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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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And to add on to charro:
If you're running a neutral nature with 0 EVs, your SpAtk Stat is 206. After a Shell Smash, your Hydro Pump is basically as strong as Kyogre's, while you're fast enough to outspeed ScarfLandorus (unless you run bulk which is admittedly useful a lot of times). Also, the funny thing about Cloyster is that the only thing that can kill it is Excadrill under sand / Chlorophyll under sun, Vacuum Wave, Empoleon (lol) or residual damage + Mach Punch / Bullet Punch. If you lack these, then your best hope is to never get locked into Ice Moves (SpecsPolitoed can't kill my Mence now :D) and to never let something that Cloyster can set up on come in, cause otherwise thats' GG. Basically, Cloyster's main problem is that Sandstorm + LO (which it NEEDS) + SR tend to kill it rather quickly but it can do a LOT of damage before it goes down.
EDIT: oh yeah quagsire gets hit by Hydro Pump in the rain for 79.2% - 92.9% assuming 252/4 and if it's running 252/252+ then you a) still get 2HKOed cleanly by Hydro Pump (51.8% - 61.4%) and b) get 2HKOed by Icicle Spear easily (66-78.1%).
:D damn right! My empoleon takes crap damage from +2 cloyster, no defensive bulk added. Steel is awesome.
Yea, Cloyster is fuckin scary. The most common priority STAB Mach Punch from Conkeldurr only does 53-64% after a defense drop.
Thankfully I don't have Rain, but if the opposing team packs Politoed + Cloyster my team would have to be in pristine condition or it'll die to Cloyster's hits. Good thing that Cloyster isn't that common.
Thankfully I don't have Rain, but if the opposing team packs Politoed + Cloyster my team would have to be in pristine condition or it'll die to Cloyster's hits. Good thing that Cloyster isn't that common.
does it do better with life orb or white herb? i always ran white herb... but is life orb necessary? why dont ppl run omastar? its like a special cloyster... super scary. beter coverage... why not? good bulk too.
i run shell smash, hydro pump, ice beam, hp grass. i guess ferrothorn kinda walls this set but anyone wanna do calcs on +2 life orb hydro pump in rain (btw u dont have to use swift swim. just saying. weak armor or watever is pretty good. live a mach punch, get a sped boost, sweep more)
i run shell smash, hydro pump, ice beam, hp grass. i guess ferrothorn kinda walls this set but anyone wanna do calcs on +2 life orb hydro pump in rain (btw u dont have to use swift swim. just saying. weak armor or watever is pretty good. live a mach punch, get a sped boost, sweep more)
Cloyster huh? No one seemed scared when I showed how nasty plot infernape ohkos everything with resisted fire blast under sunlight...
Cloyster is great. Dual screen deo/espy take him far. He rapes vs. some rain teams, especially those that still use specially defensive scizor.
Cloyster is great. Dual screen deo/espy take him far. He rapes vs. some rain teams, especially those that still use specially defensive scizor.
Ugh, Too bad i had to go, so many bad arguments it's too late to counter.
The one i will respond to is that jellicent counters kyuremu and heatran, so they're not a super unbreakable duo, which he was all saying they were. Besides, a haxrachi can mess heatran up pretty bad with hail doing 6% per turn.
The one i will respond to is that jellicent counters kyuremu and heatran, so they're not a super unbreakable duo, which he was all saying they were. Besides, a haxrachi can mess heatran up pretty bad with hail doing 6% per turn.
Omastar is too slow compared to Cloyster...
I was just using it on a pure dual screens hyper offense team with espeon and 5 set up sweepers, lum berry means that it can set up at least 2 smashes on blissey and if it gets phazed or forced out it may still have the lum berry but with white herb it will be itemless. Actually life orb might
be a good shout i will try it out
edit: Tm13 Actually omastar is a very good shell smash sweeper, but cloyster is one of the best for the ability to go fully mixed with razor shell and make full use of shell smash
Well if we talk about beating rain Omastar have the advantage of having Swift Swim, and after a shell smash it will be faster than light, even without rain it reaches 418 spe being Modest, enough to sweep late game
In rain hp fire OHKO 252/220 relaxed Ferrothorn and Surf OHKO 4/0 Latios but it's walled by Jellicent, Surf does 68.2% - 80.1% do that Ferro and Hydro Pump does 85.8% - 101.1%, but is not that reliable, but is the only way of not being walled because you can go for hp grass (248/96 careful Gyara takes 80.4% - 94.7% from Hydro Pump so no need for hp electric), of course, you need rain from your opponent :I
In rain hp fire OHKO 252/220 relaxed Ferrothorn and Surf OHKO 4/0 Latios but it's walled by Jellicent, Surf does 68.2% - 80.1% do that Ferro and Hydro Pump does 85.8% - 101.1%, but is not that reliable, but is the only way of not being walled because you can go for hp grass (248/96 careful Gyara takes 80.4% - 94.7% from Hydro Pump so no need for hp electric), of course, you need rain from your opponent :I
Cloyster with Deoxys-S support is the scariest thing ever! You WILL need priority if you want any chance of beating it.
