np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[JSND]

Bulky is not only for defensive threats.
This meta is more based on bulky attacker or set upper and bulky poke rather than fast powerful fragile poke. Just by seeing from top threats in minute and you will see how bulky oriented gen 5 was compared to fast poke hard hitting meta based meta everyone seems to say.
Also gen 5 meta is actualy a bit of slower in a kind compared to gen 4(and believe it many have found out this statement to be quite true sometime)

Exception is for the djinn and weather though. Heck weather threats such as venus and dory is quite dang bulky

 

[Meru]

If you think Slowbro isn't common, you're not playing enough. I see it about once every four games or so, which is pretty common in my book. Also add to the list Gliscor and the 10 zillion new sets it can run, Rotom Washer (I consider him to be pretty defensive), Latias. The metagame is pretty bulky.

 

[Requiem[9]]

Its like dory is not the only things you need to beat. And even if you can revenge pretty much everything, deoxys-S still has that dissapointing 95 attacks that need to break through gen 5 Heavy Bulky Metagame.

Well, the point of offensive D-S is never to sweep or break stall, it's to clean up teams that have already been weakened, a job which it does extremely effectively. It has the coverage to kill most of the bulky pokemon in the metagame anyway, depending on what you need to do, but the main selling point is how devastating it is against teams without those bulky pokemon and teams that have had to switch around in SR and Spikes for a few turns. If you're throwing it out there and expecting it to just kill a bunch of stuff like Infernape or Doryuuzu, it's obviously going to be mediocre but that's the fault of your play more than the pokemon. In rain, the most common weather for it due to the lack of Swift Swim and natural support of Spikes/SR Nattorei, it's pretty devastating. You can even run Thunder if you have problems with its power there, but you really won't.

 

[JSND]

i actualy used deo-s as cleaner but he cant really clean up well with 95 offense in this very bulky meta from what i have tried.
Back in gen 4, everything commonly used is not bulky like gen 5 was making a job for paving way for the cleaner easy. Gen 5 is different, its basicaly a batle of withstanding and dissing out not so powerful attack at constant number or with boosted power.

 

[KurashiDragon]

There have always been bulky attackers and defensive threats, but things like Slowbro, Porygon2, and Scrafty are not common in any sense of the word. And Dragonite can be easily killed by Deo-S as long as SR is up, which isn't too much of an undertaking

1. You pretty much missed the entire point of my post. When you stated that this isnt a bulky metagame I simply gave examples to prove your point is mute.

2. Mabye those pokemon arent common for you but I see them often enough to the point where their a thorn in my side.

3. With proper support Dragonite can be a very bulky threat. I've never had a problem with any Deoxys-s ice beam. Also CB Dragonite can kill off Deoxys-s with Extremespeed before it ever gets off its ice beam. (Ironic when you consider your killing Deoxys-s with a priority attack.)

 

[Requiem[9]]

i actualy used deo-s as cleaner but he cant really clean up well with 95 offense in this very bulky meta from what i have tried.
Back in gen 4, everything commonly used is not bulky like gen 5 was making a job for paving way for the cleaner easy. Gen 5 is different, its basicaly a batle of withstanding and dissing out not so powerful attack at constant number or with boosted power.

D-S is going to do at least 50% to anything and much more to most. While that's not perfect for getting through pokemon like Latias, I don't see how that's remotely bad. Against many teams in the current metagame, it forces concession after concession with proper prediction. Most of the currently popular bulky pokemon that you're talking about -- Gliscor, Dragonite, Slowbro, Nattorei -- are 1-2HKO'd anyway. Beyond that, I can't really argue against "I've used him and he's too weak" other than say I've used him and he was great even on a team I threw together in five minutes and that I've seen players like Krack using him far better than I ever could. It's by no means a broken pokemon in the current metagame, but it's a top-tier threat and it's wrong to dismiss it because of its stats.

 

[masterful]

1. You pretty much missed the entire point of my post. When you stated that this isnt a bulky metagame I simply gave examples to prove your point is mute.

