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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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The choice of a screener really depends on your team's needs.
-Deoxys-S guarantees screens and is still good at preventing hazards, isn't set-up fodder, protects the switch-in from status and can set up his own hazards. Ice Beam is also a good option, 2HKOing every Prankster.
-Espeon completely stops hazards and doesn't fear taunt, but is set-up fodder and not nearly as reliable. Fails hard against Choiced TTars and Volcarona.
-Latias is reliable, can screen twice and has healing wish, but does nothing against hazards and is set-up fodder without Roar.
-Latios is still reliable, is never set up fodder, has kill power and can allow anything to set up with Memento.
As for Virizion... I think he's pretty much outclassed by the others. He can't guarantee screens because of its weaknesses and moderate speed, but doesn't have anything else to offer. HO isn't exactly the most subtle playstyle with team preview, so I wouldn't risk going up against Starmie/Darmanitan/Volcarona/Gliscor/Tornadus/etc.

Nkululeko said:
And on Kingdra, I agree with alphatron on this one, Chesto rest just isn't as good as it used to be since the Drizzle nerf, and definitely not against Sun with Volcarona's on just about every Sun team. Kingdra does well against mostly everything on Sun teams but Volcarona unless you lock yourself into Outrage, I'm guessing Lum berry?
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As for Kingdra, I was talking about this set specifically :
name: Mixed Rain Dance
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Hydro Pump
move 4: Draco Meteor
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Mild
item: Life Orb
evs: 92 Atk / 252 SpA / 164 Spe

Volcarona won't cause you any trouble when you completely wall Ninetales and set up Rain Dance on him. Lum Berry could help against the occasional Hypnosis (Waterfall is mostly for Blissey and cleaning), but you absolutely need LO's sweeping power. With it, Kingdra OHKOes everything under rain bar water-resisting special walls and SpD Jirachi (2HKO). Even defensive Rotom-W can't take a DM after rocks.
 
Scarfwynaut said:
Superpower: 120 + 80 + 53 = 253 + 36 = 289

Brick break:75 + 75 + 75 = 225 + 75 = 300

Only by the 4th turn, birck break is stronger. When is scizor in for 4 turns?

Always use superpower.
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Superpower gives -1 attack each time you use it, meaning it goes 2/3 power, 1/2 power, 2/5 power, 1/3 power...so really, the total would look like this:

Superpower: 120 + 80 + 60 = 260 + 48 = 308 + 40 = 348

Brick Break:75 + 75 + 75 = 225 + 75 = 300 + 75 = 375

Of course, there are other issues with using Superpower; presumably, the opponent won't keep the same Pokemon in. Even though Superpower still does (slightly) more damage than Brick Break on the second turn, the Defense drop may require Scizor to switch out against something that outspeeds it after using Superpower, while it may have been able to weather the hit and retaliate with Brick Break. Basically, offensive sets (Choice Band especially) should run Superpower, since they're switching out all the time anyway. Defensive sets won't appreciate switching that much, and will want to keep their defenses up, so they're often better off using Brick Break. Swords Dance could sort of go either way, depending on the rest of your team and what you're trying to KO.
 
Superpower should only be used situationally, like when you need to deal a major amount of damage in one blow. It's the same concept as Overheat/Draco Meteor...
 
I personally believe trick room teams to be among the best team archtype in the metagame, having a good matchup against everything except for stall variants.

Whcih would probably explain why I almost never see trick room.
 
Or you could just use dual-Screen Latios with Memento.. People expect an offensive set so they'll likely switch out to a slow-ish wall, allowing you get a free Screen up on the switch and another against their wall. Memento, of course, is to force a switch to help something set-up (I personally use it alongside Dragonite or Scrafty).
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The only problem with that is that stuff like Volcarona and Excadrill can start boosting while you screen. The nature of my teams are screener and 5 sweepers so nothing can have room to set up. Only 1 supporter and they lead and need SR. Memento helps, but stuff like swords dance can nab 2 boosts or even KO you before memento. Even +0 Volcarona with alot of special defense and speed is deadly. It can work in alot of situations but for full heavy offense deoxys is the best way to go.

