Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)

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EonX

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Ok, finally got around to playing a few matches last night because RU C&C has basically been my life for the past week. Shuckle is an annoying jerk, but you guys already knew that. Instead, I'm going to be talking about a playstyle that seems to be quite effective right now: VoltTurn

Now, VoltTurn teams were really good in BW due to a lack of Sticky Web. In Stage 1, they were next to useless since every other team on the ladder was Web Offense. However, now, they're totally amazing. Most teams are balance / stall teams looking to stick it to Web Offense teams. VoltTurn Spikes Offense is just killer right now. While these teams p. much require Rotom-C and Swellow / Braviary to function, this is a good core to build around in general since it's good agaisnt Web Offense and not helpless vs. Stall. Most teams lack good Flying resists since Hitmonlee is super common and scary af. And of those Flying resists, none of them handle Rotom-C well at all if it decides to use Will-O-Wisp (every non-Scarf set should) As with any balanced playstyle, it has issues. Trick Room destroys VoltTurn as these teams lack bulky pivots and generally can't prevent the likes of Reuniclus and Cofagrigus from getting TR up in the first place. Fire-types are also annoying as hell to face, in particular, Scarf Delphox. VoltTurn teams typically can't carry Fire resists, so they're at a quick disadvantage if Rocks can't be set up. Sharpedo and Speed Boost Yanmega can also be incredibly dangerous. While Sharpedo can be revenged by Hitmonlee (a good spinner for VoltTurn) Speed Boost Yanmega has next to no issues sweeping a VoltTurn team once the Rocks setter (typically Cobalion or Rhyperior) goes down or gets weakened enough.
Also, Toxic Spikes are pretty good right now considering the uptake in Stall teams. Get rid of the opposing Poison-types and Toxic Spikes become incredibly deadly and an easy way to wear down Stall teams. Just make sure you have a way to beat the Poison-types (Drapion, Roselia, Qwilfish) and Registeel, and you'll be in solid shape.
 

termi

formerly Robert Alfons
is a Tiering Contributor
Ok, finally got around to playing a few matches last night because RU C&C has basically been my life for the past week. Shuckle is an annoying jerk, but you guys already knew that. Instead, I'm going to be talking about a playstyle that seems to be quite effective right now: VoltTurn

Now, VoltTurn teams were really good in BW due to a lack of Sticky Web. In Stage 1, they were next to useless since every other team on the ladder was Web Offense. However, now, they're totally amazing. Most teams are balance / stall teams looking to stick it to Web Offense teams. VoltTurn Spikes Offense is just killer right now. While these teams p. much require Rotom-C and Swellow / Braviary to function, this is a good core to build around in general since it's good agaisnt Web Offense and not helpless vs. Stall. Most teams lack good Flying resists since Hitmonlee is super common and scary af. And of those Flying resists, none of them handle Rotom-C well at all if it decides to use Will-O-Wisp (every non-Scarf set should) As with any balanced playstyle, it has issues. Trick Room destroys VoltTurn as these teams lack bulky pivots and generally can't prevent the likes of Reuniclus and Cofagrigus from getting TR up in the first place. Fire-types are also annoying as hell to face, in particular, Scarf Delphox. VoltTurn teams typically can't carry Fire resists, so they're at a quick disadvantage if Rocks can't be set up. Sharpedo and Speed Boost Yanmega can also be incredibly dangerous. While Sharpedo can be revenged by Hitmonlee (a good spinner for VoltTurn) Speed Boost Yanmega has next to no issues sweeping a VoltTurn team once the Rocks setter (typically Cobalion or Rhyperior) goes down or gets weakened enough.
Also, Toxic Spikes are pretty good right now considering the uptake in Stall teams. Get rid of the opposing Poison-types and Toxic Spikes become incredibly deadly and an easy way to wear down Stall teams. Just make sure you have a way to beat the Poison-types (Drapion, Roselia, Qwilfish) and Registeel, and you'll be in solid shape.
By the sound of it, what you'd need is Zoroark. The set that fixes your issues:

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 Atk / 252 SAtk
Naive Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Night Daze
- Flamethrower/Grass Knot
- U-turn

Pretty standard Zoroark set, with U-Turn because you're using VoltTurn. Honestly, aside from the stall part this can do everything you want it to do ;o

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Night Daze vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 393-463 (92.6 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (if it doesn't straight up OHKO, you can kill it with Sucker Punch afterwards)
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Night Daze vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 330-390 (103.1 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Doesn't fix your issues with bulkier TR setters, but these aren't the best at keeping momentum up so just pressure the actual TR sweepers when they're trying to switch out into them.

