Metagame np: PU Stage 2 - Let's Go Crazy (Crown Tundra is out)

[Leni]

Quick question, what exact factor was the one that made the council Quickly change its views on Kanga and butterfree in such a few time period? Were orbeetle and rotom the Reasons why these mons were kept in check? Or was it simply because the council hadnt experimented with these mons enough to see their wall breaking potential?

It was more so a combination of everything that happened beginning of the month. Nearly 30 new mons+unbans and the limited time to play with every mon. Not only council members needed to adapt, but everyone else too to get proper idea how things are turning out. On the sheet you can see reasoning why people ended up voting ban/dnb as well

 

[Pabloaram]

I think the Kanghaskan ban was innecesary. I mean he help most than hurt bulky balance cores especialy with the offensive matchup. He's like ninjask when you can build a balance team and slap both in to have a great matchup again Offense.
Vivilion 2.0 was a necesary ban but most of the Quiver Dance user of the tier use sleep move to set up

 

[termi]

Council Happenings​

Meta Discussion:

• Following the recent set of bans, the metagame is looking decently balanced all things considered. That being said, a few Pokemon remain on our radar and may end up on a voting slate in the near future depending on how the meta develops.
• remains a divisive Pokemon, on one hand adding a very welcome Steel-type pivot to the tier that glues teams together with its AV set, while on the other hand acting as a fearsome wallbreaker with CB, SD, or even Choice Scarf sets. For the moment, it is the healthy and balanced AV set that has dominated in tournament settings, but it remains a threat to watch out for.
• is similarly divisive, with many council members expressing concerns over its HDB set's ability to more or less rack up damage for free with its fast STAB U-Turn while simultaneously acting as a revenge killer and sweeper. On the other hand, it remains incredibly frail and can be punished somewhat by Rocky Helmet bearers like Stunfisk and Sandslash.
• was not on the last voting slate, but its base 125 SpA paired with a very powerful dual STAB makes it one of the scariest wallbreakers in the tier at the moment. While it is held back by its mediocre speed, shaky defensive typing, and a plethora of viable Grass- and Psychic resists, its raw power makes it very difficult to switch into nevertheless.
• should be mentioned since it has been banned from the tier before, and while it has gained new checks and the increased power level of the tier has made its job harder, the fact remains that it is a threat that is very versatile and difficult to KO thanks to its great bulk, typing, and ability, while remaining difficult to switch into even when it's running defensive sets thanks to Apple Acid and Body Press. While it is currently not the council's highest concern, it is undoubtedly a top tier threat that has to be watched out for.

VR and Other Votes:

• Butterfree and Kangaskhan were recently quickbanned by the council. The council was unanimous on Butterfree, finding counterplay to it too limited due to the fact that it could freely pick between two excellent abilities and two good STAB moves that were difficult to tank after a Quiver Dance or two. Furthermore, Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance + Substitute allowed Butterfree to get past many supposed checks, which simply made it too overbearing to keep in the tier.
• The council was a little more divided on Kangaskhan, but between its powerful Double-Edge, access to priority, great speed tier, and amazing bulk for such an offensive threat it proved to be a cut above everything else in PU. Its Fake Out will be missed, CB Double-Edge less so.
• We have a viability list now! The meta is still fresh after the DLC drops shook the tier up, so a full VR is not quite feasible yet, but this should give anyone interested in building teams an idea of what's hot and what's not.

Forum Happenings:

• The PU Kickoff Tour's finals are here at last! Squash17 and ggopw are duking it out for the honor of being the first winner of a PU tournament this generation.
• In other tournament-related news, PUPL Week 5 and PU Open Round 2 are also up!
• The Smogon Dex has been updated to include a bunch of new sample sets for Pokemon that were recently introduced to PU, as well as a few updated sets for Pokemon that have been PU for a while but required updating following the shakeup caused by the DLC. If you're unsure what set to run on your favorite Pokemon, head over to https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/formats/pu/ and click the Pokemon you want to build with.

Discussion Points:

• How do you feel about the likes of Perrserker, Ninjask, Exeggutor, and Appletun? Are they fine additions to the tier or do you think they might be overbearing? Are there any other threats that might be too much for the tier?
• Following the release of the new viability list, are there any Pokemon you think are currently underrated? What Pokemon should we be seeing more of in the near future?
• The metagame is currently very offensive and heavy on pivots, with many abusers of U-Turn, Volt Switch, and Flip Turn running around. Do you think fast offensive playstyles will remain dominant, or is there room for bulky offense, balance, or even stall to grow in popularity?

 

[gum]

i think the meta is in a better place than it was before the tier shifts, but building is still largely unfun. there's just way too many threats to account for and not enough answers. this leads to repetitive building and people often relying on ninjask, or some form of priority, to offensively check the threats they struggle against and couldn't cover while building.

ninjask basically feel like a necessary evil, but honestly i don't like the impact it has on the metagame and on building, and i find it to be quite unhealthy. it forces the use of a rocky helmet bulky ground-type like stunfisk on every teams so it doesn't get free u-turns everytime it comes in. these pokemon, while good, are very easy to take advantage of and vulnerable to common, arguably problematic breakers such as exeggutor and appletun - which i don't think would be as good without their best partner. the issue here isn't ninjask having u-turn, it's ninjask being so good at gaining momentum with absolutely 0 drawbacks whatsoever due to to its speed and typing. it's also an incredible sweeper that is almost impossible to revenge kill once it gets going, often forcing the opponent to keep their answer healthy, which can sometimes be pretty hard if the ninjask user has something like perr. ninjask's unhealthy presence wrapped a meta that lacks reliable answers to all the offensive threats around it to where losing momentum as much as once can lead to an immediate loss.

ty for reading!

