Metagame np: PU Stage 1 - LA Devotee (Thievul Banned)

[zS]

Hi guys, I'm back with a few sets for every drops we had so that everyone can experiment them.

Swords Dance (Falinks) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- No Retreat/Poison Jab
- Close Combat
- Throat Chop

All out Attacker (Falinks) @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt/Rock Slide/First Impression
- Poison Jab
- Throat Chop

No Retreat (Falinks) @ Shed Shell/Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- No Retreat
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Throat Chop

I have to explain a few slashes I guess, on the Swords Dance set I was using SD + No Retreat because i felt confortable against shiinotic and getting omniboost + Swords Dance helps late game. Rock Slide is there for vespiqueen as zen headbutt is especially there for poison vally. If you are scared of using no retreat too much during a game I recommand shed shell on the 3rd set otherwise stick with life orb for extra damage.


Choice Specs (Appletun) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Apple Acid
- Giga Drain
- Recover/Dragon Pulse

Offensive Sub Seed (Appletun) @ Leftovers
Ae bility: Thick Fat
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Draco Meteor
- Apple Acid

Specially Defensive (Appletun) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Leech Seed
- Dragon Pulse
- Apple Acid

Only thing I have to explain here might be on the specs set. Even tho I slashed it I'd use dragon pulse but if you don't get to use it much just go for recover which gives extra staying power to the apple.


Bulky Spiner (Mr. Rime) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 248 HP / 84 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Slack Off
- Focus Blast
- Freeze-Dry

Choice Specs (Mr. Rime) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Focus Blast

Special Attacker (Mr. Rime) @ Life Orb
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
- Slack Off

Special Sweeper (Mr. Rime) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Rapid Spin
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast

Choice Scarf (Mr. Rime) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Healing Wish/Thunder Wave

There's a plenty of sets for that Pokemon, might be the best of all drops but all of his set are really easy to understand so I don't think I have to explain a lot of thing about them.



Bulky Spiner (Hitmontop) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Impish Nature
- Mach Punch
- Close Combat
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic

Choice Band (Hitmontop) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Aerial Ace

This might have more sets but those are the ones I've been using and I'm sure they work so I'm not posting anything else experimental. Speed investment on the first set is there to outspeed ada pawniard because mach punch doesn't kill at full.



Cotton Guard Sweeper (Dubwool) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 120 SpD / 32 Spe
Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Rest
- Body Press
- Payback

This might be the only viable set for Dubwool but it's really good so we don't need anything. The Spread is a bit complexe, the speed is there to outspeed adamant pawniard, 252 impish defense to have a really powerfull body press, and the other EVs are between hp and spd to take 3 Flamethrowers after rocks from classic vallies.

edit : I noticed that I had forgotten Crustle haha so I'm adding sets for it



Shell Smasher (Crustle) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Shell Smash
- X-Scissor/Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Bulky Stealth Rocks (Crustle) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 44 Def / 104 SpD / 52 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

First s/o gum for making that bulky crustle spread and for providing an explanation to it. Hp + Spd are there for +2 Mr. Rime, attack 2hkos poison vally, speed for non invested 50 bst speed like mawile and rest is in def.

I wanted just to dump a few sets not to explain them in detail so if you have any question contact me on either discord (zS#4060) or ps when I am on.

 

[kino]

Most relevant stuff has been brought up by Zs and I'll try not to overlap too much, but I figured I could add a few things

Dubwool @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 64 HP / 240 Def / 204 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Cotton Guard
- Sleep Talk
- Body Press

While I love the Spread zs posted, I think this can be somewhat relevant as well. Didn't work a lot on dedicated rolls so I guess this could be improved (64HP only being here to hit the jump point), but the whole point of this is outspeeding any based 70 speeds or lower w/ full investment. It's been kinda big for me while testing on ladder since we got quite a few 70 base speeds mons that might run max speed, notably Mr Rime, Hitmontop, Ludicolo and Stonejourner. Outspeeding those can prove crucial in some situations, since the former three might want to try and overpower Dubwool, especially in 1v1 scenarios.
Side note : go Bold > Impish on this if ur not running cheesy coverage > Sleep Talk, might as well take care of non existent in PU yet Foul Play

Falinks @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
- Megahorn
- Poison Jab / Rock Slide

Not sure how efficient that will be in the long run but I've had some success with it. Our fighting types are overall rather slow and this is the only true candidate for this kinda set. While this is not using Falinks greatest tools in No Retreat/Swords Dance, Its overall nice against offense to have a rather fast fighting type who can just click its stab and revenge kill stuff. Its speed tier is nothing to laugh at, letting it outspeed +1 Mr Rime, Fraxure, scarfed Stonjourner as well as some breakers around, notably the rather frail electric types

Despite this being ugly as hell, this is a really interesting tool. Its best set as far as I'm concerned might be the specs one, being able to decimate standard defensive cores thanks to its above decent offensive coverage down here. It still has some switchins, most notably klang and shiinotic so I don't believe its utterly broken ; but I'd still argue this is one of our most efficient breakers right now

Ive never had any success with the bulkier sets tho, but then uhuhuhu7 suggested me some cheese w/ body press

Appletun @ Leftovers / Yache Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Apple Acid

Pretty straightforward I believe. Iron defense + Body Press surprises a lot of stuff, from the breakers that'd like to overpower it on the physical side to ice/ steel types that'd want to come in for free. Apple Acid remains its best stab overall and the spread maximise Body Press damage.

Mr. Rime @ Choice Specs
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast / Ice Beam

Rather standard specs Rime set, the only thing I added is shadow ball, which mostly acts as SE coverage on opposing Mr Rime, Musharna, Beheyeem and Shedinja Dusclops. Might be unecessary in most cases but it's still an interesting option in my opinion.

Last but not least I just wanted to add a little variating set for best somehow bug

Crustle @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Pretty straightforward as well, we just trade a coverage option for hazards. Can both be used as a dedicated HO lead with rocks or as a win condition that can also set up hazards for a cleaner (u'd most likely go spikes in this case)

Enjoying these drops so far, I hope to see some cool techs come out of this big metagame shift. Hope u'll enjoy playing with those as well!

 

[Baoba]

Falinks @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- Throat Chop
- Poison Jab / No Retreat

Not much to say about it. Relatively high base attack, 120 bp stab, a powerful priority and Defiant make Falinks a perfect candidate for a CB set. In the last slot you can choose either coverage or No Retreat in case you expect to switch on knock off users.

