np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[mien]

No manaphy either... I always had faith in the voters, but this time they've screwed up.

I cannot help but feel the voters pool is somewhat biased.

It's funny because many of the people who got 1450 used shit like subchomp + para or drizzle or smashpassing to begin with.

The vast majority of people dislike this metagame. Whether things are broken or not shouldn't really matter (even though Drizzle is almost undeniably OP).

@those telling me to copy a team and ladder.
My singular vote wouldn't have made a difference at all. Why would I want to spend my time not enjoying the poor state of a metagame just to have all of that time spent not matter at all? I'm sorry I like to enjoy competitive Pokemon and not force myself to a ladder so that I can obtain some political figure point where ultimately it wouldn't matter anyway.

I disagree. I will never use a whether team for I find them cheap, and winning by haring a cheap strategy doesn't give me the same satasfation as winning with a non-cheap non-whether team. That doesn't mean I shouldn't have chance to vote, or not participate in conversations. Being honorable doesn't make me a second class citizen.

See, this is the problem. I don't think that a majority of voters this round laddered and strived to get to the top. They just used a weather team, think weather is ok and then find themselves at the top, able to vote. What do they vote for? for their strategy to be uber? of course not.

ok this process blows. somebody fix it.

Echoing goofball. I'm extremely disappointed with the lack of basic logic and common sense displayed by the voters. This goes for UU and LC as well. Something needs to change before this hole you have dug us into gets even deeper.

^ this all the way. I still am unable to believe that Drizzle stayed.

Can't agree with this more. Can't see how just random people (albeit good players) decide how a pokemon will be used for everyone.

This round's bans were epically disappointing. We spent an entire round... just to ban Garchomp. On top of that, Latios and Deoxys-S lost their suspect status. How the hell did they go from over 50% to that abysmal percentage they just got?

For the love of god bring back the council! I've read the nomination sentences/paragraphs from some of the "qualified" voters and...a lot of them are just so biased and ill-informed. I gave them some credit that even though a good chunk of them run copy & paste teams (I've probably fought everyone on the ladder now), it has to take some skill to get that high on the ladder, but after this extremely disappointing round, I am just so ready for the Smogon Council to make a come-back.

I'd MUCH rather have a group of 20 or so people that know exactly what the hell they're talking about, and have proven it to us, making these decisions rather than 40 or 50 people with only half of them having any visible credibility outside of purely their ladder ranking.

I am just so disappointed by this round...

Can there be some rule against these kind of posts in the future? These posts filled with constant bitching don't add anything to this topic and quite honestly it is getting out of hand.

It has come to the point that i barely see anyone actually discussing the possible effects on the metagame by this vote, but instead whining about the suspect process and the knowledge of the voters.

For the record it used to be a rule back in D/P

Do not question the tiering of any Suspect that has gone through Stages 1 and 2 of the Suspect Test process. Besides the fact that all Suspects will be retested in Stage 3, weeks and weeks go into a respective Suspect's actual testing, and this grants those who qualify the fair right to vote on the Suspect. To think that your complaints are going to or should have any actual sway after this process is somewhat insulting to the community at large.
Please keep the intelligence level of your posts at a respectable level This may sound a little harsh, but it is necessary. Provide some thoughts and reactions in your posts. Simplistic replies to threads are neither necessary, nor acceptable. If you make a statement, back it up! Do not post arguments without backing, or you will feel the wrath of the moderators. We hate that. If you wish to contribute to discussions, you should read How to argue and start discussions by Tangerine first to prevent logical fallacies from happening.

 

[Lee]

mien's right - I'm going to start deleting those kind of posts in future. Lets get back on topic, ok?

And if you're so upset with the system then I suggest you make a thread dedicated to the discussion of it rather than hijacking this thread. But make sure it has some substance beyond ridiculous conspiracy theories.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Can there be some rule against these kind of posts in the future? These posts filled with constant bitching don't add anything to this topic and quite honestly it is getting out of hand.

It has come to the point that i barely see anyone actually discussing the possible effects on the metagame by this vote, but instead whining about the suspect process and the knowledge of the voters.

