Metagame np: PU Stage 2 - Let's Go Crazy (Crown Tundra is out)

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AllTerrainVen0moth

Banned deucer.

Hello, I am proposing a Lilligant ban.

Quiver Dance is arguably the most dangerous setup move in history. Recently, PU has only seen three users of this move:

ZU --------- PU ----------- PUBL

As you can see, one of these users is already in PUBL, in large part due to the potency of Quiver Dance. However, you will notice that the third, Bellossom, is in ZU, and faces little to no controversy or usage within PU. The reason for this is that Bellossom and Lilligant perform very differently in practice, despite both being Grass-type setup sweepers. The primary cause is their difference in stat distribution. While Lilligant has much higher offensive stats, Bellossom's greatest stats are its defences - for a setup sweeper, this is not ideal. Consequently after a single Quiver Dance, Lilligant's base 110 Sp. Atk and 90 Speed are amplified to a greater degree than Bellossom's 90 Sp. Atk and 50 Speed, the latter stat requiring multiple Quiver Dances before being remotely threatening.

By contrast, after a single turn of setting up, Lilligant is already a prime threat, outspeeding Boltund, the fastest Pokemon in the tier, and capable of OHKOing it with its monstrous STAB, Petal Dance (more on that later). The pressure exerted on the opponent to prevent the slightest of blunders each turn in order to avoid paving the way for a game-ending threat such as this, is immense.

Unfortunately for the opponent, however, Lilligant can run more than two moves. Substitute and Sleep Powder are common in these slots, Substitute further decreasing counterplay against Lilligant as it sets up, not only granting status immunity but preventing Defense/Sp. Def drops from attacks such as Fire Lash and Apple Acid. The second move however is arguably worse, allowing Lilligant to come on top of any potential setup wars by disabling the opponent for a few turns. The unpredictability of the number of these turns (0-3) might be considered an argument against a ban, however it must be remembered how much Lilligant can accomplish within a single turn, unlike Bellossom. Landing a Sleep Powder against potential counters like Heatmor and Unfezant is enough to break through their guard in one or two turns and sweep the opposing team. Other options include Pollen Puff, a newly granted Bug-type attack which gives it the ability to negate opposing Grass-type checks.

The big kicker, though, is its STAB, Petal Dance. This functions similarly to Outrage, granting a 120 BP attack for 2-3 turns without switching, followed by confusion. This sounds strong but reasonably balanced, until you consider its ability, Own Tempo, which prevents confusion, turning Petal Dance into a nuke with the only drawback being no switching (which you wouldn't want to do after setting up, anyway), and the lock-in (which is fine because of the damage and pressure you're applying)

What tips Petal Dance off the edge, though, is the fact it only uses 1 PP during the 2-3 turns of attack. This negates almost any attempt to stall out Lilligant with recovery, as well-timed Petal Dances will outlast the opponent's recovery.

TLDR; Lilligant is not a Grass-type, but a Harass-type, different to Bellossom in this regard, capable of capitalising from a one-turn blunder with a game-ending sweep.
The reason Butterfree was banned wasnt just because of Quiver Dance. It was because it had a broken combo of moves in Compound Eyes boosted Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, and 90% Accurate Hurricane.
 
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ViZar

your toast is burned
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
The reason Butterfree was banned wasnt just because of Quiver Dance. It was because it had a broken combo of moves in Tinted Lens boosted Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, and 90% Accurate Hurricane.
I think you mixed up tinted lens with compound eyes.

Tinted Lens - "This Pokemon's attacks that are not very effective on a target deal double damage"
Compund Eyes - "This Pokemon's moves have their accuracy multiplied by 1.3"

But both are strong abilities, so i guess it doesn't matter.
 

Leni

formerly tlenit
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion
RUPL Champion
Council Minutes

Meta Discussion:
  • Council went through Throh discussion that popped up here and there in PU discord. For now council doesn't see any action is required. Tier includes good amount of Psychics, Fairies and Flying types that can offensively pressure Throh. Meanwhile defensive answers like Gourgeist, Tangela and Drifblim will keep it in leash. Definitely a top tier pokemon for the tier and council will keep eye on it.
  • Lilligant as a topic rose during last week and for now council is looking forward to see more from it.
  • PU meta is finally getting more stable and it looks very promising. Current meta will most likely stick till next tier shifts.

VR and Other Votes:
  • From last week Sam's: "Most of the council does not feel the immediate need to vote to ban anything." -stands for this week too.

Forum Happenings:
  • PU Slam reached top 8 and replays are mandatory now on! Who do we believe is favored to take it all?
  • After long 9 weeks the PUPL has finally reached till the end. Clairvoaynt Claydols has fought their way to be PUPL VI Champions. Congratulations, very well deserved! If you did miss the finals, you can re-live the series and hype here!
  • The ones who were part of PUPL VI, don't forget to drop PUPL teams!
  • Smogon Snake Draft signups are still open. Don't forget to sign up!
  • Feel free to ask anything on player of the week thread or just check it out. Will do my best covering your questions.

Discussion Points:
  • This week's hot topic will be Galarian-Rapidash. Pokemon that has always been on the fence to be banned. Do we still feel that way or what is the current situation going on with it?
 
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Alright so I made an account so I can end up giving my feedback on how I think the meta is performing.

I don't think Gapidash/Gorse/GRapidash/MyLittlePony is broken. I think its a fantastic glue pokemon that should be almost mandatory on offense teams because of either the pressure its SD/Calm Mind sets give, or the opportunities to play more aggressive with your other pokemon thanks to offensive healing wish support. This being said, I don't think its broken at all. Defenive Ghost types can check either set, priority is prevalent with two strong shadow sneak users in Geist and Dusknoir, and Hitmonchan can start teching in Bullet Punch. Hattrem can also cripple it with Nuzzle fairly easily making it a breeze to take care of. Dugtrio Alola can handle it easily, if it hasn't set up yet KlinKlang can handle it.

So yeah, as for Galarian Rapidash I think its presence is very noticeable, but there's enough common answers to it to where its not a restraint on teambuilding since its common answers are really good pokemon in their own right.

As for Lilligant, I think we all can agree we hate it a lot more than Galar Rapidash. Its not as good, but its a lot harder to stop once it gets going. Its stupid enough to the point where it can play around pokemon that are meant to deal with it fairly easily with good sleep powder rolls. Ultimately I don't think its banworthy because its not oppressive by any means and still has its own faults, and doesn't fit on half as many teams as Galar Rapidash, but its still damn annoying.
 
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AllTerrainVen0moth

Banned deucer.
Here's what I predict will drop from NU.
:ditto:
you know why
:cursola: :malamar:
Oh, how these pokemon have fallen from grace. Cursola is still an OK lead in NU, but it's just severely outclassed. As for Malamar, I havent seen it in NU at all this month. I've never used it this month, as its complete Trubbish up there.
:silvally: Water / Ghost
There's no reason to use any silvally in nu outside of Dark, Dragon, and Poison. TO PUBL WITH YOU!
:jolteon:
When you're unranked, you know youre fricked. It has an absolute Garbodor of a movepool, with only three coverage types, and has no reason to be used over the rotom forms.
:bouffalant:
Difficult to build around, and outclassed by Kangaskhan. Head Charge is cool, but that wont save it.
:politoed:
its useless
:rapidash:
Its been irrelevant since DLC1, nuff said.

thats it
 
Here's what I predict will drop from NU.
:ditto:
you know why
:cursola: :malamar:
Oh, how these pokemon have fallen from grace. Cursola is still an OK lead in NU, but it's just severely outclassed. As for Malamar, I havent seen it in NU at all this month. I've never used it this month, as its complete Trubbish up there.
:silvally: Water / Ghost
There's no reason to use any silvally in nu outside of Dark, Dragon, and Poison. TO PUBL WITH YOU!
:jolteon:
When you're unranked, you know youre fricked. It has an absolute Garbodor of a movepool, with only three coverage types, and has no reason to be used over the rotom forms.
:bouffalant:
Difficult to build around, and outclassed by Kangaskhan. Head Charge is cool, but that wont save it.
:politoed:
its useless
:rapidash:
Its been irrelevant since DLC1, nuff said.

thats it
I'd also add
1598382254888.png
1598382267202.png
1598382286798.png
and
1598382277822.png
. The former 3 have been severely lacking in usage on the ladder with them nearly about to fall off while liepard is outclassed by silvally dark and alolan persian at the moment. Other stuff that are more iffy include hitmontop and arctovish, who aren't even ranked despite being NU by usage (yet low ladder loves to spam them) and other stuff like
1598382436636.png
1598382444216.png
are kinda meh at the moment but i can see them barely hanging on.

Plus ditto is likely to rise to OU from it's usage in OLT
 
:bouffalant:
Difficult to build around, and outclassed by Kangaskhan. Head Charge is cool, but that wont save it.
:politoed:
its useless
I feel bad for Bouffalant, I actually had hopes for the guy (I mean, it may stay NU, but everyone keeps saying it wouod fall)

And I using Specs Politoed, but apparently Specs Basculin was a thing lol
 

SergioRules

||blimp||
is a Community Contributor
Hello, I'm here to talk about some mons that I think are either broken or just very good.

I'll talk about Gorse first since council minutes wants me to. I do think that on paper Gorse is much more threatening than it is in practice. Looking at the tier list and seeing only a few viable Steel types, all of which are still threatened by the coverage of either Mystical Fire or High Horsepower depending on the set, makes it kind of scary. I do think that there are enough strong priority users like the aforementioned Hitmonchan, Dusknoir, and Gourgeist, and common scarfers or just general fast Pokemon like Drednaw, Midnight Lycanroc, and Alolan Dugtrio to keep Gorse pretty decently checked from an offensive standpoint. Defensively however, it's another story. Not too many things can switch into a Calm Mind boosted Gorse, except for SpDef Klinklang and Mawile, or something like Pyukumuku (which would have to run Gastro Acid to even win the 1v1). When it comes to SD sets, stuff like Tangela and Mawile can switch in, but Mawile in particular loses 1v1 if Gorse SDs, and Stunfisk can switch in once and try and paralyze with Discharge or Static, but if Gorse runs Protective Pads then the latter is null.