 

[Leni]

Hello,

I will go straight into the business what council is looking after right now:
PU took a big left turn with latest drops that are somewhat amazing for the tier, but are them too much? Would be great to hear more thoughts especially on Mr. Rime, Falinks and Appletun. Also PU's Silvally issue hasn't disappeared and would be cool to hear thoughts on fighting & poison.

Silvallys doesnt need too much introducing at this point. All of them seems to do the same thing after the "better" silvally steps aside and start centralizing and cleaning the tier. Are these still fine or...? This is starting to applying on every silvally, but arguably poison and fighting are top of the pack right now.

And the new drops;

-Mr. Rime brings great stats and movepool which means it can almost run unlimited amount of sets (specs, scarf, offensive/defensive spinner, HW support, 4atk, AV and so on). Looks mostly like a Glaceon 2.0 that can glue any team together.

-Falinks has way more limited move pool than Mr Rime for example, but is also way more straight forward offensively. Cleaner on its best which often can be hold on back until gourgeists/musharnas colbur berry is activated.

-And then last but definitely not the least Appletun. This thing seems to be unkillable and capable of running plenty of different sets. Eg. Specs, defensive wall, set up cleaner (iron defense-bodypress-recover-amnesia as example). Defensive stats 110/80/80 and ability of thick fat makes this mon incredibly fat where as base 100spatk apple acid into draco meteors hits back very hard. Apple acid with its respective guaranteed spdef drop allows appletun to break its counters eg. shiinotic.

There is already above good amount of sets posted which can be used to test latest drops. This would be a great time to post if you're looking to contribute to/influence PU tiering before we move on. You might have not have had time to play with all the drops, but the ones you have clear view, feel free posting about your experiences,

Cheers guys!

 

[gum]

hi ppl, thought i'd make a post covering some of the drops + the silvallies, as these seem to be the main topic of conversation on both discord and the pu room. also just as a warning im writing this post at 9am and i havent slept yet so sorry for any grammar mistakes.




so i think mr. rime is definitely the biggest and more pressing issue; between its above-average bulk, access to nasty plot, decent offensive typing, and vast offensive movepool nothing really reliably deals with it. as far as defensive answers go, it really has none due to how stupidly hard it hits after a nasty plot. i know TJ has used a more defensive spread w/ toxic to deal with opposing mr. rimes but i think that just adds to how versatile this pokémon is, and +4 focus blast kills anyway. i've found pressuring it offensively with pokémon like first impression falinks and sd silvally forms to be much more effective, although most silvallies lose to nasty plot + rapid spin variants. this leads me to how unpredictable it is - it's pretty hard to decipher what set it runs based on team preview alone, which makes it able to bluff a choice scarf against poisonvally or non-no retreat falinks just to be specs or rapid spin and gain a free turn to launch a powerful psychic / ice beam or remove hazards. this kinda makes it similar to silvally in a way; you're doing more harm than good to yourself by not using it due to how splashable it is. however, i still think it's manageable to a certain extent and isn't as quite threatening in practice - partly due to how unreliable its coverage can be. it's also somewhat healthy, bringing teams with an offensive rapid spin user able to pressure gourgeist. i dont think it's quickban worthy, yes it is a huge threat but we have some tools to deal with it. it's also only been 5 days and this has been a huge tier shift; it's mostly an entirely different metagame than 2 weeks ago. we might see some answers to it, like av dusknoir, spdef metal burst mawile, or maybe even spdef crustle rise. i know it's only been a month since alpha, but i think this should potentially get suspect tested, along with appletun and maybe even falinks / poisonvally. i think getting suspect tests would be better due to how divided the community is on these threats.




the apple is another big issue, mainly due to how stupid apple acid is. im a big fan of the offensive subseed set mainly due to how much opportunities you get to set a substitute up, making it even harder to play around apple acid. the specs set is also amazing rn, with it beating shiinotic and having pretty much no actual switchins outside of klang. specs draco is also a pretty stupid move and it's risk-free against team relying on mawile to switch into dragon-types. i dont think appletun would be even close to being an issue if it wasnt for its tremendous bulk, especially for an offensive pokémon. this, combined with thick fat, make it actually really hard to revenge kill while also allowing it to take advantage of commons threats like manectric. this just gives it so much opportunities to come in and wallbreak / be an annoyance. similarly to mr. rime, it's pretty versatile, with viable sets ranging from choice specs to double dance sets with iron defense + amnesia, which also means it has no counters. yeah, each set loses to its own thing but it puts a huge amount of pressure on team preview. similarly again to mr. rime, i just dont think it's enough of a threat to ban just now. it brings a lot defensively and it can be easy to put it in range of moves like mr. rime's ice beam or falinks's close combat / megahorn.




i really dont think this is an issue? from my personal experience and from the games i watched the no retreat set is usually a pretty underwhelming cleaner, and i dont consider it to be too much. you usually end up picking what you lose to because it wants all of sd + poison jab + throat chop + megahorn + rock slide. yeah, you have 5 other teammates but you cant effectively cover all of no retreat falinks's answers, and you could make this argument for a lot of other pokémon anyway. at +1 it's still somewhat slow, being slower than common scarf users like manectric and mr. mime. i personally enjoy life orb 4 attacks with first impression. revenge killing mr. rime / crustle / other stuff while being a decent wallbreaker is pretty useful in this very offense-oriented meta. choice scarf is also a pretty fun set (s/o keppy) that can definitely do stuff thanks to its speed tier. being faster than choice scarf mr. rime and stonjourner is very appreciated for example, but laevin already explained what it does so yeah. in general i'd just say i find falinks (and especially no retreat sets) to be much more threatening on paper than in practice, and the tier definitely has enough tools to deal with it.




putting these two in the same bag might be weird but i dont think either of them are the biggest issue right now. poisonvally can get past all of its checks depending on what it runs, same goes with fightingvally. however, i think the former is actually pretty healthy for the tier right now - it's a capable fighting resist able to defog and pivot. the latter is kinda held back by how prevalent poisonvally is, forcing swords dance sets to run psychic fangs on most teams. i could see them being bigger issues in the future, but for now i think both are fine.

ok that's all, ty for reading!!

 

[EviGaro]

I have some random musings over this new meta, or like HJAD would call it "going philosophical", so bear with me for a second.