Also, for Cloyster. I make sure my Tornadus has Tailwind so I can use that and outspeed Cloyster with Jolteon, but sadly, Tornadus turns out to be death fodder pretty much.
Also, for Cloyster. I make sure my Tornadus has Tailwind so I can use that and outspeed Cloyster with Jolteon, but sadly, Tornadus turns out to be death fodder pretty much.
Salamence is good, it just has trouble fitting on to teams. It's not really effective on rain teams, it hates the recoil sand teams bring (fortunately roost sorta helps if you're using mixed) MixMence still has like no counters and DD will sweep lategame if you pull it off (although its hard with exca and stuff)
Actually, a lot of these things are problems for heavy offense, deoxys-s revenge killing everything and conk mach punching. It's still decent though :/
The main problems I've always found with Salamence is that it's taking a shit ton of residual damage, almost 20% each turn with Life Orb and Sandstorm damage, which combined with all of the super-fast sweepers and Scizor makes it hard for Salamence to get much done with a match. It's quite honestly one of the easiest pokes to play around with with smart switches as you can LO stall it and then bring in a Scarfer such as Rotom-W to easily dispatch it one it reaches around 50% -- and Salamence won't be too eager to switch out considering its SR weakness.
I'm using a hyper-offense team at the moment, and I have to say they're pretty effective if you pick your sweepers carefully. Nasty Plot Lucario is great since it finds plenty of opportunites to set up, gets Vacuum Wave to OHKO Excadrill and Cloyster and can come in on Tyranitar easily, which is important considering he can trap most Dual Screen users with a powerful Pursuit. Although I'm not using Deoxys-S, Latios and Bronzong both make great dual screen transition pokemon.
The good thing about gen 5 hyper offense is that there's SO many deadly setup sweepers in the tier. Volcarona, Cloyster, Lucario, Thundurus, Dragonite... if you pack your team with enough of them only a hardcore stall team is going to weather your attacks.
There's quite a few successful heavy offense teams showcased on the OU RMT section. The one that sticks out the most is Agammemnon's team, a DragMag team with a twist, and Birgal's team, a Dragon + Drought hybrid team.
I agree with GtM - there are several viable sweepers (and supporters) in Gen 5 to make heavy offense work.
I agree with GtM - there are several viable sweepers (and supporters) in Gen 5 to make heavy offense work.
There aren't any serious suspects. Thundurus is always a threat, but so is Excadrill. And like Excadrill, it can be countered and checked if people are bothered enough by it. Does anybody else think we should just go with No Suspect?
Didn't Thundurus fall short of a supermajority by like only a couple of votes? I believe its automatically suspect.
Yes. Thundurus is the only automatic suspect this round.
Thunderus is a pain if he can set up, but can't hit hard enough for KO's otherwise in most cases, and is OHKO'd commonly. Otherwise, I'd like him to leave if only for screwing up the speed tiers this gen (along with Excadrill)
Thundurus is automatically suspect. As far as play-testing goes, it is easy to play around with since it's not that bulky. Not weak to many priority moves, except for Ice Shard and Extremespeed, but scarfers can easily switch into HP Ice / Focus Blast and force it out - being weak to SR doesn't help.
Thundurus trolls a lot of Pokemon with 111 base Speed, but it also gets trolled by Pokemon like Starmie and Raikou who is naturally faster. Plus, unlike Excadrill, scarfers can easily revenge kill it. And yes, there are plenty of scarfers running around despite the presence of Excadrill. I also feel that Thundurus, Tornadus, and Excadrill are among the few things that has prevented things like Latios from completely dominating the metagame. It may sound like broken things covering broken things, but if it's balanced and not excessively centralized, then how could they be broken?
Thundurus trolls a lot of Pokemon with 111 base Speed, but it also gets trolled by Pokemon like Starmie and Raikou who is naturally faster. Plus, unlike Excadrill, scarfers can easily revenge kill it. And yes, there are plenty of scarfers running around despite the presence of Excadrill. I also feel that Thundurus, Tornadus, and Excadrill are among the few things that has prevented things like Latios from completely dominating the metagame. It may sound like broken things covering broken things, but if it's balanced and not excessively centralized, then how could they be broken?
I'd definitely vote No Suspects if I could avoid enough hax to make reqs >.<
Honestly, I feel like this metagame is extremely balanced; you can run any weather for a good shot at success (yes, even sun) and nonweather teams are even viable as people are discovering through the #dreamworld challenge.
Thundurus might be an automatic suspect but I think the long suspect testing round as a result of the server hiatus has caused people to rethink its supposed brokenness and learn to play around it. I used to think Thundurus was Uber-material, but now I'm perfectly fine with it.
Honestly, I feel like this metagame is extremely balanced; you can run any weather for a good shot at success (yes, even sun) and nonweather teams are even viable as people are discovering through the #dreamworld challenge.
Thundurus might be an automatic suspect but I think the long suspect testing round as a result of the server hiatus has caused people to rethink its supposed brokenness and learn to play around it. I used to think Thundurus was Uber-material, but now I'm perfectly fine with it.
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