np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Ulevo]

I'm not taking anything away from Tyranitar, but they're simply not the same even if they share the similar stats.

1) The point that Ho-Oh loses his reliable recovery is moot because of how often he forces switches. You switch Ho-Oh in to Ferrothorn and lose half your HP, it doesn't matter because you can still use Recover or Roost on the switch. When you consider his dual STAB and the fact that Sacred Fire is 50% burn, exactly what is going to want to stay in on Ho-Oh? Also, this example is giving the benefit of the doubt assuming Stealth Rock IS up. It won't always be.

2) Ho-Oh, while 4x weak to Stealth Rock, is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Tyranitar is not, and unlike Ho-Oh, Tyranitar has no way to recovery the damage reliably.

3) Tyranitar's most reliable offensive move is Crunch. It's base 80. Stone Edge is base 100, but the accuracy costs you games. Ho-Oh has a base 120 Flying move, and a base 100 Fire move that gets boosted in the sunlight for free. Whether or not we're talking about its potential in OU or Ubers, both are common conditions. The dual STAB type advantage for Ho-Oh is also much, much better. If Tyranitar wants that same coverage, he's digging in to his movepool for moves with weaker base power and no STAB.

4) Tyranitar only has bulk while sand is up. When sand is gone, his defenses are substantially reduced. A minimal but notable point.

 

[Gerard]

i've always though that tyranitat was way way to powerfull, he was the main reason that psyquic and ghost pokes died in gen 2, and the fact that everyone things psyquic is a horrible type (and indirectly increase the power of the fighting pokes), he could ressist every special attack from the things he needed to kill, but tbh i don't think he will ever be banned (i just hope someday GF creates a fighting pursuit and end tyranitars reign*)

*the type can vary

 

[Benlisted]

Personally, I simply don't think TTar is broken, as much as I hate it. Ulevo's pointed out the flaws in the comparison to Ho-Oh, and I'm sure we all know that very rarely can two pokemon be compared entirely validly.

In terms of Pursuit breaking it under support characteristic, I just don't see how this could be more than a mere factor in an argument for its brokenness. Many other pokemon can function as a lure or trapper and remove something to let another mon sweep, and with team preview you're even alerted to the presence of a powerful pursuiter like TTar (more so than a deviously constructed lure in fact), and know to be on guard, just as you guard your Steels if Magnezone is about. Moreover, in the case of a lot of the mons Shrang outlined as Pursuit victims, they can actually beat TTar one on one if reasonable precatution is taken. Ninetales for example trumps TTar after two switchins if it carries HP Fight, WoW and Sub - three moves which are a centrepiece of one of its two most useful sets, according to the analysis, and this is one of the mons most direly threatened by it.

With regards to SS, I don't see that breaking him either. Yes it means he's awfully bulky with investment, but he's very susceptible to all forms of hazard, making him easy to wear down if you really want to get rid of that weather, since he has no reliable recovery or inclination to run Rest. Many Tales have again begun doing just that to outlast TTar, who would be wasting moveslots to improve its survivability, for instance, and combined with hazards it's often not too hard to rid the opponent of their TTar. The same goes with regards to investment for TTar - if you invest in bulk you don't have enough power to scare the other weather inducers with, and if you invest in attack then they can easily wear you down (especially Tales with WoW). He can't do everything he'd like to for SS against Rain/Sun at once.

The main factor I see as possibly suspect worthy is his sheer versatility. His movepool is absolutely ridiculous, he can be bulky on either side, fast, powerful on either side (or both), hit practically anything with coverage moves, remove things with pursuit and set SR. Admittedly not all on the same set, but you really have no idea what you're looking at even if you scout for lefties, given the sheer variety of items and sets he can run. This is where his true power comes in imo - he can perform an immense amount of roles very well, as well as leave the opponent guessing to some extent as to which this is, causing a much milder gen 4 mence syndrome. But just because a pokemon is very good at a ton of things doesn't mean it's broken, unless it's broken at one of those things, or broken because some of those things are utterly deadly if you guess wrong (going by mence's precedent), or when some of its roles are combined, which imo is the only argument you could make for TTar's brokenness. Having already addressed pursuit and SS, I don't think this is the case for TTar, so I see no need to ban the sand behemoth.