I don't think any of the drops are actually broken, but it's not necessarily why I really think none of them should be banned. Having played some PU since the beginning of the gen with some consistency, what appeared problematic for me considering the nature of the tier isn't so much that a lot of mons were clearly broken, but rather that it had no clear foundation to make the tier work. If you look at every other tier, all of them had obvious balancing issues, but the tiers themselves are actually quite similar throughout the generation on a foundational basis. PU did not have that luxury, good team structure often goes out the window because there's a lot of mons that are simply too overbearing, and hardly anything stops a game from becoming a threat vs threat as deciding factor. Rockers are way too poor, removal is farcical, and some types just flatout have no good representation. As such, the tier is stuck between mons that you have to run for team composition but are terrible and stuff that is so obviously overbearing that building in this tier has been since the get go a total crapshoot.

Enter this shift, and I think there's the start of a difference. Yes, it's been said that teams are now very similar, albeit this is strongly a generational issue at the moment. Yes, threats are still omnipresent, but... There's also signs of a metagame here. All those drops are strong, obviously, but there's a lot of roles that they now fill and add to the tier. All are strong, but they also considerably up the level of the tier. While broken checking broken isn't a good philosophy, I don't believe it apply to this, having strong stuff to center around a metagame is generally a positive thing, and honestly it feels a lot more concrete this month than any previous month. I also think that keeping these mons is a lot more helpful moving forward: we can "retest" when the DLCs come back, but that should not be used as a method to remove anything potentially problematic, as there's no realistic timeline for retesting everything and why not instead, accept the fact that this metagame will centralize over new threats, but by having them... We might also be able to handle newer drops better? We tier for a metagame, not future ones, sure, but like I said I don't think the drops make the tier really unplayable in any way, and none of them cleanly break teambuilding. Rime is great and diverse, but suffers from an horrid typing can get tripped up in the roles it wants to play on a team. Falinks is really dang good, but has to decide in the builder between a lot of options it wants. Appletun is cute and really I feel it's overexaggerated, Body Press sets have in nearly every tier ended up being meh once people realize it's not that difficult to prep against them. Offensive is good, but has a myriad of issues in an high octane meta and defensive can get abused pretty easily as well, its typing doesn't have a lot of obvious weaknesses but on the other side it has very little great resists.

Not to say there isn't problems though. Silvally is borderline comical again to me, no matter the type. At this point, now that it's been like five Silvally that have been removed and we still say "maybe the next one won't be as broken!" but it obviously is, maybe it's just time to accept the inevitable. Silvally is, with the lack of consistent utility mons, the biggest factor explaining why this tier cannot develop a solid metagame, as almost invariably teambuilding is stressed hard by having multiple ways of handling this thing and often failing in game if one thing goes wrong. I suppose I wouldn't mind seeing Poison and Fight go if banning all is not really in the plans but I have zero expectation of that actually fixing the problem.

 

[Akir]

Appletun, Silvally-Fighting, and Silvally-Poison are now banned from PU!

 

[zS]

Hi, I wanted to share my opinion on the different bans and the effect that those would have on the metagame. Idk If I need to say it but this is my opinion and only my opinion so please don't yell at me if you disagree. That being said, let's start:

Appletun

​

Sets

Choice Specs (Appletun) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 8 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 244 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Apple Acid
- Giga Drain
- Recover / Dragon Pulse

Offensive Sub Seed (Appletun) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Draco Meteor
- Apple Acid
Iron Defense (Appletun) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Apple Acid

​

​

Council's Reasoning

Appletun was a complete menace offensively and defensively. Apple Acid made for an incredible STAB move since few defensive checks can withstand constant Special Defense drops. Add on 100 SpA Draco Meteors and you've got something capable of breaking 90% of the tier without much effort. Defensively, Appletun had few weaknesses and excellent resistances (bolstered by Thick Fat) plus access to multiple amazing utility moves in Iron Defense, Amnesia, Leech Seed, and Recover. Very few Pokemon could claim to be able to reliably KO all defensive sets, with Body Press being a final nail in the coffin that could nail the occasional Steel- and Ice-types trying to switch in.

My Opinion:​

I completely agree with this ban I really thought that appletun was banworthy ever since it dropped from NU. This pokemon reminds me of drampa. It has no switch in or almost because with the special defense drop brought by its signature attack apple acid nullifies the possibility of checking it. Moreover, his ability Thick Fat and his general bulk allowed it to take on the enemies' attacks and retaliate with the very little resisted Draco Meteor and the mentioned above Apple Acid.

Pokémons that benefit from this Ban

All out Attacker (Gourgeist) @ Life Orb
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Power Whip
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Sneak
- Rock Slide / Explosion

Choice (Manectric) @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat / Flamethrower
- Switcheroo

Swords Dance (Leafeon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
- Knock Off
- Leaf Blade​

I will only take 3 examples for each of the banned pokemon and I know for a fact that they are not the only ones that benefit from the ban. Gourgeist was a setup fodder for appletun. Unless it uses Explosion it did not deal any damage to the apple and gave it an opening to click draco meteor or apple acid. Manectric had the same problems as Gourgeist. it was a set up fodder that unless you used volt switch guaranteed a free attack to the pie which was often devastating. Leafeon was forced to run X-Scissor if you wanted to kill appletun efficiently. Now that it's ban, this SD leafeon set will get another chance to shine and this is not the only factor that makes me think that.

Silvally Poison|Silvally Fighting​

Sets

Defog (Silvally-Poison) @ Poison Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Multi-Attack
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
Swords Dance (Silvally-Poison) @ Poison Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flame Charge / Flamethrower
- Multi-Attack
- U-turn / Psychic Fangs / Surf

​

​

Set

Swords Dance (Silvally-Fighting) @ Fighting Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch

​

​

Council's Reasoning

Silvally-Poison and Silvally-Fighting both sported incredibly powerful STAB attacks, solid boosting options in Flame Charge and Swords Dance, fantastic bulk and Speed, and the ability to break practically every potential counter with very slight moveset variations that had little impact to their wallbreaking ability. Special sets also began to take off as potent lures to the few would-be counters, cementing their place as the next two overpowered Silvally forms to be banned.

My Opinion​

Here is where I start to disagree a bit. Silvally-Fighting being banned was really obvious to me it was a really dangerous sweeper with an insane bulk and STABBED Close Combat but without the drawbacks. Add to that a perfect coverage and you get a broken pokemon. I have to agree that SD Silvally Poison was broken, But I felt that he was one of the pillars of the tier, one of the pokemon who were certainly too strong but which allowed to contain certain threats and bring a usefulness to the team. It was a great fogger and a fighting resist we could rely on. Now that it's banned, I think a lot of Pokemon will become really dangerous and I can easily see falinks being the next target of the council now that one of its few offensive checks is banned.