Even with all this said and how good Galardash is, I don't think it's necessarily broken. Like I mentioned, it's really easy to go through it on paper and say how threatening it is, but in practice, it doesn't get too many opportunities to set up. Klinklang and Stunfisk threaten it with either Gear Grind or crippling it with paralysis and right now they're some of the most common mons in the tier. Most teams are running strong scarfers to revenge kill Gorse more easily, one of my current favorites being Head Smash Drednaw (unless you miss like termi). In the way I see it, Galardash is just a good mon, not necessarily broken but could be close.

(the site I get HD sprites from doesn't have all DLC mons yet)
Lilligant is next since it's been discussed here too. I personally don't find too much issue with Lilligant though this is likely because I use Klinklang quite a bit and it's probably one of the best Lilligant counters out there. Most ways of revenge killing this are limited to faster Scarfers like Manectric and Boltund, neither of which even kill +1 SpD Lilli, or Raboot and Unfezant, which much prefer Heavy Duty Boots, but Scarf sets are okay on both. There is also priority like First Impression Falinks and generally bulkier mons that can take it on like Gourgeist/Roselia/Type: Null/Lickilicky/Flareon that can take at least one hit from an unboosted Lilli and then either cripple it with status or do some hefty damage with Poltergeist/Sludge Bomb/U-turn/Body Slam/Flare Blitz respectively.

One of Lilli's biggest problems this generation was the loss of Hidden Power as a coverage move. Now instead of choosing Fire or Ice coverage, it is limited to Grass, Bug, and Normal as its only offensive types. That being said, these moves are more than enough to make up for that. Pollen Puff lets it hit Grass types super effectively, namely Appletun which would otherwise be a decent check to it but instead dies to it at +1, as well as hitting Gourgeist neutrally, having a decent chance to OHKO offensive Regular Gourgeist after rocks. Even SpDef Roselia has to be careful to not take too much damage or risk being killed by it.

Overall, I do think Lilligant is much more broken the aforementioned Galardash. Being able to cripple checks with Sleep Powder, boosting Speed at the same time as Special Attack makes it much harder to be revenge killed, and even though its coverage is limited, it still has the tools to get through most checks, especially with a little hazard support. I thought Flareon being a new addition would help minimize its brokenness but Flareon I think Flareon is a little too mediocre outside of this role to make it not broken. Lilligant to me seems to restricting and almost requires one of either Flareon, Klinklang, Type: Null, or Roselia on every team. While these are all good and common Pokemon, I still do think Lilligant should be banned.

Guts Superpower go brrr. In reality, this mon has such amazing variability. AV, Flame Orb, RestTalk, Sub Bulk Up, and Choice Band are all very viable options. The more offensive sets like Guts and CB have virtually no switchins due to Throh's really good offensive coverage, especially having Knock Off to hit the Ghosts immune to Facade and Storm Throw/Superpower. Speaking of Storm Throw, Sub Bulk Up with Mold Breaker is one of the best stallbreakers in the tier and most stall teams, although fairly rare, can easily just get 6-0'd by it. Bulky Throh also can't really be OHKO'd by any move except something like Specs Beheeyem, and even then Throh outspeeds and knocks it off.

Throh's excellent bulk and power combined gives it ease in setting up Bulk Ups, firing off strong hits, while also being extremely difficult to KO. I'm not saying that Pokemon that can't be OHKO'd are banworthy just in that fact, but it does help the pro ban case. Its checks are very limited due to the extreme variability in its sets. Bulky Pokemon like Mareanie can handle Sub Bulk Up and Resttalk sets fairly well, but fall over to Guts sets with Earthquake. Poison Jab can be put on AV sets to beat Galardash, none of our other Ghosts or Psychics are bulky enough to tank a Knock Off from offensive sets unless they run a Colbur Berry save for Gourgeist-Super, which is a great Throh counter if it runs Skill Swap. In summary, I think the sheer variability between Throh sets and the lack of consistent checks and counters is enough to ban Throh or at least suspect it.

I've started using Drifblim a lot recently and I am LOVING it. Weakness Policy sets are so good with Drifblim's high HP making it difficult to KO. In addition, +2 Shadow Ball and Acrobatics hits an insane amount of Pokemon super hard. It needs minimal Attack investment to always OHKO Throh at +2 and +2 Shadow Ball does ahuge chunk to both Stunfisk and Klinklang. Unburden also lets it outspeed Choice Scarf Adamant Boltund, Manectric, and most other common scarfers. The main Pokemon it can struggle with are Morpeko and Pawniard, but for the most part, it can handle almost the whole tier especially for a late game sweep.

Regardless of whether or not it's banworthy, I think Drifblim is pretty underrated and underused in the current meta. It's an absolutely devastating sweeper if it can get its Weakness Policy from something like Mawile and bulky Throh's Knock Off, Klinklang's Volt Switch, or Stunfisk's Discharge (if you really want to risk the para). Especially having ways of boosting its bulk directly with Calm Mind or indirectly with Strength Sap weakening physical attackers, it can definitely take a few hits. This isn't even mentioning the Heavy Duty Boots set that acts as a decent defensive Pokemon. All this being said, Drifblim is definitely a little easier to handle than the previous two Pokemon and I don't rate it as broken as Lilligant as a sweeper. However, Drifblim definitely could become an issue in the future. So tl;dr, Drifblim is an excellent mon but I don't think it's quite banworthy yet.
 

EviGaro

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
RU Leader
So I see this whole discussion about dumb mons and I'm like wtf why is this not the one thing people are discussing:



Making teams in this tier has revolved for a while now about how to prevent Klinklang to just flat out beat you outright, and the answers people are coming up with are in my opinion so restricted that it's completely unhealthy for the tier. Essentially, what beats Klinklang's setup nearly 100% and can fit on enough play styles boils down to: Dubwool, Mareanie, Rest Stunfisk, and Rest Throh. That's about it...? I'll go a bit in depth as to why quite a few of those sets are another problem, but even then we're talking about two mons that are lowering in viability currently, and two mons that would really like to run other sets a lot of the time.

Beyond limited guaranteed counterplay, what makes Klinklang so good? Essentially, like most dumb setup sweepers, it has a really good setup move - I mean duh - and one stab that is extremely functional and difficult to play around safely, which it has in Gear Grind. Now Klinklang has... basically nothing else, but just the combo of those two moves is so good by itself that it doesn't necessarily matter. From there on, you realize that Toxic limits almost any mid ground counterplay really badly, like your Sandslash / Tangela / non rest Stunfisk, so you put that in, and you still have a flexible moveslot at the end. Protect is great, helps getting recovery and inflict more status damage, Sub makes it even more a pain vs Tangela teams that are basically forced in a loss, and you even still have Volt Switch as an option, not necessarily the most ideal option a lot of the time but makes stuff like Mareanie / Rest Pyuku on stall really difficult to use vs Klinklang, so it's not bad. While there's a choice to be made there that can have negative consequences, the other three moves are just so good for it that it's almost essentially a luxury. Adding to that, Klinklang is very flexible in terms of eving. Bulkier variants make fodder of some weak scarfers and allow it to be a nuisance to Gorse / Lilligant* a lot easier, but offensive variants come with their own benefits too: frailer stuff like Boltund, Manectric, Dugtrio-Alola, Hitmonchan, can take at least one hit from bulky variants and retaliate with enough damage that Klinklang would require healing wish support to do its thing, however if Klinklang runs a full on offensive set, all these mons are severely at risk of being KOd after minimal hazard chip, which makes them really difficult to use in game considering they are purely emergency Klinklang checks, they are never, and should never be, your dedicated Klinklang counterplay. Essentially, it's just added versatility for Klinklang, which adds on to the problems. While one set is better vs certain matchups than the other, it's still fundamentally not useless, an important distinction because some of its counterplay actually has that problem.

More on that here, but let's start with two replays from pupl finals, one is keppy vs procopius and the other is star vs ktut

First game: Proco actually has really good Klinklang counterplay. It's likely Helmet Stunfisk (maybe rest but also was not revealed), which obviously walls first and then there's a SubBU Throh that in theory largely gives pause. Adding to that, he has Specs Rime, so it's a problem to switch into, and Lilligant to take advantage of all that pressure late game. Proco also gets totally bodied by Klinklang late game. The why is super interesting, because here keppy took advantage of the multiple reasons why the counterplay to it is actually problematic. First off, Growth Tangela shuts down Throh pretty badly, which pauses a threat to Proco because then both of his answers to Klang are in high risk of losing to Tangela, and his offensive counterplay that works just happen to be a bit too slow vs Keppy's team. The other problem comes from having to use Stunfisk: While Rest would make it safer here. Proco is quite obviously using an extremely offensive team, relying on Throh + Dusknoir to sponge hits while dishing out a lot of pressure. However, Rest Stunfisk completely kills that, because he can't afford to have such a massive momentum loss on that team, so you kinda have to either throw that out to not lose to half the tier or you keep it to not lose to Klang but still invites in everything that takes advantage of you. There's basically zero winning situation here, and Proco spends all the game between two struggles and has to rely on Lilligant stealing that game with Lilligant things, which doesn't happen because Klang takes that on pretty well at the end.

The second game is a bit more w/e, but still has a similar issue in the sense that it makes counterplay really difficult to move away from convention otherwise you can just get bodied. Star has an helmet Sandslash and a Throh, but it's flame orb, and that last fact becomes a problem really fast because Klang protects away really easily until it's chipped and forces Throh out of other mons because it still needs to take hits but it can't really, which explains the early healing wish from star. Sandslash gets frozen sure but it's really hard to keep as well, while it works in theory when you are building the way the game works makes it almost impossible to suffice. Ultimately star can't get enough on Klinklang to win the game with Lilligant, while he's more pressured by ktut's team to use his earlier.

Both games are different and by no mean examples of Klinklang being oh lol 6-0 at preview, but I wanted to showcase them as examples of just how fricking difficult it is to work around when building. If you go more passive, you get exploited by a team applying pressure on you that's irrespective of Klinklang's ability early in the game. If you go more offensive, you're forced almost all game to consider what exactly do you need to keep late game to make sure you don't lose to it but that late game can happen in around 20 turns so there's not a lot of leeway. Klinklang forces choices on building that are extremely linear, whereas it gives its team a ton more options to work around counterplay. While Klang can adjust itself, it's even more to your advantage to exploit the small ways people can try to work around not losing to it. And it's not just that, a ton of those sets are just kinda bad. CurseRest Tangela is the most obvious warning sign lol, but stuff like Rest Stunfisk is ungodly without Klang, and still kinda is, and Throh can't really run rest well this gen either if it wants to boost, no Sleep Talk is way too passive and no way to hit ghosts is awful, especially when SubBu is just so good in the whole metagame as it is.