For the record it used to be a rule back in D/P

It's healthier for the metagame if everyone just adapts to what the higher-ups have said. Not satisfied with the vote? Go ladder yourself for the right to vote. End of story. Chompy banned? Get used to it, find alternatives to Chompy. Done. Excadrill not in auto-suspect? Stop whining and pack a priority user. There's a bunch, like Conkeldurr, NP Lucario and Hitmontop.

That said, with Drizzle still lurking around, Thundurus is going to be a huge threat this time. I'm not surprised if it will be banned in the next round. Tornadus is prolly only going to see serious use if Thundurbro is banned seeing as it doesn't have cool toys like Electric STAB, NP and T-Wave. Zapdos would also probably see a lot of rise if that happens too.

That said, I might as well go back to my crap attempts at laddering UU. >_>

 

[B-p]

I predict Landorus to rise in usage, replacing Chomp as the sand powerhouse. He's no longer trolled in the speed department by Chomp, plus one can tailor his HP to counter threats to their team (i.e. HP Fire or Ice). Scarf set will become more useful as I predict Volcrona to rise in usage now that Chomp (a check to it's QD set) is gone.

SpD Jirachi will continue to rise, with Chomp gone and Thundurus remaining as a potent threat. More Jirachi's will run T-wave now.

I don't expect Salamence to rise to the top of OU anytime soon, even with Chomp gone. It's wall-breaking set is slow, but I can see it's DD rising considerably. It still faces immense competition from Latios, bulky Dragonite, and even CB Hax.

Weather will be omni-present as usual. However, SS will dip slightly, and drizzle will rise with the use of Thundurus and Jirachi.

 

[alphatron]

A bit late to the party, but Whimsicott will never be faster tan thundurus. Unless, for some ridiculous reason, you're running a max speed whimsicott.

 

[Rosey Oak]

There are two sides to every argument Mein. Yes some people here including me have been upfront about our opinion regarding the decision to keep Drizzle in OU, and I'll agree at times it has gotten out of hand with the bitching, but on the whole both sides want what’s best for the Metagame.

However what you quoted Mein were all opinionated aspects and say nothing about why we want weather banned. Those who oppose weather have been presenting evidence as to why they think it is broken throughout this forum, however in a lot of situations they are just bluntly told to ladder if they want a say in the matter. Thus on some level maybe those who oppose weather feel like their opinions are being ignored solely due to the fact that they are not one of those rank 100 players. This is what angers them, not the fact that people have an opposing opinion, but the fact that those who oppose on the whole do not listen to what we have to say.

We don't mind if people think differently. It's just that those people who do not strive for an optimized winning potential shouldn't be participating in our discussions regarding tiers for achieving a competitive metagame.

If the 'majority of the community' felt that weather was broken, then the 'majority of the community' are also morons considering they couldn't reach a simple flat 1450 ranking.

I wasn't expecting 1 poke to deal with each weather at all. I was saying that 1 poke WOULDN'T deal with each weather.

....

Bread have you even read the previous posts?

This whole time I've been trying to say, Weather Wars forces you to use a limited amount of specific Pokemon and that there is no reliable way to counter to 'weather' (and all of its effects) as a whole without inducing your weather.

You don't need to carry 3 or 4 pokes to counter all weather...You need to run sand,or rain or,sun,or hail or a team with 3 pokes that deal effective with opposing weather...
see how many options there are???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


An agrument should work both ways correct?

If I where to to Latios is broken and list the reasons why, then someone who opposes my point of view would be able to tell me 'why it's not broken'?


Although the definition of the word 'broken' is opinion based, let us look at the basic understanding of it.

"A pokemon that is so centralizing that every team must either use it or use a pokemon specifically to counter it."

"I generally think of Broken as something that is unfair. Something that can't be reasonably dealt with, something that makes it too easy to win, something that can't be reasonably prepared for; etc."


Well we have all been going about this the wrong way, let us hear the other point of view so that we can gain a better insight into their opinion. Let us give them a fair chance to present their side of the story.


Why is 'Drizzle' not broken?

