reading the latest issue of the Smog and came across the 4 OU veterans - Starmie, Gengar, Zapdos, and Snorlax. While Snorlax is sure to be UU this gen, I could see the other three staying OU, and I really want to note Starmie as a great pokemon this metagame (and generation in general). Base 115 speed is simply amazing, as there are almost no new threats that I can think of that will outrun it without some sort of boost (lol Zebstrika and Whimsicott). Awesome coverage, Rapid Spin, Natural Cure - Starmie really does do it all, and I don't see it dropping too far down anytime soon.
It works decently against Sun teams - they may have their water weaknesses taken away (fire types), but few things like taking neutral LO Hydro Pump in the first place. Even Snorlax is 3HKOd, while only Venusaur has the bulk to take a predicted Ice Beam. Other chlorophyll users succumb to a single hit of it. Rain teams will suffer from its speed and coverage as well; I usually find myself checking Thundurus, Tornadus, and Virizion with it. Finally, it crushes Sand pretty easily as well. It may be outsped by Excadrill, but it wipes out even SpD Tyranitar with Hydro Pump, annihilates the ground-types that find themselves on the team, and outspeeds a good bit of their slower support pokemon (I"m talking Reuniclus, slower steels, etc).
Ferrothorn is the only thing that really hampers Starmie this meta, and it could run HP Fire if it wanted to. But really, with the metagame being more ground- and fighting-based, Starmie has gained more than enough to offset the loss that Ferrothorn is.
EQ doesn't KO T-Tar. It maxes out at 66.7% against 4/0 T-Tar. Which means you'll be eating an Ice Beam anyway.
Just want to point out that max/max Careful Snorlax takes a maximum of 32.6% from LO Hydro Pump. So it is 4HKOd, not 3HKOed.
Sorry to be nit-picky.
Keep in mind that with a layer of rocks/spikes, Tyranitar is taking anywhere from 65%-75%. Considering Tyranitar's bulk and tendency to switch in to various threats, it isn't a shabby amount by any means. Obviously you won't be trying to take down a full-health Tar.
Max/Max Careful Snorlax? I'm not sure that even exists. It usually either maxes HP or it maxes SpD, but not both. The closest is the Curse set which invests in both. Again, Stealth Rock negates 2 turns of Leftovers for Snorlax, meaning that 4 HP / 252 SpD Careful variants (non CB attacker) is 3HKOd.
I disagree for several reasons:
1) Fast Mixtar is not even nearly as common as it used to be a few months ago, most people seem to prefer bulky (mixed) sets to endure Latios Draco Meteors
2) From just one attack one can easily calculate whether the t-tar set is the bulky version or the fast version.
3) Gliscor can't KO t-tar with EQ as such chances you actually NEED gliscor to revenge kill T-tar are rather situational. Considering pretty much any team has at least 1 pokemon who can flat out KO t-tar.
To be honest, i consider the Speed ev's most people give to Gliscor to be a huge waste of potential.
Most of the time i consider any of those pokemons who actually run max speed in this generation to highly inferior to those who carry a 252 HP investment, which means they can be countered more easily by others.
While a high speed stat may provide some security, good scouting can also allow you to prevent being surprised by those who carry a lot of speed.
The reason why i carry max defense instead is because the biggest threat for me are not those who carry rather odd EV spreads but those who are lucky enough to land critical hits. Several times before i barely managed to survive from critical hits simply because i have more defense than most gliscors. Luck management so to speak.
People are too worried about this for absolutely no reason.
Every time a slightly complex ban is brought up, people say that it will drive away new players. Any ban runs the risk of driving away new players, but a slightly complex ban isn't any more likely to do so than a simple ban. Obviously, going into the basic abilities of a Pokemon and surgically cutting out moves, items, and EV spreads to make them OU-viable is too complex, but other types of complex bans that have been suggested are distinctly different from that and would likely cause no more problems than any other type of ban. Aldaron's proposal is one example of such a ban.
