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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

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Actually, Tyranitar being mentioned raises an interesting point.
How many people seriously think Tyranitar is worth banning? Because, as far as I can tell, it's sitting in the same boat as Reuniclus. You need to always keep it in mind when building a team, you need to hold back a counter to it if you see it in Team Preview, and if it gets the right support/setup, it can quite easily sweep a whole team. The same applies to a fair few Pokemon - Garchomp, Scizor, Deoxys-S, Lati@s (dammit, Smogon, stop trying to turn that into an e-mail address), Mew, the legendary Pixies... - and the point that a few people are trying to make here is that is what a metagame is. You can keep trying to ban something that's capable of sweeping, but you'll end up with a constantly changing metagame where things are constantly shifting around depending on how many of their counters have been banned. Alternatively, you can stick with a metagame where certain Pokemon are powerful and need to be seriously considered when team-building, but those counters still exist and are good in their own rights. (Team Preview just adds to this by letting you know what you need to keep healthy.)

Weather is a slightly more interesting problem, since it barely even relies on prediction - no matter how well you predict the opponent, you can still be screwed over by a good Rain team. I think I'd need to seriously test things before coming to a verdict on that.
 
Considering T-tar as a suspect seems perfectly fine but anytime anyone mentions it, its akin to speaking bad of a god within a place of worship. But no matter how you look at it, infinite weather in general is a unfair advantage furthermore with T-tar being such a dominating prescence even without Sand in play. I mean you have weather which takes effort to get into play and keep it up, even then weather was the dominating playstyle within Gen 4 UU.

On the other hand as many will point out neither Hippowdon or T-tar are inherently broken in themselves with very easy checks. It might be a consideration and topic of discussion whenever their DW versions are released but at the moment banning them completely lets some things like Latios run absolutely rampant (as if it already isn't) and has huge consequences.
 
I don't really see Tyranitar as a suspect. O.k, fine it has been dominant for 3 Gens in a row, so was Gengar ffs. Its still no reason to start up a ban on it. Ignoring the fact that it keeps a few key threats in check I just don't see how it is broken. Its not the same as Reuniclus which has much more specialised counters, Tyranitar has easily exploitable weaknesses and (judging from the usage statistics) many teams have a fair few pokemon that can crush it. Tyranitar does not really sweep teams and im not really seeing any logical arguments as to why it deserves suspect status.

Granted, thanks to Excadrill and an influx of fighters increasing the number of Gliscor in the Tyranitar now runs Ice Beam and Fire Blast a bit more which makes finding a "counter" for it slightly more difficult but seriously, its very checkable.

Shrang (sorry to call you out but) I am appalled at your reasons for declaring it a suspect. "Oh dear it took my +4 Celebis Giga Drain its too specially bulky lets ban it". Big Whoop. I can name many other examples of pokemo nthat can take special attacks quite well (Latias, Blissey and Virizion being just 2 examples), are you going to start trying to ban those as well??? Not to mention "oh this pokemon takes special attacks too well" is fucking shocking logic for a ban.

You argue that it provides support but what kind? MixTar functions as a LURE to defeat common switchs to Tyranitar. FFS its a Lure and the set is only experiencing such high usage due to the increase of shit that was COUNTERING Tyranitar. Should HP Ice Excadrill be banned because it removes Gliscor from the game which might open you up to a SD Landorus sweep?

The ONLY case I can see for a T-Tar ban is because it creates sandstorm in which case its a different issue entirely. Seriously can somebody actually provide a solid reason for trying to start a ban on Tyranitar besides the "it creates Sandstorm, reason"?
 
I've got to say, that in my opinion, the only way to end all of this is to just directly ban Drizzle. It is very difficult to get to the top of the ladder without a weather, and the only reason to run a weather other than Rain is to try to counter rain itself, while abusing some of the threats that come with the other weathers such as Venusaur and Excadrill. Rain is just ridiculously overpowered; with Hurricane from Tornadobro, Thunder from Thunderbro and Hydro Pump from just about any water-type doing shit loads of damage, we have to rid the metagame of Drizzle. After that, we can talk about Sun and Sandstorm, as I can definitely see a metagame without Rain being dominated by Drought and Sand Stream.
 