 

[Spacial]

I don't particularly like the effect Ninjask is having on the current meta. gum honestly summed it up pretty well: Ninjask forces teams into scenarios where they're obligated to run a dedicated check like Stunfisk or Rocky Helmet Sandslash to punish Ninjask's pivoting shenanigans, but its wallbreaking partner will just blow them back regardless. Ban.

Exeggutor, meanwhile, feels like a perfectly healthy mon. While it's hard to switch into, it has trouble getting into the field safely in the first place, and its typing, while solid offensively, doesn't do much for it in the way of taking hits. If I'm honest, I think Ninjask is moreso the problem than Eggy: it's the best pivot the tier has to offer right now, and Eggy demolishes bulky Grounds like Stunfisk that aim to stop Ninjask, thus creating a natural partnership. As the primary enabler, I think a Ninjask ban rather than an Exeggutor ban would be the most appropriate course of action. No ban.

Appletun has more defensive and offensive counterplay in this meta than it did when it was banned previously, which is why I'm leaning towards a no ban. The existence of 2 great new Steel-types in Klinklang and Perrserker (specifically the Assault Vest set) offers more teams a moderate amount of defensive counterplay against specs sets, and strong attackers like Unfezant, Gapidash and Exeggutor have little trouble revenge killing it thanks to its horrible speed. Bulky sets, meanwhile, offer a check to things like choiced Boltund and bulky Ground-types, while not being too difficult for standard wallbreakers to deal with. With the exception of Iron Defense + BP variants, defensive sets also struggle with the aforementioned Steels.

Not too much to say in regards to Perrserker that the Council Minutes didn't already: it's an incredibly powerful wallbreaker with CB, but low speed and special bulk leaves room to offensively check it. AV sets offer a decent blanket check to prominent special attackers, making for a healthy addition to the metagame. Though this could be subject to change depending on the meta develops, no ban for now.

 

[TONE]

While I'm not one who post frequently in regards to metagame trends and whatnot, the tier is slowly but steadily going in the right direction which is nothing but positive however there were some concerns regarding some mons which I'll touch on myself.

Ninjask was already talked about before and I agree with what was being mentioned. The ability to act as a revenge killer, late game cleaner, having HDB to not take 50% from Stealth Rock, and reliance on getting chip damage with Rocky Helmet to whittle it down has made building problematic to the point where your team is slowly getting chipped and Ninjask gets free momentum making it more of a problem down the line especially with most responses to Ninjask, (Stunfisk, Sandslah, Mawile), lacking reliable recovery bar stuff like Mareanie which just gets U-Turned on. If anything, Ninjask feels the most banworthy at this point in time for me.

Perrserker is a mixed bag for me for many reasons. Being one of the better Ice checks in tier if not arguably the best Ice check has made keeping Pokemon like Mr. Rime and Glaceon and having momentum on top of that is great too, but on the flipside, the CB set has some wondering why it hasn't been quickbanned. One can argue that it raw power backed by 2 great abilities, solid coverage in Close Combat and Seed Bomb, combined with solid defensive typing has made it be more overwhelming for teams that lack great Steel resist which again falls back to rise of Stunfisk which lacks reliable recovery to be a long term stop. I'm more leaning towards no ban if only because of what it provides the tier, but I can't overlook how difficult it is to adequately switch into from a defensive perspective.

Like Perrserker, Exeggutor is a mixed bag for me, but in this instance I feel more comfortable with a no ban. While Choice Specs sets hit hard, the low Speed and bad defensive typing means it comes in on less Pokemon, mainly this is offset by the rise of Stunfisk, Sandslash, etc, and decline of the previously omnipresent Mawile pre-DLC making switching into certain Pokemon easier on top of having Teleport for slow momentum basically overtaking the place of Beheeyem as a Psychic-type wallbreaker, I wouldn't mind look at Exeggutor being suspected in the future depending on metagame trends and any potential changes from tier shifts in August, but atm it doesn't feel as overbearing as opposed to something like Ninjask.

This a bit more 60/40 toward ban for me, but currently ok with Appletun in the current metagame despite the versatility it provides. Between Defensive sets, Choice Specs, the rise in Eject Pack + Draco Meteor for momentum, it is very annoying to deal with in practice since Appletun can easily force mind games in terms of its set and is still problematic for me. The rise in Perrserker and Klinklang may keep it in check somewhat, but is easily mitigated with Body Press + Iron Defense. Another Pokemon I wouldn't mind getting looked at down the line. Now for my own metagame trends and underated mons.

If Ninjask wasn't being looked at toward a potential ban, G-Rapidash should definetly be #2 on the list for me. Like Appletun, it has incredible versatility with CM, Scarf, SD, and CB sets being extremely plausible to pull off. Not to mention that every set provides a valuable niche for teams on top of having the necessary coverage to make setup sets more effective to pull off and effectively create 50/50s. Kept your AV Perrserker around to check Special G-Rapidash and then it goes for SD? Yeah, there's been instances where physical sets are overshadowed by CM Stored Power sets with Kee Berry, but in reality there is no real singular bonafide check to this thing. G-Rapidash is just an eyesore in terms of building against because of the ability to effectively set up regardless of the set, never has to worry about being poisoned by Toxic Spikes, not to mention a great Speed tier to boot. I feel there is no consistent countermeasure to deal with G-Rapidash as a whole, hence my opinion of having it looked at by the council to ban.

I'm probably not the only one who believes this thing needs to be used more. Lycanroc-Midnight was overlooked last gen, but no longer. It feels more like how Stoutland was played in ORAS, click one button regardless of the switchin and you get damage off. Granted Rock coverage has more prominent resists, firing off Choice Band Stone Edge without having to risk missing is a pretty great thing to have going for a wallbreaker. Not to mention the addition of Close Combat to its arsenal kinda makes it like a Terrakion knockoff in a sense with having stronger coverage for Steels and Sucker Punch for priority can make this a strong wallbreaker in the current metagame especially with the ability to offensively check stuff like Mr. Rime and Glaceon as well as Klinklang that hasn't set up.