 

[lmitchell0012]

The only thing that would make him more broken is nasty plot, which unfortunately he didn't get...

 

[Gerard]

Actually Sucker Punch is what would make him Uber (since speed is the only thing holding him down)

 

[JSND]

I'm not taking anything away from Tyranitar, but they're simply not the same even if they share the similar stats.

1) The point that Ho-Oh loses his reliable recovery is moot because of how often he forces switches. You switch Ho-Oh in to Ferrothorn and lose half your HP, it doesn't matter because you can still use Recover or Roost on the switch. When you consider his dual STAB and the fact that Sacred Fire is 50% burn, exactly what is going to want to stay in on Ho-Oh? Also, this example is giving the benefit of the doubt assuming Stealth Rock IS up. It won't always be.

2) Ho-Oh, while 4x weak to Stealth Rock, is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Tyranitar is not, and unlike Ho-Oh, Tyranitar has no way to recovery the damage reliably.

3) Tyranitar's most reliable offensive move is Crunch. It's base 80. Stone Edge is base 100, but the accuracy costs you games. Ho-Oh has a base 120 Flying move, and a base 100 Fire move that gets boosted in the sunlight for free. Whether or not we're talking about its potential in OU or Ubers, both are common conditions. The dual STAB type advantage for Ho-Oh is also much, much better. If Tyranitar wants that same coverage, he's digging in to his movepool for moves with weaker base power and no STAB.

4) Tyranitar only has bulk while sand is up. When sand is gone, his defenses are substantially reduced. A minimal but notable point.

I never said Ho-oh lost his recovery. Anyway your post is basicaly covering all the trutj need to be told. Im just saying a reason why one would comparing 2 different things(and thats rather VERY VERY different)

And Ho-oh Fr/Fl coverage is good because he have the move. Just saying
before CHarizard's fanboy come here and say Fr/Fl sucks. Dude he dont even have brave bird !!!! why would he be comparable to Ho-oh even without factoring stats ?

 

[Ulevo]

I never said Ho-oh lost his recovery. Anyway your post is basicaly covering all the trutj need to be told. Im just saying a reason why one would comparing 2 different things(and thats rather VERY VERY different)

And Ho-oh Fr/Fl coverage is good because he have the move. Just saying
before CHarizard's fanboy come here and say Fr/Fl sucks. Dude he dont even have brave bird !!!! why would he be comparable to Ho-oh even without factoring stats ?

My comment regarding recovery was directed towards Shrang and his previous comparison between Ho-Oh and Tyranitar.

 

[IcyMan28]

I'm really not understanding all this rage aimed at Shrang. The Ho-Oh comparison may have been a bit much, but when you have a pokemon dominating the metagame for 3 generations (that's about 10 years, given the fact that FRLG came out about 2 years after RS), it is only natural to at least look at it.

Hell, people got sick of Garchomp dominating and it only did that for about a year and a half. Salamence dominated even less and people were crying out for it.

Tyranitar is not the same type of sweeper, obviously. But it does perform extremely well in just about any environment, can run a multitude of sets, has the moves to check its counters (it doesn't even actually need Ice Beam for Gliscor; CB Aqua Tail can 2HKO it and Hippowdon as well).

Again, I'm still skeptical of Tyranitar as a suspect. It has various weak points (those being its low speed, weak/inaccurate STABs, and its physical weaknesses in particular), and can be readily contained as a byproduct of preparing for other threats. That does not mean I can't see the logic behind taking a look at the pokemon that has essentially defined OU for the past 3 generations, and thus impacts the way we see the metagame significantly (why do you think no one really cares about the presence of Sand in OU?)

I'm just going to start posting this at the end of every comment I make. Ban Drizzle, Free Manaphy.

 

[Benlisted]

I'm really not understanding all this rage aimed at Shrang. The Ho-Oh comparison may have been a bit much, but when you have a pokemon dominating the metagame for 3 generations (that's about 10 years, given the fact that FRLG came out about 2 years after RS), it is only natural to at least look at it.

Hell, people got sick of Garchomp dominating and it only did that for about a year and a half. Salamence dominated even less and people were crying out for it.