4 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 133-157 (42.3 - 50%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

One round of LO recoil is enough to ensure a KO after rocks so that's cool

4 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 307-367 (105.1 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Doesn't deal with other fire types as well, but Moltres can be KOd with Night Daze after rocks and Emboar idk, haven't seen that a whole lot lately anyways. Seems like a pretty clutch mon to use on VoltTurn. Gets bonus points because Lee is cool on VoltTurn and Zoroark really likes dressing up as Lee.
 

aVocado

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Okay, I finally got reqs after a big tilt near the end (which explains the number of losses lol) and I feel like I have to post about my experience with the suspect ladder. To be honest I didn't really face all that much sticky web teams, and I didn't see a lot of stall, but I saw a lot of balance and offensive teams, which kind of went against my predictions of how the metagame will shape out to be. For 2/3 of my reqs, I used a team that I recently built to specifically counter Sticky Web teams and stall (the two teams I thought would run rampant on the ladder), consisting of SD Zoroark / SD Fletch / Scarf Rotom-C / CM Reun / AV Slowking / LO Lee. The combination of Scarf Rotom-C and Fletch/Zoro completely shits on sticky web teams, and whats lovely is Doublade doesn't stand a chance between being rekt by two tbolts from rotom-c (i used modest with scarf) or being burnt and weakened by Fletch and Zoro respectively, OR be weakened by a few Knock Offs from Lee for Fletch to burn and set-up on Doublade (i know this sounds silly, but it worked). It simply was too much for SW teams, and proved what many people said, which is Rotom-C and Fletch being the SW offense killers. For stall, I used SD Zoroark and CM Reuniclus, which kind of failed against Taunt Drapion, but otherwise it worked fine. It beat Molk's stall (Melo/Regi/Doublade/some other shit idk) and was pretty good vs. the playstyle in general, so I guess it did its job. What was also something I had in mind when making the team was there being a backup plan in case I can't spin away sticky web/SR, which was making a team thats not weak to those 2 hazards, and thats why I chose Modest Rotom-C, Fletchinder and SD Zoroark. The former two don't care about sticky web (although fletch takes a shitton from SR) while the latter can work around it with strong priority in Sucker Punch.

That was, as I said, for 2/3 of my reqs. For the last third, I used a team provided to me by galbia which was sticky web, and honestly it was the fucking most broken thing I've ever seen. You either run a team dedicated to counter Shuckle Offense or you're fucked. The only problems I had with it on the ladder were when facing a particular team which fucked me over hard, and that was Specs Jolteon + Rocky Helmet Xatu. It was truly made with the intention of countering shuckle, and it worked fucking brilliantly, stopped me from setting up multiple times, and the pressure Specs Jolteon brings is fucking huge. Kudos to whoever is "i come from leddit", who was the one using that team.

Moving on, my experience with the team was pretty fucking terrible. It was so fucking easy to just click Sticky Web then Stealth Rock, and depending on the situation either die or save Shuckle, go to any of the 5 wallbreakers I have and start wrecking shit. The only problems were Moltres and Rotom-C, the former can't kill Exploud unless its specs (which, btw, fucking rapes SW), and the latter suffers from the same. Exploud with Sticky Web was too fucking much, it wasn't cool clicking Boomburst and seeing well-built teams just crumble to its power, being faster than some Pokemon that are supposed to check it. Before using Shuckle Offense, I wanted Shuckle banned because it was overcentralizing and made the meta stale, but now I truly understand how fucking broken it is. It's cancerous for the metagame and needs to leave RU ASAP.

On a last note, I saw 0 Trick Room teams, which is kinda weird tbh.
 