Whcih would probably explain why I almost never see trick room.
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Yup many of the players on the top rungs are all using similar rain stall teams (Toed / Ferro / Chansey / Gliscor / x / x )
 
VaporeonIce said:
Superpower gives -1 attack each time you use it, meaning it goes 2/3 power, 1/2 power, 2/5 power, 1/3 power...so really, the total would look like this:

Superpower: 120 + 80 + 60 = 260 + 48 = 308 + 40 = 348

Brick Break:75 + 75 + 75 = 225 + 75 = 300 + 75 = 375

Of course, there are other issues with using Superpower; presumably, the opponent won't keep the same Pokemon in. Even though Superpower still does (slightly) more damage than Brick Break on the second turn, the Defense drop may require Scizor to switch out against something that outspeeds it after using Superpower, while it may have been able to weather the hit and retaliate with Brick Break. Basically, offensive sets (Choice Band especially) should run Superpower, since they're switching out all the time anyway. Defensive sets won't appreciate switching that much, and will want to keep their defenses up, so they're often better off using Brick Break. Swords Dance could sort of go either way, depending on the rest of your team and what you're trying to KO.
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Ah I actually did not know this. Learn something new every day I suppose.
 
Because of some issues we had with the tiers.xml, we had to edit them and re-add them to the server. Because of the pokemon that were allowed and also because when we reload the tiers the server will reset all ratings. We can't really fix that, but I'm pretty sure all the scripts and tiers, at this moment, though correct me if I'm wrong, are correct. The suspect process was basically "on-hold" due to the issues with our server being down and with the work of Sarenji, Aldaron, and BK getting up a new server (I helped too!!! So did Earthworm).

Anyway I'm not a suspect leader, but I'm pretty sure the suspect test are still on-hold for the time being. So I hope that answers everyone's questions about the suspect test.
 
Superpower is definately better than Brick Break on the CB set. You want to get a 2HKO with it, not a 3HKO. On the SD set. Brick Break is a superior option because you don't lose your boosts.
 
Superpower is actually better on the LO SD set. It lets you OHKO Skarmory after a boost and a bit of residual damage. If you aren't running LO, run alot of bulk, roost, and bullet punch / bug bite.
 
Both are viable but the drop isn't a big deal. You can either be phazed and walled or remove a counter and have a possible sweep, since -1 def doesn't matter most of the time when you have +1 LO priority.
 
Superpower > Brick Break. Brick Break is just too weak; CB Scizor switches out almost 99% of the time after the use of Superpower regardless. Brick Break has an extremely high chance of not even ohkoing Magnezone, a 0% chance to ko w/o Stealth Rock (if you predict it's switch-in correctly). LO Versions need Superpower because as Eggbert mentioned, killing Skarmory is a big deal. any other version of Scizor shouldnt even be running one of the two aforementioned moves, as Roost is clearly the better option on bulky SD sets.
 
Are you guys really still discussing HP Ice Terrakion Superpower vs Brick Break?
Anyways, SubCM Latias is as boss as ever (although the server reset is :/). Does anyone have any good partners for it? I ran a Trick Toxic Orb Gengar for a while that eliminated Latias's main counters (Ferro and Scizor died to HP Fire, TTar to Focus Blast, and Blissey and Chansey are crippled by Toxic Orb) but it's kind of frail. Lucario is also kind of a classic partner for Latias as they share good synergy and Lucario is good at eliminating the Steel-types Latias has issues with. 2HKOing Skarmory with LO Close Combat is also nice.

On a tangent, SD and NP Lucario both still work. SD Lucario gives sun teams in particular issues as it Extremespeeds Sun's frail sweepers to death as well as killing Volcarona with SR support. (what doesn't?) NP Lucario on the other hand hurts Sand teams more as it's not as easily revenged by Excadrill. I prefer SD Lucario because Excadrill is relatively easy to counter with Gliscor and Extremespeed is better for hitting the genies, but it's largely up to what support you can give it.
Another tangent: Does SD / Espeed / CC / Bullet Punch actually work?

tl;dr:

  • SubCM Latias partners
  • Thoughts on Lucario in this metagame?
 