And that's all I really have to say for now. I feel the metagame will continue to be centered around utilizing momentum grabbers into slow strong wallbreakers. There is room for Balance, Bulky Offense, and even Semi-Stall/Stall to thrive, but at the moment the ability to effectively pull off said playstyles can leave you playing from behind more often than not when faced with Offense in the hands of a capable player without either some bans or drops occuring in the future. Thanks for reading, stay safe, and have fun playing PU.

 

[coolio1223]

ok, this is my first ever metagame input so let's see how this goes.
With the rise of ninjask, steels have become arguably more important than ever. I see more and more mawiles and perrserkers on teams and it's easy to see why, however this rise in steels (and rocks to a certain extent), has lead to a pokemon I NEVER would have thought actually having what i would call a legitimate niche.

Magnemite

Now I know you may be wondering if this is a joke, however i assure you it is not. There are only 4 steels currently with enough usage to be PU right now: perrserker, mawile, klinklang and pawniard. Of those 4 magnemite outright counters 2 of them (mawile if it does not run fire fang and klinklang) and even of the other 2 only perrserker can OHKO (pawniard needs either a swords dance up or a life orb for even a CHANCE to kill), and even then perrserker is running band a lot right now so if it is locked into an unfavourable move (iron head for instance) it's bye bye. This means that in the role of trapping a steel type, i have found that this set has been working WONDERS for me in setting up for a late game ninjask sweep.

Magnemite @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 204 HP / 252 SpA / 52 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Toxic

now it may look a little strange at first so let me explain, the specs is to allow magnemite to OHKO certain steels (perrserker and phys def mawile come to mind) and the 52 speed allows you to outrun base 50 pokemon with 8 speed evs (you can put a little less in if you want, I like to make sure). This will allow you to outrun defensive steel types and either kill them or volt switch out to kill them NEXT time mag is in vs them. The moves should hopefully be pretty obvious except for toxic, which is just there as it's a good move and magnemite's movepool is shallow. Now for a couple calcs.

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Wild Charge vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 90-106 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnemite Volt Switch vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 174-205 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this means in a 1v1 situation magnemite SHOULD win
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mawile: 201-237 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 313-370 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 175-207 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
even in the worst case scenario here of getting specs knocked off
252+ SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 177-208 (76.6 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Magnemite Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 138-163 (59.7 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and with no eviolite (say it has blackglasses instead) thunderbolt goes to a guarenteed OHKO, meaning there are some (albeit strange) scenarios where mag can deal with pawniard too.

However i will temper this arguement by saying this. Magnemite is hard countered by a very popular (or at least i think it is) pokemon right now, Lickilicky. Magnemite can do absolutely NOTHING to that fat wall, as it can just heal bell off the toxic and mag does paltry damage to it. which is why i would recommend pairing it with ninjask and a strong fighting type to deal with this issue.

I hope I have articualted myself well and gotten across a point, Magnemite is not a metagame defining threat by any means. But I do sincerely believe it has a place in the metagame for helping one of the best pokemon sweep as well as just trapping some annoying pokemon to deal with.

 

[MZ]

Council is voting on these 5 Pokemon, the results will be out Sunday. This is your warning + a call to action on getting more meta posts. We would love more opinions on these Pokemon!

For anyone not really keeping up with the meta or watching PUPL, the meta has started to go down a road that we pretty definitively do not want it to. Ninjask and Perrserker are both insane pivots that make strong breakers, particularly Apple, Eggy and G-Rap, even better than they normally would be. This has caused a massive surge in the usage of Stunfisk, Rocky Helmet, other niche pivots, Eject Button and Eject Pack users, and a lot of centralization around Ninjask and pivoting in general. Ninjask also has a massive impact on what can and can't be run, most Speed-boosting setup sweepers are outright invalidated by its presence. Right now a majority of the council has stated they're pretty in favor of banning Ninjask immediately.

The rest are somewhat more nuanced though. Perrserker is a strong breaker but slow and frail and mostly relegated to AV stuff, Appletun is always powerful but somewhat exploitable and weak to lots of common coverage and entry hazards, Exeggutor basically follows this trend too, and Galarian Rapidash is really strong once it sets up but very frail (and doesn't benefit from how common Ninjask is). Still, all 4 of these Pokemon are extremely difficult to counter and massive threats at teambuilding. I shouldn't need to list their virtues (although if you haven't played with SD Galarian Rapidash you really should, I like Protective Pads on it). There are not a ton of choices to counter any of these Pokemon, they all have good set variety and can be fairly constricting at the teambuilder, but they're not quite running the meta and are far from uncounterable. The teambuilding/on paper impact of something like Galarian Rapidash tends to be much larger than its presence in practice. I personally haven't made up my mind on them and I know others on council haven't too. This is a great time to share opinions and make posts explaining how you think the bans should shake out. And I know we've been saying it for a while, but Akir and I are hopeful that after the August tier shift we can actually move into public suspects again.

Fun fact: In the 6 SS PU PUPL games that have happened so far in week 5, there have been 9 Ninjask, 5 Sandslash, and 5 Stunfisk. That's 75% of teams using the speed bug and 83% using one of our two fat grounds because of how few things check it and Perrserker in the same slot while not being terrible. Perrserker's had 6 uses with another 2 Klinklang because not that many mons check Ninjask or Galarian Rapidash. Obviously this is a pretty small sample size but that Ninjask figure should explain an awful lot to anyone surprised at such a fast turnaround on its presence.

edit: separate from all the council stuff, I've seen a lot of people asking about getting teams but it's weird to share things in a meta that keeps changing during PUPL and open. Anyway here's what I used the last 2 weeks of PUPL.
https://pokepast.es/759e751fc04e3203
https://pokepast.es/950fb20e47accd61

 

[coolio1223]

of course as soon as i post something praising a magnemite ninjask core ninjask is gonna be banned :P .