I don't really see Tyranitar as a suspect. O.k, fine it has been dominant for 3 Gens in a row, so was Gengar ffs. Its still no reason to start up a ban on it. Ignoring the fact that it keeps a few key threats in check I just don't see how it is broken. Its not the same as Reuniclus which has much more specialised counters, Tyranitar has easily exploitable weaknesses and (judging from the usage statistics) many teams have a fair few pokemon that can crush it. Tyranitar does not really sweep teams and im not really seeing any logical arguments as to why it deserves suspect status.

Granted, thanks to Excadrill and an influx of fighters increasing the number of Gliscor in the Tyranitar now runs Ice Beam and Fire Blast a bit more which makes finding a "counter" for it slightly more difficult but seriously, its very checkable.

Shrang (sorry to call you out but) I am appalled at your reasons for declaring it a suspect. "Oh dear it took my +4 Celebis Giga Drain its too specially bulky lets ban it". Big Whoop. I can name many other examples of pokemo nthat can take special attacks quite well (Latias, Blissey and Virizion being just 2 examples), are you going to start trying to ban those as well??? Not to mention "oh this pokemon takes special attacks too well" is fucking shocking logic for a ban.

You argue that it provides support but what kind? MixTar functions as a LURE to defeat common switchs to Tyranitar. FFS its a Lure and the set is only experiencing such high usage due to the increase of shit that was COUNTERING Tyranitar. Should HP Ice Excadrill be banned because it removes Gliscor from the game which might open you up to a SD Landorus sweep?

The ONLY case I can see for a T-Tar ban is because it creates sandstorm in which case its a different issue entirely. Seriously can somebody actually provide a solid reason for trying to start a ban on Tyranitar besides the "it creates Sandstorm, reason"?

i think what he was trying to say was its bulky as all hell
and without ss it wouldnt be
and not only is he bulky
hes powerful as well
and not even all that slow
well hes not fast
but he haxily puts himself in front of swampert empoleon and anything else in 60
 
Rain is just such a better weather because it's boosts are just so much better than the other weather boosts

Rain boosts water types which is really key since swift swimmers are generally water types who also get their stab boosted

it makes Hurricane and Thunder never miss and turns weather ball into a effectively 150 BP water move (which means event Raikou can hammer most ground types who would block thunder with a effectively stab water move)

it also activates rain dish and dry skin's HP healing.

and makes fire moves do half damage with is a god send for fire weak pokes.

in comparison the other weathers don't do as much.

Sun only boosts the speed of grass types with Chlorophyll who take increased damage from the boosted fire moves and only other move that Sun boosts is making Growth +2 attacking stats instead of +1.

sun while it weaken water moves most of the mons weak to water still take way too much damage from them.

solar power costs HP in the sun making it those who have that on a timer to sweep.

Sun also has the problem of Ninetales being a frail SR weak pokemon.

Sand is arguably the closest thing to water in terms of useful powerful boosts

and Sand is also special in that it has 2 OU capable starters for it.

it gives all rock types a 1.5x boost to special defense which effectively makes t-tar have a much higher base special defense when it comes in.

Sand veil rush and power are all decent abilitys that get triggered by sand.


Hail...just sucks.

the only thing hail does is just make blizzard never miss and trigger the hail version of rain dish (ice body) and snow cloak.

while abomasnow can hit all of the other weather starters for SE damage it's slower than all of them except hippodon and all of them except politoed (who can just use hidden power if it wants to) can hit it with it's many weaknesses.
 
Banning Sandstream is almost like trying to ban Stealth Rock. Never gonna happen. It's basically "Because of Sandstorm, my Infernape can only sweep for 7 turns instead of 10" Sandstream seems like more than it really is. It only became an issue once Sand Rush showed up. But outside of Sand Throw and Sand Power, yeah, it makes Tyranitar a prick because of the Sp.Def boost, but...that's about all it does aside from breaking Focus Sashes. And if you're using Focus Sash in the first place, everyone hates you.