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I'm sure. Shuckle has got a huge boost this generation with Sticky Web. He was just used in BW, because his ability/moves/item combo, respectively Sturdy, Encore/SR. Mental Herb was just in "old" BW. But in XY there isn't nothing to easier way to set Sticky Web and he might be able to stop a possible sweeper, too.
What is easier to build around Shuckle? Multiple slow wallbreakers like Exploud, Doublade, above all Clawitzer and so on.
Infestation and Knock Off are also good resources.
So, risk to engage a boring battle with similar team is quite probable, so sure of that! SR and Sticky Web are too much to not well-considered; as much as use Shuckle Offense until boring.

Furthemore, these are defoggers and spinner in hand respectively:
  • Braviary, Gligar, Golbat, Moltres, Skuntank, Yanmega
  • Claydol, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Kabutops
There's not a great selection, yanmega could be a decent answer but the problem is always the same. Too much wallbreakers and so quite difficult to defog/spin, unless you sacrifice your team largely. I think Shuckle is broken and playing RU with him not fun. Then he should be banned.
 
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RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341
So, I have this problem real here. I achieved 2400 COIL, but since I literally heard about the suspect test yesterday (I was really late ...) I was late to laddering, everybody was stronk in the top, especially when I kept getting them even when my coil was like 1000. So my point, I don't have a 3:1 ratio



So I want to ask you Molk if you can kindly remove the 3:1 ratio or at least make it a 2:1 ratio. I mean yes I can ladder but 11 wins (I have to have 54 wins for a 3:1 ratio) in a row is hard and long.

Having a 3:1 ratio is really hard to maintain because when you are at the top you are bound to get the top players [most of them use stall btw]. So in a hypothetical world, 10 people achieve 2400 COIL, they ladder and bump into each other and so only 4-6 players end up with reqs.

Anyways, I used 2 teams, this is one of them:

Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Encore
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Infestation

Exploud @ Choice Specs
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 236 Spd
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Surf
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast

Hitmonlee (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 212 Spd / 252 Atk / 40 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Rapid Spin
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off

Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 148 Spd / 252 SAtk / 104 HP / 4 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 SAtk / 30 SDef
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Giga Drain
- U-turn

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 244 HP / 12 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

Virizion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 44 Spd / 192 SAtk / 252 Atk
Lonely Nature
- Work Up
- Giga Drain
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt


Work Up Virizion lel, well it works against stall, +1 Zen Headbutt OHKOs SpD Amoonguss and 2HKO Def Amoonguss, Giga Drain at +1 2HKOs Gligar and OHKOs Alomomola, IIRC, it 2HKOs Doublade at +2, while CC hits Registeel without missing. Aromatisse is either 2HKOd w/ Zen Headbutt at +1 [if SpD] or Giga Drain at +1 [If Def]

EVs are max efficiency. Spe EVs reach 263 (for most of them) which outspeeds Jolteons at -1.

Yeah shuckle s good, not too good tbh, Kabutops, Xatu, Cobalion, Sharpedo leads usually have a favorable match up against me (flinch game w/ shark, kabu, and coba, while Xatu I can't set up on it) but yeah other than that it's pretty easy to set up 1 if not both hazards.

I do want to say, that shuckle's main niche over other sticky webbers is Encore. It's fucking amazing, it often let me set up Work Up or SD in their face and proceed to kill them.

I'm torn though, I think Shuckle is balanced, Sticky Web is just really good. I think I'm gonna vote for it to stay.

Also Shuckle HO can easily by stall as soon as you remove Clawitzer/Exploud. Which can easily be one by TS stall [best stall atm]

oh and specs modest tinted lens yanmega is awesome.

basically poops on all stall once registeel is down [or sometimes bronzong].

calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 174-204 (42.8 - 50.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 210-250 (62.8 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 218-258 (67.7 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drapion: 195-229 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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I'm laddering with a stall team and everytime I see Shuckle I laugh; everytime I see a Exploud I feel the urge to desperately cry. Shuckle is a bitch for non stall teams, I agree with that; now I'll also like to see people saying how much of a cancer Exploud for stall teams is. Some calc:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 229-271 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 202-238 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I might be forgetting any other special wall but I think those calcs are pretty significant. Could it be possible to look at Exploud after the Shuckle suspect?