Ah well, i stand by my points i made earlier, and if perrserker goes too then mag may become an absolute MENACE for steel types, so this is gonna be a mixed bag for me i think. Ninjask is gonna be banned, perrserker.....i kind of hope it is but not holding my breath, as for the others....i don't really have an opinion on as i haven't really used or faced them that much (i'm a low to mid ladder player at best, haven't entered many tourneys and am more of an analyzer than great player anyway)

 

[BulbaBrain]

I'm going to drop my opinions on these 5 mons here. Obviously I haven't been playing as much as usual, but I'm getting back into things again after a two week or so break. Feel free to comment and argue!

--- This thing is obviously a top tier threat. Speed Boost and Swords Dance are very scary and this thing can easily sweep lategame given the opportunity. It can even function as a non-locked scarfer with Protect on Speed Boost with Acrobatics. Dual Wingbeat is also a huge buff now that it doesn't have to resort to Aerial Ace if its HDB. However, I think that there are more than enough defensive threats to deal with this thing. The current use of steel types and a lot of Stunfisk, along with the fact that the thing is weak to rocks (if not HDB) and priority makes me question if this thing should get banned or not. In fact, it feels that Ninjask is not overwhelming or centralising. It even has okay competition in Pinsir. IMO DNB

--- Ban! Perrserker is crazy. It has okay bulk, is great glue for the team (with AV especially), absolutely SMASHES balance teams with banded and a few predicts, and has a great ability in Tough Claws. Right now it is effectively the most threatening wallbreaker and arguably most centralising out of these 5. Perrserker has literally only Stunfisk to check it, but even that gets shredded if Perrserker runs the surprise (or now optimal) Seed Bomb option. Fake Out - Uturn is just the cherry on top in my opinion. Again, ban.

--- I honestly think we should not ban Appletun. Appletun is a really nice wall which is part of the reason why we have this greatest SS PU meta to date. Its ability to be a great mon in balance and a threatening presence is really just what many people find their bread and butter, making Appletun a great glue Pokemon. However, unlike that last time we banned it, this time it actually has offensive counterplay. Silvally-Ice being the most threatening Silvally right now and Mr. Rime being a Pokemon also on top of the metagame helps immensely, with other Pokemon like the aforementioned Pinsir and Ninjask getting their pick of the apple pie as well.

--- DNB. I am now getting tired of mentioning Bug types and Bug type coverage. Yes, it has good bulk. Yes, it has a great ability. Yes, it is very threatening and its special attack is no joke. But it has a jackcrap defensive typing, gets walled by steel types, has competition from a million other psychic types in the tier, and its ability is effectively just a niche because Trevenant uses offensive Poltergeist anyways.

--- Ban?? I honestly haven't seen this thing too much in the short time I have played this tier recently. Obviously it can still wreak havoc. An immunity to Poison, a dirty Calm Mind set, a wonderful speed tier, a threatening presence for both Special and Physical sides, and although its defenses are under par, it has reliable recovery. Again, there are a lot of psychic types which gives it competition, and the steel type problem with Perrserker and Klingklang still stand, but I am really not convinced that that is enough to let it stay. Maybe the addition of Poltergeist and offensive ghosts could change my mind, but that trend has died out as of recent.

Hope you enjoyed reading n-n

 

[PTF]

ban

I don't find Ninjask broken in of itself. However, Ninjask has the unhealthy ability to lure in passive mons like Sandslash / Stunfisk and U-Turn on them creating excellent momentum for slow wallbreakers like Eggy / Banded Perr to just destroy teams. It becomes an endless loop of U-turn and bringing in these breakers. The momentum Jask provides also makes our wallbreakers just that much better and abusable to the point where balance archetypes can not keep up. By removing Jask, mons like Eggy would have a much harder time finding the opportunity to break. This core of Jask + wallbreaker is excellent to the point where attempting to build anything else puts you at a disadvantage. This can be seen in our PUPL matches where 3/4 of our teams have had Ninjask which is a testament to the playstyle. Overall, I think Ninjask is the most unhealthiest mon we have and needs a heavy duty boot.

 

[zS]

hey I’m going to share some thoughts about some of the voted mons.
Ninjask is really good, having access to SD + Speed Boost is insane, but I really think this Pokemon suffers from 2 things:
- Lack of power if holding Heavy-Duty Boots
- Stunfisk’s overpopularity which will lead to my second point.
Everyone is calling Dual Wingbeat a huge buff but I really disagree with that. Since one of the most common ways for checking Ninjask is relying on Rocky Helmet to punish it from abusing U-Turn to keep the momentum, Dual Wingbeat being a Multi-hit move doesn’t help with that. Ninjask will take almost the same amount of damage using Dual Wingbeat + U-Turn as it would take from Stealth Rock if it didn’t wear Heavy-Duty Boots. So why would you lack power and miss some important OHKOs just for an 80 bp move that make Ninjask’s checks even better against it. Secondly, Stunfisk is a huge top tier which dissuade it from attacking for two reasons. the first one is the rocky helmet as I mentioned earlier and the second one is Static which has a 30% chance of paralyzing if Stunfisk takes a hit. But Stunfisk’s popularity also generated a top threat : Exeggutor.
Eggy is a powerhouse and has only a few switches in but faster Pokemon often deal with it easily because it isn’t that bulky. But here is the problem :
Both Ninjask and Eggy aren’t banworthy alone, but as a core, they are super broken. The presence of Eggy on a team dissuades people from abusing their Stunfisk to check Ninjask so it gets free momentum or free damage on some mons that weren’t meant to check Ninjask at first. This is one I think only one of them should be banned and the one I really want to see banned would be Eggy.
Since banning Eggy is the move I think, we can keep appletun in the tier. I don’t find it any broken and I think people overestimate it a bit. It’s very slow, bulky, and hits hard with specs Draco Meteor, Apple Acid is still a broken move and Thick Fat is a really good ability. But we got a lot of additions to the tier that made it a lot less threatening than it was before. So I don’t think we should ban it.
slow breaker if holding a choice band, few switches in but also a nice glue if holding an Assault Vest, Perrserker is imo the best Pokemon in the tier and I really think we still need it. It pressures teambuilding, that’s true, but I think we should give it a break for now. I have the same opinion about this mon that I had with Silvally Poison when it was still around. Broken Offensively, but mandatory in a lot of teams defensively. So please do not ban this for now or just Suspect it.
Still as broken as it was when PU banned it first. Insane speed tier and movepool. SD sets unstoppable, cm broken, scarf provides utility... this mon has everything. Nothing much to say I really think it’s still banworthy.
Thanks for reading!