2. Mabye those pokemon arent common for you but I see them often enough to the point where their a thorn in my side.

3. With proper support Dragonite can be a very bulky threat. I've never had a problem with any Deoxys-s ice beam. Also CB Dragonite can kill off Deoxys-s with Extremespeed before it ever gets off its ice beam. (Ironic when you consider your killing Deoxys-s with a priority attack.)

1)Just because there are bulky options, that does not mean the meta is bulky. Your point isn't supported well.
2)This can't really be argued, since usage stats are nowhere to be found as of now.
3)Unless you predict Deo-S and spam Extremespeed, that Drgonite will die to IceBeam if it's not at 100% health, which requires you run lefties AND Roost in most cases. AND THAT'S NOT WHAT IRONY IS! That's completely irrelevant, but I felt it needed to be said.

 

[capefeather]

Is it just me or has Virizion been spiking again? Virizion stopped being all that useful to me, but it seems like it's gaining a lot of popularity. I'm also seeing a lot more Reuniclus and I hate them...

As far as the topic at hand goes, I think that the offensive improvements eclipse the defensive ones. Both "frail" offensive and "bulky" offensive Pokémon have proven to be very threatening. Just off the top of my head, Reuniclus, Blaziken, the genies, Virizion and Terrakion are all good attackers that together cover a wide spectrum of bulk. On the other hand, defense has gotten some effective options like Regenerator Slowbro and Unaware Quagsire.

 

[MasterX]

Latios is too powerful. If we take a look at fourth gen and latias, we know the main reason it was banned and its because of choice specs. It is too powerful and with some minimal spikes it can 2HKO counters with surf such as tyranitar and scizor. To top it off, it can trick blissey a solid counter leaving it crippled for other mons to set up. We are all trying to leave it alone now, but we all now its brokeness. Sooner or later, latios will have to go. Think about latias which only had 110,110 offense and now we're looking at 130,110

 

[KurashiDragon]

1)Just because there are bulky options, that does not mean the meta is bulky. Your point isn't supported well. 2)This can't really be argued, since usage stats are nowhere to be found as of now. 3)Unless you predict Deo-S and spam Extremespeed, that Drgonite will die to IceBeam if it's not at 100% health, which requires you run lefties AND Roost in most cases. AND THAT'S NOT WHAT IRONY IS! That's completely irrelevant, but I felt it needed to be said.

1. You misunderstand again. I was not trying to prove the metagame was bulky I was trying to disprove what you said about the metagame not being bulky. Plus I only provided a few examples. I could provide more but I honestly don't wanna.

2. This can be used against you as well. Until usage stats are made you really cant prove these pokemon arent used very much and the metagame isn't bulky.

3. Ok first off you don't have to run Roost and Lefties to abuse Multi Scale. With the correct support you could very easily abuse Multiscale. Second you'd be correct in saying that's not what irony is but I never intended that to be part of the discussion. I just thought it was funny that Deoxys-S is being killed by Extremespeed. Third I'm not gonna get in this whole situation of Deoxys vs dragonite because there are a ton of ways that could go down with Dragonite or Deoxys winning so I'm not gonna talk about that anymore. The whole reason that argument went down into the first place is because you dont believe Dragonite is bulky. On its own I'd agree with you. Without Roost and lefties it's rather easy to stop Multiscale. However my argument is that with the correct support you can abuse Multiscale multiple times. Wish and spin support are 2 examples of easily abusing Multiscale multiple times. Therefore I believe Dragonite falls under the category of bulky.

 

[masterful]

1. You misunderstand again. I was not trying to prove the metagame was bulky I was trying to disprove what you said about the metagame not being bulky. Plus I only provided a few examples. I could provide more but I honestly don't wanna.

2. This can be used against you as well. Until usage stats are made you really cant prove these pokemon arent used very much and the metagame isn't bulky.

3. Ok first off you don't have to run Roost and Lefties to abuse Multi Scale. With the correct support you could very easily abuse Multiscale. Second you'd be correct in saying that's not what irony is but I never intended that to be part of the discussion. I just thought it was funny that Deoxys-S is being killed by Extremespeed. Third I'm not gonna get in this whole situation of Deoxys vs dragonite because there are a ton of ways that could go down with Dragonite or Deoxys winning so I'm not gonna talk about that anymore. The whole reason that argument went down into the first place is because you dont believe Dragonite is bulky. On its own I'd agree with you. Without Roost and lefties it's rather easy to stop Multiscale. However my argument is that with the correct support you can abuse Multiscale multiple times. Wish and spin support are 2 examples of easily abusing Multiscale multiple times. Therefore I believe Dragonite falls under the category of bulky.