That said, I disagree with one Swift Swimmer per team. Even individually, Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo are all broken in Drizzle conditions, and all three of them should always be banned alongside Drizzle, as should Manaphy. Other Swift Swim users are not broken even in Drizzle, and should be permitted. Aldaron's proposal has a great deal of merit to it, but it should be tailored to only apply to the Pokemon that are actually broken. Banning things that are not broken goes against Smogon's policy, and should not go on any longer than it needs to. It needs to happen for the duration of this suspect test, but no longer.
I disagree. I just go for the reliable Max/Max Def variant and it works great. Since I usually run Poison Heal, I have protect to scout for Ice Beams if necessary. Also helps against HP Ice Landlos and Kojondo (although misprediction, especially for Landlos, can often cost me the game if they just SD in my face).
I do agree that Gliscor is one of the best Pokemon this generation.
Well in a ideal scenario when 2 Ice Fang/EQ/SD/Taunt Gliscors face each other with one having 252HP/252Def and the other 252HP/162Def/96Spe the former would win most of the time. Considering according to my calcs it would take the fast gliscor 5x Ice fang hits to take down the bulky one and 4x Ice fang hits for the other. If you taunt and SD first while the other Ice Fangs you'll lose as well. I'm aware that there are also scenario's in which the faster one could win, however this is just to illustrate that being faster does not necessarily guarentee a victory.
Also this is some sort of self-fullfilling prophecy, which reminds me of the ridiculous speed creep wars with Taunt skarmory in Gen IV.
^ I have no idea where you are getting those numbers, at +2 Ice Fang is 2HKOing whether you have 162 or 252 Defense EVs. Let me put it this way: I run enough Speed to reach 246, and because of that I always come out on top in Gliscor vs. Gliscor matches, assuming we both switch in at the same time or both start at +0. And there have definitely been times where I've come out on top after coming in on a SD or an Ice Fang. Your theorymon about the lower Speed Gliscor coming out on top isn't going to shake my extensive testing experience on the matter.
Now, whether winning Gliscor vs. Gliscor match-ups is reason enough to invest in Speed is another matter entirely. In my opinion it is, considering if your Gliscor can take the opposing one down, you've probably opened a huge defensive gap in their team. 80 EVs (72 if you want to reach 244, dunno where you're getting 96 EVs from) justifies that IMO.
EDIT:
+0 Ice Fang to 252/176 Impish Gliscor: 32.8% - 39.5%
+0 Ice Fang to 252/252 Impish Gliscor: 31.6% - 38.4%
... yeah that 1.2% extra damage really makes up for going second. /sarcasm
Now, whether winning Gliscor vs. Gliscor match-ups is reason enough to invest in Speed is another matter entirely. In my opinion it is, considering if your Gliscor can take the opposing one down, you've probably opened a huge defensive gap in their team. 80 EVs (72 if you want to reach 244, dunno where you're getting 96 EVs from) justifies that IMO.
EDIT:
+0 Ice Fang to 252/176 Impish Gliscor: 32.8% - 39.5%
+0 Ice Fang to 252/252 Impish Gliscor: 31.6% - 38.4%
... yeah that 1.2% extra damage really makes up for going second. /sarcasm
Uh, I don't get this suggestion for allowing one Swift Swimmer + Drizzle. The current ban was already sort of pushing it and had to be justified as a way to speed up this "experiment", and it helped that rules of similar complexity existed before. This suggestion just pushes that to a stupid extreme, going past even the joke clauses of old. Do we really gain anything from allowing Armaldo/Ludicolo to be viable? Given my experiences so far, the best modification (if any had to be done) would be a straight Swift Swim ban (along with maybe a certain Pokémon or two).
Competitive game communities overall have largely stuck with one-subject-per-statement rules, and there's a good reason for that. A game gets decidedly worse when bogged down by technicalities (which is also why I dislike the whole "hidden ability" thing that Generation V did). People like to quote Sirlin when talking about warranted bans, but discreetness is important, too. Hell, the Swift Swim + Drizzle combo ban turned out to be difficult to enforce, even, delaying the whole test. I mean, yes, there are times when a "complex rule" can benefit the game overall, like castling and en passant in chess, but let's not go overboard here.