Pokémons that benefit from this Bans

Physically Defensive (Mareanie) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Scald / Knock Off
- Haze

Offensive (Pawniard) @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head

Dubwool @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 120 SpD / 32 Spe
Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Rest
- Body Press
- Sleep Talk​

I put Mareanie as a pokemon representative of the toxic spikes setters. With the ban of silvally poison tspikes will be much easier to put which will help the Pokémon that I will mention next namely Dubwool and Pawniard. Pawniard loses 2 resistances at Knock Off because the Silvallies did not lose objects and Dubwool loses a Fighting Resist and a "check" because after a swords dance Silvally Fighting could win the 1v1 against it.
Alright, thanks for reading it took me a long hour to cover everything I wanted to cover even tho I explained myself only real quick. If you have any question or you disagree with me i'm looking forward to your arguments and I wish you could prove me wrong but please if you want to complain about Something Just Don't come without any argument. After that little disclaimer, I'm waiting for your opinions. Cya.

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

with appletun's ban, it is now sliggoo time.

Sliggoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Acid Spray
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Sludge Wave

This set is focused around wallbreaking with Acid Spray. All its other moves are for coverage or STAB.

Sliggoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 96 Atk / 160 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Rock Slide
- Outrage
- Acid Armor

This set is much more niche, but its purpose is to be a Curse Sweeper.

 

[Chandell]

RestTalk Sliggoo is all I'm going to say, that thing is a beast when it comes to walling special attackers. Was absolutely amazing in the previous gens, but we don't have as many potent special attackers down here so it probably will be less effective than it used to be.

 

[Bob Barker's Ghost]

So Idk if this is on anyone else's radar, but I think Dubwool is incredibly unhealthy for the metagame right now. It didn't seem like a huge problem at first, but I've found that it heavily restricts teambuilding and is very anti-competitive in general. Here's the Dubwool set that I've found a lot of people running:

Dubwool @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 152 Spe
Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Body Press
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Dubwool is such a threat because it invalidates any physical attacker and practically all defensive pokemon. Dubwool can be taken out only by a few types of pokemon: Special wall breakers, Ghost types, Psychic pokemon with taunt, Hazer's with recovery, or pokemon with lucky/well-timed trick/switcheroo. As you can see, many of these answers are highly situational, or simply not viable in the metagame. In addition, other breakers just auto-lose due to typing like Lapras and Glaceon. For example, another pokemon that many people consider to be overpowered, Mr. Rime, fails to deal with Dubwool effectively. Here's a relevant Mr. Rime calc:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Mr. Rime Psychic vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Dubwool: 235-277 (75.5 - 89%)

As you can see, even choice specs Rime fails to OHKO this set. In return, Dubwool at +3 def almost nabs a kill:

+3 252+ Def Dubwool Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Rime: 253-298 (84 - 99%)

This means that if Rime has ANY chip it loses the 1v1 without Focus Blast. Another pokemon that seems like a good answer to Dubwool, Throh, also fails to reliably kill Dubwool without flame orb and storm throw. Pokemon that can successfully beat Dubwool are: Beheyeem, Gourgeist, Musharna, Shiinotic, Gothitelle, Drakloak, Mareanie, Togetic, Vespiquen, Meowstic, Gastly, Dusclops, Dusknoir, and Trevenant. As you can see, many of these pokemon are very niche and struggle to be viable in normal play. The problem with Dubwool is exacerbated by the fact that if you don't have one of these pokemon on your team (and you don't get lucky) you auto-lose. Another big issue with many of these counters is that they force the opponent to PP stall. One of the best Dubwool counters, Gourgeist, finds itself unable to kill without a special variant. Here is a replay from a tournament I just played that shows how frustrating Dubwool 1v1s can become:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1116857999 (As you can see the Dubwool forced a drawn-out confrontation at the end)

This problem is consistent across the board for almost all of Dubwool's ghost type counters. Not only that, but Dubwool can outplay and cripple opponent"s checks with thunder wave. Overall I think this Pokemon is broken and should be suspect tested/banned. Even if you don't think it's overpowered, it can't be denied that Dubwool is uncompetitive and very frustrating to play against. for these reasons, I think that Dubwool needs to suspect tested or Banned.

 

[Akir]

Hello everyone! So the council is leaning towards trying to be a bit more transparent to keep everyone else in the loop of what we are cooking up. However, we cannot agree on how we would like to do this. There's Untier Talk and the idea of Council Minutes has been thrown around, but even so we want to do something more. So here is attempt #1: a brief newsletter.

Council Happenings
​

Meta Discussion:

• The primary point of discussion is in what we have started to refer to as "Dubwool Meta". While we are happy with the metagame slowing down somewhat, and moreso happy that the meta seems to finally be settling into a stable state, the presence of Dubwool is a point of contention. We are not a fan of the impact Dubwool has. A setup sweeper that demands that you have a solid answer to it at any given point of a match is horrid so you can expect Dubwool to be on the next voting slate. There have been improvements in tech for fighting Dubwool, like the increased presence and viability of anything Ghost, but we feel as though this is not enough...and the strain of constantly having to both have one and keep it alive through a match is not ideal.
• There is also the continued discussion of "the Silvally Problem", in which we have not been able to reach a consensus over. The idea of simply banning every single Silvally has been put on the table since Alpha, but there is a greater portion of the council that wanted to give every Silvally due process. As we are slowly whittling down every possible Silvally we may end up banning every Silvally either way, but these current Silvally feel slightly less oppressive than the previous ones. The question that I have been working under has been "How much Silvally is too much Silvally?". There is no question that Silvally brings a lot of cohesion to teams, but their sweeping potential in the aggressively offensive metagame we have had so far has usually been too much for what kind of meta we have been aiming for.

VR and Other Votes:

• The next VR Update is in the works now, and should be completed either later tonight or tomorrow. The next Voting Slate for bans will then be drafted shortly afterward, so you can expect that to be completed either later this week or early next week.
• The last tidbit of information we have is that the council has been discussing eliminating the D rank from the VR entirely. The reason for this is because the move of a mon from D to C- is so incrementally small that it is almost irrelevant. Many of the mons in the D rank are also barely worth mention in the first place, and the justification that they receive by having a rank is sometimes undue. So if we were to do this, the current D rank mons would either be moved to C- or they will be unranked entirely.