So yes, I want Klinklang out of the PU metagame, because I want to look at the builder and think that I should not have to use two mons that have their own issues with it already, or use Dubwool because yeah it's great buuuut it struggles hard in this tier. No other mon forces those choices like Klinklang does, you have a ton more option to deal with Throh, Driftblim, Gorse than you have Klinklang because a lot of the sets that are quite decent against those are just generally good in the overall metagame, whereas Klinklang forces you to run already problematic nonsense that puts you at a disadvantage in a metagame that is highly offensive and saturated with threats as is.

*Small note on Lilligant also, but Lilligant is broken, will always be broken, and should be banned. I didn't want to state the obvious for a second generation but it's easily the biggest nonsense in the tier when taken alone and it makes any game potentially awful.
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Council Minutes

Meta Discussion:

  • We've been following along with posts here and discussing what, if anything, might need action. That being said, we skipped even doing council minutes last week just because taking action on something borderline that doesn't leave the meta significantly unplayable (Klinklang, Lilligant, Throh, etc.) really isn't ideal with a major tier shift projected in slightly over a week.
  • That said if we had complete freedom to suspect, the three things we would most want to look at are Throh, Lilligant, and Klinklang. Evigaro made a very comprehensive post right above this one on the latter, Lilligant's Sleep and set variance remain a pain albeit a more manageable one than what we had in SM, and Throh is just incredibly good at everything it does. I'm not sure any of these 3 would get banned if we just had a council vote, let alone a whole suspect test, but we're definitely keeping an eye on them.

VR and Other Votes:

  • There's been some decent VR discussion about the merits of Rime and Throh in S, but we didn't want to do a small update mostly just for that before the tier shift. Expect a VR vote very soon if the shift is pretty minor and we can assess new drops fairly easily, and as soon as is reasonable if we get some highly impactful and/or broken stuff.

Forum Happenings:

  • This roundup is the real reason for doing council minutes. For starters, Smogon Snake Draft week 1 is up, hopefully we can get some nice high quality games to allow up PUPL. We also have a discussion thread for predictions and game analysis.
  • It's also time for the PU Open Finals, for which Roseybear and Dominatio should be duking it out this Wednesday at 3pm EST. So far we haven't had much in the way of interesting top 16 games but hopefully this tour ends strong.
  • ADV PU is being revived as a fun extra old gen to add to your PU repertoire in this minitour. Round 1 is already up but there is a slight chance anyone who missed it still might make it in as a sub.
  • Tomorrow doesn't just bring tier shifts, but also the start of official room tours. 3 tours a day, 7 days a week, all through the month of September. There's single and double elimination and old gens all the way back to ADV, eventually leading up to a playoffs for those who can stay on top of the leaderboard for the month. The tour is designed to where you should just be able to join what you want and not need to make every single one to qualify, so relax and enjoy!
  • You can look forward to at least one new forum project pretty soon, as well as the return of Victim of the Week.

Not seeing a real need for discussion points, the tier shift tomorrow should be a pretty obvious shakeup worth talking about.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-september-2020.3669761/
Arctovish moved from NU to PUBL
Bouffalant moved from NU to PU
Gourgeist-Small moved from NU to PU
Liepard moved from NU to PU
Lurantis moved from NU to PU
Luxray moved from NU to PU
Politoed moved from NU to PU
Silvally-Water moved from NU to PU

Leafeon moved from ZU to PU

Dugtrio moved from PU to ZU
Hattrem moved from PU to NFE

Brief initial thoughts- no interest in unbanning Vish, Bouff/Gourg/Liepard/Lurantis will probably all be really good like A/A+ material probably, don't know how to feel about Silvally-Water fitting in with the other Silvallies especially since it's not really like other offensive waters in the tier at all. More Lilligant checks is cool but this doesn't seem like a big difference maker for Throh or Klinklang.
 

Bag of Trixx

I like to call it a passion
is a Pre-Contributor
I've decided I would dump some moveset ideas + my opinions for all the new drops! First and foremost, it's SO SAD we didn't get the birb, but we did get some really cool things soooo I cannot be too upset (RIP CRAMORANT, maybe next time). Shout-out to Specs keppy avarice and EviGaro for help on some of these!


I think this mon is definitely going to be the most meta-impacting out of everything here. Not only is it a Normal type which is excellent for the Poltergeist spam from Gourgeist's and Dusknoir's everywhere, but it even has Sap Sipper to further help vs the other annoying Grass which is Lilligant. On top of this, it now has access to Throat Chop and Close Combat, giving it a way to further combat the Ghosts and the Rock/Steels for even more power than Earthquake. Backed with incredible natural bulk, excellent immunities, setup potential in the likes of Swords Dance or some obscure Cotton Guard-Amnesia cheese, as well as powerful natural STAB supported by its monstrous base 110 ATK, this better-looking Dubwool is definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Sub SD
Bouffalant @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 224 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Body Slam
- Throat Chop

-- 36 Speed allows you to outspeed Type:Null and Gourgeist-Super, allowing you to dodge a potential Toxic/Wisp and SD in front of them. Also, 224 SpD prevents non-Life Orb Rapidash-Galar's Psychic from breaking Sub.

Choice Band
Bouffalant @ Choice Band
Ability: Reckless / Sap Sipper
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Charge / Body Slam
- Megahorn / Throat Chop
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Throat Chop

-- This might be the set that pushes Bouffalant over the top. Ridiculous damage output coming from a CB Reckless-boosted STAB Head Charge combined with EdgeQuake coverage and Megahorn for Tangela sounds almost unbeatable. Outside of things like Crustle, Defensive Helmet Throh, Tangela on a predicted switch, Dusclops, Gourgeist-Super, and Klinklang on a predicted switch (although I highly doubt this mon enjoys taking a Head Charge), Bouffalant probably 2HKOs or OHKOs the entirety of the PU metagame. 216 Spe outspeeds everything up to max speed base 50s.

Assault Vest
Bouffalant @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Atk / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Close Combat
- Megahorn / Zen Headbutt
- Throat Chop

This set allows Bouffalant to abuse its natural bulk and go with an AOA set utilizing AV to further boost its defensive capabilities, being able to take 2 Ice Beams/Psychics from Specs Mr. Rime as well as Specs Golduck's Hydro Pump having a role to 3HKO. Close Combat allows Bouffalant to hit not only opposing Bouffalant but Klinklang as well whereas Zen Headbutt is slashed here as a way to 3HKO rest-talk Throh. 220 Atk allows Bouffalant to 2HKO defensive Appletun guaranteed after rocks or have a 75% chance to 2HKO without hazards. 40 Spe allows Bouffalant to outspeed Type: Null and Gourgeist-Super.


Gourgeist-Small actually has a few considerable aspects that set it apart from it's bigger forms and the most notable is the Speed. Base 99 is quite nice because one of Gourg's biggest issues is Unfezant. However, Unfezant only comes in at a base 93 Speed stat meaning that lil pumpkin here outspeeds naturally and can threaten with Life Orb/Choice Band Rock Slides much more easily. On top of this, Gourgeist-Small even has much more success at pulling off some SubTox/Seed sets because of this newly found Speed. This one might also be better at pulling off some Nasty Plot sets once again.

Choice Band
Gourgeist-Small @ Choice Band
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak / Explosion OR Foul Play
- Power Whip

This set utlizes Gourgeist-Smalls stellar Speed to get the jump vs a majority of the mons that regular Gourgeist could not outpace without a Choice Scarf, mainly Unfezant and Golduck. Although Shadow Sneak is better so you can reliably 2HKO Mr. Mime-Galar, a mon you cannot outspeed, however Explosion is still an excellent nuke vs bulky itemless Psychics such as Musharna and Gourg-counters like Bouffalant. Foul Play is a safer option for Bouffalant.

Nasty Plot
Gourgeist-Small @ Weakness Policy / Colbur Berry / Itemless
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast


This mon is EASILY the most exciting for me. A fast, strong Dark type with access to U-Turn as well as Limber preventing a Static from the annoying Stunfisk is honestly fantastic. 106 Speed allows Liepard to outpace everything bar Raichu, Dugtrio-Alola, and Boltund however Sucker Punch is still most definitely problematic for them due to their weak defensive capabilities. Liepard also has access to Play Rough for Fightings and Dragons, Gunk Shot for Fairies, and Knock Off for team support. Nasty Plot could also can be nice because Liepard now has access to Burning Jealousy, meaning it can comfortably 2HKO Klinklang and Shiinotic after +2. However, Liepard doesn't have access to Psychic unlike Thievul, meaning Throh still comfortably handles the cat. However, Liepard also opens up weather once again to PU which has always been a playstyle that PU players enjoy. Although Heat Rock and Drought are still banned, Damp Rock is still readily available along with prominent Rain abusers such as Drednaw, Golduck, Ludicolo and CM Thunder Drifblim.


Choice Band
Liepard @ Choice Band
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / Gunk Shot / Trick

Play Rough is certainly mandatory, as it is Liepard's only chance of picking off a weakened Throh, however U-turn allows you to safely bring in an Unfezant to get that U-turn core going. Sucker Punch is probably more beneficial to deal with faster threats like Raichu, however Gunk Shot is excellent for dealing with Shiinotic or Tangela after losing its Eviolite. Trick is an excellent addition to Liepard's movepool for its ability to further hinder defensive teams.


Grassy Terrain Unburden Abuser
Liepard @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Burning Jealousy
- Shadow Ball

This set utilizes Liepard's incredible Unburden ability paired with Grass Terrain from Grookey and Nasty Plot to provide for a very strong, very fast sweeper on offensive teams. Burning Jealousy is a new move added to Liepard's arsenal which allows it to 2HKO Klinklang and Shiinotic at +2. Shadow Ball is the next best coverage Liepard has and would be the strongest special option to hit Fighting types such as Throh.

NP Copycat
Liepard @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Burning Jealousy
- Copycat


Weather Support
Liepard @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rain Dance
- U-turn
- Taunt / Thunder Wave
- Knock Off


Lurantis provides more defensive utility for PU as another bulky Grass type for the tier. However with Contrary Superpower and Leaf Storm; it separates itself from other grass types such as Appletun by establishing itself as a setup sweeper. On top of this, Lurantis has a plethora of team support options such as Defog, Aromatherapy, and Knock Off. Lurantis still however faces stiff competition on the offensive spectrum from the likes of Lilligant and Leafeon, however Lurantis shines over these two for its ability to punch through Bouffalant.