As someone that lives & dies by Drought this Gen, I can safely say that, Sun won't be THAT dominate if Drizzle gets banned. Even if Excadrill gets the shaft too, it still gets shut down by *insert dragon here.* SkarmBliss walls "herp-a-derp 5 Chlorophyll + Ninetales" SlowBliss walls everything else that's not Darmanitan. That and GOD forbid anything runs Stun Spore or Thunder Wave. Not to mention Tyranitar, Hippowdon, & Jabba can change the weather at any time and can ruin Ninetales' SR weak life with Pursuit, EQ, or Roar.

But yeah. Drizzle can't possibly escape a ban AGAIN. People will move to Drought only to realize how it's nowhere near as easy to run as Drizzle and then we will see Excadrill. Excadrill EVERYWHERE.
 
Ttar is actualy one of the most controversial pokemon even in gen 4, so much that some people that disagree at chompie ban say ttar is more broken instead. But i dont think its broken despite being a bit agree at it making a good suspect for some reason.

s for broken mon, i already said over and over that nothing is really broken in current meta for me. Only annoying. And by annoying i mean Torna"DracoMeteorSwiftSwim"Hurricanedus
 
Why run weather when you can run counter-weather? Honestly if people are pissed because there is something dominating this metagame, you run the counter to it dont you? And weather has plent of counters plenty. Its not like 4th Gen Garchomp which forced you to run Weavile. Weather counters itself, so use something that shuts down sun and rain teams, which is Sand.
Its impossible to make a metagame where everything is equal and nothing is dominating, if that were so UU wouldnt exist. Its not hard, find a counter, there is Cloud Nine Lickylicky, hell Ferrothorn pisses on Rain teams back to front, Tyranitar destroys Sun teams and Gliscor destroys Sand teams. So whats the golden combination to counter weather?
Gliscor, Tyranitar and Ferrothorn. Well only the most common rulers of weather, but that is what the discussion is about, what is dominating.
 
As another person who lives and dies by drought this gen, I can safely say that skarmbliss doesn't stop drought as much as you say it does. Victreebel rips through both skarmbliss and slowbliss. SubGrowth tangrowth (the only good chlorotangrowth in my eyes) laughs at blissey with a primarily special set while still killing off skarm. Infernape, shiftry, and taunt houndoom of all things stop it too. Even if you're running the lousy, 5 chlorophyll + ninetales gimmick, yes you will still lose every game, but you shouldn't be losing to skarmbliss of all things.

In my eyes, tyranitar is the perfect pokemon. Slow as helll and has several weaknesses, yet dominant ever since his birth. No way in hell is he good enough to get banned, he's just good enough to be used everywhere and can do pretty much anything, Foresty mentioned that removing him would allow Latios to run rampant. I disagree. After all, we still have Metagross, Jirachi, etc. Sure tyranitar does it better than all of them, but still. He effectively replaced Blissey as the special wall of choice this generation. Pursuit removes the ability to simply switch out of him, he can set up stealth rock with ease while carrying fire blast for ferrothorn and forretress. He's just plain outstanding, and it doesn't make him broken if he invalidates relatively decent pokemon from playing the game (He's the real reason I have never touched moltres in OU.)

Funny thing I've noticed. If tyranitar can beat a pokemon, then it isn't uber because he can beat it. If he can't. Looking at what has been sent off to ubers so far, I find it hard to disagree with this statement. In any case, I'm rambling. Tyranitar is insanely good, and most of us would want him gone so that matches would start looking less stale, but that is never going to happen and he doesn't deserve uber status at all.

And my bad on the rain thing. Forgot about the STAB boost. >_>
 
*NOTE: LONG POST AHEAD*

I don't really see Tyranitar as a suspect. O.k, fine it has been dominant for 3 Gens in a row, so was Gengar ffs. Its still no reason to start up a ban on it. Ignoring the fact that it keeps a few key threats in check I just don't see how it is broken. Its not the same as Reuniclus which has much more specialised counters, Tyranitar has easily exploitable weaknesses and (judging from the usage statistics) many teams have a fair few pokemon that can crush it. Tyranitar does not really sweep teams and im not really seeing any logical arguments as to why it deserves suspect status.

Granted, thanks to Excadrill and an influx of fighters increasing the number of Gliscor in the Tyranitar now runs Ice Beam and Fire Blast a bit more which makes finding a "counter" for it slightly more difficult but seriously, its very checkable.