 

[Specs]

I don't think anything other than Ninjask should be banned for this slate. Both in the playing and building department everything comes down to how well you punish your opponents Ninjask + breakers, and how well you're able to play and/or how often you're able to get in your own Ninjask to get in your breakers.

Boots has removed any of the punishment running a Pokemon like Ninjask comes with, so the onus is on your opponent to run the little "counterplay" there is. Stunfisk is the best we have, it's splashable and has an ability that can punish Ninjask for ever touching it, as well as the option to run rocky helmet to make Ninjask's day even worse. Rocky helmet users in general are fine but they really don't do the job over the course of the game. Ninjask still gains momentum every time, and the chip often means very little as the situations it's wanting to SD are via absolutely forcing a switch.

So Stunfisk is the answer we've been looking for, awesome! Well, 70% of the time you'll still be able to U-turn freely and get in your Exeggutor to punish, or your Appletun, or your Sandslash ect. This continues the whole game until either the breakers have dented everything so Ninjask just cleans, or Ninjask has chipped everything via avoiding para (or the opponent not having Stunfisk) so the breakers are unstoppable now. So many games this week have relied on one of these two scenarios it's ridiculous. Building has not been fun and I wouldn't recommend anybody not building with Ninjask + AV Perrserker + Stunfisk + Fat Grass Filler Filler. There is no reason to run any fast mon rn other than Ninjask unless they have a unique quality that fits your build besides being fast, Ninjask completely takes the cake for speed control. I would link some replays but we all have seen this week of PUPL, and there are still more games to come where I'm sure some more examples of Jask being Jask will happen.

HJAD could probably word this better than I could since I've seen him go on about this for most of the gen, but Ninjask really just intensifies this issue of games coming down to who gets in their breakers the fastest and most often. It doesn't sound that bad on paper, but in practice it's just very variance based. Some of my main goals with tiering are fun, variety, and having the better player winning more often. I don't think this meta has any of that to offer right now. If you are not running something extremely similar to the 4 pokemon I mentioned earlier, I don't think you have a great shot of winning, which removes: variety, the better player winning more often (as the better player should be able to run something different and use their skill to their advantage), and overall fun from the tier.

I'll be honest and say I've not been playing a shit ton of this meta with focusing on mostly old gens this PUPL, but it doesn't take 100 games played to realize the issue I brought up. Hope this post resonates with some people and we get Ninjask the frick outta here

 

[Raahel]

Hello, I come to give my opinions about some to vote mons.

Ninjask has conditioned the metagame a lot, having to carry a pokemon with a rocky helmet and very good defensively as Stunfisk, Sandslash or Mawile to be able to damage it and press it since it is literally gaining free momentum against any pokemon and it is a pokemon that conditions the metagame Due to Heavy Duty Boots Swords dance and double stab like Dual wingbeat and U-turn, to be honest Ninjask must be Banned.

Perrserker is a very good pokemon in PU but it is not the best if we are honest they have many things that can easily stop it like stunkfisk, sandslash, tangela among others in addition to not having the best speedtier in the metagame since it is a pokemon with an average speed , tbh is necessary in the metagame so as not to make several pokemon very broken with good coverage and special attack like appletun or Mr. Rime and makes it very necessary in my opinion It should not be banned.

I have not tried a lot to exeggutor sincerely but vs those that I have faced it has not been difficult for me because of its abysmal literal speed tier any pokemon with a good stab and more speed than exeggutor can check it in addition to there are several things that stop it fairly easily like Perrserker AV, Klinklang among others for me It should not be banned IMO.

Compared to the last time Appletun was in PU, it is much more balanced since it has many more checks and counters such as Klinklang, Perrserker, Roselia, Togetic, among others for me compared to the last time it is not so broken so it should not be banned.

The Rapidash-Galar sets of Swords Dance and CM are very broken they can only be stopped with ninjask and Scarf pokemon as a perserrker that greatly conditions the metagame to have to use certain pokemon just to stop a single pokemon, tbh this in my opinion is too broken it should be banned.

sorry for my bad english.

 

[ishtar]

Just wanted to share some of my thoughts and am too lazy to actually format em in a fancy manner. Ninjask is a ban for sure, and for good reason. Going over why this should be the case would be echoing everything thats been said before, so I wont overextend. Ban jask!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perrserker has been rather controversial as a mon due to its great utility in AV sets, while also being deemed too much by some due to its offensive sets. I definitely find that a lot of teams benefit from AV Cat to sometimes wanna resort on the much less splashable offensive sets. I think that the sets for this mon that have been deemed problematic havent been showcased properly in the tour format or in regular play (through replays) for me to want it gone. I believe that the cat deserves a chance to be looked at further. Dont ban the cat, at least just yet!!!!