Contrary Mixed Attacker
Lurantis @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 80 SpA / 32 SpD / 148 Spe
Calm Nature
- Superpower
- Knock Off / Defog
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis

--This set makes use of Lurantis' overall natural bulk furthur supported by Contrary making up for the lack of offensive investment. Leaf Storm is such a powerful STAB, allowing it to boost through its would-be resists such as Gourgeist, whereas Superpower hits most of the mons who otherwise more reliably resist or are immune to Leaf Storm such as Klinklang and Bouffalant. Superpower is also nice for being able to boost on Type: Null and Knock Off hits otherwise would-be counters such as Roselia. 148 Spe allows you to outspeed everything up to Tangela, who is comfortably 2HKOd from Leaf Storm after losing its Eviolite, whereas 32 SpD allow Lurantis to avoid the 2HKO from Tangela's Sludge Bomb and Choice Scarf Golduck's Ice Beam. Defog is excellent for its ability to further support teams who are weak to Stealth Rock or Spikes, however Knock Off is excellent for the more offensive approach Lurantis provides.


An offensive electric type is nothing new to PU, but always appreciated. Especially when Luxray also provides exceptional wallbreaking potential, setup sweeper capabilities, as well as a status absorber. Furthermore, Luxray's exceptional coverage options such as Fire/Ice/Psychic Fangs and Crunch in tandem with Superpower and the devastating Guts-boosted Facade make Luxray a fierce competitor for its debut in the tier.

Agility +3 Attacks
Luxray @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Facade
- Crunch
- Wild Charge / Spark

This set makes use of Luxray's skyhigh Attack stat further boosted by Guts by also supporting it with a boost in speed through Agility, allowing Luxray to try and sweep through weakened teams who aren't able to outpace a +2 Luxray. Facade might as well be considered STAB due to its incredible power, having a reliable chance to 2HKO Stunfisk. Wild Charge is the main form of STAB, however Spark is a weaker option so Luxray doesn't kill itself with Wild Charge recoil + burn (Spark > Thunder Fang because they are the same BP and for its ability to never miss as well as 30% to paralyze vs a 10% flinch chance). Crunch is excellent for being able to bypass all forms of Gourgeist.

All-Out-Attacker
Luxray @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Volt Switch
- Facade
- Crunch
- Wild Charge

This set is designed for Luxray to not only act as a fantastic wallbreaker, but also grants it the ability to pivot with Volt Switch. Same coverage applies as the Agility +3 Attacks, however no need for a weaker option over Wild Charge because Luxray is here to get as much damage as possible.


Politoed is an EXCELLENT addition to the PU tier. Mono Water is a good defensive typing, backed by its overall decent defensive stats further supported by its immunity to Water and access to defensive team support moves such as Encore, Haze, Scald, Toxic, and Perish Song. Because of the power Choice Specs Golduck brings to most teams, having a pivot vs this behemoth provides amazing defensive synergy for many teams. On top of this, Silvally-Water was recently added to the tier and this mon checks the SD variants pretty comfortably. Politoed also provides teams another check to the likes of other top-tier threats such as Klinklang. Furthermore, Politoed has some offensive capabilities with its unique coverage options it has over competition like Golduck, namely Earth Power which although Golduck is overall stronger, Politoed's coverage threatens more teams on a typing level.

Defensive Encore
Politoed @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Scald
- Encore / Haze
- Earth Power / Ice Beam / Toxic

This set supports Politoed's defensive role for teams looking for checks for the likes of SD Silvally-Water or Silvally-Ice, and Shift Gear Klinklang. Protect is here to not only scout moves from Choice Scarfers such as Gourgeist and Unfezant, rack some more Toxic damage on opposing mons, but also to regain some more HP with Leftovers. Scald is great for furthering Politoed's defensive prowess vs physical attackers and Encore is fantastic for stopping setup sweepers in their tracks for a few turns. Conversely, Haze can be used over Encore, but Encore prevents Silvally-Water from getting more chip with U-turn if locked into Swords Dance, allowing for a free turn of Politoed to gain more HP but also fish for a free Scald Burn. Earth Power is a nice option for the 4th slot because of the coverage it provides on a defensive mon such as Politoed, allowing it to further threaten Klinklang, Mareanie, and all the Electric types who do not fear a Scald burn such as Raichu or Manectric all in one move. However, Ice Beam can be utilized here to threaten would-be switch-ins such as Tangela and Gourgeist. Or Toxic can be the final option to further threaten other bulky mons such as Appletun, opposing Politoed, and Silvally-Water. 96 Spe allows Politoed to outspeed max speed base 50s as well as speed crept mons such as Sandslash.

Utility Scarfer
Politoed @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald / Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Toxic / Endeavor

Politoed has a respectable base 70 Spe paired with good offensive capabilities further supported by its movepool and versatility. Although Choice Scarf Politoed isn't going to be revenge killing healthier mons as easily like Golduck, nor will it have the offensive momentum paired with its higher damage output; but Politoed relies on its better defensive capability while also threatening offensive teams with its utility. Scald is going to be the preferred move clicked assuming it isn't trying to revenge kill a weakened mon who would die to its coverage, however Surf or Hydro Pump could be interchanged here for some higher damage output. However, Scald is preferred for its utility vs offensive teams. Ice Beam and Earth Power provide Politoed with the most offensive coverage possible, as well as dealing with Politoed's weaknesses such as Tangela, Raichu, Choice Specs Manectric, and Boltund. Toxic is also excellent for the final move here, as a way to further cripple mons who'd be able to outspeed Politoed or wouldn't mind switching into most of its coverage such as SubCM Drifblim or Silvally-Water. Endeavor could be considered over Toxic however, to even further cripple some really bulky mons who could wall Politoed no matter what such as Type: Null and Appletun, assuming Politoed is in range of any little damage killing it.



Silvally-Water is an absolute offensive menace added to the tier. Multi Attack paired with its incredible coverage options further boosted by Swords Dance or even mixed variants with Work Up truly make Silvally-Water a dangerous addition, however with the rise in faster offensive Electric types such as Choice Band Boltund, faster offensive Ice types such as Nasty Plot Mr. Mime-Galar w/ Freeze Dry, faster Grass types such as Choice Band Gourgeist-Small, other offensive pivots who outspeed and reliably check it such as Choice Scarf Unfezant, Morpeko, and Manectric, as well as bulky Grass types such as Appletun could keep Silvally-Water at bay (hopefully). However, outside of its obvious outstanding offensive potential, Silvally-Water also provides incredible defensive synergy for the tier with the likes of more Defog support paired with pivoting options in U-turn and Parting Shot.

Swords Dance (PLEASE DON'T BE BROKEN)
Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Psychic Fangs
- Flame Charge / U-turn

Short, sweet, and to the point: Silvally-Water has incredible coverage paired with its already ridiculous Swords Dance + Multi-Attack combo. Psychic Fangs is mandatory for being able to get through Haze Mareanie as well as an option vs Roselia. Flame Charge is used as the 4th move for not just a way to hit Grass types super-effectively, but to provide Silvally-Water a way to outspeed the faster Electrics such as Boltund, Raichu, and Manectric. However, U-turn is always a fine option to provide offensive momentum vs would-be switch-ins such as Politoed, Palpitoad, and Tangela.

All-Out-Attacker
Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Multi-Attack
- Psychic Fangs
- Flamethrower

Basically the exact set as Swords Dance Silvally-Water, however instead of setting up, AOA Silvally-Water is to act more so as a breaker as well as a momentum-swinger with the likes of U-turn. The other major difference is dropping Flame Charge for Flamethrower, allowing Silvally-Water a more reliable way to handle Tangela and Gourgeist.

Work Up Mixed/Special Attacker
Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Naive Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Work Up
- Surf / Multi-Attack
- Thunderbolt / Grass Pledge
- Ice Beam

This set supports Silvally-Water's potential for getting past most of its physical checks such as Gourgeist-Super, Tangela, Palpitoed, and Politoed. Silvally-Water can very easily go fully specially offensive, or it can go with a Mixed Attacker set by changing Surf to Multi-Attack just for the higher damage output from the stronger STAB. Thunderbolt is preferred for it's ability to not only threaten opposing Water types but for also 2HKOing Drifblim, however Grass Pledge is a fine alternative for being able to hit all Water types including Palpitoad, assuming it rises in usage to check Silvally-Water. And Ice Beam is most preferred because of its ability to get past all Grass types including Appletun, who would otherwise tank a Flamethrower rather comfortably.

Defensive Defog
Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 120 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Multi-Attack
- U-turn
- Flamethrower / Ice Beam

This set is designed to provide a defensive approach to Silvally's playstyle due to its access to Defog and U-turn, backed with its overall outstanding natural bulk. Multi-Attack is mandatory for Silvally-Water's highest damage output, whereas U-turn is here to initiate momentum. Defog helps teams by removing hazards and Flamethrower provides a comfortable 3HKO vs Klinklang, however Ice Beam grants Silvally-Water's highest damage output vs all the Grass types in the tier. 120 Spe allows Silvally-Water to outspeed offensive Klinklang.
 
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I've been messing around with Seadra a little bit and I think it's a cool mon. Seadra's interesting because it has exactly the same special attack and speed as Golduck, but with Eviolite it has much better physical defense, so it serves more of a more defensive role. Poison Point allows it to passively punish physical attackers and discourage U-turns and Flip Turns. The new drops Politoed and Silvally-water both give it competition, but it has significantly better physical bulk than either of them, as well as Flip Turn and Poison Point, so I think it still has a place as defensive status-spreading pivot.

Seadra is a pretty malleable mon, but I've used two main spreads with it. The first spread is much tankier, EVed to outspeed Adamant Pawniard. The second spread makes use of its solid speed tier, outspeeding stuff like Falinks, Drednaw, Mr. Rime, and Luxray, while 2HKOing offensive Roselia with Ice Beam after rocks. Obviously Seadra doesn't like Knock Off, but Knock Off users risk activating Poison Point. It doesn't have reliable recovery, so Wish passers like Lickilicky can give it more longevity. I'll just leave a couple calcs to show how bulky the mon is.