Forum Happenings:

• Some threads are currently being saved for when we leave Beta and the mons list becomes more stable, i.e. Good Cores and other informational threads like that. However, we are ok with pushing out some less formal threads like Battle of the Week if you are interested in having a thread.
• Kickoff will extend through June, and PUPL Manager Signups will actually be very soon (aiming for a June start). However, we are currently fairly low on less-serious subforum tournaments and hosts. If you have an idea for one you would like to host in around August, just talk to me and we can discuss specifics.
• Editing this in late but we are still looking for sample teams! Because the format is constantly changing so much, how strict my requirements are have been relaxed. So long as the team is good and reflects the meta as it currently is, it has a good chance of being chosen.

See you all next week!

 

[mattnic1234]

Regarding the Dubwool Meta, I feel that ghost types and some physical defensive psychic types for sure helps a lot to deal with it, so I think its fine for now. Ghosts and defensive psychic arent that uncommon even before Dubwool dropped, so its not like people are only now using them specifically for Dubwool. Considering the DLC comes out in about a month and a half from now with move tutors, that might make its movepool better for dealing with its common counters and then it will end up being an actual problem, so I say we wait for now before we do anything about it honestly.

 

[Pabloaram]

A good Fighting resist was a must in most team bc before the drops. , and increase the necesity in this new "meta". This is why i dont see a huge change...
About the problem í think the posibilty of banning all is real. Most because of the offensive preasure. Rn the "better" vally are psychic, bug and Rock..
I am using psyvally under web rn...

 

[SergioRules]

The first round of DLC comes out next month if not delayed by the current situation, so I'll bring back my list of returning mons and the new moves they get in Sword and Shield from TMs and TRs as found in the Pokemon Home datamine. This time I'll be separating them into the different DLC packs they're confirmed for and making a separate list for Pokemon that aren't confirmed to be returning but have new moves.
This is not a list of mons that are definitely going to be PU, but rather a list of mons that have been PU in the past and therefore may have a chance of returning to the tier.
As always, if you wish to avoid spoilers, don't click on the lists.
6/19 Update: Adding tutor moves in bold if relevant to the mon

Confirmed in Isle of Armor

Spikes, Agility, Scorching Sands (Kanto only), Triple Axel (Alola only)
Self-Destruct, Draining Kiss, Misty Explosion
does NOT get NP or Aura Sphere Flip Turn
Drain Punch, Superpower, Muddy Water, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, Liquidation, Earth Power
Grassy Glide, Expanding Force (Kanto only)


High Horsepower
Lash Out
Liquidation, Earth Power
Body Press
Play Rough, Psychic Fangs, Agility
Play Rough, Close Combat, Acrobatics, U-turn, Reversal
Hydro Pump, Body Press
Pollen Puff
Scorching Sands
Energy Ball, Rising Voltage
Body Slam, Close Combat
Dual Wingbeat
Rising Voltage
Play Rough, Rock Blast, Close Combat, Psychic Fangs
Bullet Seed, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Grassy Glide

Confirmed in Crown Tundra

Weather Ball, Icicle Spear, Brave Bird
Rock Blast, Body Press

Close Combat
Swords Dance, Icicle Spear, Hydro Pump, Heavy Slam, Liquidation, Body Press
Rock Blast, Liquidation, Body Press
Cosmic Power
Rock Blast, Body Press

Weather Ball, Darkest Lariat
Mysical Fire, Weather Ball
Drain Punch, Draining Kiss, Encore, Nasty Plot, Stored Power, Play Rough
Protect, Rest, Darkest Lariat, Heat Crash, Body Press
Self-Destruct
Weather Ball, Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Body Slam

Others with New Moves

Close Combat, Psychic Fangs
Beat Up, Body Slam, Close Combat, Psychic Fangs
Brave Bird
Body Slam
Self-Destruct, Draining Kiss
Future Sight, Stored Power
Rock Blast, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Razor Shell
Nasty Plot, Psychic Fangs
Heat Crash
Nasty Plot
Superpower (legal with Rapid Spin)
Power Whip
Rock Blast, Power Whip
Hex, Phantom Force
Future Sight, Heavy Slam, Body Press
Body Slam
Rock Blast, Razor Shell
Charm, Body Press
Body Slam, Heat Crash, Body Press

 

[Jespoke]

Keep in mind about the DLC that this far down the tiers, there will be 4 months before any new Pokemon make it down here. So for the foreseeable future, the only DLC that is actually gonna affect us is new moveset additions. It will probably only cause some small shifts, until the real impact comes way later.

 

[rien]

Keep in mind about the DLC that this far down the tiers, there will be 4 months before any new Pokemon make it down here. So for the foreseeable future, the only DLC that is actually gonna affect us is new moveset additions. It will probably only cause some small shifts, until the real impact comes way later.

Tiering policy regarding NFEs is still not fully clear, but the most likely scenario is that any NFEs that were tiered PU or higher (e.g Chansey, Scyther, Tangela etc) during SM will start off in OU this gen, and the rest (including some pretty notable ones that weren't PU by usage last gen but had some impact on the meta, like Combusken, Metang, Servine etc) will start off untiered, meaning that they will be usable in PU from the very beginning. Considering the current state of the meta where the power level is low and plenty of NFEs are dominant, the DLCs are going to have a very considerable impact the moment they get released.

 

[Gerard]

Tiering policy regarding NFEs is still not fully clear, but the most likely scenario is that any NFEs that were tiered PU or higher (e.g Chansey, Scyther, Tangela etc) during SM will start off in OU this gen

Will they? Slowpoke felt down naturally through all the tiers even when it had no usage anywhere.

 

[rien]

Will they? Slowpoke felt down naturally through all the tiers even when it had no usage anywhere.

Slowpoke cannot evolve (or even use eviolite) right now so it's considered to be fully evolved and is tiered accordingly.

 

[zS]

Alright hello guys I'm back for a new post that will deal with the topic that is on everyone's lips since it dropped in the tier:

Set

Dubwool @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 80 SpD / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Rest
- Body Press
- Sleep Talk/Agility/Substitute

This pokemon is much talked about because many players find it broken. The main argument I have heard against Dubwool is that it forces the use of some Pokemon in particular to avoid losing against it. People say that Dubwool has increased in popularity some Pokemon that would not have had any niche if the sheep had never dropped.