Tyranitar is not the same type of sweeper, obviously. But it does perform extremely well in just about any environment, can run a multitude of sets, has the moves to check its counters (it doesn't even actually need Ice Beam for Gliscor; CB Aqua Tail can 2HKO it and Hippowdon as well).

Again, I'm still skeptical of Tyranitar as a suspect. It has various weak points (those being its low speed, weak/inaccurate STABs, and its physical weaknesses in particular), and can be readily contained as a byproduct of preparing for other threats. That does not mean I can't see the logic behind taking a look at the pokemon that has essentially defined OU for the past 3 generations, and thus impacts the way we see the metagame significantly (why do you think no one really cares about the presence of Sand in OU?)

I'm just going to start posting this at the end of every comment I make. Ban Drizzle, Free Manaphy.

If I seemed like I was raging at Shrang, I apolgise, that was not my intention. I just disagree with his points and therefore posted my opinions on the things he brought up to back up his opinion.

In any case, I really have no idea why anyone even brings up the fact that TTar has dominated the meta for three generations in this debate. How TTar did in another meta is of absolutely no relevance to whether it's broken in this one. The only possible factor we could pass over is people's bias towards him due to this (which isn't really an issue in a solid suspect discussion), and bias towards SS as default weather due to this - but again this has almost nothing to do with discussion of him as a suspect. If we want to look at Sand Stream or indeed another weather as a suspect then okay, we should take this potential for bias into consideration given the huge generation differences with regard to weather, but really, what does TTar itself being so good for so long in different metas have to do with its own suspect status?

 

[JSND]

Shrang did said he dont really think its broken only a bit controversial and he posted to see our way of thinking. SO far his points is actualy quite legit.

At least he dont go inb4 Ovecentralize Ttar can have T-Wave, Toxic, SUperpower, Crunch, Edge, Boltbeamthrower,101 Sub 403 attack 450 SpD hold every item in the game rage that most poster before does for rank.
And he also posted the comaprison beetwen Ttar and support chracteristic which fits right into the bill right there.

Now the problem is as i said Ttar is just too perfect. Hes the most stabile OU poke right now along with overall best. But thing is his stability in the meta is really what prevented general views about it being broken which i dont really find it is.

Despite that after seeing previous post i think its better than rank(which i dont have trouble at all) yeah i admit shrang is in my view one of the best player here so i might be a little one sided, but his posts there really hold grounds. He thoroughtly analyze the capability ttar usualy does in most battle scenario and compare it the old ruleset for support characteristic. That is exactly the kind of post id like to see in suspect threads like these rather than the usual post with this format :

"Rank = cheap no skill broken to specialized magic guard on good poke is too much SDS references have no counetr can do everything it destroy stall so it must be banned" which lets face it literally fill this topic lately.

 

[Ewil]

I hate the unpredictable ttar, but i don't think that is broken.

for me, the threats are:

Latios: you know why

Deoxys-S: Easy Double screens, hazard, sweep (sometimes)

Rotom-W: Yeah ! Hating this guy so much. it have 3 common sets and it is too annoying for me. Only one weakness and a lot of useful resistances. It can trick, sweep, burn and under rain become a great monster.

Drizzle: Toxicroak, Thundurus, Tornadus, rotom-w, etc. We have already a lot of abuser even after the aldaron prop. Tornadus is maybe the most dangerus, idk if banning torna and thund or the drizzle ability.

Drought: Volcarona, victini, Darmanitian and the chloro users are all too powerful for the fault of droughtales.

I don't nominate Garchomp coz sand veil is his only ability. When Rough Skin will be released i'll nominate the sand veil ability to be banned.

For now, i've finish.

 

[Forsety]

Edit @ Foresty: 252 Choice Band Adamant Escavelier to fleeing 4 Hp Latios: 117.9% - 139.1%

Erm, what? I tested this with 0 Evs for Escavelier and he does 94% minimum even then.

Obviously I'm talking about non-CB sets, I should like to think most CB sets with a multitude of Pokemon can do the OHKO at the expense of alot of things...CB aren't the only versions which exist since not all Latios are your average Choice Draco Meteor spam and some might want Esca to do more out of revenge killing.