252 Atk Guts Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Seadra: 218-258 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Seadra: 140-166 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silvally-Water Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Seadra: 82-97 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

:ss/seadra:
Seadra @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Toxic
- Clear Smog / Ice Beam

:ss/seadra:
Seadra @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 48 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam
- Toxic / Clear Smog
 

MZ

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dalton.jpgPU COUNCIL VOTE INCOMINGdalton.jpg
:Silvally: :Bouffalant: :Throh: :Lilligant: :Klinklang:
The PU Council will be voting on 5 Pokemon with the results coming out sometime Sunday.

:Silvally: Silvally-Water: This is very similar to all the vallies we've had previously. There's checks, both offensive and defensive, but very little to do about safely switching in and all of its best defensive stops are very easy to pivot on into a powerful abuser since they tend to be on the extreme passive side. Both Work Up and Swords Dance are quite threatening and in the limited time it's been around I've seen a good few different sets and techs. This is a Pokemon with a lot of variability, at preview you don't always know what type the Silvally is and once you do know it's still hard to tell what it's going to do.
MZ personal opinion: Strong ban lean. I don't think the checks really balance it out, risk/reward on this thing is insane and it's such a crazy balance punisher. It will button and you will either have the right matchup/set guess, or you won't. I also do not want to revisit the other Silvallies until post-Tundra and this is just like those so why would we keep it around.

:Bouffalant: Bouffalant: PU hasn't had a good strong Normal-type since Silvally-Normal was banned, Bouffalant brings the extreme power of Choice Banded Reckless Head Charge and the bulk and utility of Substitute+Swords Dance sets. Individually neither might be too crazy, but the ability to abuse the incorrect switchin is potent. Its potential for strong techs might not be quite as deep as Silvally-Water, but I've also only scratched the surface with just CB and SubSD.
MZ personal opinion: Very much don't know. Individually neither CB nor SubSD has been very impressive, good but not banworthy. I'm waiting to see how much Bouff's variability leads to dumb risk/reward scenarios where you can play around CB or SubSD but not both at the same time. Also want to see if more sets like SubToxic, Assault Vest, etc. add to that dynamic.

:Throh: Throh: It's been really good for a long time, Flame Orb and Sub+Bulk Up are the more oppressive end of offensive sets where Specially Defensive is quite good but still not something I think most people find to be a problem. Similar to Bouffalant, it can either be a really strong breaker that rips a hole in your team or a fat booster that abuses the defensive switchin and there's not a ton to do aside from have Growth on that Tangela or other similar techs. That being said, it's slow and weak to some common stuff and we've had it around for a while.
MZ personal opinion: No ban, it's just not the big meta oppressor right now and I think we've come to deal with it far better than certain other Pokemon.

:Lilligant: Lilligant: Quiver Dance + Sleep Powder can just steal games it's not even funny. We have very few good scarfers that outpace +1 Lilligant, sets like Substitute and Petal Dance really add to its ability to suddenly wreck your team out of nowhere, but even vanilla Lilligant can and will beat your Specially Defensive Klinklang if it's lucky enough.
MZ personal opinion: No ban, I really hate having it around and think the meta would be better without its potential to drop something stupid on you but I'm highly reticent to ban something that isn't running the meta yet. That being said I have zero qualms with revisiting this if Bouffalant and/or Klinklang get banned, broken doesn't need to check broken especially in Lilligant's case.

:Klinklang: Klinklang: See EviGaro's post above. It's incredibly difficult to beat this long-term and really restrictive at builder, you either have these fairly passive defensive stops like Mareanie and Rest Stunfisk and Rest Pyukumuku or offensive checks that die after extremely minimal chip like Alolan Dugtrio and Manectric.
MZ personal opinion: Leaning ban. It's the #1 thing I rework teams for because it just sorta beats everything except for the passive as all hell mons, annoying to prep for in all the wrong ways. I also want to go off on the SpDef sets. I don't think the defensive utility argument ever holds water, but particularly in this case it's not even good at stopping Ices or Galardash or anything else really. Just look at tlenit vs keppy from this week's snake game and imagine what would've happened if Focus Blast hit for the first example that comes to mind, it will just drop to coverage or get chipped quickly or die to a +2 High Horsepower or whatever. I think this is a really negative presence offensively and defensively it's mostly just a crutch that doesn't actually add all that much, as strapped as we are for Ice resists.
 
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SergioRules

||blimp||
is a Community Contributor
been super busy these past few days but finally have time to talk about the drops like every month, also going to talk about how the "broken mons" in my other post are affected by them
Bouffalant is such a cool mon with some minor but very abusable versatility. Grass types have something a little more difficult to deal with now in addition to Appletun. Gourgeist especially will not like this mon being here and even offensive sets will probably want to run Will-o-Wisp or Toxic to be able to better check this. Sub SD is my immediate favorite because I also enjoyed using it last gen as a sort of discount Normal breaker that wasn't Stoutland or Kang, but now with those not being viable or not in the tier, Bouffalant can shine as the tier's premier offensive Normal-type. New check to Drifblim and Lilli.
Gourgeist-Small is a little more than just another Gourgeist. Being above the 90 base Speed tier is great for beating Pokemon like Leafeon, Silvally Rock and Water, Lilligant, and Klinklang. I personally think that Nasty Plot sets will be better as the Pokemon in the speed tiers between the normal and small Gourgeist forms are more threatened by those sets than physical ones (or are equally threatened by both). Ifusing physical sets, probably better to use Normal, but I'm sure there are situations where you might want some extra speed so you probably can't go wrong.
In a current meta where, outside of Scarfers, the fastest Pokemon is generally Galardash, we now have a Pokemon that naturally outspeeds it and has super-effective coverage for it. CB Liepard is one of my favorite Pokemon currently, fast U-turns, strong Knock Off+Sucker Punch combo, and a ton of coverage options to fill that last slot. Very fun mon that I am excited to use here.
Lurantis is a very interesting mon. It was a great Defogger last gen, but I think now it could possibly be better as a general offensive mon. Leaf Storm, Superpower, and Knock Off have great coverage for the tier. Synthesis in the last slot makes for a very threatening offensive boosting mon with good longevity too. Defog is definitely an option, and with other support in Aromatherapy, Lurantis will have a lot of versatility and I feel will be used very often.
In a generation where everything gets Close Combat and a ton of new coverage moves, Luxray got...Agility? I guess Guts sets can now be faster which is a threat, but the overall lack of good physical Electric moves really puts Luxray at a disadvantage from the get-go. Guts may still be threatening, but overall I don't see Luxray being too good. Maybe they'll ad new move tutors in Crown Tundra and actually give stuff like this, Electivire, and Boltund good physical STABs.
Politoed is a cool addition, a nice check to most Water types, new access to Earth Power to do a little more to Electrics and Steels. Definitely has some decent bulk, but nothing too bad to really set it apart from other bulky waters like Lapras, Seaking, or the new Silvally Water. It'll be a good check to especially the latter, but yeah overall nothing too special.
Hooray, another Silvally to ban. I'm honestly not too sure how to feel about this guy. On one hand, it's a Silvally meaning it gets great coverage and a 120 base power STAB move that has no drawbacks whatsoever. On the other hand, we do have a decent amount of Water resists in the tier. Pokemon like Appletun, Gourgeist forms, the above Politoed and Lurantis, and Mareanie all can do a decent job of checking Silvally Water, and while it does have the coverage to beat most of them, it has to choose its 4 moves carefully. Especially if it wants to run either Defog or Swords Dance while also having Parting Shot/U-turn to pivot. Not sure how this'll play out but I think I'm also with MZ on the ban side of this.
 
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I wanted to write a post about Silvally-Water, which many people already believe to be bannable. I share this belief and wanted to back it up with a few calculations and replays from one of the SS official roomtours.

Silvally-Water has the frightening set diversity of all of the other Silvallies, but also a great defensive typing for PU. Being weak to only grass and electric severely hinders the ability to revenge kill silvally without losing momentum, as being locked into grass or electric type moves respectively leaves a team open for a free move from Bouffalant or Unfezant or open to hazards from opposing Stunfisk or Sandslash.

Despite the great typing, I originally believed that the tier had passed the point of "good" Silvallies being broken. I believed the presence of priority and fast scarfers -- specificaly Unfezant -- would allow teams to revenge kill Silvally without much trouble. I was wrong about this though as substitute -- which can be clicked on one of many Pokemon who are forced by Silvally-Water to click status or switch out -- causes many of these would-be revenge-killers to lose 1v1 to silvally. Furthermore, if you try to preserve your scarfer with u-turn, the sub is unlikely to break:
252 Atk Unfezant U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Silvally-Water: 73-87 (22 - 26.2%) -- 10.9% chance to 4HKO
.

The first replay I want to share is one in which Silvally got fairly lucky, but the fact remains that it could 1v1 every pokemon on the opposing team. It would only need to sacrifice its HP to kill Unfezant or Tangela, opening the opponent's team up for a sweep from Manectric or Liepard.

The second replay features work up + 3 attacks Silvally-Water, which can 1v1 most checks to water types (politoed, lurantis, tangela) and does the kind of damage that you would expect an NU Pokemon to do in PU.

The third replay is possibly the most damning, as it shows the way that Silvally solos scarfers once it is behind a sub. My opponent couldn't afford to lose their scarfer in this situation, but was forced to after u-turn didn't break the sub. Once the scarfer is gone, my own scarfer + fast band swept through the team without much trouble. This creates an extremely unhealthy meta, in which the goal is to stack Silvally-Water with faster Pokemon who sweep through teams when they are forced to sacrifice their scarfer.

Although I've gotten the impression that the majority opinion is in favor of a ban, I still wanted to add fuel to the argument in case anyone is left on the fence. Silvally-Water's ability to 1v1 nearly every non-choiced Pokemon in the tier, while also eliminating common scarfers behind a sub, makes it an extremely oppressive force in the current metagame. Paired with choiced+pivot Pokemon like Golduck, Manectric, and Liepard or given u-turn itself, it creates a situation similar to Ninjask meta where you are faced with an endless onslaught of speed and power until your scarfer (or Ninjask in the previous meta) dies, after which your entire team is swept. This is not the kind of meta that rewards diverse building and gameplay, and I think the metagame would be improved if council votes to ban Silvally-Water until the power level of the tier increases.
 