(So close to 2400 Coil and now everyone using Exploud + Drapion + Braviary, no thanks :<)
 

Aerow

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Here are my thoughts on Shuckle:



A Pokemon that has always been relegated to the dark depths of NeverUsed, Shuckle now finds itself suspected for RU. With the introduction of XY, Shuckle got gifted with the move Sticky Web, meaning Shuckle is the only Pokemon with access to both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web outside of Smeargle, arguably making Shuckle the most effective hazard setter in the tier. This rare combination and solid base defenses are what make Shuckle so good, and have made a entirely new playstyle, Sticky Web offense.

In most cases, Shuckle can set up both Sticky Web and Stealth Rock, while possibly also Knocking Off an opponent's item. 230 Base Defense and Special Defense are, of course, very high, meaning Shuckle is able to easily afford to set up both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web up, because very few moves OHKO or even 2HKO Shuckle. Thanks to the combination of Sturdy + Mental Herb, Shuckle can set up at least one hazard against Taunt users. On top of that, it gets Encore to prevent itself from becoming set-up fodder.

It could be argued that Shuckle isn't a huge threat, because you can just use Defog and Rapid Spin users. The issue with that is that there are a limited number of Defog and Rapid Spin users in RU, and they can be dealt with fairly easy by using a Pokemon with the ability Defiant, like Braviary, and a spinblocker, like Doublade. Trick Room might sound like a good way to deal with Sticky Web offense, since it uses the Speed drop of Sticky Web to its own advantage. The problem with Trick Room is that it can only be taken advantage of for four turns each time; in addition, Trick Room is usually at a disadvantage against stall, and most Trick Room setters are weak to Knock Off (with Aromatisse being a notable exception), which is very common in RU now, meaning Trick Room teams will often be quite vulnerable to the move. Trick Room works decently against Sticky Web teams, but it often struggles against teams using a different playstyle unless the user is exceptionally competent and experienced with the playstyle.

Sticky Web Offense

Sticky Web Offense is a playstyle pretty much defined by Shuckle across most tiers. The reason this playstyle works especially well in RU is that there are a lot of only moderately fast wallbreakers in this tier, such as Hitmonlee, Exploud, Braviary, Zangoose and Moltres. Thanks to Sticky Web, these Pokemon are extremely threatening because Sticky Web essentially boosts their speed by 50 percent against the majority of opponents, meaning they will be much harder to revenge kill (especially with the lack of prominent priority users). These teams are very easy to build and use, but extremely hard to deal with unless you heavily prepare specifically for them.

Standard Shuckle


Shuckle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 132 SDef / 124 Spd
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Encore
- Knock Off

This is the standard Shuckle set. Mental Herb is used to deal with moves such as Taunt and Encore. Stealth Rock and Sticky Web are self explanatory. Encore is used to deal with Pokemon that try and set-up on Shuckle, and can also be used against Defog users, making it even easier for Shuckle to set up Sticky Web and Stealth Rock. Knock Off is used to remove items from the opponent, which is especially handy against Eviolite users such as Gligar and Golbat.

Is Shuckle broken?

Yes, Shuckle is broken, and should be banned. Sticky Web offense is a playstyle centred around Shuckle's phenomenal supportive capabilities; works extremely well, is hard to deal with, and is very overcentralizing. Shuckle itself is an amazing hazard setter that is almost guaranteed to set up Sticky Web.

Is Shuckle making RU less fun?

Yes. It makes the meta less diverse because Sticky Web, a restricted playstyle with a very rigid structure, is everywhere, is hard to deal with, and requires heavy preparation if you want to win against it, which might make handling other team archetypes more difficult.
 

pokeisfun

UU player and community member
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Stall is not necessarily immune to Shuckle teams because although Sticky Web has little to no effect on stall the partners Sticky Web comes with do have very high attacking power generally as somebody noted above Exploud, especially the rare Work Up variants, can do incredible amounts of damage to stall in short time even without Sticky Web. Other Pokemon such as Emboar and Braviary can work in a similar vein. Shuckle itself though is rather weak against stall generally being set up fodder for hazard users and only posing a minor annoyance with its own Stealth Rock (which should be expected anyways from every team) and Knock Offs and Toxics.
 