Shrang (sorry to call you out but) I am appalled at your reasons for declaring it a suspect. "Oh dear it took my +4 Celebis Giga Drain its too specially bulky lets ban it". Big Whoop. I can name many other examples of pokemo nthat can take special attacks quite well (Latias, Blissey and Virizion being just 2 examples), are you going to start trying to ban those as well??? Not to mention "oh this pokemon takes special attacks too well" is fucking shocking logic for a ban.

You argue that it provides support but what kind? MixTar functions as a LURE to defeat common switchs to Tyranitar. FFS its a Lure and the set is only experiencing such high usage due to the increase of shit that was COUNTERING Tyranitar. Should HP Ice Excadrill be banned because it removes Gliscor from the game which might open you up to a SD Landorus sweep?

The ONLY case I can see for a T-Tar ban is because it creates sandstorm in which case its a different issue entirely. Seriously can somebody actually provide a solid reason for trying to start a ban on Tyranitar besides the "it creates Sandstorm, reason"?

Alright, fine. If you want me to actually provide reasons, I'll go ahead and do it. I was just throwing it out there just before just to gauge what other people may think. No need to get so touchy =P.

So, let's start with a comparison of Tyranitar with another Pokemon who is obviously Uber: Ho-Oh. Aside from obvious differences, these two Pokemon can play somewhat similar roles, and that those are that of special tanks that can hit really hard. With the Sandstorm boost, a 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe Adamant (not that anyone runs that spread, but I'm just using this to highlight an example), Tyranitar's stats are 404 HP / 403 Atk / 256 Def / 203 SpA / 354 SpD / 159 Spe. Using a very similar spread (248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe Adamant for the odd HP number, which is standard in Ubers, give or take some speed), Ho-Oh gets 415 HP / 394 Atk / 216 Def / 230 SpA / 344 SpD / 218 Spe. We will ignore SpA in our comparisons for obvious reasons. Looking at the stat spreads alone, the only real stat that Ho-Oh has an advantage in is Speed, and with minimal investment, we know that she won't be outspeeding anything significant any time soon anyway. We can see that Tyranitar not only takes hits better (from both sides of the spectrum), but also hits harder (apart from Brave Bird) than our Uber friend.

So what makes Ho-Oh better than Tyranitar? Well, it has (arguably) better STABs and resistances, a broken-ass move in Sacred Fire and reliable recovery. Okay, but Tyranitar has no crippling 4x weakness to Stealth Rock (which almost completely cancels out reliable recovery) and a trapping move in Pursuit (which I will bring up in more detail in a minute). Both fit the "special tank" very well, Ho-Oh can take bullshit like +4 Dark Pulse from Darkrai, while Tyranitar can take stuff like +1 Aura Sphere (4x WEAK) from Mewtwo and both OHKO in return.

About the "other special sponges", standard Calm Blissey takes 54.60% - 64.72% from an 897 SpA using a super-effective STAB Base 75 Power attack. Latias takes 127.08% - 150.00% using a 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe Timid spread (Speed is needed otherwise Latias isn't that useful). The difference is that Blissey usually can't do much back to the opponent, Latias is OHKOed, while Tyranitar can take the attack and OHKO in return (in Celebi's case)

Now, onto why I think Tyranitar fits the old "Support Characteristic". The best card in its deck is obviously Pursuit. While most people already know how good it is, I believe on Tyranitar it is too good. With Pursuit, it can easily wipe *insert slightly frail or Dark-weak special attacker that can't use a Fighting attack* off the map in a pinch while taking virtually nothing from the opponent's attack. Here's a list of very viable Pursuit susceptible Pokemon that can't do much to Tyranitar, next to them a list of sweepers/attackers that can easily thrive with their removal:

* - Depends on circumstances

Psychics:
-Latias (Virizion, Garchomp, Rotom-A, Suicune, Infernape, Terakion*, Mienshao, Ninetales, Celebi, Mew*, Kyurem*, Lilligant, Nidoking, Jolteon*, etc)
-Latios (See Latias)
-Celebi (debatable) (Breloom, Suicune, *sigh* you get my point)
-Slowbro (Wobb support needed, so I guess you can argue against Wobb here)
-Xatu
-Deoxys-D/S
-Espeon
-Victini (debatable)
-Reuniclus (Wobb support usually needed, too)
-Starmie (debatable)