1)Once more, you proved nothing by listing a bunch of bulky pokes. Just because something is available ,does not make it a significant part of the metagame. There are bulky threats, but this metagame is by no means a very bulky one outside 2 or 3 threats.
2)Not arguing against you. I'm just dropping the point because neither of us can provide any real evidence.
3)The amount of support it takes to effectively abuse multi-scale usually requires one to be running full stall, in which Deo-S is completely boned either way. So yes, Dragonite is bulky if played properly, but Deo-S is not good against stall in general, and I'm not arguing against that. A lone Dragonite without Blissey and/or a spinner can't beat Deo-S the majority of the time.

 

[KurashiDragon]

1)Once more, you proved nothing by listing a bunch of bulky pokes. Just because something is available ,does not make it a significant part of the metagame. There are bulky threats, but this metagame is by no means a very bulky one outside 2 or 3 threats.
2)Not arguing against you. I'm just dropping the point because neither of us can provide any real evidence.
3)The amount of support it takes to effectively abuse multi-scale usually requires one to be running full stall, in which Deo-S is completely boned either way. So yes, Dragonite is bulky if played properly, but Deo-S is not good against stall in general, and I'm not arguing against that. A lone Dragonite without Blissey and/or a spinner can't beat Deo-S the majority of the time.

1. Reuniclus and Conkeldurp are both very common bulky threats that much is true. However going back to the 2nd argument for a second you dont know how prominent these threats are. Neither do I but I wasn't stating them because I know how much usage they have. I was stating them because they are bulky and they're at the very least useful in this metagame.

3. That's not true in the slightest. I myself run semi-stall with Multiscale CBnite and it's the mvp of my team because of the support I give it. Also it really depends on what set dragonite is running to beat Deoxys-s. Granted without 2 dds there's no way bulkyddnite is taking on Deoxys if it has taken prior damage. However, mixednite and CBnite both run Extremespeed to take it on.

 

[JSND]

Okay basicaly, this meta is offensive, but rather of having improvement in offensive side, the bulk of offensive side is basicaly shot up really hard which make this bulky metagame combined with rather fast fierce attack and slow steady attack that make teh whole metagame.

As for latios he is very underwhelming. He doesnt hit as hard as i wanted and theres many poke that can check him or counter him.
So no hes not OP

DOes anyone have tried the 130 speed clan yet ?(Crobat Aero Jolteon)
They seems interesting in current meta.

Crobat have that STAB BB, good resistance set and all around good stats
Aero has that quite good attacking stats and the speed and SS
Jolt can be used in rain for example.

Just thought Crobat is one of the greatest check to sun team core(Venusaur, Shikijika, Tangrowth)

 

[masterful]

1. Reuniclus and Conkeldurp are both very common bulky threats that much is true. However going back to the 2nd argument for a second you dont know how prominent these threats are. Neither do I but I wasn't stating them because I know how much usage they have. I was stating them because they are bulky and they're at the very least useful in this metagame.

3. That's not true in the slightest. I myself run semi-stall with Multiscale CBnite and it's the mvp of my team because of the support I give it. Also it really depends on what set dragonite is running to beat Deoxys-s. Granted without 2 dds there's no way bulkyddnite is taking on Deoxys if it has taken prior damage. However, mixednite and CBnite both run Extremespeed to take it on.

Unboosted ES can't OHKO, and we've already been through the failures of BulkyDDNite, and I refuse to repeat the same points I made over ten times just because it they have been forgotten. I can't argue with people if they choose to forget my arguments and force me to repeat them constantly. Bulky DDNIte takes too many turns to set up effectively and is outclassed by Mence. If you want my reasoning, check the earlier pages.