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trc

mellow
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more thoughts:

i kinda retract my earlier statement about sticky web not having trouble with stall, because after playing myself with sticky web vs stall i found it an impossible matchup. maybe this was the kind of mons i was running on my team but ill elaborate a bit. the stall i saw everywhere up on the higher ladder was alomomola / gligar / registeel / doublade / drapion / amoonguss. now im running standard sticky web but with clawitzer which i will talk about. the thing is with stall is that because each of my pokemon are walled by at least one of his/her pokemon, he/her can keep making systematic switches from a to b while end up just racking up lo recoil / hazard damage / tspikes damage. this is especially a problem with alomomola which can only be broken through in a 1v1 situation by two things on my team, magneton and clawitzer, but alomomola can protect to scout the choice-locked move of magneton and either stay in or go to gligar, while clawitzer ends up losing to a combination of lo recoil + potential poison damage from drapion's tspikes. i mean, you can definitely say that you can make smart double switches and force pressure on the opposing stall team to prevent them from at least setting up tspikes or w/e, but they can still switch into their dedicated pokemon for you anyway so the only way to win is generally through forcing damage onto alomomola so it switches out to regenerator and then doubling to something that threatens the switch-in, forcing back in alomomola until it's in ko range after even after one protect

one thing ive been really enjoying using is clawitzer. it's a great special threat with a lot of coverage which suffers from it's low speed, which is somewhat mitigated by sticky web. it has impressive coverage with water pulse / dark pulse / aura sphere / ice beam and its ability mega launcher gives the former three a power boost. water pulse also has a nifty confusion chance and dark pulse a flinch chance, which is really clutch especially in claw vs alomo matchups, flinching it before it can wish. aura sphere is also nice because you take on things like registeel better; it can't just hard wall you like with most special attackers. ice beam is also nice to hit amoonguss on the switch, whereas dark pulse hits doublade hard. speaking of which, clawitzer is a p nice answer to doublade as it switches in on iron head or sd and takes +2 sneak and koes with dark pulse. some people also run u-turn on clawitzer which i guess isn't bad but i prefer the extra coverage myself.
 

Senpai D.M

さようなら
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Shuckle needs to go as it over centralizes the meta, anyone can make a unstoppable team with a solid core doulblade braivary. No other playstyle is really viable.

P.s just keep reqs 2400 coil pls
 

aVocado

I mean, where the fuck should I really even start?
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I'm pretty sure I'm just repeating what I and others have said here but I'll answer the questions from the OP:

Is Shuckle too effective as a Sticky Web setter for the tier's own good?
Short answer: yes. Long answer: yes, because it can set up SR and SW without any drawbacks and effortlessly, and most importantly it can lay them constantly. Something no other SW user can do.

What are some effective ways to beat Sticky Web teams while still having a viable team otherwise?
I've found the best way is two things: using mostly Pokemon that can work around Sticky Web (see: rotom-c, Reuniclus, etc) or limiting Shuckle into one hazard with something like Iron Plate Cobalion (can go for iron head flinches and prevent both hazards, 2hkoing non-phys defensive in the process) or Clawitzer or something.


Would Sticky Web teams still be powerful without Shuckle to consistently set both Sticky Web and Stealth Rock? If so, would they be too powerful in your opinion?
That's something I'm not sure about. On one hand, Sticky Web is extremely powerful in RU and almost broken, but on the other hand, the SW users other than Shuckle don't set it up as reliably or consistently, so they're probably not going to be as hard to deal with. I guess we'll have to see when Shuckle is banned.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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One thing i have seen from other teams that does incredibly well against the sticky web core is Moltres and Rotom-mow (rotom-mow mentioned by Arikado above). Offensive Moltres totally destroys Doublade (even after +2 and rocks damage it is a very small chance to KO), and on top of that Moltres also gets access to Defog allowing it to get rid of rocks/web, and ofc roost to roost off any damage from rocks/LO. Next Scarfed Rotom-mow is a good revenge killer, due to the fact that it gets levitate and takes minimal damage from rocks. It also has volt-switch which allows teams to get good momentum going against a hyper offensive shuckle team, which in a lot of cases can be the deciding factor. And Rotom-mow gets trick allowing it to cripple walls such as Doublade. If you havent tried either of these out on a team i would reccommend doing so before the suspect is over and Shuckle gets the boot hopefully.
 

aVocado

I mean, where the fuck should I really even start?
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Yeah, Specs Moltres pretty much 6-0'd galbia's sticky web with Flamethrower alone lol, I forgot to mention that.
 