Ghosts:
-Gengar (debatable)
-Dusclops (Again, may need Wobb support)
-Jellicent (Fast Tyranitars put Jellicent in a very awkward position)
-Chandelure

General special attackers and other Pokemon that can be Pursuited for the hell of it:
-Ninetales (debatable)
-Politoed (Scarf/Specs caught in the wrong move)
-Abomasnow (debatable)
-Jolteon
-Raikou
-Blissey
-Zapdos

Okay, I'm quite sure there are probably more Pokemon that get completely dicked by Pursuit, but I think you get my point. As you can see, say you remove your opponent's Latias, you already have a whole list of Pokemon that can sweep in their absence. Tyranitar is creating (and reasonably consistently, too) a condition for which another Pokemon can much more easily sweep from. If you remove their spin-blocker, well, if they're playing stall, they're virtually finished (unless you have no spinner or your spinner has died, I guess). If you successfully Pursuit Blissey (which isn't that hard, I've actually done it quite a lot of times), you have punched a huge hole in their special wall, in which something like NP Thundurus can easily come in and sweep.

So, up to now, I haven't even talked about Tyranitar bringing Sandstorm. While true, Sandstorm is not a big issue with Tyranitar setting it up, the problem is that with Tyranitar, Sand is so easy to keep up. It handily beats Ninetales (I mean hell, even with Will-O-Wisp Ninetales is losing most of the time), can Pursuit it only the way out to make sure it doesn't come back either. If you catch something like Specs/Scarf Politoed on Ice Beam or something like that (which you can bait into), you got yourself a near-dead Politoed. Even defensive sets need to watch out, unless you get a burn with Scald, Politoed isn't going to like taking on Tyranitar either. Abomasnow lacking Focus Punch are usually beaten quite handily, too. With those out of the way, sand teams will usually godstomp the opposing team. Another thing to note is that Sun/Rain/Hail can often share weaknesses with its weather inducer (although Rain is starting to steer away from that). While yes, Tyranitar also shares weaknesses, it can often get away with it simply on how fucking bulky it is (Water weakness? WTF is that?), great example is the +4 Celebi example I used (Grass weakness? WTF is that?).

One thing that was quite interesting last gen was Manaphy's banning. One big argument was that with ScarfTar support, it ripped through teams. However, this posed another question that was actually a very valid point and went unanswered: Should Manaphy be Uber for the Offensive Characteristic, or should Tyranitar be Uber for the Support Characteristic?

I'll probably think of more later, but that should be enough for you to think about.
 
I'm surprised that you didn't mention how Tyranitar is 3HKO'd by a specs latios surf. I find that fact important because latios would have been banned by the voters a long time ago if tyranitar could not stand up to him, even with the handful of counters and switch ins that latios has (Metagross, escavelier, and scizor still get the job done barring sun boosted hp fire).

He truly is great support. On PO a while back, I used a sun team with sandstream tyranitar as support. I was amazed when he was anything but detrimental to the team. He countered heatran. He tanked +1 and +2 Bug buzzes from Volcorona. He killed Blissey. He baited in and killed Gliscor with Ice beam before blaziken was banned. He set up stealth rock. He killed latios, allowing for easier sweeps with venusaur. Like, the only issue was him losing to garchomp. I'd still be using him if not for that fact.

Can't really argue against what you posted atm, shrang. Bt does removing things with pursuit really make tyranitar TOO good?
 
^ this. Yeah Ttar's pursuit really did make big differences in match despite being a big fodder afterwards. I dont find him to be broken tbh. Hes good but not ideally something that i see as broken(that might be cause my banning standard is always high currently)
 
I'm with you on the high banning standards, yeah. Tyranitar is, without a doubt, sickeningly good. Thing is, it's hitting one Pokemon for decent (but rarely OHKO) damage with Pursuit before being forced away again by something with a Fighting attack, Scizor or EQ. Tyranitar is one of those that's going to either slaughter whatever it's against or get slaughtered within seconds - there's no middle ground, no close matches.