Competitive game communities overall have largely stuck with one-subject-per-statement rules, and there's a good reason for that. A game gets decidedly worse when bogged down by technicalities (which is also why I dislike the whole "hidden ability" thing that Generation V did). People like to quote Sirlin when talking about warranted bans, but discreetness is important, too. Hell, the Swift Swim + Drizzle combo ban turned out to be difficult to enforce, even, delaying the whole test. I mean, yes, there are times when a "complex rule" can benefit the game overall, like castling and en passant in chess, but let's not go overboard here.
I think where people are coming from is that it's kind of like banning Magic Guard because Rankurusu is too good with it, even though Clefable is nowhere near broken with it.
3-4 pokemon were deemed broken with Swift Swim, not the ability itself (unlike Inconsistent, which made even a Glalie seem broken), so to punish others who barely benefit from it (like Armaldo and Beartic), and leaving Sand Throw and Chlorophyll intact, seems a tad unfair to me.
Hopefully responding to your post doesn't generate three new pages of Swift Swim discussion...
3-4 pokemon were deemed broken with Swift Swim, not the ability itself (unlike Inconsistent, which made even a Glalie seem broken), so to punish others who barely benefit from it (like Armaldo and Beartic), and leaving Sand Throw and Chlorophyll intact, seems a tad unfair to me.
Hopefully responding to your post doesn't generate three new pages of Swift Swim discussion...
I don't get why people have a problem with "complex bans". Considering the number of things you need to learn about/be aware of in order to play competitive Pokemon: types, STAB, EVs, IVs, Natures, Abilities, common Pokemon sets, what every single item/move does, etc. etc. etc., the barrier for new players to competitive Pokemon is already very high. After someone learns all that stuff, how does something as simple as "you can't use X with Y" complicate things further? And if the "complex ban" makes the game better for those who are deeply vested in the game, why should we care if the barrier to new entrants is raised just a little higher?
The only annoying thing is inconsistencies from one server to another, but that's an issue that goes beyond "Swift Swim + Drizzle", so I don't think that's really a valid point to bring up.
The only annoying thing is inconsistencies from one server to another, but that's an issue that goes beyond "Swift Swim + Drizzle", so I don't think that's really a valid point to bring up.
The problem imo is not that they are "complex" but that they are completely arbitrary.
Time for my favorite example, which I'm sure many of you have read time and time again by now:
Let's take wobbuffett last gen. It has Shadow tag, encore, and countercoat, and is decided to be Uber becuase of them. We decide to allow complex bans to get wob in OU. Well, now then, what do we ban? Do we ban Shadow tag+wob? Do we ban encore+wob? Do we ban countercoat+wob? Any of the bans will make Wob OU.
When we allow only simple bans, there is only one thing we can ban- the pokemon that is the sum total of the factors that make it broken, or a single factor if it is broken in and of itself (such as inconsistent).
Time for my favorite example, which I'm sure many of you have read time and time again by now:
Let's take wobbuffett last gen. It has Shadow tag, encore, and countercoat, and is decided to be Uber becuase of them. We decide to allow complex bans to get wob in OU. Well, now then, what do we ban? Do we ban Shadow tag+wob? Do we ban encore+wob? Do we ban countercoat+wob? Any of the bans will make Wob OU.
When we allow only simple bans, there is only one thing we can ban- the pokemon that is the sum total of the factors that make it broken, or a single factor if it is broken in and of itself (such as inconsistent).
The complex rule issue is not a black-or-white problem; that's why I mentioned castling and en passant at all, and alluded to the Perish trap ban in GSC. I'll readily admit that the current combo ban was effective in improving the game, compensating for the detriment from the "complexity" of it. I even added "if any [modification] had to be done". I just don't believe that the same can be said of allowing one Swift Swimmer on a rain team. If the improvement to the game is negligible, then there's no point in pursuing it and raising the beginner barrier.
it's not the same thing.
you are talking about banning a combo that involves only a single pokemon when aldaron's proposal talks about banning a combo involving 2 pokemons or more...
your example doesn't bring any valid analogy to aldaron's proposal,cause the restriction of using 2 abilities in the same team and the restriction of a pokemon's moveset or abilities are completely different issues .