Got reqs. I had never actually used Web Offense until now, but boy is it something. The ease at which webs can go up is nearly as satisfying as clicking Boomburst and watching everything die. Sticky Web does a number to offensive teams, of course, but I think that its damage against stall is underrated.

Take something like Trick Room, for example. It has a great matchup against Sticky Web Offense as well as offense in general, but it'll be hard pressed to survive a stall matchup given all of the minus speed natures and the like preventing the wallbreakers from outspeeding the walls. It's a somewhat matchup-reliant strategy in that it fares very well against hyper offense and terribly against stall, with a sort of middle ground in between.

Sticky Web Offense is also a matchup-reliant playstyle. By that I mean that if the opposing team doesn't have Xatu or some combination of Jolteon, Moltres, Rotom-C, and Sigylph, then the Sticky Web team fares very well. Even then, these mons are all quite manageable by Sticky Web teams, with Xatu being the most difficult to crack without a Pursuit user. Given that Sticky Web Offense has a heavy reliance on the speed-lowering effects of Sticky Web, it seems as if Stall would be at a rather swell advantage, but in my opinion this is entirely false. The mons on Sticky Web teams are still running max speed and they all have wallbreaking potential, meaning that facing stall only alleviates the need for Sticky Web. Typical Sticky Web Offense mons outspeed and plow through walls on their own.

Exploud is likely the greatest offender of this. Registeel is literally the only thing that is somewhat comfortable switching into a Boomburst. I was under the impression that Wish support would alleviate its survivability issues. Nope. Registeel is forced to switch into Exploud. Exploud can nearly 1hko non-spdef Aromatisse, and it can 1hko Alomomola. As such, whenever Exploud is out, Registeel is practically required to come in or else the team will lose a valuable component. This, alongside the pressure created by literally every other member of a Sticky Web team, means that Registeel realistically will not survive. Registeel can even be a liability against Sub Bulk Up Braviary (which also ruins stall).

Exploud tangent aside, the fact that Sticky Web Offense decimates nearly every team archetype (yay Trick Room!) makes it undoubtedly broken.

It's really really fun to use Sticky Web though, so voting No Ban probably. If you can't beat Sticky Web, just use your own Sticky Web team so that it's fair. You'll thank me later because of how much fun you're having!
 
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Ok, finally got around to playing a few matches last night because RU C&C has basically been my life for the past week. Shuckle is an annoying jerk, but you guys already knew that. Instead, I'm going to be talking about a playstyle that seems to be quite effective right now: VoltTurn

Now, VoltTurn teams were really good in BW due to a lack of Sticky Web. In Stage 1, they were next to useless since every other team on the ladder was Web Offense. However, now, they're totally amazing. Most teams are balance / stall teams looking to stick it to Web Offense teams. VoltTurn Spikes Offense is just killer right now. While these teams p. much require Rotom-C and Swellow / Braviary to function, this is a good core to build around in general since it's good agaisnt Web Offense and not helpless vs. Stall. Most teams lack good Flying resists since Hitmonlee is super common and scary af. And of those Flying resists, none of them handle Rotom-C well at all if it decides to use Will-O-Wisp (every non-Scarf set should) As with any balanced playstyle, it has issues. Trick Room destroys VoltTurn as these teams lack bulky pivots and generally can't prevent the likes of Reuniclus and Cofagrigus from getting TR up in the first place. Fire-types are also annoying as hell to face, in particular, Scarf Delphox. VoltTurn teams typically can't carry Fire resists, so they're at a quick disadvantage if Rocks can't be set up. Sharpedo and Speed Boost Yanmega can also be incredibly dangerous. While Sharpedo can be revenged by Hitmonlee (a good spinner for VoltTurn) Speed Boost Yanmega has next to no issues sweeping a VoltTurn team once the Rocks setter (typically Cobalion or Rhyperior) goes down or gets weakened enough.
Also, Toxic Spikes are pretty good right now considering the uptake in Stall teams. Get rid of the opposing Poison-types and Toxic Spikes become incredibly deadly and an easy way to wear down Stall teams. Just make sure you have a way to beat the Poison-types (Drapion, Roselia, Qwilfish) and Registeel, and you'll be in solid shape.
Although I'm kind of theorymoning here, have you considered Eelektross? It is a bulkier Rotom with much better offensive coverage and a SLOW Volt Switch (or U-turn). Perhaps try