But point in the making is that T-tar because of his STAB doesn't need CB or any aid to pull it off. If I recall even no attack investment can still pull off a OHKO on a fleeing Latios and it just further highlights his sheer versatility and raw power when he can still pull off halfassed KO's.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

In any case, I really have no idea why anyone even brings up the fact that TTar has dominated the meta for three generations in this debate. How TTar did in another meta is of absolutely no relevance to whether it's broken in this one.

I brought it up because everybody was talking about "overcentralization" being a good reason to ban Reuniclus. "OMG I have to think about Reuniclus when building a team? BAN IT!" was the popular sentiment a couple pages ago, so I said "hey we've had a centralized metagame around TTar for years, what's the difference?". What you said here is exactly right though, something's performance in other gens has no impact on votes in this one. Example: Blaziken, DP Salamence

The only possible factor we could pass over is people's bias towards him due to this (which isn't really an issue in a solid suspect discussion), and bias towards SS as default weather due to this - but again this has almost nothing to do with discussion of him as a suspect.

You're right that it has no place in a real discussion...but the voters don't have to have legitimate reasons for voting. They just vote based on their personal preference. So that bias does have a place in this discussion, because we have to find ways to remove it.

People have already accepted Sand as the default weather. Just look at our analyses, there's a mention of Sandstorm in tons of OU analyses spanning multiple generations. They already accept Tyranitar as a driving force in all these metagames, which is why they react so annoyingly when something else makes them think when teambuilding (*COUGHblazikenreuniclusCOUGHCOUGH*). If your entire team loses to one pokemon, then it's probably your team that should be banned, not that one pokemon.

*clarification - I don't actually think TTar is banworthy, it just fits most of the reasons why people in this thread want to ban other things. I'm just using it as an example to point out peoples hypocrisy. *

 

[Umbrellacorp495]

I for one give Shrang credit.

After reading the last 5 pages of this thread I have not seen one, ONE good argument for why T-Tar should be banned. He at least made a valid point and while although I don't agree with banishing Tyranitar (Or comparing him to Ho-Oh ._.) I still think he has a point. But to me, these are not points of why he should be banned, only why he is good, and why he has apparently been the "Pinnacle of Serial Rapists for Almost a Decade"

You must be able to check things. If you are weak to one thing, you deserve to lose. That means you made an oversight in team building. You don't ban something, you get better.

Exactly, Every Pokemon in the game has 1 or more checks period. I guarantee that if you swapped out T-Tar for Ho-Oh (Or any other Uber for that matter) it would be found to have a check(s) so fucking fast it wouldn't even be funny.

They already accept Tyranitar as a driving force in all these metagames, which is why they react so annoyingly when something else makes them think when teambuilding (*COUGHblazikenreuniclusCOUGHCOUGH*).

HaHa! Yeah pretty much, though I do think taking it into consideration is necessary when it's that frequent and that good but again: counters, alot of them, use, stop bitching, PLEASE!!

I saw someone who said that Weather was what made T-Tar Suspect, Hippowdon, Politoed, Ninetales, none of which have even been close to be considered suspect because weather is not that big of a deal.

Another one reason argument I saw was that it was so specialy bulky it was broken for that reason. Well if we look at Blissey or Chansey...... yeah. Actually lol, Cradilly in sand has much better typing/SpDef capability in sand than T-Tar so yeah.

Then last but not least people saying that it was far to powerful to be in OU. There are 15 pokes with Atk stats equal to or higher than T-Tar in OU or less so theres that, and still not paired with that such great speed doesn't make it the best Choice Scarf ab00sur either.

Okay so there are the arguments. And Shrang was the only one that sorta put these together, because if you put Strength, decent bulk, and automatic weather (Which gives him even more bulk) together. It sounds pretty fucking scary. :/ But again I can't reiterate this enough, There are so many good checks to T-Tar or any other good OU poke. Sure T-Tar is probably one of the better OU pokes in versatility and usage data but still you don't even need to be confined to OU for counters to him really. And that goes for other pokes as well. One of the games best counters for Darkrai is Heracross, who is a UU poke now (God knows why?) But anyway I think I stand for alot of seasoned veterans when I say T-Tar is farther from being banned then it ever should have been and that most people that can't handle him or any other non-ban worth poke should either become better battlers o just ignore OU completely.

If you can't stand the heat, get the fuck out of the OU kitchen.