SD Luke can beat almost everything with either of it's last coverage moves, but it is walled depending on what it runs (Ice punch beats gliscor / dragonite, crunch beats Jellicent, Mew, Reuniclus). So it's kinda like if you are running crunch and you see Gliscor, :(, then you run ice punch and see a Jellicent. Or both on the same team. Balloon for excadrill although extremespeed kinda sucks without life orb. I like NP luke alot better because of shadow ball hitting stuff that thinks it can beat luke, except its priority coverage isn't that good.

Latias like Magnezone. If scizor BPs, trap it (unless they get smart and double switch which happends alot due to team preview). Flash cannon lures ttar to where it can't stop Latias w/o scarf, but then it will have taken alot of damage without the bulk. SpD rachi: gone. Ferro, bronzong, forry (although latias beats them anyway), gone.
 
I don't know about SD/NP Luke being any good against offensive rain/sun teams at all, since he's slower than Ninetales and scarftoed and is far more frail than anything you'll see on either one of those teams. Lucario is one of the few pokemon I don't switch Ninetales out of.

He is, however, really good against stall variants, trick room teams, and sand. Nasty plot luke has already been discussed but the sword's dance set deserves discussion simply because of how great SD is. I run SD/Stone Edge/Close combat/Extreme Speed.

I run an adamant lucario. With all those max speed gliscor I've begun to see, I will never bother running timid or jolly ever again. You don't outspeed anything (iirc) And since I'm running a life orb over a balloon, I'm not gonna bother with Ice punch. You don't ohko dragonite before he paralyzes you, nor will anyone within their right mind set up on a pokemon who is known to carry priority. I've thought about carrying bullet punch over stone edge (which I carry for bulky volcorona and fighting+rock coverage), but in the end it was only hitting choice scarf tyranitar/terrakion.

As for partners for CM Latias, you should go for Dugtrio and Magnezone. Dugtrio is a bad pokemon, but some people seem to have gotten use out of him regardless. He also has an easier time dispatching tyranitar (he outspeeds jolly scarftar!) and heatran than magnezone ever will, and isn't screwed over by fire punch jirachi if you're running him on a rain team. I haven't actually tried this due to dugtrio sucking, but like I said, it should work. Magnezone can't handle everything, but dugtrio can take on what magnezone can't. Together, the only thing they can't remove for a SubCM Latias sweep is probably agility metagross. And not only is he easy to stop, nobody runs him anymore.
 
alphatron said:
As for partners for CM Latias, you should go for Dugtrio and Magnezone. Dugtrio is a bad pokemon, but some people seem to have gotten use out of him regardless. He also has an easier time dispatching tyranitar (he outspeeds jolly scarftar!) and heatran than magnezone ever will, and isn't screwed over by fire punch jirachi if you're running him on a rain team. I haven't actually tried this due to dugtrio sucking, but like I said, it should work. Magnezone can't handle everything, but dugtrio can take on what magnezone can't. Together, the only thing they can't remove for a SubCM Latias sweep is probably agility metagross. And not only is he easy to stop, nobody runs him anymore.
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I've been looking for another partner for my cm latias so i think i'll give dugtrio a whirl. Can you give me a good set for it? If it helps this is the latias set i've been using

Latias (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Roar
- Recover
- Dragon Pulse
 
If you have spin support or use it early game, focus sash dugtrio is actually really good. You don't need to predict or wait until something is KOd, just switch it into Heatran's sun boosted specs fire blast, or Tyranitar's 6+ LO crunch and revenge, although it won't OHKO Tyranitar. (CB doesn't either). I've gotten more use from it than CB dugtrio because it doesn't require any skill, just spinning.
 