Eelektross (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpA
Nature: Quiet
-Volt Switch
-Drain Punch/Acid Spray
-Knock Off/Crunch
-Flamethrower/Giga Drain

This makes the most of what Eelektross has over Rotom-C: better bulk, lower speed, and coverage. Volt Switch is the STAB to pivot Eelektross out of say, Druddigon, into a partner that can handle it better. Drain Punch provides recovery and does a number on the many targets weak to it, i.e. Steel-types and Zoroark most notably. Alternatively, the [somewhat gimmicky] Acid Spray works fairly well with this set, especially with hazard support. Use Acid Spray on a target, which will be prompted to switch. As it switches, use Volt Switch to get a fairly powerful hit and then gain momentum very well, on top of possible hazard damage (twice as the next opponent will likely have to switch). I suggest Knock Off/Crunch because most Trick Room setters, including the two you mentioned, are weak to Dark-type moves. Knock Off provides more immediate power and removes items, but Crunch is an understandable alternative with more consistent power. Lastly, I suggest Flamethrower for Steel-types, but Giga Drain has its merit for defensive cores that rely on [physically defensive] Gastrodon. If you try it, let me know what you think.
 

RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341
I want to make a very important point here.

Gothorita



Gothorita @ Eviolite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Rest
- Toxic / Signal Beam / Taunt / Shadow Ball
Tbh, I don't even know why this thing is in RU, like look at it, go into something that has like pathetic SpA, set up on it, and kill stall, Alomomola for example, just go on it, set up calm minds, and when burn + Scald wear you down you just rest. Taunt if you want it to not Protect/Wish or Toxic if you want to wear it down [Taunt is better, because of sunfish has heal bell, you'd lose the pp stall between protect and heal bell and mind games] and then proceed to decimate stall.

Calcs:

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 96-113 (26.3 - 31%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

All you need is 1 layer of spikes and you can 4HKO Registeel

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 357-421 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Rocks and it's guaranteed to OHKO SpD Aroma

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 241-285 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

2HKO.

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 127-150 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 172-203 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again taint prevents from recovery or Toxic wears it down

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 226-267 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 340-400 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Same with Gligar. Signal Beam 2HKOs too.

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 204-242 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 218-258 (49 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Cresselia isn't too common, but you'd lose if you have only Psyshock

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes even that.

Against HO:

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 424-500 (131.6 - 155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 4HKO

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Exploud: 397-468 (96.3 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 58-69 (17.9 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 309-364 (98.4 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 78-94 (24 - 29%) -- 92.8% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 174-205 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 228-270 (94.2 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

^ you don't even need to set up.



Now you might ask why it has +6 SpA +6 SpD. Easy because Gothorita's bulk combined with Shadow Tag and the SpD boost from Calm Mind makes it soooo easy to set up, it has way too many pokemons to set up on.

Alomomola, Shuckle, Gligar, Registeel, Aromatisse, Cresselia (w/o CM), Weezing, Special Virizion, Mega Abomasnow (yup), Eelektross, Hitmontop, Reuniclus, Non-Specs Moltres, Non-CM Meloetta, Rotom-C, Slowking, Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Claydol

Those are the pokemons that I only recall from my head ._.


So I don't know what this thing is doing here when It's so anti-meta.

IMO needs to be looked into and hopefully suspected next.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I want to make a very important point here.