 

[Benlisted]

I brought it up because everybody was talking about "overcentralization" being a good reason to ban Reuniclus. "OMG I have to think about Reuniclus when building a team? BAN IT!" was the popular sentiment a couple pages ago, so I said "hey we've had a centralized metagame around TTar for years, what's the difference?". What you said here is exactly right though, something's performance in other gens has no impact on votes in this one. Example: Blaziken, DP Salamence

You're right that it has no place in a real discussion...but the voters don't have to have legitimate reasons for voting. They just vote based on their personal preference. So that bias does have a place in this discussion, because we have to find ways to remove it.

In all honesty I didn't even notice that you brought it up, I was mostly just immediately responding to IcyMan and anyone in the future who may try to use it as justification for banning TTar, just as I would if someone said "its great in Ubers so we should ban it to there" or something. Using it as you did to point out hypocrisy is not something I was targeting, sorry if it seemed that way!

What you say below that is ofc true though, I was careful wording what I said because of this because it's a bit of a contentious issue which is difficult to define. What I was trying to say, probably unclearly, was that in a balanced discussion of TTar's suspect status, performance in other gens should have no bearing. The reason I treated Sand Stream etc differently is because of just how difficult it has proven to be to define any weather as inherently broken, so imo prejudices are more likely to slip in unnoticed, due to the more complex nature of the issue. Like you say though, we should be vigiliant in trying to prevent bias in both cases, however.

I basically think that there is no real bias towards TTar himself, but there may be for the effects he brings to the field. Since there's been little discussion of the issue I may well be proven wrong, however.

 

[SJCrew]

while Tyranitar can take stuff like +1 Aura Sphere (4x WEAK) from Mewtwo and both OHKO in return.

Erm, no it can't. Mewtwo OHKOs any set that isn't Curse even with with Defensive Calm Mind (which runs very little Sp. Att EVs). Curse can't OHKO back, and none of its sets with the power to KO will survive an Aura Sphere.

One thing that was quite interesting last gen was Manaphy's banning. One big argument was that with ScarfTar support, it ripped through teams. However, this posed another question that was actually a very valid point and went unanswered: Should Manaphy be Uber for the Offensive Characteristic, or should Tyranitar be Uber for the Support Characteristic?

This argument was absolute horseshit btw. Manaphy didn't need Scarftar to "remove its counters" because it didn't have any. I've seen them all, and beat them all: Specs Jolt, Roserade, Celebi, Suicune, Snorlax, Latias, Abomasnow; they all either failed to KO before it Rested again, or died to boosted Surfs. If anything should have been banned for Support that round, it was really anything that could have set up Rain and used U-turn.

I think we all recognize by this point that Tyranitar in and of itself is piss easy to counter, and there's no way "unpredictable" and "dominant for three gens" are going to cut it during crunch time. The only kind of basis it has for suspect testing is Sandstorm support, for the also-not-broken Excadrill, and Garchomp, who's already on the ropes and being discussed.

I'd rather not further entertain the idea of Tyranitar being considered broken, lol. It's ridiculous enough as is.

 

[jas61292]

I think we all recognize by this point that Tyranitar in and of itself is piss easy to counter, and there's no way "unpredictable" and "dominant for three gens" are going to cut it during crunch time. The only kind of basis it has for suspect testing is Sandstorm support, for the also-not-broken Excadrill, and Garchomp, who's already on the ropes and being discussed.

I'd rather not further entertain the idea of Tyranitar being considered broken, lol. It's ridiculous enough as is.

I really don't think from what I read that too many people actually think T-Tar should be banned. A lot of what was being said about T-Tar was just examples of things, and not actually suggestions that it is broken. I think the main problem with Tyranitar and the whole "dominant for three gens" thing is not whether Tar is too good, but whether people have just accepted that it is not.

When talking about weather in general the vast majority of people would not say Sand is broken at all, but you hear that exact argument all the time for Rain, or even Sun occasionally (Sorry Hail. You just suck. Relatively, of course). The argument that people have just accepted Sand as the default weather is a very valid one. If all your strategies developed around the fact that their will always be Sand, then having permanent other weather will destroy you.