I'm personally of the opinion that people need to adapt to a metagame more than vice-versa. If Tyranitar is causing that much of a problem, run something with Mach Punch. Pokemon become popular for their uses in the current meta - just look at Heatran in Gen4 OU - but that doesn't make them inherently broken. If something is easily countered (again in Gen4 OU: Scizor by Infernape/Heatran, or Heatran by EQ) then it is not broken, just very good.
And specific counters can sometimes have alternative uses anyways. Primeape as a lead in Gen4 Ubers is a prime example of this (pun unintended). It was used solely to counter Darkrai, yet had some major uses against the heavy Steel types roaming around - Low Kick was a brilliant attack against most of the metagame.

tl;dr: I'd rather see people changing their playstyles than banning anything that's threatening. It's only if something is able to get around its intended counters that I'd see it as needing banning (hi Drizzle!)
 
I'm surprised that you didn't mention how Tyranitar is 3HKO'd by a specs latios surf. I find that fact important because latios would have been banned by the voters a long time ago if tyranitar could not stand up to him, even with the handful of counters and switch ins that latios has (Metagross, escavelier, and scizor still get the job done barring sun boosted hp fire).

He truly is great support. On PO a while back, I used a sun team with sandstream tyranitar as support. I was amazed when he was anything but detrimental to the team. He countered heatran. He tanked +1 and +2 Bug buzzes from Volcorona. He killed Blissey. He baited in and killed Gliscor with Ice beam before blaziken was banned. He set up stealth rock. He killed latios, allowing for easier sweeps with venusaur. Like, the only issue was him losing to garchomp. I'd still be using him if not for that fact.

Can't really argue against what you posted atm, shrang. Bt does removing things with pursuit really make tyranitar TOO good?

Yeah well, there are other counters (although not as solid) to Latios as it is. While banning him MAY be going too far, I do think he deserves to be tested or at least voted on. Pursuiting things by itself is a strategy. However, Tyranitar makes it too easy. Stuff like Scizor will at the very least have to watch out for random HP Fires flying around. Tyranitar has a great chance of surviving two HP Fightings from LO Latios should SR not be up using full on investment and OHKO in return with Crunch (or Pursuit if Latios switches), which is just completely insane.
 
Oh wow.

Not only talking about banning Tyranitar, but comparing it to Ho-Oh.

This is why I don't play OU. Because it has devolved into people not wanting to deal with things and nominating them. Then they get banned because their nomination was "reasonable", hence the silliness that is banning Tyranitar.

I want the days back when this all was decided for us. Because the average Pokémon player is a moron.

Why do we even have these tests without statistics? imo this silliness of suspect test after suspect test without any solid statistics is simply silly. If you want to play Gen 4, GO PLAY GEN 4. Stop trying to tailor OU to whatever it is that you think the best metagame is. If OU is a weather based metagame, SO BE IT. Why not?

Did we tailor Generation 2 to not be completely stall based? Did we ban held items?

Did we tailor Generation 3 to be completely stall based? Did we ban Tyranitar, with his auto-sandstorm? Did we remove Skarmory and Blissey, the premier stalling duo of this generation, because they weren't what we were used to?

Did we change Generation 4 such that it was Generation 3? Was there an outcry over the Physical/Special split? Or did we take what we were given and roll with it?

Why, then, are we determined to change Generation 5 into Generation 4? Sure, Generation 4 evolved into what many consider one of the most balanced metagames. But if you want to play that, GO DO SO. Nobody is stopping you. But I for one would like to see an end to "I lost to this, ban it", or "I suck at team building and this beats my team, ban it".
 
If the thing making Tyranitar broken is its ability to easily remove obstacles threatening a sweep, then does that not also make Magnezone broken in a similar vein. Zone, with the correct set, it can remove just about any steel type in the game, offering incredible team support. The only steel that beats Magnezone is Heatran, but a 4x ground weakness makes him less effective at checking dragons, since anything physical can and will often carry Earthquake. Zone can also remove Ferrothorn for rain teams and the Sub/Charge Beam set basically nets 2 ko's from it. I'm not saying that either of them are or aren't broken, but if Tyranitar is considered broken under the Pursuit support it brings, I definately feels Magnezone ought to be tested too.
 