 

[Nanoswine]

Masterful, the fact that it is possible to name many bulky set-up sweepers, or just bulky attackers in general just goes to show that the metagame is bulky. "Just because you can give me examples of bulky Pokemon doesn't mean the metagame's bulky" is a really shitty argument.

While bulk is really, really subjective, I have to agree that this metagame is relatively bulky. How many common bulky set-up sweepers can you name from Gen IV? Off the top of my head there's Gliscor, Gyarados, Suicune, and Metagross. In Gen V there is Gliscor, Gyarados, Conkeldurr, Reuniclus, Latias, Terakion, Virizion, Scrafty, Sigilyph, and Vulcarona. That's more than twice the amount in Gen IV.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Unboosted ES can't OHKO, and we've already been through the failures of BulkyDDNite, and I refuse to repeat the same points I made over ten times just because it they have been forgotten. I can't argue with people if they choose to forget my arguments and force me to repeat them constantly. Bulky DDNIte takes too many turns to set up effectively and is outclassed by Mence. If you want my reasoning, check the earlier pages.

I know that it doesn't ko but 252 CB Adamant Extremespeed Dragonite does 66.4% - 78.4% to min/min neutral Deoxys-S. Your Deoxys would be severely crippled just to take down 1 pokemon. You really wanna take that much just to take down dragonite? If so your team must be really Dragonite weak.

I'm not gonna bother arguing with you about BulkyDDnite because we're not gonna change our views on it. BulkyDDnite has the bulk to set up as much as it wants and therefore isnt outclassed by mence. That's my belief and weather or not you want to believe me is your choice. I wont respond to it either. However, I've been using BulkyDDnite sense before the set was actually suggested. I know quite a bit about it. Not saying you dont have expirience with it I'm saying have have alot of expirience with it.

 

[alexwolf]

i also agree that some top offensive threats are very bulky and that generally bulky offense is a very effective playstyle as of now.some of the harder pokes to stop are the bulky attackers that either abuse their good bulk and their speed or even typing to get clearly offensive boosts(terakion,landlos,doryuuzu,venusaur,dragonite,garchomp)or just increase their nice bulk with defense raisning stat up moves and become a pain to take down(volcarona,reuniclus,conkelldur,scrafty and more).

i think that generally the top offensive threats are way more bulky than those of 4th gen(lucario,infernape,starmie,flygon,jolteon,azelf and even salamence which isn't frail but in comparison to some bulky sweepers of this gen his bulk doesn't seems enough)

 

[PK Gaming]

Man why do people argue over pointless things? Instead of uselessly arguing, why not post something productive, like metagame shifts or custom movesets?

Edit: Cool, UT is now Dragonspiral Tower.

 

[StarmanXL]

I know people keep mentioning Trick Room Reuniclus as a great anti-metagame poke but I rarely ever see it on the ladder--or, for that matter, any other TR team other than my own. Of course I'm ranked rather low so I'm probably drawing from a shitty sample but you'd have thought it'd be a bit more popular especially with all sorts of shit like Speed Boost Blaziken and Excadrill runnin' around. I guess TR isn't really that great in the current metagame?

 

[Nanoswine]

TR Reuniclus shits on HO, CM Reuniclus shits on stall. HO just isn't as common as stall, so more people use CM Reuniclus because it has the power to break down walls that TR Reuniclus lacks.

 

[Lamppost]

I LOVE tr rankurusu. HO teams are much much more common than stall teams, so you think that you would see more tr ranks than cm ranks right? nope. Trick room is much easier to set up and has more raw power than cm. With latios roaming around it's easy to come in on a -2 latios and set up tr and sweep. Hazard support really help him/it. Rank doesn't have enough power to OHKO things like garchomp without sr and spikes. I think a +0 LO psychic does around 70-80% (someone calc this?). With SR on the field and a layer of spikes tr rank can be really devasting. It's also one of the best late game sweepers. Most people dont sacrifice latios early game because he's such a powerhouse, and we all know that latios is set-up bait for tr rank.

Sorry for rambling on...im bored.