Personally, I am against all notions of banning any weather inducer, as well as the current Drizzle + SS ban. If the metagame develops so that Rain is the constant, so be it. Then, once that happens, ban guys that are broken (Say Kingdra) under the premise that rain will always be around. Yes, it may very well change the entire face of the metagame, but despite what people may feel, change isn't bad. So why don't we actually let gen 5 have its own metagame, and then fix the problems with it, instead of tailoring the weather to what we are more used to.

 

[Acritter]

I seriously doubt that Tyranitar is uber. It certainly isn't a strong enough sweeper for it (hello priority), it's an okay wall specially but lacks a little on the physical side, it has a pretty great movepool but nothing unstoppable, and its support options are kind of limited to Stealth Rock. The only thing that might push it over is Sand Stream, and Hippowdon fills a lot of its role in that category. In fact, Hippo has absurd physical defense as well as SR and Roar, making it an excellent supporting Pokemon. If we ban Tyranitar, then I would encourage a Hippowdon ban as well (but an Excadrill ban before either of those). I think the best comparison to Tyranitar is 4th-gen's legendary Scizor, who was an excellent Pokemon to have on any team but never even considered overpowering.

 

[shrang]

Okay, people should tell me WHY comparisons with Ho-Oh is ridiculous instead of telling me that it is ridiculous. Please use reasoning to back your claims. I have given you reasons why I believe it's legit.

I'm not taking anything away from Tyranitar, but they're simply not the same even if they share the similar stats.

1) The point that Ho-Oh loses his reliable recovery is moot because of how often he forces switches. You switch Ho-Oh in to Ferrothorn and lose half your HP, it doesn't matter because you can still use Recover or Roost on the switch. When you consider his dual STAB and the fact that Sacred Fire is 50% burn, exactly what is going to want to stay in on Ho-Oh? Also, this example is giving the benefit of the doubt assuming Stealth Rock IS up. It won't always be.

Well, Ho-Oh just switched in Ferrothorn and forced it out, using Recover to get to 100%. You have a 100% Ho-Oh and Ferrothorn (presumably in good health). You have achieved essentially nothing apart from bringing Ho-Oh into the game, probably only to be forced out again by something else. Let's have a similar scenario: Tyranitar switches into Latias. Latias goes "Oh shit, I can't beat that" (She actually can't, I've actually tried random shit like CM+Charm, CM+Reflect and none of them work) and switches out. Instead, Tyranitar uses Pursuit and kills or severely mangles the bitch, paving the way for something else to come in and sweep. Stealth Rock is up commonly enough to consider that Ho-Oh will be switching into them most of the time.

2) Ho-Oh, while 4x weak to Stealth Rock, is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Tyranitar is not, and unlike Ho-Oh, Tyranitar has no way to recovery the damage reliably.

Not that really matters, Spikes and Toxic Spikes, while being annoying as hell to the massive beast, doesn't really deter Tyranitar from doing its job until you've gotten him to switch into it like 2 or 3 times. Unless you outpredict the opposing Tyranitar that many times, you've probably lost your Latias, or Ninetales, or whatever.

3) Tyranitar's most reliable offensive move is Crunch. It's base 80. Stone Edge is base 100, but the accuracy costs you games. Ho-Oh has a base 120 Flying move, and a base 100 Fire move that gets boosted in the sunlight for free. Whether or not we're talking about its potential in OU or Ubers, both are common conditions. The dual STAB type advantage for Ho-Oh is also much, much better. If Tyranitar wants that same coverage, he's digging in to his movepool for moves with weaker base power and no STAB.

I'll give you this, since this is a major reason why Ho-Oh kicks so much ass. However, this doesn't really stop Tyranitar from coming into trap your key Pokemon, so it doesn't really matter. To clear up any misconceptions, I do not think Tyranitar is broken because he can sweep. However, I do think he is worth testing by his ability to trap and remove too many targets with too little difficulty, allowing something else to sweep. I don't give crap he has low speed, too many weaknesses, whatever. I only care that he has enough bulk and the right moves (Pursuit, Crunch) to do what he does (which is to trap and remove key targets) too efficiently.

4) Tyranitar only has bulk while sand is up. When sand is gone, his defenses are substantially reduced. A minimal but notable point.[/QUOTE]

Ho-Oh requires the sun a lot of time as well, otherwise he can't switch into Surf that has any kind of SpA investment behind it. While this is Ubers mentality, without the sun, Ho-Oh will also be a lot more afraid of Thunder flying around the place. Again, as you noted, this is a minimal point.