Actually the hazard mention you made is exactly why I mentioned alternate and instant recovery being such a huge issue in Gen 5. Think of it from the other end in that after hazards are out, some of the highly abusive defensive sets don't even notice hazards half the time. This helps ALOT in quick stall since you essentially get to switch, wall, run and still get HP back the perfect example being mentioned next.
I point these statements out because they mention one of the finest samples I talk about, Gliscor being one of the biggest posterboy of Gen 5 stall. Sure as mentioned recovery doesn't do much when it may get offed in 1 hit by a Ice or strong Water attack.
But against anything which doesn't pack any of those moves he can come in and smack you with impunity. Furthermore slap in the sheer cheesiness of it being utterly immune to any form of status and Protect acting as a no risk move for it scouting and recovery. Then you have some of the most infuriating sets like the Sub/Protect Gliscors who can sit there all day long without a care in the world able to instantly recover sub health with one protect even if they don't abuse the new mechanics.
Once it feels it doesn't like your next Ice or Water attack it just simply runs off to any of the many partners it can have such as Heatran, Skarmory, Vaporean, Ferrothorn and probably more I can't recall. Then the cycle repeats, you can't do a thing with your current Pokemon and have to switch. They get free recovery or often don't even need it and the situation keeps resetting over and over again.
Of course I haven't even bothered considering it may be offensive too which complicates things even more...and as you see stall has far more options this gen.
Ciccino speed ties Starmie too and will utterly decimate it with Bullet Seed, not that it changes Starmie being OU but I'd be more afraid of the squirrel sooner than Zebstrika tbh.
I think this thread needs to stop talking about individual pokemon and focus on the real problem here. Drizzle. If drizzle isnt gone this voting round the metagame will be unplayable.The combo ban is the worst attempt at a nerf i have ever seen. The combo ban does not stop overpowered abilities like hydration. The combo ban doesn't stop pokemon with scarfs or specs from spamming boosted hydro pumps and surfs. I don't understand where the last voters got off thinking that the combo ban made the metagame more diverse. When all I see on the ladder are politoad and naitorri! Swift swim was only half the problem. If something is broken just ban it. This is just like banning draco meteor instead of salamence because people want to still use salamence. I hope that alderons proposal gets overturned because it really sucks for 70% of teams to be rain teams.
All that'd happen though if you banned Rain is that Sun or Sand would simply take over and we'd be screaming for Sun ban but nobody would ever bother calling for a Sand ban because of how deeply ingrained it is into the game that nobody can ever think of a metagame without Sand. Yet Sand and Sun have also gone through the very same buffs Rain has to make them just as deadly.
I mean only thing you really can do is to run a Weatherless ladder to test how different it is from the normal environment but I doubt ultimately it'd ammount to much.
I mean only thing you really can do is to run a Weatherless ladder to test how different it is from the normal environment but I doubt ultimately it'd ammount to much.
lolwut. The boosted STABs and so on I can see, but Hydration is hardly overpowered. Manaphy is, perhaps, but Hydration was only one factor in its brokenness.
From my own personal experience Rain teams are far less common now with Aldaron's proposal, and certainly easier to deal with. Scarfed mons are the same speed as swift swimmers, yes, but lack the raw power of a specs kingdra for example, making it a lot easier to wall them. Thundurus and Tornelos are dicks, but to me seem no more threatening than say the abusers of Sand (Landorus in particular, who is equally hard to wall), while DNite is maimed by SR and is pretty slow (the aforementioned are the biggest threats in Rain). Just the increase in diversity in Rain is surely an indication that it is no longer as overpowering as well. I think Aldaron's proposal isn't ideal, but is a good solution to an issue in the metagame, and since it works there is no reason to change it.
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