 

[Benlisted]

I LOVE tr rankurusu. HO teams are much much more common than stall teams, so you think that you would see more tr ranks than cm ranks right? nope. Trick room is much easier to set up and has more raw power than cm. With latios roaming around it's easy to come in on a -2 latios and set up tr and sweep. Hazard support really help him/it. Rank doesn't have enough power to OHKO things like garchomp without sr and spikes. I think a +0 LO psychic does around 70-80% (someone calc this?). With SR on the field and a layer of spikes tr rank can be really devasting. It's also one of the best late game sweepers. Most people dont sacrifice latios early game because he's such a powerhouse, and we all know that latios is set-up bait for tr rank.

Though I can't see how TR has more immediate power than CM lol, I must agree that it is far, far more threatening to most non-stall teams. I personally dread Reuniclus TRing every time I see it, but it never does, fortunately. I suppose the amount of bulky sweepers in OU who can tank a hit and dish one back are the reason it isn't as common, as CM probably does better against them in general.

 

[masterful]

I know that it doesn't ko but 252 CB Adamant Extremespeed Dragonite does 66.4% - 78.4% to min/min neutral Deoxys-S. Your Deoxys would be severely crippled just to take down 1 pokemon. You really wanna take that much just to take down dragonite? If so your team must be really Dragonite weak.

I'm not gonna bother arguing with you about BulkyDDnite because we're not gonna change our views on it. BulkyDDnite has the bulk to set up as much as it wants and therefore isnt outclassed by mence. That's my belief and weather or not you want to believe me is your choice. I wont respond to it either. However, I've been using BulkyDDnite sense before the set was actually suggested. I know quite a bit about it. Not saying you don't have experience with it I'm saying have have a lot of experience with it.

1) You have to predict Deo-S to come in, first off, and I don't see too many Dragonites going straight for Extremespeed first off, especially since there are next to no revenge killer Deo's running around outside the higher rungs of the ladder.
2)Bulky DDNite requires Lefties, Roost and in most cases a SpD investment. This means your damage output will be so much lower that you will need to take even more turns to set up. Here's how an average bulky DDNite set-up goes (assuming SR, which isn't realy too much of a stretch):
-Dnite switches in, takes SR (75%), possibly takes damage (if switching on something like CB Terakion, will take over 25%)
If you switched in on nothing -Roost while opp switches out or attacks (possibly 100% if you got a good blind-switch match-up)
If you switched in on an attack -Roost while opp switches (likely under 100% if attack did over 25%, which is likely)
-Now you are either at 100% or slightly less, and facing down a poke that threatens you. You now have at most 1 turn to set-up while Multi-scale is active, and when you are carrying Lefties and running a low investment in attack (maybe), your damage output will be very low.

On the other hand, you could use something like DD Mence, who takes just one turn to set up, is still not easily revenged, as he resists all priority but Bullet Punch, is far faster, and can switch in on physical threats to take advantage of Intimidate. Albeit he will be at most 75% assuming SR, but that allows him 8 attacks, even when running Life Orb, and he is able to take out Nattorei without Steel Thorns recoil. Now which seems like a better option?

3) I don't see how you using the set first is at all relevant, as I myself have tried it for a few days, which is more than enough to determine something's viability in most cases.

 

[Lamppost]

Though I can't see how TR has more immediate power than CM lol, I must agree that it is far, far more threatening to most non-stall teams. I personally dread Reuniclus TRing every time I see it, but it never does, fortunately. I suppose the amount of bulky sweepers in OU who can tank a hit and dish one back are the reason it isn't as common, as CM probably does better against them in general.

It has more immediate power than CM because CM sets usually run max hp max def and a bold nature, while tr sets run max spa with a quiet nature. That means he has more spA immediately.

 

[Benlisted]

It has more immediate power than CM because CM sets usually run max hp max def and a bold nature, while tr sets run max spa with a quiet nature. That means he has more spA immediately.

Aha, fair enough. Having never used it before myself I forgot the Bold nature CM tends to use - and that also explains why my normal bulkyish counters are ripped a new one when Reuniclus TRs...

In any case I personally see very little true HO, which TR Reun loves so. There have been an increasing amount of RMTs based on HO though, so it seems viable this gen despite being rare at first, perhaps TR Reun will increase in usage if HO becomes popular?