You should mention that with sand being the popular damage dealing weather over hail, and with dugtrio being a ground type, that he can get away with using reversal. Sash reversal dugtrio can now kill politoed for sun teams that use him, and he can also dispatch any kind of tyranitar set. In most cases, the fighting/ground coverage is redundant, but it works here. You can still run Stone egde and sucker punch as dugtrio's other two attacks.

If you're not running focus sash dugtrio, go with choice band or life orb. While the LO set doesn't hit as hard, you can switch moves so that thundurus of all things doesn't turn you into setup fodder, and you can emergency memento after duggy has done his job.
 
About Lucario:

The standard Balloon-Nasty Plot-Vacuum Wave Lucario fails to do anything substantial outside of defeating choice threats and being apparently threatening towards sandstorm teams (by then there should be more than one Earthquake user there). In fact, with all the power-or-bust threats infesting the metagame as of now, I just can't see any kind of Lucario succeeding as a sweeper, even though you're packing specific counters to his own. (you're either trying to check Excadrill or hit Jellicent / Gliscor...)

Maybe it's simply my own indifference to actually fitting Lucario on a team where Mienshao or other boosting sweeper fit, and the fact that every opposing Lucario I've faced failed to uphold any threat. Even the standard Mienshao hits as hard or harder than your average Lucario.

Either way, Lucario may be an ideal partner to Latias, but it seems like an irrelevant threat otherwise.
 
Lucario is by no means an irrelevant threat, it's fall from 4th gen means a lot of people neglect to prepare for it, and as a result, get fucked when they see one. SD CC ES Ice Punch is probably the most effective since Gliscors are everywhere and Luke can lure it out for Excadrill or Terrakion to close off the match.
 
Speaking of meinshao. It's awesome. I tried to spam a team with 5 volt switch / u-turn users and it was actually pretty effective. Meinshao doesn't really care about LO damage or HJK misses and it wrecks the standard core.
 
Woodchuck said:
Does SD / Espeed / CC / Bullet Punch actually work?
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Gliscor, Slowbro and Jellicent counter that set. Stick with Crunch/Ice Punch.

Also, how is Conkeldurr doing currently? I don't see too many, which is a shame. It's a perfect counter to Tyranitar, fucks with Excadrill, and terrorizes everything else.

I think the problem is that most people don't use him correctly. You don't switch him into something that can't threaten him and start bulking up. You don't use him like a slow choice bander. You switch him in, then switch him out again. This does a few things. Firstly, it lures out his counters, which can be pressured with a double switch. Secondly, it shows the opponent that you have Conk on your team (bleh, team preview.) Conkeldurr's presence alone makes status a liability. Are you sure you want your Jellicent to WoW that Dragonite? How about paralyzing that scarfer threatening your Thundurus? Should your LO Excadrill use rock slide on Zapdos? Unless you have checks on hand, you simply cannot let him take status or set up, or he'll mow down your entire team. A statused +1 Conk has 936 Attack. +2 reaches 1248. That's roughly the same amount most pokes reach at +6. Unless you have a ghost type, drain punch alone can win you games.

And good luck trying to wall him. Unless you have Gliscor, Celebi or a strong special attacker, he can just bulk up once and wear you down with drain punch. Odds are he's restoring health faster than you can take it away.
 
You are right about conk actually. Bring conk in on ferrothorn, then switch to Rotom as they go to Gliscor / Skarmory or Tyranitar if they have Celebi / Reuniclus. Works like a charm.
 
On a tangent, Ferrothorn has slowly become quite underwhelming. It seems that every pokemon on Earth is carrying a fire or fighting move now. Things that Ferrothorn once solidly checked can now defeat it rather easily with things like Hidden Power Fire. Unlike Scizor, Ferro doesn't have much offensive potential and his low speed makes him vulnerable to the onslaught. Thundurus now almost always run Focus Blast, Latios now almost always run HP Fire. In terms of effectiveness in the metagame, and ability to check stuff, Ferrothorn is no longer #1, that honor belongs to either Scizor or Rotom-W.
 
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