But here's my opinion on this. I think it's not Dubwool that caused this rise in popularity of ghosts and psychics but precisely the fact that we had Hitmontop and Falinks that were added to the list of powerful fighting types of the tier. You do not need a Fighting resist to check Dubwool in my opinion, you need Fighting resists to handle Falinks, Throh, Hitmontop, Dubwool and Grapploct to a certain extend. I know Dubwool can be considered as unhealthy by a lot of people and just isn't funny to face at all, But Dubwool being a slow set-up Sweeper makes it a lot easier to pressure. If you add that to the fact that he has 2 really common coverage weaknesses and that it's a one trick pony mon which means that when you see a Dubwool in your opponent's team you know from team preview which set you're going to face. Moreover, Manectric and M. Mime are really prominent recently and both usually run Trick/Switcheroo on their sets which forces out a scared Dubwool that doesn't want to get Tricked. Last but not least argument that I'm gonna talk about here is Rest. Dubwool being forced to use Rest to stay Healthy during a game makes it in a certain way not hard to abuse. Relying on 1/3 chance to get an offensive move is bad honnestly and some sets don't even use Sleep Talk as a last slot which makes Dubwool a free switch in to common special wallbreakers that are just going to straight 2hko it and force it to rest again to avoid being revenge killed. If you change the spread to have actually more special bulk, your only move isn't going to do enough damage to win some duels against mons that Dubwool is supposed to win against. First example that comes to my head is offensive Roselia that is just going to win the 1v1 if you don't have enough defense investment to 2hko it at +3.

Alright guys thanks for reading me and I'm looking forward to your arguments! C ya

 

[Pabloaram]

Alright hello guys I'm back for a new post that will deal with the topic that is on everyone's lips since it dropped in the tier:

Set

Dubwool @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 80 SpD / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Rest
- Body Press
- Sleep Talk/Agility/Substitute

This pokemon is much talked about because many players find it broken. The main argument I have heard against Dubwool is that it forces the use of some Pokemon in particular to avoid losing against it. People say that Dubwool has increased in popularity some Pokemon that would not have had any niche if the sheep had never dropped.

But here's my opinion on this. I think it's not Dubwool that caused this rise in popularity of ghosts and psychics but precisely the fact that we had Hitmontop and Falinks that were added to the list of powerful fighting types of the tier. You do not need a Fighting resist to check Dubwool in my opinion, you need Fighting resists to handle Falinks, Throh, Hitmontop, Dubwool and Grapploct to a certain extend. I know Dubwool can be considered as unhealthy by a lot of people and just isn't funny to face at all, But Dubwool being a slow set-up Sweeper makes it a lot easier to pressure. If you add that to the fact that he has 2 really common coverage weaknesses and that it's a one trick pony mon which means that when you see a Dubwool in your opponent's team you know from team preview which set you're going to face. Moreover, Manectric and M. Mime are really prominent recently and both usually run Trick/Switcheroo on their sets which forces out a scared Dubwool that doesn't want to get Tricked. Last but not least argument that I'm gonna talk about here is Rest. Dubwool being forced to use Rest to stay Healthy during a game makes it in a certain way not hard to abuse. Relying on 1/3 chance to get an offensive move is bad honnestly and some sets don't even use Sleep Talk as a last slot which makes Dubwool a free switch in to common special wallbreakers that are just going to straight 2hko it and force it to rest again to avoid being revenge killed. If you change the spread to have actually more special bulk, your only move isn't going to do enough damage to win some duels against mons that Dubwool is supposed to win against. First example that comes to my head is offensive Roselia that is just going to win the 1v1 if you don't have enough defense investment to 2hko it at +3.

Alright guys thanks for reading me and I'm looking forward to your arguments! C ya
View attachment 248116

need to much support to play around his counter. Many people are using toxic spikes (tranks to poisonvally ban) and knock off lure to win again most fighting resist in a the tier plagued with fighting resist: Evio Poison (, , ), Fat Psychics (, ), , , . I am using wich hard counter making him setup fodder.

Talking about the ghostly swod

Honedge @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head

I am using this set wich let you set in , lacking Shadow Ball, , can spin block again defensive top. He is not the best thing but can work in this meta like is brother in UU...

 

[gum]

hi, i want to talk about an issue that has been flying under the radar but i think could eventually develop to be a very problematic one depending on what we get / lose next tier shifts.

toxic spikes have always been good, but ever since poisonvally left the tier slapping a toxic spikes setter is easy as ever - especially since they provide so much more than just toxic spikes; mareanie is an excellent fighting answer and its access to support moves like haze and knock off just make it even better and allows it to punish defog and rapid spin users like mr. rime and vespiquen, while roselia's typing allows it to be threatening offensively and be surprisingly useful defensively. the biggest issue with toxic spikes is basically how they're centralizing the meta and forcing very similar builds, as you need a grounded poison-types and a defog or rapid spin user that does well against the common toxic spikes setters. it wouldn't be an issue if our grounded poison-types fit on multiple kind of teams, but sadly they don't and end up forcing similar team structures (ex: mareanie + mawile + type: null or roselia + palpitoad + hitmontop kind of teams). our two best grounded poison-types also happen to set toxic spikes themselves, often making it a war of who can pressure the opposing poison-type the best, and can overshadow other poison-types. but that's just the tip of the iceberg; they make some pokémon considerably better and make some worse (especially the latter) just by existing.

obviously, i don't think anything should be done before the upcoming tiershifts, and maybe even before the dlc but i also want to bring some attention to this topic as i've some talk in the pu room, ty for reading!

 

[Ktütverde]

The Budwool vs Dumbwool talk
-by Ktütverde , Specs , tlenit1 , Urusius , Skipkan , TJ , 2xTheTap

Hey guys! (Yes, it’s me). I’m Ktut and today I’m posting something big (but beautiful) on behalf of a group of PU fans: Specs, Tlenit, Uru, Skip, 2x, TJ, and myself. It is a collective discussion on the Dubwool case, mainly in order to make up for the lack of activity in the meta discussion thread. We would like to provide you with a detailed, constructive post aiming at covering all the aspects of Dubwool in SSPU. As a group we all have different opinions, but this post isn’t about 7 independent opinions gathered in one single post. No, it’s the result of each of us submitting their own opinion on Dubwool, and then everyone else discussing it, suggesting some changes that would nuance it better. Our goal was to find a common ground between all of us, and while diverse, our final dubmissions, wait no, submissions, all succeeded in “agreeing” more or less with the other ones. So that instead of creating division and having say, two groups (one pro-ban, one anti-ban), we only have one group which will agree on an “objective” and “nuanced” view of Dubwool, which, we hope, you guys can also support (a bit or a lot) naturally after reading this post. Maybe it’s not clear. So just read it, and you will probably feel that everyone in the group managed to realize that nothing about Dubwool is black or white (well, it actually is white wool on a black body), and that there’s a... symbiosis that surfaces when all the parts are put together.