Apple and Eggy function rather differently but since I need to make this quick Id just like to echo whats been said about their exploitability, for example in Eggys pure inability to switch in p much anything and then having to deal w a good number of switch ins, including the aforementioned cat, Klinklang, Null, etc. As for apple, this is a mon that is tricky to switch into sometimes but whose flaws in speed, and existance of defensive and offensive answers allow it to mostly be a super healthy part of the meta game thanks to its fantastic defensive typing. Dont ban the Egg or Apple!!!!

Rapidash and Drifblim are two mons that I think could easily get out of control in a Ninjask-less meta but that Im willing to give a shot after productive convos w people around the community, plus adding the fact that its hard to speculate about a meta that isnt there, and tiering doesnt really work like that lol. F these two but maybe keep em. I wouldnt mind seeing them leave tho!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So in general I feel like w the omnipresence of Ninjask in the meta, a lot of the other threats have been able to be really good, but not to the point where enough exploration on some of them has been done. Lets actually see how offensive cat sets do next week, same w Eggy. The meta will change drastically after the Jask ban, and I believe that waiting a little bit on the others is the most apt decision. Thanks ll rip kek

 

[Ktütverde]

Hello, I haven't posted for a long time in PU, but there's just one important thing I want to say (one thing that takes a bunch of lines to be said). I hope it makes sense to you guys, but if it doesn't no worries, I might be wrong. I just want to say it.

What tiering has shown in the past months
The PU council has taken a very active approach on tiering this year. And honestly it hasn't been a bad thing, because every wave of bans refreshed the tier. But as we've seen, every time something got banned, something else became "broken". Ban after ban, the meta didn't become more playable than it was the previous week. Did you find grassy seed musharna metagame better than hitmonspikes meta better than Psy/Bug vally meta better than... (etc)

Was the original tier (nothing banned) with arctovish/noctowl/groundvally worse than the final tier (nothing else left to ban) with Spikes/pawniard/kadabra? In retrospect, I personally think the first one was healthier.

My point is, there are only two paths to take: banning everything, or banning nothing.

About banning Ninjask now
There's talk of banning Ninjask. But if you ban ninjask, I can assure you Rapidash, Lilligant and dumb HO will rise to brokenness immediately afterwards. If you ban perrserker, Exeggutor, Lilligant and Klinklang will become ridiculous too. And then, after Thievul and Appletun get banned again, after all those mons who became "broken" get the boot, we will pretty much be back in the old meta because all the new drops will have been banned.

I think Ninjask and the cat are strong, but honestly we've seen much worse than that, and I would rather keep them than seeing a new banwave begin and end up by mid-august in the same tier we played a month ago. I believe there are enough options in the current metagame to handle everything we have, and that the diversity is much greater than in the past months.

Yes Ninjask is really good, but idt it's any worse than Mesprit in SMPU. And it's absolutely not comparable to the Silvallies before they got banned. There's just so many splashable checks to ninjask. I know many of you will grind your teeth reading this, but I don't even think Ninjask centralizes building. You will have to use a ground type and a steeltype even once it's gone, and there are additional viable checks like Drifblim. Yeah I know ninjask creates momentum, but you can still punish it and limit its effectiveness, and you can definitely prevent it from sweeping you.

As I said, I might be wrong. But I'm convinced that banning something won't improve the tier. It will make the tier different, but we will probably end up banning everything. What's the point of DLCs if everything eventually gets banned? Shouldn't we instead try to keep as many mons as possible unless they are WAY too strong?

Tiering right now consists of placing a ball at the top of a hill. Banning something is like pushing slightly the ball, and then it starts rolling downhill until it reaches ground level. If we don't want to end up playing the same tier we played before the DLC, I think we must take the opposite route and try to avoid bans as much as possible, except for stuff that is blatantly broken like Tauros. Right now, Ninjask is the ball at the top of the hill. I think it shouldn't be moved.


Final words
That's all I wanted to say. I might be wrong. But I really think that this is what is going to happen if we ban stuff again. Thank you so much for reading! And I have to say I support not banning Ninjask. But I totally understand the pro-ban side. Take care,

-ktut

 

[Pabloaram]

Finnally someone think the same about the bans. This is the 2° time whe have Ninjask in the tier.
We has Jask in the alpha when something like trapinch existed to trap some of his check in especialy mawile.
But rn Ninjask is the anwser bc the meta isnt as offensive bc Jask negate speed busting tactics.
Banning Jask mean you have to ban many mons after mainly all offensive checked by Jask rn. Something like liligant for intance.
Srry about my english

 

[MZ]

Did you find grassy seed musharna metagame better than hitmonspikes meta better than Psy/Bug vally meta better than... (etc)

Was the original tier (nothing banned) with arctovish/noctowl/groundvally worse than the final tier (nothing else left to ban) with Spikes/pawniard/kadabra? In retrospect, I personally think the first one was healthier.

I felt this warranted a response because it asks rhetorical questions that I nevertheless have immediate answers to. Yes! The metas where we banned things were much, much better! I can absolutely say the final pre-DLC tier shift meta was leagues better than the one with Arctovish, Noctowl, and Silvally-Ground. Even HJAD, who's found every meta problematically unbalanced to some degree or another far more than I have, has consistently agreed with me that we've been making the tier better. In exactly the same way, I think we already have a clear snapshot of how problematic this Ninjask meta is and moving out of this extremely repetitive state will be an improvement over staying here. There's only so much you can do to adapt to 160 Speed momentum machine that invalidates, or very strongly discourages the use of, a decent portion of the tier. I have to believe that we can make things better because that's the point of our tiering. And, so far, I think it's worked. The only way I see your argument working is if you genuinely believe that the pre-DLC bans didn't lead to a better metagame. While that's a valid point to bring up, to the best of my knowledge nobody on council would remotely agree. If new things become broken we'll ban them too and then we'll end up at a balanced meta and everyone will be happy and have their own pony. Or not. But removing problem Pokemon worked the first time and the alternative is sticking with a bad meta which is kind of a non-option. It's pretty clear to the council that something needs to change from our current state.