Erm, no it can't. Mewtwo OHKOs any set that isn't Curse even with with Defensive Calm Mind (which runs very little Sp. Att EVs). Curse can't OHKO back, and none of its sets with the power to KO will survive an Aura Sphere.

Timid 252 SpA Mewtwo's +1 Aura Sphere vs 252/252+ Tyranitar: 72.28% - 85.15%
while in return, 0 Atk neutral natured Tyranitar's Payback vs 0/0 Mewtwo: 86.69% - 101.98% - But I'll give this point to you anyway, since everyone runs Life Orb on Mewtwo these days anyway, I'm still in 4th gen Taunt/CM Mewtwo mentality

Now that I've actually presented my reasoning, can everyone else do the same apart from going "Tyranitar being banned is ridiculous"? Tell me why it's ridiculous, please.

 

[jas61292]

Timid 252 SpA Mewtwo's +1 Aura Sphere vs 252/252+ Tyranitar: 72.28% - 85.15%
while in return, 0 Atk neutral natured Tyranitar's Payback vs 0/0 Mewtwo: 86.69% - 101.98% - But I'll give this point to you anyway, since everyone runs Life Orb on Mewtwo these days anyway, I'm still in 4th gen Taunt/CM Mewtwo mentality

Just out of curiosity, who actually runs 252 HP / 252 SpD+ T-Tar? Because most of your other points involve a Pursuit T-Tar, and I highly doubt it would run that spread. And if no one uses it, that point is irrelevant.

 

[XienZo]

What exactly is wrong with removing certain targets with little difficulty to potentially open up a sweep?

I don't quite see how that's necessarily detrimental to the metagame.

I mean, you get rid of Latias, and if one of your sweepers was held back by only Latias (and perhaps other pokes T-tar could trap), you could try for a sweep and hope they don't even have other checks for it.

Doesn't sound all that detrimental.

 

[shrang]

Just out of curiosity, who actually runs 252 HP / 252 SpD+ T-Tar? Because most of your other points involve a Pursuit T-Tar, and I highly doubt it would run that spread. And if no one uses it, that point is irrelevant.

I've seen people use it in 4th gen Ubers (IIRC Train Man used it once or twice?). Maybe it wasn't 252 HP / 252 SpD +, a more common spread was 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 SpD with an Adamant nature, which Mewtwo did 82.18% - 97.03% to with non Life Orb boosted Aura Sphere. The drop in power for Pursuit was easily fixed up by a fun item called the Choice Band.

 

[jas61292]

I've seen people use it in 4th gen Ubers (IIRC Train Man used it once or twice?). Maybe it wasn't 252 HP / 252 SpD +, a more common spread was 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 SpD with an Adamant nature, which Mewtwo did 82.18% - 97.03% to with non Life Orb boosted Aura Sphere. The drop in power for Pursuit was easily fixed up by a fun item called the Choice Band.

OK, that's fine. However:

What exactly is wrong with removing certain targets with little difficulty to potentially open up a sweep?

I don't quite see how that's necessarily detrimental to the metagame.

I mean, you get rid of Latias, and if one of your sweepers was held back by only Latias (and perhaps other pokes T-tar could trap), you could try for a sweep and hope they don't even have other checks for it.

Doesn't sound all that detrimental.

That is what I would also like to know. Is it useful, yeah, but I don't see how it is broken.

 

[shrang]

Oh yeah, I forgot address the Magnezone points (I should really edit this into my other posts but whatever).

Here's a point to consider:
How many Steels does Magnezone ACTUALLY trap and kill? Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn (if you switch into Leech Seed in the rain, you're still losing), Scizor (although if he's U-turning or it's raining, you're kinda screwed), Excavalier, and that's about it. The more potent Steels can still easily beat you (Jirachi, Metagross, lolRegisteel, Heatran, Bisharp, lolCobalion). On the other hand, Tyranitar catches more Pokemon with greater efficiency. That's the difference.

 

[jas61292]

So you've convinced me that Tyranitar is a really good Pokemon. And that's about it. What exactly is so wrong with that? How is it detrimental to the metagame?