np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Shurtugal]

Honstley, I hated hearing the "I don't WANT to use Gliscor, therefore ____ should be banned." Metagame does not orbit around what we do and do not want. There should be a solid chance for every pokemon. I am not pointing this at Excadrill, at this point I really do not care if he does or does not come back. Still, I hope next banners will consider a fair chance for every pokemon and use legit arguements.

 

[asdfrozen]

Maybe a quick "fix" for the suspect voting process might be to raise the voting requirements?

 

[Shurtugal]

Agreed, there should be. I reccommend the following.

Rules:

1.) A voter must give a valid reason why something should be banned. If there are enough (more than ___ number of checks) then it cannot be risen for suspect.
2.) A voter must have prior game knowledge to vote
3.) Certain # of pokes cannot be put on suspect (how annoying it was when Oddish voters came, or Jirachi, ect.)

 

[Pippy]

@Kefka: oops, forgot Wobb and Dugtrio (and DW Chandelure). Other than those three, everything can be countered somehow.

@Thorhammer: BP is a rather specific senerio already since not many people run it. And yes, that was a specific scenario I gave as an example. But in that example, what could you do? (asuming the person also had an Espeon, which basically every BP has)

@Anthonians: That's a great idea.

 

[Drifloon]

Honstley, I hated hearing the "I don't WANT to use Gliscor, therefore ____ should be banned." Metagame does not orbit around what we do and do not want. There should be a solid chance for every pokemon. I am not pointing this at Excadrill, at this point I really do not care if he does or does not come back. Still, I hope next banners will consider a fair chance for every pokemon and use legit arguements.

It's not "I don't WANT to use it", it's more like "I'm FORCED to use it".

Anyways, I admit some of the suspects were really dumb but eh, whatever.

 

[XienZo]

@Kefka: oops, forgot Wobb and Dugtrio (and DW Chandelure). Other than those three, everything can be countered somehow.

DP Infernape never had a single direct counter, since it could use some coverage moves to beat them.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

@Kefka: oops, forgot Wobb and Dugtrio (and DW Chandelure). Other than those three, everything can be countered somehow.

@Thorhammer: BP is a rather specific senerio already since not many people run it. And yes, that was a specific scenario I gave as an example. But in that example, what could you do? (asuming the person also had an Espeon, which basically every BP has)

1. Counter MixNite, MixNape, and MixMence for me please.

2. In that example, I could launch a surprise Taunt(MEW, although it's not really a surprise :D), Roar, Dragon Tail, or smack it with a really strong special attack.

 

[Drifloon]

1. Counter MixNite, MixNape, and MixMence for me please.

pory2 beats mixnite and mixmence and tenta beats mixnape

 

[MetaGross66]

Not everything has a counter... Just look at SD Flame Orb Heracross. >.>

Edit: who uses lolcofagrigus in OU? I can understand tenta and pory 2, but cofagrigus. T_T

 

[Spenstar]

Not everything has a counter... Just look at SD Flame Orb Heracross. >.>

Confagrius. Switch in on CC, you're immune. He megahorns you, you resist it with amazing defense, he gets mummied and his own burn works against him.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Honstley, I hated hearing the "I don't WANT to use Gliscor, therefore ____ should be banned." Metagame does not orbit around what we do and do not want. There should be a solid chance for every pokemon. I am not pointing this at Excadrill, at this point I really do not care if he does or does not come back. Still, I hope next banners will consider a fair chance for every pokemon and use legit arguements.

It's not that the people didn't want to use (blank). It's that they HAD to use (blank) to counter (blank). Using Gliscor as an answer to sand and Celebi as an answer to rain for your teams would leave your team wide open to lesser-used threats like Nasty Plot Zoroark. Before Excadrill got banned, I used to have loads of fun sweeping teams with that guy because everyone was using stuff like Gliscor, Celebi, and Ferrothorn to counter weather.

Let's say a really great sweeper, for example, SD Lucario. SD Lucario is countered by Gengar, Scarf Magnezone, Terrakion, actually scratch that. Anything faster than Lucario in any way including Choice Scarf and resistant to or immune to ExtremeSpeed counters SD Lucario. Gliscor also walls it unless Lucario has Ice Punch, which I haven't seen Ice Punch on any SD Lucarios as of yet. Isn't that so much less restricting than Excadrill's few counters of maybe just Gliscor, Scarf Politoed, and a few Air Balloon mons?

Also, @Above, Cofagrigus isn't really that good. Heracross can also switch out to get rid of Mummy anyway.

This also applies to Baton Pass. The few counters to Baton Pass (Haze being the only solid one) aren't really appealing outside of dealing with Baton Pass, the only exceptions being maybe Tornadus and Whimsicott. Tornadus sucks outside of rain teams, and Whimsicott is annoying but easy to work around if you know how to do it.

 

[kyurem92]

Confagrius. Switch in on CC, you're immune. He megahorns you, you resist it with amazing defense, he gets mummied and his own burn works against him.

Cofagrius is used?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Who cares? It's a counter. People tried to come with the argument of "well not everything has a counter", so he gave one to a certain apparently uncounterable pokémon.

 

[SJCrew]

"Not everything has [to have] a counter" has been debunked several times in this thread alone, let's just leave that line of logic in the trash where it belongs. If you guys really want to drive a point home about powerful Pokemon in OU that are hard to stop but not quite bannable, home in on other things like number of checks it has and circumstances required for its best moves (recoil, 2-3 turn lock-in). There are a lot of scenarios people just don't take into account when they talk about counters (how viable is Work Up on Terrakion, and what if Gliscor uses Protect to prevent a likely 2HKO?).