Let’s go! (Posts are in chronological order, and they do flow well together).

Tlenit1

Hide

Dubwool thoughts: After latest bans happened, it benefited dubwool and left it in position to "do its thing" with body press. Why Dubwool could be problematic? Dubwool does rely on support, but if you manage just to Toxic a Ghost type, that hard walls it, it often means that Dubwool can out stall the opponent and win from there as their check has been disabled. +3 Body press makes a good amount of damage against anything that doesn’t resist Fighting. Dubwool’s counter list has gotten larger due to latest bans meaning eg. Mareanie and Gloom have seen more usage and make Dubwool’s life harder. To be able to kill or revenge kill Dubwool you need a special attacker. Happily Dubwool is slower than Silvallys and faster Pokemon eg. Raichu, Manectric, Mr Mime. These are popular options. Other than faster mons, fat psychics like Beheeyem and Musharna can also abuse Dubwool. Biggest thought im baffling with Dubwool is, if a meta based on a "physically unkillable" mon is something we really want to present. All in all, Dubwool being hit or miss and the lack of clarity right now as to whether it centralizes teambuilding too much are questions worth of considering before making the calls.

Skipkan

Hide

While Dubwool seems to be one of the most restraining mons with its bulk, unique way of setting up and annoying PP-battles, I think this meta is far more centralized around other now drops: Mr. Rime and Falinks, along with other Fighting- and Psychic- types and T-Spikes. The prominence of these does not benefit Dubwool at all. Most Pokémon that are used to beat Fighting-types -ie, Ghosts and Psychics- counter Dubwool without any issues -actually, they beat Dubwool even more reliably than all the Falinkses and Throhs themselves, as Bodypress doesn’t scare them at all. However there is the T-Spikes issue, since Dubwool can use them to break past -or successfully PPstall them our of recovery moves - said Ghosts and Psychics, notably Gourgeist and Musharna. Still, said T-spikes are a double-edged sword: while Dubwool loves T-Spikes support and can be deadly vs teams unprepared for this combo, switching on them forces Dubwool itself to Rest (and run Rest, in the first place). Dubwool also can't touch most T-Spikes setters, especially Mareanie. More often than not, you can simply check Dubwool with the combination of a T-spikes remover (Mareanie, Roselia, and Mr Rime always do it reliably) and your Fighting- types answer which you'd have to use anyway: Gourgeist, Beheeyem, the increasingly popular Dusclops and Mareanie. Manectric and other strong special attackers and Trick/Switcheroo users work well too. Dubwool also isn't just a sweeper that steamrolls unprepared teams - it is also a valuable physical blanket check that can deal with otherwise problematic Pokémon such as Pawniard-.

Urusius

Hide

Defense boosting sweepers seem to be a recurrent problem down here in PU. It's so true that we can even see that argument in the explanation post of Appletun’s ban by the council. Also, remember when in early/mid-SMPU CM+Barrier Musharna and SD+IronDefense Type:Null could end teams from turn one and were deemed broken for a while, but eventually disappeared from the metagame since they happened to be ineffective vs moderately prepared teams? Indeed, we ended up keeping them and we never really heard of them being unbearable to deal with at the end of the gen. I know we're no longer in gen 7, but still, we have a lot of answers to RestTalk Dubwool in this meta. Stuff like Ghost-types, Mareanie or Storm Throw/Circle Throw Throh, all kinds of powerful special attacks in general and strong special breakers (Manectric, most Psychics..) are usually enough to prevent Dubwool from functionning correctly. Psychic types are already needed to check Fightings, and they happen to resist boosted Bodypress and hit Dubwool very hard in return, sometimes even using it as setup fodder (Musharna, Beheeyem). Switcheroo/Trick or Encore and Taunt can really annoy the setup of Dubwool. Some people view these answers (notably the use of Ghosts and Psychics) as too niche/situational or being a result of Dubwool centralization, but is it really? Teambuilding is not a lazy art and adapting to a threat is something normal, that can take some time. It doesn't mean Dubwool is broken, just that it is very good or at least that it can pressure well most of builds. Though I agree that Dubwool can be really dumb in the right conditions, especially because of Fluffy and the obnoxious T-spikes. I do have to admit that, unlike the aforementioned TypeNull and Musharna, Dubwool sits at quite a high speed tier, which can be detrimental to its foes since it limits offensive counterplay from slow threats like Glaceon. One last question: can we already point Dubwool as broken or unhealthy when there are all these options to beat it, and maybe more that are waiting to become popular?

Specs

Hide

At the moment I'm fairly 55-45 (ban/dnb) on Dubwool. I like what it can potentially bring to the meta defensively. Switching into threats like fully physical Silvally (Dubwool is probably the best counter to those), Pawniard, offensive Mawile, Stonjourner is great to have in the meta. We also haven't had a ton of great defensive Pokemon in general in this tier so far, so having one that covers a lot of the physical offensive threats is not something we just want to get out of the tier without considering the good it does. Legitimate counter play has been adapted into the metagame: Dusclops, Lampent, Honedge, Gloom, Pyukumuku and most notably Mareanie. As well as already good Pokemon getting even better because of Dubwool: Mold Breaker Storm Throw Throh, Musharna, Beheeyem, Gourgeist, Manectric, and Offensive Roselia. However what the tier has become as a result of these adaptations is something I'm not a fan of. Especially T-spikes. These have put a massive strain on building. The Dubwool users want T-spikes because it puts pressure on or straight up allows Dubwool to win vs the Ghost Types that are supposed to stick around and beat it. On the other hand, the players facing Dubwool want T-spikes to allow them to chip any non Rest sets and force Rest sets to rest so they can pivot around Body Press with their Psychics etc, or just pressure them harder because of the lack of leftovers recovery. So almost every team wants a poison to either set up T-spikes (Mareanie, Roselia) or a poison that will allow them to not lose to T-spikes (Gloom or the previously mentioned T-spikers.). Still, T-spikes are an issue that extends beyond Dubwool. As a consequence, the massive preparation against them, especially the presence of Boots+Spin Rime and Mareanie/Roselia in all kinds of teams, limits quite noticeably the effectiveness of Dubwool, without being centralization around Dubwool.