If it truly isn't broken then someone can easily make a case as to why it isn't whilst keeping in mind the general definition of the word 'broken'.

(Side Note: Then maybe we can finally come to some sort of understanding.)

 

[Ewil]

With this single ban on 8 candidates, only sand became a little weak then usual.
The meta still remains the same. the only thing to do is finding a substitute for chomp (Maybe Landorus).

 

[Tobes]

Again, Rosey Oak, this is not a democracy. It's a meritocracy. You're free to give your opinions in this thread. That's what it's for. But unless you earn the right, you do not get to have a say in the decision. And it's unacceptable for anyone to say that the system is broken or the voters made a mistake / are biased just because they disagree with the outcome of the vote.

By all means, I hold nothing against your opinion and that of the others who think Drizzle should be banned. It's just very annoying how that view has been presented as of late.

As for why I feel weather isn't broken, I simply do not see anything that is unreasonable to prepare for in the metagame. But again, just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Darusare]

I think Chomps replacement will cause a pretty significant shift
Ladorus may take his place but im not sure that it will be to the same success
this may topple t tar and even ferrothorn from one and two respectively
I think the stats may be a bit more spread out
And scizor may by default rise to the top
but honestly this is all guess work

 

[alphatron]

I personally believed that Landorus did a better job than Garchomp outside of sand veil hax. HP Ice kills gliscor. Skarm can't do a dang thing to Sand Power boosted +2 Stone Egde. Landorus does a fine job picking off pokemon outside of bronzong who would otherwise get in the way of Excadrill. He also resists conkeldurr's mach punch and is relatively bulky.

I think it's time I regained my interest in actually playing and made a proper sand team.

 

[Ewil]

Garchomp have the only issue of SV.
Lando have better speed and resistance.
Maybe the major used will be the SD+3 attack or can rise a yache berry version to totally "copy" Garchomp.

 

[Glen ^^]

I'm quite disappointed that Garchomp went to ubers again, he brought more positive stuff than negative.

My predictions:

I expect to see less haxjirachi (BAN ME PLEASE)ry without Garchomp to abuse it. Paralysis just for the sake of it is counter productive, as some stuff are better afflicted with other status.

CM Lati@s sweeps will be easier to pull off without having to worry about Scarfchomp. I fear this will end up sending them to ubers, too.

Clear skies teams doesn't have a generic counter to Sandstream anymore. Landorus doesn't have the cool bulk and Sandveil that Garchomp had to abuse the enemy's own weather, but I hope he works.

Tornadus can now drop Hidden Power Ice forever and run an extra support move like Tailwind or U-Turn. I'm actually loving this, aside from hitting Garchomp, HP Ice was pretty useless on him.
This will also make him even better than Thundurus, who depends on Hidden Power Ice to hit Grounds and possibly make the latter fall into usage, hopefully keeping him into OU next round.

Flygon will shine once again. The guy switches in and out like nobody else. With Toxic Spikes support I expect him to be an awesome team player for Sandstream stall teams.

 

[Matthew]

Gen, I don't have a problem with weather itself. You can see my opinion of it in that second paragraph I wrote about weather in the previous post. On their own, they do nothing but inject variety into the metagame! What I don't like about permanent weather is that it kinda makes non-weather not viable. Non-weather teams can never remove the opponent's beneficial weather, short of something ridiculous like double-weather Chansey, and as such are always at a severe disadvantage to any weather-abusing team because the rewards for abusing weather are so powerful in BW. (Hell, rain almost got banned in Gen 4 UU even without Drizzle.) In the past, where you had to use moves for temporary weather, it was possible to fight back because you could always just stall and run the weather out but you can't do that with the abilities. It just makes the game unduly revolve around the four (five) permanent weather producers, as even if you're not abusing weather you need to be able to remove the opponent's. That's actually what I meant in my previous post about how a weather-less metagame would probably be more balanced.