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MZ

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Council Minutes

Meta Discussion:

  • So the big topic between council this week was Klinklang, where we ended up fairly closely split. Hjad, termi, and myself all come down on the side of Klinklang being way too oppressive of a Pokemon. There are very few and constraining methods to reliably beat it, offensive scenarios almost always favor it, and the techs and building styles it forces make teams much worse versus other major threats which is the reason more things like Galarian Mr. Mime and Fire-types in general are getting a bit strong.
  • Varying from extremely on the fence to solidly do not ban, Akir, Sam I Yam, 2xTheTap, and tlenit all fell into the camp of people still being able to prep for Klinklang and therefore we should not mess with the tier right now. It's strong, top tier, oppressive to an extent, but teams are still capable of dealing with it and therefore we should not mess with the tier right now.
  • This is honestly the ideal Pokemon to suspect. Council agrees it's a huge threat but we're just split on whether we want to change the tier up or not, the question is not whether Klinklang forces a fairly unique and extreme level of prep in order to handle it but more how much people wanted to upset the balance we have right now during 2 major tournaments and less than a month away from a massive tier shift that will change everything up. Unfortunately, it's also not really a great prospect to suspect anything right now given that by the time the suspect would be over, we'd have ~1 week without the mon before said massive tier shift. We're probably just going to wait and see on whether it's worth having another vote.
  • Klinklang wasn't the only discussion topic, we're also taking notice of how strong Galarian Mr. Mime has been in the first week of Snake Draft games. Ultimately we didn't feel too interested in taking action on it, removing it would leave a plethora of other strong Ices people would need to prep for anyway even though its speed sets it apart quite well. Some of us also felt that Klinklang was basically the reason for Galarian Mr. Mime being so successful. Klinklang is so amazing it's hard to build a team without it, at that point it becomes your main Ice resist since teams are hard pressed to double down on certain defensive roles, and then Galarian Mime will steamroll right through with some Focus Blast luck. It's a trend worth noting but personally I mostly just chalk it up to Klinklang anyway.
  • We didn't have much discussion on Silvally-Water, it was pretty broken. Same as the other vallies and pretty much impossible to beat reliably, especially considering how defensively weak this tier already is.
  • Bouffalant also mostly came up to gripe about how it's hard to see this doing anything, nobody really managed to break the Pokemon yet so it'll stay for the time being. Similarly, Throh and Lilligant weren't major sources of contention, Throh was not a unanimous do not ban but overall there was little interest in discussing either.
  • As a quick side note, I think this SD 3 attacks set is Bouffallant's best right now except for maybe Sub/Taunt + Toxic stuff which I have not used. Been seeing a lot of different discussion on what it should be running and thought I'd throw this into the mix, bulky SubSD wasn't cutting it for me personally.

VR and Other Votes:

  • In case you somehow missed it, you can see more individual thoughts about yesterday's vote on the sheet here.
  • We should have a VR update completed by next Sunday (that's just the ideal time to finish votes up). It's been a hot minute since the new VR went up and there's both new drops and old placements to consider so if you want to see some change, now is the optimal time to drop some suggestions.

Forum Happenings:

  • The Next Best Thing is back for gen 8, try your hand at making up new sets with surprising niches.
  • Victim of the Week is also starting up again and can be a great resource to figure out how to check a myriad of powerful threats in the tier.
  • Official Roomtours have started again for the month of September. 3 times a day 7 days a week you can hop in whenever and enjoy some competition.
  • And also Specs has returned to the council with Snake draft pulling him out of retirement. Welcome back.

For discussion we'd mostly like to hear more about how people feel on Bouffalant, Klinklang, Throh, Lilligant, Galarian Mr. Mime and Mr. Rime, and any other major threats that you feel are worth discussing. Make VR posts too please!
 
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wooper

heavy booty-doots
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ngl, i was very surprised to see that no one had voted to ban lilligant. for the reasons outlined previously, i think that lilligant is one of the most oppressive mons we currently have in the tier, if not the most. even despite checks + counters in spdef flareon, scarf unfezant, and sap sipper bouffalant, this mon is just too much to handle, and gets exponentially worse after a quiver, or if it gets behind a sub, or puts you to sleep, or if it gets off a leaf storm, etc. speaking of bouffalant, it has definitely given me some trouble, esp banded + head charge, but other than that, none of the other mons mentioned feel too overpowered imo.
 

Finchinator

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  • Varying from extremely on the fence to solidly do not ban, Akir, Sam I Yam, 2xTheTap, and tlenit all fell into the camp of people still being able to prep for Klinklang and therefore we should not mess with the tier right now. It's strong, top tier, oppressive to an extent, but teams are still capable of dealing with it and therefore we should not mess with the tier right now. (akiredit: there was also the fact that klinklang adds to the tier by being excellent glue, and taking it out could destabilize the tier further by taking out such a good check to so many mons)
I am not one to question the tiering decisions made by communities I am more of a spectator to than an active participant of, but I do believe some of the logic employed here is something that we should pay some attention to and perhaps avoid.

The non-bolded portion is all fine and I understand that some people believe Klinklang is too much while others believe there is sufficient counterplay, leading to a close vote. I am glad that council votes are being conducted and it seems like you guys have achieved a consistent system for tiering this generation already. What I dislike is the logic in the bolded portion of the post; I believe it is logic we should avoid using when justifying bans in official/public places at any and all cost.

Bans should be decided on if the Pokemon itself is banworthy ("broken") in the metagame; for more on this, feel free to consult here and note the emphasis on the Pokemon itself as opposed to temporary balance preservation. How the Pokemon's presence limits the potential for other Pokemon in the tier should not be factored in. The bolded portion of this post implies that Klinklang's presence is holding the tier together, checking many current Pokemon. I am not here to argue that Klinklang is or is not broken because I am not informed enough to know if it is or is not broken, but I am informed enough with our tiering structure to know that the logic does not work out as reasoning to keep something unbanned.

Let's say Klinklang were to be removed from the metagame. In the worst case scenario, the banning of Klinklang would lead to something else or numerous other Pokemon being broken as direct responses to it being removed from the metagame. However, in this scenario, it would be proper to ban the initially broken Pokemon and then potentially ban any other broken Pokemon in the future if they become a problem at that point in the future. Withholding one presence for the sake of preserving defensive glue and checking otherwise problematic Pokemon is promoting a broken-checks-broken dynamic that we should look to avoid in tiering at all costs. This has been the case ever since we ditched the dark days of generation five tiering and it holds true to this day; please do note, however, that this is not me saying the result on Klinklang should be overturned. Again, I have no stake in that decision, but I do believe we should avoid using that type of reasoning.

I understand that it is late in the game; DLC is right around the corner and perhaps shaking up the metagame drastically would not be in your best interest. In addition, some people genuinely do believe Klinklang is a balanced Pokemon and there is nothing wrong with that, which your vote reflects and I, as an outsider, respect wholeheartedly. I simply believe that we should avoid the reasoning I bolded from the post at any and all cost. If we were to employ this as official reasoning/justification for any tiering inaction, then we would be permitting a build-up of broken threats in hopes of achieving an unstable balance instead of tiering how it is intended.

I think in cases like this it is best to just be honest and forthcoming about why you are proceeding as you are if it has to do with DLC timing or of it simply is like the first part of the post outlines: Klinklang is not broken in the eyes of the voters. DLC makes tiering an imperfect science at best and an absolute mess at worst. These decisions are never going to come easily to you guys or any other tier, so I would not worry too much and just be up-front about it. Best to leave the latter portion out to avoid sending the wrong message and best to not subscribe to that type of tiering logic as a whole.

tl;dr: Happy you guys are voting to shape your metagame, but best to stay away from the bolded logic
 

Akir

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I am not one to question the tiering decisions made by communities I am more of a spectator to than an active participant of, but I do believe some of the logic employed here is something that we should pay some attention to and perhaps avoid.

The non-bolded portion is all fine and I understand that some people believe Klinklang is too much while others believe there is sufficient counterplay, leading to a close vote. I am glad that council votes are being conducted and it seems like you guys have achieved a consistent system for tiering this generation already. What I dislike is the logic in the bolded portion of the post; I believe it is logic we should avoid using when justifying bans in official/public places at any and all cost.

Bans should be decided on if the Pokemon itself is banworthy ("broken") in the metagame; for more on this, feel free to consult here and note the emphasis on the Pokemon itself as opposed to temporary balance preservation. How the Pokemon's presence limits the potential for other Pokemon in the tier should not be factored in. The bolded portion of this post implies that Klinklang's presence is holding the tier together, checking many current Pokemon. I am not here to argue that Klinklang is or is not broken because I am not informed enough to know if it is or is not broken, but I am informed enough with our tiering structure to know that the logic does not work out as reasoning to keep something unbanned.

Let's say Klinklang were to be removed from the metagame. In the worst case scenario, the banning of Klinklang would lead to something else or numerous other Pokemon being broken as direct responses to it being removed from the metagame. However, in this scenario, it would be proper to ban the initially broken Pokemon and then potentially ban any other broken Pokemon in the future if they become a problem at that point in the future. Withholding one presence for the sake of preserving defensive glue and checking otherwise problematic Pokemon is promoting a broken-checks-broken dynamic that we should look to avoid in tiering at all costs. This has been the case ever since we ditched the dark days of generation five tiering and it holds true to this day; please do note, however, that this is not me saying the result on Klinklang should be overturned. Again, I have no stake in that decision, but I do believe we should avoid using that type of reasoning.

I understand that it is late in the game; DLC is right around the corner and perhaps shaking up the metagame drastically would not be in your best interest. In addition, some people genuinely do believe Klinklang is a balanced Pokemon and there is nothing wrong with that, which your vote reflects and I, as an outsider, respect wholeheartedly. I simply believe that we should avoid the reasoning I bolded from the post at any and all cost. If we were to employ this as official reasoning/justification for any tiering inaction, then we would be permitting a build-up of broken threats in hopes of achieving an unstable balance instead of tiering how it is intended.

I think in cases like this it is best to just be honest and forthcoming about why you are proceeding as you are if it has to do with DLC timing or of it simply is like the first part of the post outlines: Klinklang is not broken in the eyes of the voters. DLC makes tiering an imperfect science at best and an absolute mess at worst. These decisions are never going to come easily to you guys or any other tier, so I would not worry too much and just be up-front about it. Best to leave the latter portion out to avoid sending the wrong message and best to not subscribe to that type of tiering logic as a whole.

tl;dr: Happy you guys are voting to shape your metagame, but best to stay away from the bolded logic
Ah dang, I was trying to be cheeky and concise but it seems that I do need to go into a bit more detail.