And perhaps most importantly, be set-specific when you are mentioning counters. Trying to bring up Dragonite using Draco Meteor is counterproductive when its best and most common sets this gen operate from only one side of the attacking spectrum. The guy that surprises you one match might get your one Pokemon, but he's missing out on the raw power, utility, and reliability of Choice Band or Dragon Dance, which will undoubtedly factor in once you're aware of the set and try to bring in checks.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

1. Counter MixNite, MixNape, and MixMence for me please.

2. In that example, I could launch a surprise Taunt(MEW, although it's not really a surprise :D), Roar, Dragon Tail, or smack it with a really strong special attack.

pory2 beats mixnite and mixmence and tenta beats mixnape

Dragonite has Superpower
Infernape has Earthquake
Mence...idk tbh

 

[alexwolf]

Dragonite has Superpower
Infernape has Earthquake
Mence...idk tbh

Dragonite 99% of the time won't have SuperPower since it will be using MS.
Even for a wallbreaker role MS is better since it allows you to take that first hit very easy and start blasting stuff away.

 

[Drifloon]

Dragonite has Superpower
Infernape has Earthquake
Mence...idk tbh

Dragonite will always run Multi-scale, as stated by the above, and even then, it won't OHKO.

252 Atk EVS +Atk Nature Dragonite Superpower vs 252/252 Superpower: 252 - 296 (67.38% - 79.14%)

Infernape never uses earthquake, because fighting/ground coverage is overlapping.

 

[tomtom5858]

DP Infernape never had a single direct counter, since it could use some coverage moves to beat them.

Tentacruel. What now.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Doesn't matter. You stated they hard counter the said pokemon, I pointed out that they have options to beat those pokemon. Just because Ape doesnt often run EQ doesn't mean it cant. Terrakion rarely runs EQ but when it does your ground weak check is screwed. And Superpower will 2HKO so if Porygon2 swiches in its screwed. Hell, DM+Superpower would kill it too.

 

[Tenodera]

Doesn't matter. You stated they hard counter the said pokemon, I pointed out that they have options to beat those pokemon. Just because Ape doesnt often run EQ doesn't mean it cant. Terrakion rarely runs EQ but when it does your ground weak check is screwed. And Superpower will 2HKO so if Porygon2 swiches in its screwed. Hell, DM+Superpower would kill it too.

Unless Pory2 is Scarfed. If Dragonite gets to use near-nonexistent sets, its counters do too.

Few Pokemon with stats that high and movepools that large are going to have 100% counters. And we're ok with that because we counter the set, or predict it and bring in a check on a resist. Running EQ Infernape will let you down more often than not because the opponent may bring, I don't know, Swampert in on your Flamethrower and you'll really miss Grass Knot.

Speaking of which, Jellicent probably beats any variety of Infernape without +4 Sun Flare Blitz.

 

[ssbbm]

Dragonite has Superpower
Infernape has Earthquake
Mence...idk tbh

mixnite (i assume 5th gen) doesn't run superpower mixnape doesn't run eq; we weren't asked to counter ALL variants of dragonite, nor all variants of infernape - we were merely asked to counter mixnite and mixnape.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Okay this thread is starting to get ridiculous. I honestly haven't seen MixNite at all; and even if someone uses it, the chances that it has Inner Focus with Superpower are quite slim. MixApe NEVER has Earthquake, because Grass Knot is a necessity on MixApe.

In fact I've never seen Infernape run EQ, end of story.

At this point people are mentioning virtually nonexistent sets for (blank) that suck outside of countering (blank) as a counter to (blank). That's ridiculous.

 

[Ningildo]

Unless Pory2 is Scarfed. If Dragonite gets to use near-nonexistent sets, its counters do too.

Few Pokemon with stats that high and movepools that large are going to have 100% counters. And we're ok with that because we counter the set, or predict it and bring in a check on a resist. Running EQ Infernape will let you down more often than not because the opponent may bring, I don't know, Swampert in on your Flamethrower and you'll really miss Grass Knot.

Speaking of which, Jellicent probably beats any variety of Infernape without +4 Sun Flare Blitz.

....
How are you going to take hits now?

 

[XienZo]

mixnite (i assume 5th gen) doesn't run superpower mixnape doesn't run eq; we weren't asked to counter ALL variants of dragonite, nor all variants of infernape - we were merely asked to counter mixnite and mixnape.

So what's wrong with there not being a counter to all variants of BP? Infernape and Dragonite clearly aren't broken just because there isn't a universal counter, so it's faulty to say that BP is broken just because there isn't a universal counter for that.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

So what's wrong with there not being a counter to all variants of BP? Infernape and Dragonite clearly aren't broken just because there isn't a universal counter, so it's faulty to say that BP is broken just because there isn't a universal counter for that.

It's not that they don't have a viable counter, it's that they have very few viable counters and the viable counters most likely suck outside of countering said Pokemon or are very shaky checks. Especially with Dragonite; You need Stealth Rock up to effectively deal with it and even then every team with Dragonite has a spinner (usually Starmie)

I guarantee that if Dragonite didn't have Multiscale, it would not be so high in the ranks in OU; I doubt it would even be OU at all since Haxorus and Salamence would automatically become better Dragon Dancers.

Also, Infernape DOES have a universal check at least: Alakazam. Alakazam OHKOes regardless of whether it uses Psyshock or Psychic.

Also, I found the Scarf Porygon2 comment hilarious. Is that even competitively viable? Good luck taking any hits, as the above poster said.