And by the same logic, almost anything with Shadow Tag/Arena Trap should also be banned because they provide support and allow you to kill off something that will otherwise prevent a sweep.
Yea-no. They're just revenge killers. If they're that big a problem, you shouldn't be relying on a single counter - your team should either have a number of answers or not care about the threat to begin with.
 
Foresty mentioned that removing him would allow Latios to run rampant. I disagree. After all, we still have Metagross, Jirachi, etc. Sure tyranitar does it better than all of them, but still. He effectively replaced Blissey as the special wall of choice this generation. Pursuit removes the ability to simply switch out of him
Well you're free to disagree but I'd like to point out, T-tar is the only guy who can switch in onto just about any attack of Latios and instantly kill it with Pursuit because of STAB as some may have pointed out.

Its surprising but even a 252 Adamant Escavalier barely does 80% to a fleeing non-defensive Latios. Key problem here is by extension Metagross is weaker and even less likely to kill and can take even less punishment and Jirachi simply just lets it run away which does not deal with the problem.

I do however thoroughly agree on the comment of T-tar being perfect since birth. The thing literally is perfect, its such a overbearing prescence and dangerous support being able to do nearly everything it'll forever be cream of the crop OU being able to remove obstacles instantly. However it has always had such blatant glaring weaknesses it'll somehow always forever escape any serious ban discussion unless you directly target its Sandstream ability, special defense boost which results from it and its fatal trapping ability.

If the thing making Tyranitar broken is its ability to easily remove obstacles threatening a sweep, then does that not also make Magnezone broken in a similar vein.
Magnezone is simply too specialized, after removing the steel then what? Its forced to run HP Fire to achieve that leaving it walled all day long by most grounds and is free switch in for most dragons.

And by the same logic, almost anything with Shadow Tag/Arena Trap should also be banned because they provide support and allow you to kill off something that will otherwise prevent a sweep.
Wobbuffet is still the only legal Shadow Tag user and you deserve the bloody kill if you somehow got Dugtrio or Trapinch in unscathed.
 
Yeah well, there are other counters (although not as solid) to Latios as it is. While banning him MAY be going too far, I do think he deserves to be tested or at least voted on. Pursuiting things by itself is a strategy. However, Tyranitar makes it too easy. Stuff like Scizor will at the very least have to watch out for random HP Fires flying around. Tyranitar has a great chance of surviving two HP Fightings from LO Latios should SR not be up using full on investment and OHKO in return with Crunch (or Pursuit if Latios switches), which is just completely insane.

Perhaps him making it this easy simply means that Tyranitar is the best and most reliable pokemon for such a job. Even then, there are ways to play around this. My friend ran ran into a LO Magic Bounce espeon on PO a few months ago and smugly switched in tyranitar to use pursuit and kill it off. Espeon used sunny day on the switch and proceeded to OHKO Tyranitar after rocks with a LO hidden power fighting. This is just an example, but it goes to show that he can be played around without resorting to ridiculous methods.

Still sticking to my guns on the idea that tyranitar is simply perfect. Extremely good and effective at several roles, but not good enough to dominate the metagame. I dunno about the support characteristic. I mean, it's never made any sense to me anyway. Just look at Deoxys-defense form. He was uber because of that?

If the thing making Tyranitar broken is its ability to easily remove obstacles threatening a sweep, then does that not also make Magnezone broken in a similar vein.​

Magnezone offers next to nothing to most teams and loses to most of the steel types he wants to trap. Rain won't care if you trap ferrothorn. Sub and charge beam up to +6 as they get up three layers of spikes and SR. Then cry in despair when Rotom-W or Lanturn comes in afterwards. Like dugtrio, he finds it hard to switch into many steel types. With Skarmory being so rare now and Thunderpulse Jirachi smacking Magnezone into the ground, I don't see much use for him. Specially defensive Scizor is a craptacular set, so Magnezone can handle that with ease. If people are still running that, then I guess he can see some use.

Comparing him to Tyranitar though? Nope. He traps specific things, and only those specific things.

Why, then, are we determined to change Generation 5 into Generation 4?