First off, I do want to say that I generally agree with you that "broke check broke" arguments don't hold water. My voting record going back to ORAS shows this, and I still stand by it. I do believe that Klinklang counterplay could stand to be fleshed out more, but that doesn't entirely encompass my opinion of it.

The point I was going for was that banning Klinklang makes the meta less healthy. Klink is very much so one of the most important gluemons in the format, checking a large variety of mons like Lilligant, Mime G, Rime, the Silvallies, and a ton of other mons. So yes, we could ban Klink and then next week maybe 2 more and then more the week after that. But next month will be another big shift month, and that could very well mean that this could be another month of development lost. If we had more time, and I still might go for it, I would be more than happy to go for a suspect with ideally drops being a couple months away. But sitting here, I still think that banning Klink takes more from the meta than it gives. The vote is less Gen5 and closer to Gen2, if that makes sense. It is an unorthodox vote for me for an unorthodox time.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
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I would like to propose suspecting Perserrker
1599584982164.png

Now I know what your first reaction might be. Introducing another scary mon to the tier when it's already difficult enough to build? That sounds dangerous. But I think Perserrker would actually be a pokemon that makes teambuilding easier and more fun, rather than vice versa. Here is why I want to suspect it:

1) When Perserrker was banned it was already a highly controversial suspect. Three council users voted Do Not Ban, and a majority of PU players I talked to were fairly upset with the ban, since like me, they thought that it was an enjoyable part of the meta. Keep in mind that it was a fairly different meta that Perserrker was banned in.

It can easily be argued that the meta is more prepped to handle Perserrker now because of how well it has already prepped for Klinklang. With people running Rocky Helmet everywhere including on Throh, AV suffers because it gets chipped easily and spamming U-turn isn't that easy as it was in Ninjask meta. A good amount of our special attackers can deal with it- NP Rime and Mime-G are able to outspeed and OHKO with boosted +2 focus blasts, Golduck and now Politoed can easily bust through it. SD Rapidash which carries High Horsepower is actually much more common than CM sets these days. The only area where Perserrker is really that strong is offensively. While there is a potential for it to be too strong for our defensive cores, this metagame has shown that it is more than capable of handling strong wallbreakers with speed problems.

2) Perserrker provides a secondary steel-type that gives more variety to the meta. People have been complaining about how Klinklang has made the meta stale because of being near mandatory on every team. Aside from how good Shift Gear is, the bulky Steel-type role is just too valuable to pass up because of its ability to absorb Toxic and check Grass, Ice, and Psychic type moves. Perserrker is a nice alternative to Klinklang that does some things worse (cleaning teams) but some better (smashing through walls). This will enable people to build with more variety, making the meta less stale.

3) Perserrker is actually a pretty good check Klinklang check. With Leftovers and Close Combat, Klinklang can almost never beat a healthy Perserrker. Unlike most of Klinklang's regular checks, Perserrker cannot get worn down by Toxic, meaning that Klinklang actually loses momentum by clicking the move. This is exactly the kind of check you need to deal with Klinklang- something that is offensively potent and splashable, yet cannot be outstalled with Toxic and Protect over the course of a long game.

Overall, I think a lot of people agree that the metagame is pretty stale and centralized now. It's hard to make any changes because removing a threat could lead to a scenario where many other threats could become broken and unbalance the metagame (yes, this is a valid factor to consider when tiering). We don't necessarily have to remove a threat though to shake things up. We can try adding another pokemon instead of removing, giving us more options. This is how Tiering is supposed to be too- every potentially balanced pokemon should be given a chance in the tier.

TLDR; free the cat, its probably less broken now, provides variety in teambuilding and is a good Klinklang answer
 
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zS

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NUPL Champion
Since Many posted, I'm going to support his campaign of suspecting perrserker.
I've always been against the Perrserker ban because this mon was a insane defensive glue and is pretty much the same as Klinklang. But the huge difference between those 2 is that Perrserker's offensive sets weren't broken. Ofc in theory mon has everything it needs to be uncheckable offensively. Though Claws, Steely Spirit, a great offensive movepool... But this was only on paper. Perrserker had a lot of flaws that limit his offensive potential:

1- It has a terrible speed tier.
2- Offensive sets were often choice locked
3- Loses to #1 pokemon in the tier in Stunfisk
4- Offensive sets provided no defensive utility.

On the other hand, Klinklang has something that Perrs doesn't have. It's defensive set is the best set-up sweeper in the metagame. Ofc, it lacks raw power, but it has acces to toxic tect to criple down it's checks which is completely dumb. The addition of Perrserker to the tier could make Klinklang a bit less broken, and providing another fantastic glue to the metagame that isn't properly broken.

tl;dr Suspect Perrserker please and if you don't, just ban Klink.
 

ishtar

temper madness with an even extreme
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In the spirit of raising ones voice and being an expressive member of this community, I wanted to discuss a topic that has been highly debated in the community for a while, through my lens and through the showcase of a replay. I wanna thank soulgazer which whom I had a very lengthy talk discussing this topic and who greatly influenced my approach towards this subject. Klinklang has been controversial since the moment people started using ToxTect, and its effect in the meta have been shown extensively. Before I delve into the actual replay I believe that the numbers will do the talking in expressing the omnipresence of this mon, and while this on its own isn’t an example of why this Pokemon is or isn’t broken, it definitely speaks to the progress of the tier in the last month or so.

In Week 7 of PUPL, (on the week of July 26th), these were the top 5 Pokemon used more than a month ago:

| 1 | Stunfisk | 11 | 50.00% | 54.55% |

| 2 | Klinklang | 10 | 45.45% | 40.00% |

| 3 | Unfezant | 9 | 40.91% | 44.44% |

| 4 | Sandslash | 7 | 31.82% | 42.86% |

| 5 | Type: Null | 6 | 27.27% | 66.67% |

Moving onto finals (August 9):

| 1 | Klinklang | 5 | 83.33% | 60.00% |

| 2 | Stunfisk | 3 | 50.00% | 66.67% |

| 2 | Lilligant | 3 | 50.00% | 33.33% |

| 2 | Sandslash | 3 | 50.00% | 33.33% |

| 2 | Unfezant | 3 | 50.00% | 33.33% |

Smogon Snake Draft Week 1 (August 30):

| 1 | Klinklang | 8 | 80.00% | 50.00% |

| 2 | Unfezant | 6 | 60.00% | 50.00% |

| 3 | Stunfisk | 4 | 40.00% | 75.00% |

| 3 | Rapidash-Galar | 4 | 40.00% | 75.00% |

| 3 | Sandslash | 4 | 40.00% | 50.00% |

Okay well, its quite clear what Im getting at here, and while a centralized meta isn’t exactly the best indication of something going wrong, there was definitely a sentiment expressed by council regarding the meta achieving stability, and a desire for minimal council action, though obviously discussion on certain threats was encouraged:

“ideally minimal council action for the next few months and hopefully suspect testing instead” –Council Minutes, Aug 3, 2020.

“PU meta is finally getting more stable and it looks very promising. Current meta will most likely stick till next tier shifts.” –Council Minutes, Aug 17, 2020.

Of course as we know the reality of the situation lead to people considering certain threats overbearing. Over the upcoming weeks Klinklang, Throh and Lilligant were hot topics of conversation, which then lead to the drop of Silvally-W, Bouff, etc. The reason why Im showcasing all of this before going in depth on the replay is because I feel like its important to add context into the development of the tier as well as the decisions that were made during this time. I also don’t show this to showcase a wish for things to have gone differently tierwise, since thatd be futile and I also wanted to wait and see how the meta would change in the weeks after PUPL ended, but for me personally, and through the showcase of the usage stats, this reality of progress was barely fulfilled. Of course the utilization of breakers such as Mr Mime-Galar more predominantly has been a change in the tier, but it isn’t one that has made threats such as Klinklang or the other top 4 Pokemon less dominant, its only a way of abusing the common cores that most people have been forced to use due to the dominance of certain breakers and cores. Of course theres ways of countering this development too, for example the utilization of Pokemon such as Type:Null more predominantly, but that leads to a plethora of other issues in the tier: Pokemon such as Throh, Bouffalant or any other breaker that benefits from the passiveness of walls such as Null and that are often hard to deal with without trading suddenly become a massive pain, even Klinklang falls into this category vs more offensive teams. I believe that if the existence of Klinklang wasn’t almost required, as well as its common and very few defensive counters, a lot of solid defensive options that cover other Pokemon could become much more viable: Mawile, Licky, which in return could make Ice-types less of an issue for certain cores. (Just giving some examples but u get the point).

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8pu-516002

Before I go in depth examining this replay, I wanna say that Ill abstain from making any judgements regarding the quality of the teams but Ill definitely examine the matchups against Klinklang and the ways in which its checks and counters deal with the rest of the team. Also the teams themselves in this replay ends up being irrelevant in showcasing how Klinklang performs on one side of the field outside of the analysis regarding eifo's counterplay.

Kink has a very offensive team whose Klinklang checks are purely offensive in Scarf Manectric, unrevealed Golduck set as well as Dusknoir (I don’t believe this to be a check but some council members have brought it up as discussion points in their votes so Ill count it too). On the other side, we have Eifos team, (presumably built by ktut?). The team on paper has what some might consider a solid Klinklang matchup. You’ve got Heatmor which is able to eat hits from it with relative ease as well as Sandslash. Lets see how these checks are able to hold up in the long run:

-By turn 2, kink is able to Toxic the Heatmor with Klinklang. It’s a 82% at the end of the turn.

-By turn 4, it is revealed that eifos team doesn’t have a reliable Ghost switch in which forces Sandslash to switch in on Dusknoir. By the end of this interaction, Sandslash is at 39%.

-By turn 9, Manectrics Volt Switch from Kinks side is scouted by Protect Klinklang and then does 30% to it as it pivots into Kinks own Klinklang. It is now at 70% after Leftovers. SpDef Klink is revealed from Eifos side.

252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Klinklang: 94-112 (29 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-Kink sets up his Adamant Max Attack Klinklang in front of Eifos Spdef Klinklang. If he goes into Sandslash, it will die to +1 Gear Grind and going into Heatmor will just result in more Toxic chip stacking up. Both players are set and forced towards their own winpaths with their Klinklang. One gets slightly luckier than the other though, and this is when it gets very interesting.