Side note: I did like HitmonSpikes meta a bit more but a bunch of mons got broken by DLC moves (and Thwackey's Grassy Terrain being released, and Thievul's Stakeout...). This is not a failure of our tiering as much as Nintendo dumping new stuff and us being forced to react because suddenly a decent set of balanced Pokemon were very decidedly not that at all. But if we could've gotten away with not banning things, we wouldn't have banned them.

You also have other points like "Ninjask is like Mesprit" and "Ninjask doesn't centralize building that much" that I really really disagree with, but I think this covers the more interesting stuff because I don't have much to say against that stuff other than "I do not agree".

 

[Akir]

Exeggutor, Ninjask, and Perrserker are now banned: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...nd-announcements-thread.3660650/#post-8543010

 

[coolio1223]

wow.....i didn't actually expect perrserker to get banned......

As i said last time, magnemite is gonna be HELL for steel types.
For reference, the only steels that magnemite now can't trap and take care of 100% of the time are rest bronzor (which just lets another setup threat in), pawniard, alolan DIGLETT and alolan sandslash.

Of that very limited list, only pawniard has significant viability right now. This means that if mawile and Klinklang dont suddenly drop off a cliff in usage, magnemite is gonna be VERY useful for offensive threats that have trouble with steels. Things like leafeon, lilligant and unfeazant come to mind, or even something like glaceon, or type:null.

Although this ban has taken out arguably magnemite's best abuser, I genuinely think that for the SOLE reason perrserker is now gone, magnemite has only gotten better with this.

 

[SergioRules]

Quick post unrelated to the recent bans, I'm actually kind of thinking ahead towards the next DLC, Crown Tundra, and the Pokemon it could provide. What I've really been considering is the addition of the new move tutors in the Isle of Armor and how they might affect the Pokemon that we know are coming back. All we know at the time of this post are the returning Pokemon's TM and TR learnsets due to the Pokemon HOME datamine (however, that could also be wrong as it didn't show Poliwrath or Politoed learning Earth Power which they eventually did). Without knowing if there are any level up learnset changes or additional move tutors in the Crown Tundra, here's a list of relevant Pokemon and what new moves I think they could get.
Minor Pokemon spoilers for Crown Tundra and these are all theories since none of these moves are confirmed.

Crown Tundra mons with Isle of Armor move tutors

Expanding Force: I don't think this move fits very well on most things, and Jynx is honestly no exception. But if someone wanted to try out a Psychic Terrain team, Jynx's good Speed and Lovely Kiss support would be a good candidate.
Meteor Beam: This could finally give Omastar a strong STAB Rock move to use its much better special attack.
Triple Axel: Not sure how likely this one is, but with Articuno also gaining Brave Bird as a TR this generation, a physical set could be a nice lure/surprise set considering its Attack and Special Attack are fairly similar. Can't forget the Heavy Duty Boots mention that will make this mon better than it has been in the past.
Dual Wingbeat: A decently strong STAB Flying move that doesn't need a second turn like Fly. Could be good on Dragon Dance sets if those ever pick up usage.
Grassy Glide, Meteor Beam, Scorching Sands: Cradily got some huge buffs in the moves department this gen. With the addition of Power Whip and Rock Blast, while already having access to Swords Dance, physical sets could benefit greatly from Grassy Glide giving it priority in terrain. On the special side, Meteor Beam's Special Attack boost could help its offensive presence and Scorching Sands could give it more support with a Burn chance (figured it fits with flavor text since the fossil was originally found in the desert of Hoenn).
Flip Turn, Triple Axel: These two I'm not too sure about, but Primarina gets Flip Turn and it's kind of a seal thing so this could make Walrein a really decent pivot. Speaking of Primarina, it also gets Triple Axel, which could be useful for Walrein since it now gets Swords Dance and a plethora of other physical moves.
Flip Turn: They did Flip Turn distribution kind of weird, so I'm not sure what all will get it, but Relicanth seems like a good candidate. This turns it into a slow Stealth Rocking pivot, able to take hits and even dish some back now that it has access to Body Press too. Would be very cool to see this happen.
Poltergeist: My original inspiration for making this list, Spiritomb like many other Ghosts (Dusknoir, Gourgeist, Dhelmise, Shedinja, basically all other Ghosts) lacked a strong physical Ghost type move, especially lacking arms for Shadow Claw or Punch. The strongest (and only) physical Ghost move it gets as of now is Shadow Sneak. Now with the chance of gaining Poltergeist, it might have a chance to pull off physical sets since the loss of Pursuit also came this gen.
Scorching Sands: Gabite was definitely no star last gen, but if it gets Scorching Sands, it could turn into a great defensive wall, burning opponents, setting up Stealth Rock, and chipping away with Rough Skin. It won't make it the greatest mon, but I'd be curious to see it used. Also looking forward to seeing TankChomp come back in OU with this but that's for another day.
Dual Wingbeat: With Heavy Duty Boots existing, maybe you don't want to run Acrobatics on your Archeops. Dual Wingbeat is here to solve your problems with only a slight power decrease.
Misty Explosion: Already has regular Explosion, but with a STAB one, this could be much cooler. Also gets Body Press which is another reason it could be more viable.