Right, I understand that you need quite a different mentality than you do last gen, and I kinda feel like people think that 5th gen should be like 4th gen who people tried to make like ADV. It doesn't really matter if non-weather teams can remove the opponent's weather, that's their own choice for not running Hippo/Tar/Ninetails/Politoed/Snow, but it's hardly a huge disadvantage. I've made several good teams that don't have a weather inducer; do my weather teams have a better win / loss ratio? yeah. But do my non-weather teams have a pretty good one? yeah.

And it's pretty funny to abuse Swift Swim pokemon when your opponent is using Drizzle -- but that is really just a quip that I personally like!

 

[mien]

There are two sides to every argument Mein. Yes some people here including me have been upfront about our opinion regarding the decision to keep Drizzle in OU, and I'll agree at times it has gotten out of hand with the bitching, but on the whole both sides want what’s best for the Metagame

My post wasn't addressing the argument regarding weather in particular. Only the considerable amount of disrespect given towards those who voted and the hard work and thought that the Smogon Staff put behind the suspect process.

 

[Blackdragonking]

Despite losing chomp, I don't predict an enormous shift in the metagame.

For the most part, the votes have tended to enforce the status quo unless something is so overwhelmingly powerful that everyone hates it like Skymin or Blaziken or Garchomp. I have my doubts people will even remember they wanted to get rid of Thunderous next round, so forgive me if I don't really think his suspect status is that big a deal.

Landorus will probably see a rise in popularity, but beyond that, I don't think a round where the only thing that died was Garhomp is going to be too terribly different aside from people finally letting the Sand Veil thing go.

 

[Meru]

Originally Posted by Fat PO Statistics - May 2011

1 | Tyranitar | 119711 | 21.8169%
2 | Ferrothorn | 117960 | 21.4978%
4 | Scizor | 107394 | 19.5722%
11 | Jirachi | 65026 | 11.8507%
23 | Blissey | 40129 | 7.3134%
56 | Chansey | 17288 | 3.1507 %

Notice anything special about all of the Latios checks? They were all pretty much set-up bait for Blaziken. When Blaziken left, it became harder to punish someone for trying to check your Latios.

This may account for why Latios didn't receive a consecutive majority.

 

[November Blue]

I'm so relieved that thundurus stayed. So fucking relieved.

I want to apologize to the voters for the awful post I made last time. You haven't failed us at all. The pokemon vote was perfect (when is it not?) And after having some time to think about it, I believe that keeping drizzle is the right thing to do at this point in time. I'm keeping an open mind about it, and as this round has shown, there are a few aspects of drizzle that still need to be examined. I feel that another complex ban might be the best course of action rather than banning select pokemon.

Deo-s, latios and excadrill were voted OU again. Does anyone else think that we should implement some kind of double/triple jeopardy rule that awards immunity to those voted OU twice or more? It would be voided if something significant changed obviously.

At first I was kinda ambivalent about garchomp. Ho hum, I never used it, never had a problem with it. The implications hit me earlier today though. Landorus would probably fill his shoes. Terrakion usage might rise as well. Haxorus is interesting though. Recently I've noticed that the speed tiers seem to be dropping. Base 100s aren't seeing as much use, and the metagame appears to be centralizing around the base 95ish tier (284-295) One of the main sweeper benchmarks is now 289. Haxorus now outspeeds a large pile of the metagame (unscarved) And may see popularity as the new garchomp dragon. (you know what I mean right?)

The base 100 tier seems to be less and less relevant. It seems like there's a huge gap at 295 that goes all the way up to 346/350.

Echoing goofball. I'm extremely disappointed with the lack of basic logic and common sense displayed by the voters.

I really don't know how to reply to this. I'm calling you out though Snunch. This is one of the worst posts in the entire thread (within reason of course.)

SO if that really is in my crazy topsy-turvy world then yeah can we please stop nominating Excadrill

he way I see it Thundurus is a very valuable support pokemon, Prankster Taunt and not to mention Thunder Wave are so God-damn valuable it's hard to get over. The amount of times Prankster Thunder Wave has saved my life in a battle shouldn't even be a number someone can comprehend, but believe you me, it does exist. But I think that Thundurus' typing, power, and ability to support a team is something that the metagame needs, more over than what people need. Back in 4th gen you set-up your sweeper and it was game over. Bar the random Choice Scarf user that would KO you, getting your sweeper set up (love you SD Luke), was the end-all-be-all. The great thing about Thundurus is that not only can it take a hit effectively, but it can stop that game-ending sweep with its ability to paralyze. In all my experiences with Thundurus it wasn't the Nasty Plot set that won me games, it was always sets that carried Taunt or Thunder Wave, perhaps due to my playstyle, but Thundurus really puts a team support that I think is really necessary into the metagame.