A meta centralized around T-spikes like this doesn't seem very healthy to me. Or at the very least, isn't fun to play (super subjective so take that with a grain of salt if you want, do want a fun meta though.) All in all, I dislike the combination of Dubwool and hazards. Now that we are clearly aware that Dubwool can be a real issue, and that the many ways of dealing with it have been brought to light, I definitely expect our playerbase to seriously take into account T-spikes in particular (one of the most problematic aspects of Dubwool imo) every single time we build a team. And we'll see if Mr Rime and Mareanie going mainstream (they already kinda are) alongside the other checks are enough to put an end to Dubwool sweeps. If not, a ban will be deserved.

Ktut

Hide

I’m gonna be honest. At first I was going to do my own post. Then I realized the meta discussion thread was quite barren, and that we would need many people posting to actually start a real discussion around the “Dubwool meta”. So I had an idea, which was to have a debate with friends, and that we would write down the result, as individual posts, but not independent, as they all stem from the discussion that took place during the whole experiment. As I was trying to convince everyone of this particular concept for a collective post, more and more submissions where shared among the group. And so basically they did all the writing part and pretty much nothing was left for me! Which is awesome because that shows how great we were at working as a group.

I did a quick one though:
I think dubwool can definitely be problematic, but there are so many answers to it -I mean, actual, viable answers, not uh Gastly (please don’t hurt me)- that it’s impossible to label it as broken. Maybe it centralizes teambuilding too much, but I’m not sure about this. What I’ll mainly focus on though -and reflects what gum said in the post above- is that the main issue in the tier is T-spikes, and as much as Dubwool abuses them, I think it’s a much broader issue, independent of Dubwool. I mean, how do you answer Manectric with a poisoned Palpitoad/Electric-vally? How do you answer Throh with a poisoned Musharna or Gourgeist? How do you check Stonjourner with a poisoned Hitmontop? And it means that everyone will soon have counterplay to Tspikes. In fact, we can already see Mareanies and Spin+Boots Mr Rime everywhere, the latter being a perfect spinner, as it is impossible to spinblock it without losing your ghost in the process: even Dusclops can’t handle Nastyplot Rime. So I expect Dubwool to maybe seem broken for another week or so, but soon it will start to become less oppressive, and less used as a win condition. Finally, without resorting to Lampent and the likes, still keep in mind Dubwool’s weakness to Fire, which allows Psychic/Bug-vally to counter it with their resistance to Bodypress and access to Flamethrower. And yes, stop using Raichu and try Manectric more, this mon is so much better vs everything and oneshots Dubwool with Overheat.

TJ and 2xthetap

Hide

They decided not to write anything, but contributed as much as everyone else. They are respectively anti-ban and pro-ban, but greatly open-minded and by debating they helped nuance the different submissions, which was the crucial part of the project, as otherwise we would have ended up with more of a “ban against anti-ban” post than a collective effort towards reaching a consensus.

Final words
We hope you enjoyed this collective post. Even though we all have our own point of view on the Budwool-Dumbwool question, we would like to say with only one voice: Dubwool isn’t an easy case. It’s not just fine, it’s not outright broken either. Although some aspects of it are worrisome, we should wait more before making the calls, as Tlenit said, because counterplay exists and the parallel Toxic Spikes issue might end up making Dubwool worse as teams start preparing for T-spikes as one if not the biggest threat in PU. Whatever your opinion on Dubwool is, we hope we helped nuance it by reaching a mixed consensus, and that all together, our opinions make a constructive post, instead of a source for more heated debates.

Have a great day or night! And feel free to tell us if you liked the concept of this post, or what you thought of it, that would be awesome!!

-Ktutverde, Specs, Tlenit1, Urusius, Skipkan, TJ, 2xthetap​

 

[Akir]

Council Happenings​

Meta Discussion:

• Obviously the big ticket issue at the moment is Dubwool. Dubwool's effect on the metagame has been strong: we went from a very notably offensive metagame to one that prefers semistall. Because of this, many in the council are willing to entertain an S rank Dubwool. Normally Dubwool would be on the next quickban slate, however the council has opted to not vote on any more bans until next month's tier shifts.
• So yes, we have noticed that the Fightvally ban has been controversial. The ban was not clean (6 to 3 if memory serves) and even now the council remains split on whether or not Fightvally should be resuspected. However, with tier shifts coming in a week and PUPL after that, it is a poor time for resuspects. Surely this will not be the last post about this mon.

VR and Other Votes:

• As stated above, all votes are being paused until the next tier shifts have settled some. The next installment of this newsletter will more than likely talk about the shifts or what we are planning in more detail, but for now it is too far out. In short, we are simply cruising with what we have at the moment.

Forum Happenings:

• PUPL has finally begun! Here are the manager signups, as well as the formats to be played. Player signups will be next week as well.
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See you all next week!

 

[Brandon]

I know some people have been talking about toxic spikes being pretty strong recently, and I wanted to share some underlooked poison types that you can build with, so you don't have to rely solely on & as absorbers.


Salandit @ Eviolite
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Toxic
- Knock Off
- Flamethrower
- Taunt

I used this mon because I wanted to try beartic, and it helps weaken mareanie by poisoning it, taking its evio, and prevents it from recovering. It also has a lot of utility despite it being super frail. Poisoning anything, knocking off evio or boots, and taunting slower defensive mons has all been helpful in various matches. Its speed tier is also just high enough to outspeed the standard np gourg set (184 timid) and having few solid fire resistances makes its mono attack useful enough.


Trubbish @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes/Toxic Spikes
- Pain Split
- Toxic/Toxic Spikes
- Clear Smog

Other than it being quite adorable, I know avarice has used it some, but it provides a similar utility that roselia does in that it has access to both sets of spikes. Trubbish can actually check fighting types and physical attackers (not losing your eviolite is super helpful) much better than rose can, but it doesn't have as reliable recovery/as much special bulk. The last cool tech with Trubbish is clear smog. It is a fairly passive mon, but this move makes sure that non-steels will not set up on it.


Stunky @ Eviolite
Ability: Aftermath
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Flamethrower
- Defog

Baby skunk!!! Stunky provides a nice switchin to rose, and it is able to taunt passive setters and can fog away other hazards. Spreading poison through toxic and hitting things with flamethrower rounds out its repertoire. I know that the small number of hazard removers in the tier has people itching to try out new alternatives, and stunky is immune to tspikes, so it does have a niche that it can carve out for itself at the moment. S/O Musharnanigans for coming up with stunky.

I feel like there is a lot of unexplored potential in the nfe/lc mons, so I encourage everyone to try things out and to let us know if you find something to be successful!