 

[AllTerrainVen0moth]

Here are the pokemon I predict will be PU in the crown tundra. (Megas are coming back, if you look at the list of returning pokemon, you'll see a lot of pokemon that can mega evolve)

Hide

Electabuzz
Magmar
Dragonair
Combusken
Lairon
Altaria (Maybe)
Shelgon
Metang
Regice
Gabite
Regigigas
Audino
Cryogonal
Aurorus
Carbink
Walrein / Sealeo
Armaldo

 

[MZ]

Ok let's try to cut off Tundra speculation from here on out. We don't even have a release date and there's much more pressing current meta issues to deal with.
e: oh wait what no megas are almost certainly not coming back, the fact that returning Pokemon can mega means nothing, let's especially cut down on baseless speculation here.
e2: Also put a spoiler tag on there in case this is something people want to find out fresh

 

[TONE]

To bring the discussion back to the here and now, a few things I'd like to mention with the recents bans occuring:

Even though it was spared in the recent council vote, my stance on G-Rapidash still hasn't changed. As to not regurgitate what I said in my last post, the short version is the versatility of this mon can be a strain on teambuilng as the is no real way to reliably check this mon. Granted the usage has not been as high recently mainly due to the commonality of Ninjask, G-Rapidash is still really good offensively as is one of the more deadly setup sweepers in our tier.

Lilligant has been brought up a bit in the PU room following the recent bans and like its fellow banished Grass-type Exeggutor can take advantage of common Stealth Rockers like Stunfisk and Sandslash. While the loss of Hidden Power and real lack of coverage options outside Pollen Puff and Nature Power may seem detrimental, Quiver Dance is still a broken move even on a mon without good coverage. It is an option to be looked down the road for a council vote as Lilligant can easily sweep unprepared teams, but the flipside is that we do have good Grass resists in tier like Appletun and offensive checks like Scarf Unfezant to keep +1 Lilligant from sweeping. Not to mention Sleep Powder being a dumb move and sleep mechanics is very annoying with few countermeasures including having your own Grass-type or some RestTalk abuser like Dubwool. Choice sets can also be a pain as Choice Specs Leaf Storm can still do a ton of damage even to most resists and Choice Scarf can revenge kill slower scarfers like Drednaw and less seen Stonjourner while providing Healing Wish support. But the main issue I want to specify in this argument is the QD set. While it may not be as daunting at the moment, the main thing to keep in mind is the fact that it doesn't need much support to sweep. The main responses to Lilligant has either been utilizing AV Perrserker before it got banned, bulkier variants of Klinkling, Grass resists, Scarf Unfezant, or just playing aggressively to prevent a setup opportunity for Lilligant. Condensed version of this section, Does Lilligant need to banned? I'd say not right now, but definitly something to look at down the road.


Now for a odd set: What if you... missed AV Perrserker so much... you used AV Mawile to compensate .. aha ha, just kidding.. unless..?

Mawile @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch

As I mentioned before, this is an odd to run, but it isn't that far off from what AV Perrserker did basically trading momentum for Knock Off and stronger priority. With Assault Vest, Mawile can better take hits from the likes of Mr. Rime, special variants of Rapidash-G and Appletun at the expense of no passive recovery while still maintaining offensive potential with Sheer Force boosting Mawile's Dual STAB. The given Attack investment will always ensure that Sheer Force Iron Head will always OHKO Rapidash-Galar from full, rest is thrown into Special Defense to take hits from Pokemon such as Appletun.

Calcs

36 Atk Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash-Galar: 272-324 (100.3 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Shadow Ball vs 252 HP / 220+ SpD Assault Vest Mawile: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

36 Atk Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glaceon: 188-224 (69.3 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Thievul Burning Jealousy vs 252 HP / 220+ SpD Assault Vest Mawile: 182-216 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[MZ]

Hey lads this is another vote announcement post.

Council will be voting on Galarian Rapidash, Thievul, Driblim, and Appletun this Sunday, with results coming out before the next rounds of PUPL and open. Council in general is a lot more split on the need to even have a vote, and how big of a deal any of these Pokemon are. This post was late because whether or not it was worth having a vote at all was up for debate. We're finally at the point where updating the meta every week feels more tiring and unnecessary, it's certainly in a much better place than before the last round of bans. However, enough people are concerned about the presence of these Pokemon both on and off the council that another round of "should we be keeping this around? Is it any good for the tier?" feels necessary to have.

And now for my personal thoughts. Having something really meta defining and borderline broken like Galarian Rapidash running around feels like a bit less of an issue if the meta is still generally playable, we're getting good PUPL games out of it, and tier shifts are coming to shake things up in just a week (this Saturday). I've seen a lot of generic "I hate Rap" or "Drifblim is broken" takes on Discord, but not much to back up a pressing need to remove them right now to improve the meta. Even within council talk there's been a general lack of strong arguments or replays as much as the general feeling of annoyance about dealing with these top threats. If you feel strongly about these Pokemon, this is absolutely the time to make a post. The vote won't be concluded until late Sunday (U.S. times) and getting feedback is fairly critical to the process. I know I say this every time, but I think in particular if people are annoyed at things now is the time to make the case. These posts can and do influence our thinking. For example, I'm currently a do not ban on everything but Thievul (there are like 4 switchins all with very clear ways to work around and only one of which isn't fairly niche, I have no clue what counterplay is really meant to be to not being able to switch into it, and oh boy have I played and seen plenty of games and got a solid few replays of how dumb it is). But the point is, if you think Galarian Rapidash makes for an uncompetitive metagame and needs to be removed right now, I'm still very much willing to listen to those arguments. My current do not ban stance doesn't mean it definitively shouldn't go, it just means I haven't seen the need for it to go. But I really do want to see other people's experiences with these Pokemon. We had a lot of good discourse on the previous bans, it heavily impacted my opinion on Perrserker. Obviously there's no mandatory thought sharing here, but I'd love to get more of a sense why certain people are so fed up with Galarian Rapidash, Drifblim, and/or Appletun.

tldr if ur tired of a lot of votes, so are we but g-rap and theivul are big controversies so here we go hopefully for the last time for a while give or take massively broken things dropping in the august shifts