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sandslash: 152-182 (42.9 - 51.4%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (assuming worst case scenario in max hp max def, which definitely isn’t whats being ran here, but just to show the damage)

-Turn 13. Now comes the amazing Klinklang vs. Klinklang war, the greatest visual feast of SS PU. In this interaction Kink gets at +2 with his Klinklang which secures a 3hko on the Spdef Klinklang, while Eifo sets his up to +3. By the end of turn 13, Kinks Klinklang is at 62%, Eifos is at 14%. Now assume that Eifo gets the highest roll and no crit:

+3 0 Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 120-142 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kinks Klinklang would live at 12%, then it would kill the opposing Klinklang. After the turn ended, this Klinklang would be able to survive Rocky Helmet damage from Sandslash due to Leftovers. The reality unfortunately for Kink is that Eifo gets a crit in one of his final attacks, which means that Kinks Klinklang is no longer able to survive vs. the Rocky Helmet chip from Sandslash, but lets discuss what would have happened if that one crit didn’t occur.

+2 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatmor: 210-248 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- approx. 2HKO

…Well, simply, Kinks Klinklang, assuming it lands all of its hits, runs through the opposing team. After a turn of Toxic, Heatmor is potentially in range of +2 Klink, and nothing else is able to take on it.

This was what some might consider a perfect team in terms of Klinklang counterplay, but due to a lack of defensive answers to other mons such as Gourg and Dusknoir, Eifo is forced to get his Slash low and potentially ran over by Klinklang in the late game. Now ofc theres always the argument of “maybe he could’ve played around the Noir better” or “Adamant Max Attack Klinklang isn’t the norm in the current meta”, but how long can we really look at these top tier games, see the amount of pressure that is put by a single mon vs. a team “well prepared for Klinklang” and assume that even the best defensive answers aren’t able to be pressured with ease like shown here?

I wanna quote a comment that MZ said in the last Untier Talk about the argument regarding offensive checks. Ill paraphrase cause im too lazy to find it actually but it goes along the lines of “a lot of these offensive checks are meant to function as breakers, breakers aren’t supposed to stay in the back to take on Klinklang, they will be worn down often by hazards, Toxic (even trades). Now this rings particularly true to the low amount of answers, and is perfectly represented by this game

So what if Max Adamant Klinklang isn’t exactly the norm? It clearly could’ve been able to get past one of these teams with so much ease, and it could become a great development for teams really wanting to pressure these offensive checks, which now thanks to the Max Attack Adamant don’t 3hko the offensive checks at +1, but instead now 2HKO them. To me that doesn’t sound reliable at all, and even if this scenario accounts for a change that hasn’t happened yet, its definitely a demonstration of the versatility that this mon still has to offer in order to get past its answers. Something else that I wanna showcase is the ridiculous uncompetitive aspect of these Klink vs. Klink wars: A double hit that can also miss, in this scenario could’ve resulted in a much more quick end game for both players, and this isn’t one that happens very scarcely.

Finally, I wanna add my two colones to an argument that I initially brought up regarding the tiers progress, and the balancing features that this tier provides, while also discussing whatever week 1 of Snake was. Week 1 of Snake was plagued by p much most players almost autolosing to a specific relevant matchup. As shown by the usage stats the development of the tier hasn’t occurred in a major way. Im not one to take away the blame for my building shortcomings since its something Im very passionate and I wanna do what I do well, but its becoming clearer and clearer that as the meta progresses and consolidates these cores, people are struggling more and more to create consistent teams. That + the added new threats and newfound problematic mons such as Mime-G and Lilligant lead to many dead ends and in my opinion, have been the catalyst of many of the shortcomings of the tier in this stage. Now I understand that there is fear of a Klinklang-less meta to be a much less balanced structure than what we have now, but as someone who built week after week for Kickoff and PUPL, Id much rather play a meta that’s slowly getting better by removing threats than a stale meta that warps around a specific core and doesn’t really go past that while also enabling more broken breakers to take advantage of it (even if its just for the sake of a few weeks and we have to deal w some broken shit) . Problems might arise, bans might and probably will happen, but whatever new techs or creative sets that have come along in these last week have shown is that the structure of the tier is barely changing despite them existing. As SG put in my convo with them: “Everything is lost when huge drops happen, klink or not”, and if were worried about the competitive aspect of tours or the meta as a whole as we move forward with these decisions, we should first look at the actual competitive state of the tier right now and see that….well, maybe its better to trying to figure this out asap if whats occurring right now isn’t really providing the best results. Unban things with the next big change, idc.

Shoutout all of the people who Ive talked about regarding this subject. Theyre way too many and I hope that this is able to change some minds as we move forward and make this tier a welcoming and fun experience for all.
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Council Minutes

Meta Discussion:

  • Just a disclaimer up front, I really didn't want to take making the massive post again, but the half of the council that's a lot less interested in banning Klinklang or Bouffalant that I wanted to get posting here is also a lot busier than the other half. Like, I tried to get 2x to write this post but today's a tax deadline and that fell through. So I'm going to try to summarize how we're feeling on these Pokemon overall but I'm still coming to this with a very strong pro-ban perspective and summarizing arguments that have been relatively less seen. Pro-ban people have been pretty actively whiny while anti-ban are relatively quiet so hopefully this summary will help explain why the council is still split when public discussion has geared (heh) fairly strongly towards the ban side of things.
  • :Klinklang: Pro-ban remains a fairly unified front of "wow this meta is clearly a bit unhealthy and things need to change and this is easily the most constrictive, problematic Pokemon at the moment". It's very easy to just run down every team in Snake and see that even the best ones that have fighting resists are still forced to leave in solid weaknesses because you can't cover everything. And not weaknesses to random B- Pokemon, weaknesses like revenge killing Galarian Rapidash or switching into Heatmor. Klinklang itself isn't the most insanely broken thing in the world, but it plays a large part in destroying teambuilding in a way that isn't really comparable to any healthy meta.
  • :Klinklang: Anti-ban more takes the approach that the tier is pretty much fine, building is difficult but some built-in weaknesses are just inherent to pretty much every single metagame. That's just how matchup be. When people make a team with significant weaknesses, that is a personal failure and not the meta's problem. We might have a lot of stacked threats that make things hard, but they're not individually broken and therefore not worth dealing with. Klinklang itself isn't even that hard to check, there's Stunfisk/Throh/Mareanie defensively and lots of random Steel resists like Raboot and Boltund offensively.
  • :Klinklang: I personally have difficulty with the "not hard to check" idea because Klinklang can break through pretty much all of its checks fairly consistently except for the extremely passive and abusable ones that fit into the meta somewhat poorly and add to the general matchup tossup nature of the meta, the more you're relying on things like Boltund to beat Klinklang it'll slowly chip through your team and the more you rely on a Rest Stunfisk you're going to find yourself matchupped by all sorts of annoying breakers and sweepers that have way more opportunities to be devastating. The anti-ban side has so far mostly come down to "it has counterplay" while not being super concerned with the idea that it might be broken at teambuilder. This is sorta the next place the pro-ban side will need to respond to, I can't summarize their thoughts here yet as effectively.
  • :Klinklang: There's also the Akir (RIP) take that if we ban Klinklang (and maybe Bouff too) we'll have to ban Galarian Mime, or Galarian Rapidash, or Lilligant, or w/e and then meta will stay broken until the next shift regardless. We'll end up in a domino state where things won't improve over the current situation, maybe it would be a course of action worth taking if there wasn't an upcoming major tier shift but we can't justify taking action at the moment. Pro-ban counterargument isn't much more than "we probably won't have to ban all these things and if we do that's still better than nothing".
  • :Bouffalant: Oh yeah this. I've shifted from being anti-ban to being pro-ban for mostly the same reason as Klinklang, it's not the most insane thing but it drives matchup issues really hard what with massive set variability, being able to break or annoy all potential checks extremely well, and there not being anything else in the tier that you prep for remotely similarly to Bouffalant. Klinklang has taken up pretty much all of our discussion but I know a few other members like termi and specs are also at least sliding a bit closer to a pro-ban stance.

VR and Other Votes:

  • We're going to have another quickvote this Sunday. The council's still fairly deadlocked on opinions but given 2 weeks after the initial vote and a lot of public support for some bans, this seems fair. It'll definitely have Klinklang and Bouffalant, likely Throh which at least a few members are in favor of banning (see: the last sheet), and likely Lilligant.
  • :Lilligant: This Pokemon is in a really weird position. Nobody feels like it's a current issue, but there is the feeling that if we banned Klinklang, Bouffalant, and Throh all at once then it'd instantly jump to being broken. The major issue with this Pokemon is that a few very common, very top-tier things give it way too much of a problem to be super unfair. While we normally wouldn't ban something this preemptively (and let me be clear I very much don't know that we'll end up banning anything, let alone all 4 Pokemon), it would only be for ~2 weeks until the shift and Lilligant has an incredibly strong case for being completely broken without these balancing factors.
  • We finally got a VR update out! I think Akir's post in the VR thread summarizes all the major points of interest so I'll briefly respond to a few of the questions thrown out on discord immediately after the update.
  • Why unrank the Gourgeists? They're not bad per-say but we couldn't find any compelling reason to use Normal or Large when Small or Super would do. If someone gave me a clear-cut niche that the other geists couldn't fill better I'd have no issue with re-ranking either.
  • Why is Luxray so high? I don't really know, this is a better question for Akir or tlenit who really like the thing.
  • Why is Morpeko above Liepard? Personally I think it fits. Liepard is both shiny new toy and can really help certain matchup issues for teams with its speed+priority as a catch-all, but Morpeko still feels like the more consistent threat. My personal experience with Liepard is a lot of missing out on significant KOs and issues with frailty and it only doing the most work when it flinches or crits something. Morpeko is consistently scary, but it saw a lot less usage and even when you do see it techs like Super Fang and Torment are less immediately impressive than Liepard's strong CB Knock Off. I think you could make a convincing argument for Liepard to A+ but above Morpeko would be pushing it for me. We'll see how poorly this ages though.

Forum Happenings:


For discussion points, obviously we'd like to see a lot more about the things we'll be voting on this Sunday. PU continues to have a really strong trend of people privately discussing how they feel on major VR/ban slate topics and then never bringing them back into the room/discord/anywhere where council might see and we're going to be working on incentivizing more public discussion pretty soon, but for now all I can do is ask for more opinions.
 
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