The amount of bashing the voters in this thread is sad though -- not something that lightens the soul.

Agreeing with all of this, especially Thundurus. I always find his support sweeper sets much more valuable than the stockstandard plot sweeper. Volt switch / Grass knot / Taunt / Thunder wave with lefties or sash runs rings around everything.

I want to ask you all this: How exactly is thundurus broken??

Sure, he can do lots of awesome stuff. He can't do it all at once though i.e. there is no flagship "answer to everything" set that can be cited as the main culprit.

As Gen. Empoleon has stated, Thundurus holds a valuable and beneficial niche in the metagame as one of the premier pranksters. The ability to hold sweepers in check with a single move benefits certain playstyles greatly. I think that he's just the current hype like reuniclus and ferrothorn were. Hopefully this will die down soon.

 

[Raikaria]

Clear skies teams doesn't have a generic counter to Sandstream anymore. Landorus doesn't have the cool bulk and Sandveil that Garchomp had to abuse the enemy's own weather, but I hope he works.

Azumarill OHKO's Tyranitar, Landlos Terrakion and Excadrill. The latter three with Aqua Jet.

So much for no counter, one pokemon tears all the abusers and the inducer apart.

Unless Sand starts running Hippowdon, but even he dislikes taking two CB Waterfalls.

Best of all, the all too common Ferrothorn Sand tends to carry to handle Water attacks is also OHKO'ed unless it is almost purely physically defensive.

 

[jas61292]

A bit late to the party, but Whimsicott will never be faster tan thundurus. Unless, for some ridiculous reason, you're running a max speed whimsicott.

I just want to say, while it is true that most Whimsicott do not run max speed, it CAN run max speed, so if you fail to Taunt a Thundurus before it can NP because of that, then you only have yourself to blame.

 

[chrisrandom9]

I personally believed that Landorus did a better job than Garchomp outside of sand veil hax. HP Ice kills gliscor. Skarm can't do a dang thing to Sand Power boosted +2 Stone Egde. Landorus does a fine job picking off pokemon outside of bronzong who would otherwise get in the way of Excadrill. He also resists conkeldurr's mach punch and is relatively bulky.

I think it's time I regained my interest in actually playing and made a proper sand team.

HP Ice doesn't kill Gliscor though, not from full health and then Gliscor KOs back with Ice Fang

 

[JSND]

from my experience HP ice OHKo. Gliscor spent in Defense while Landorus while it might spent EV or not, he have 115 base SpA

 

[Matthew]

A naive Landlos with 0 EVs in Special Attack and with Leftovers deals 82.5% - 97.2% to the standard 252 / 0 Gliscor with Hidden Power Ice. That's a highly likely change of OHKOing with SR damage taken into account. But if you didn't even want to risk the chance of not OHKOing Gliscor running Life Orb makes Landlos deal: 106.2% - 125.4%

So, yeah, running HP Ice is a really good idea since it does OHKO Gliscor.

 

[chrisrandom9]

from my experience HP ice OHKo. Gliscor spent in Defense while Landorus while it might spent EV or not, he have 115 base SpA

Scarf Landorus 4 SpA HP Ice vs Gliscor 252/0 does 82.5% - 97.2%

Correct me if I'm wrong

EDIT: Ninja'd :( Damn you Gen

Although I will say they often have protect

 

[JSND]

spent some ev might not help

I forget i usualy use LO, my bad

 

[November Blue]

HP Ice doesn't kill Gliscor though, not from full health and then Gliscor KOs back with Ice Fang

You're thinking of mienshao, who needs 96 special attack EVs to guarantee the KO.

.... or was it 92?