I think it's the fact that the numerous amount of viable threats in total is far too many to cover all at once by using one team. As much as you try to prepare for one thing, there will always be something else your team may be disadvantaged against, and really, you just don't have the room to worry about dedicating a move/team slot because you're already worried about everything else. I can see people being annoyed when about this, so it would make sense to them to get rid of the bigger threats so that there is less to worry about, making it possible to build a team that counters everything viable. This...is not something I agree with though.

Oh hey, another reason why tyranitar is good. With just one team slot, he manages to counter so much.

Edit @ Foresty: 252 Choice Band Adamant Escavelier to fleeing 4 Hp Latios: 117.9% - 139.1%

Erm, what? I tested this with 0 Evs for Escavelier and he does 94% minimum even then.
 
If the thing making Tyranitar broken is its ability to easily remove obstacles threatening a sweep, then does that not also make Magnezone broken in a similar vein. Zone, with the correct set, it can remove just about any steel type in the game, offering incredible team support. The only steel that beats Magnezone is Heatran, but a 4x ground weakness makes him less effective at checking dragons, since anything physical can and will often carry Earthquake. Zone can also remove Ferrothorn for rain teams and the Sub/Charge Beam set basically nets 2 ko's from it. I'm not saying that either of them are or aren't broken, but if Tyranitar is considered broken under the Pursuit support it brings, I definately feels Magnezone ought to be tested too.

no
magnezone is not really a problem
because hes nearly useless if youre not running any of those sets
and if you ban magnezone everyone will run magneton
(which is better for sub magnet rise sice hes faster than scizor)
 
LOL at people still sticking by the "you must be able to counter everything".

The idea of using counters to cover everything died in 4th gen.

You must be able to check things. If you are weak to one thing, you deserve to lose. That means you made an oversight in team building. You don't ban something, you get better. Team building is the single most important part of the game. If you fail at that, you have lost the match before it even begins. If your team is Ice weak, do you go and argue that Ice moves should be banned? NO! You fix your team so it is no longer beaten by Ice moves. Remember 4th gen? For a while there was a surge of teams with 3, 4, even 6 dragons. I got quite high on the ladder using hail. Did these people declare hail bannable so they could continue using their teams? No, they FIXED THEM.

Scizor gets Bullet Punch. Suddenly we have what is easily the best priority attacker in the game. Teams start getting wasted by it. Do we ban it? NO! People learn to deal with it, find that it is, in fact, checked by things.

Manaphy gets dropped into OU for a suspect test. Suddenly the entire metagame is basically use Manaphy or lose, take out your opponent's Manaphy before they take out yours. Do we ban it? HELL YES. Because the entire metagame is in a state of "use Manaphy or lose". What's the best check for Manaphy? Why, Manaphy of course.
 
SupremeDirt knows his shit.

I can also see why you only play in Ubers.

Comparing Tyranitar to Ho-Oh is ridiculous. Considering Tyranitar for suspect is equally ridiculous. Tyranitar is not required by players and team builders to be used in order to win on the ladder. He offers many things, but he comes with key weaknesses. The argument that Tyranitar has been the pinacle of OU for 3 generations now isn't an argument. Something has to be used at the top. What are you going to do, nominate the next Pokemon in line?
 
Lets just say Ttar is possibly the most perfect pokemon in term of position of the metagame to get a suspect on it. It is good if not great, and possible overall best pokemon in every of those 3 generation even when factoring the uber'ed things.
He does well in ubers with its one and only niche AND not considered a gimmicky things as well as in Standard to prove its capability so well and change the metagame a lot but he has many weakness to hinder them equally.

However despite that hes's just a pokemon you will call perfect pokemon to describe and overused mon, a pokemon with big threats that bring constant pressure and metagame shift over past and current generations but has good enough amount of weakness and hindered by metagame just as much to balance it.

He's kinda OP in a way(dont flame me read further) but hes the least likely of poke to get banhammer among controversial poke because of that.

And comparing it to Ho-oh is kind of justified. They do play simmilar role. Yeah they have different stats with ho-oh being a little higher than Ttar and Ho-oh perform totally better but their role as specially bulky heavy bomber is all but same with Ho-oh with more power + durability and Ttar with more utility

And to me the 3 gen domination is just to show its capability. I mean Shrang already said he just want to gauge people's opinion. I mean hes the same dude that popularized Specs Kingdra and Virizion back in round 2 he definitely know his shit
 
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