Gothorita



Gothorita @ Eviolite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Rest
- Toxic / Signal Beam / Taunt / Shadow Ball
Tbh, I don't even know why this thing is in RU, like look at it, go into something that has like pathetic SpA, set up on it, and kill stall, Alomomola for example, just go on it, set up calm minds, and when burn + Scald wear you down you just rest. Taunt if you want it to not Protect/Wish or Toxic if you want to wear it down [Taunt is better, because of sunfish has heal bell, you'd lose the pp stall between protect and heal bell and mind games] and then proceed to decimate stall.

Calcs:

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 96-113 (26.3 - 31%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

All you need is 1 layer of spikes and you can 4HKO Registeel

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 357-421 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Rocks and it's guaranteed to OHKO SpD Aroma

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 241-285 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

2HKO.

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 127-150 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 172-203 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again taint prevents from recovery or Toxic wears it down

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 226-267 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 340-400 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Same with Gligar. Signal Beam 2HKOs too.

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 204-242 (45.9 - 54.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 218-258 (49 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Cresselia isn't too common, but you'd lose if you have only Psyshock

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes even that.

Against HO:

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 424-500 (131.6 - 155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 4HKO

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Exploud: 397-468 (96.3 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 58-69 (17.9 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO

+6 4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 309-364 (98.4 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 78-94 (24 - 29%) -- 92.8% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 174-205 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 228-270 (94.2 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

^ you don't even need to set up.



Now you might ask why it has +6 SpA +6 SpD. Easy because Gothorita's bulk combined with Shadow Tag and the SpD boost from Calm Mind makes it soooo easy to set up, it has way too many pokemons to set up on.

Alomomola, Shuckle, Gligar, Registeel, Aromatisse, Cresselia (w/o CM), Weezing, Special Virizion, Mega Abomasnow (yup), Eelektross, Hitmontop, Reuniclus, Non-Specs Moltres, Non-CM Meloetta, Rotom-C, Slowking, Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Claydol

Those are the pokemons that I only recall from my head ._.


So I don't know what this thing is doing here when It's so anti-meta.

IMO needs to be looked into and hopefully suspected next.
It looks like UU is already on this.

TBH, while Gothorita is capable of demolishing stall teams, it really struggles to do anything at all against offensive teams, especially those with a dark type, as most can outspeed and OHKO. One could argue that a pokemon like this is unhealthy for the metagame, but I'm not sure that I really agree with that, as frankly with good pressure and smart switching even defensive teams can deal with Gothorita, so I'm not sure I agree with a suspect test of goth. Also note that it can't set up on Shuckle because of encore, and some of those Pokemon, such as Gligar, Eelektross, and some Moltres can escape with U-turn / Volt Switch. While you can set up on some defensive variants of Abomasnow-Mega, you can't really set up on offensive versions.
 

Bagon

Banned deucer.
So I just got reqs, and I used a shuckle team the whole time. This thing was amazing by itself, along with setup sweepers and wallbreakers. You can always get up webs, rocks, and sometimes more. Lead with Shuckle, and depending on the opposing lead, I would either infestation or sticky web. Drapion was my main pokemon this run, as it has a great typing, great speed, and decent bulk. It has plenty of opportunities to set up, and often sweeps. Shuckle works well as you can infestation, encore a toxic, setup move, hazard, or something very ineffective. Once I set up all the hazards with shuckle, I switch in Drapion to take nothing from the encored pokemon, and proceed to set up swords dance.

At +2, Knock Off hits most of the tier very hard, and KOs it. The only things it doesnt hit hard enough are fighting types, fairies, and opposing dark types. However, with coverage in poison jab and earthquake, Drapion can KO things such as Rhyperior, Registeel, Fighting and Dark types, and Aromatisse. This thing has amazing speed, and absolutely demolishes opposing shuckle teams. It can easily set up on shuckle, as they usually dont encore first turn predicting swords dance. Then you use Knock off as they proceed to encore, and most of the time you can sweep easily.

Other threats include specs exploud and banded braviary, which pretty much beat everything or hit extremely hard.
Despite not playing RU that much, with this amazing team I still managed to get the 3:1 ratio.

Either way, Shuckle is an amazing hazard setter with its bulk, and most of the time allows its teammates to cleanly pick off opponents pokemon one by one. With the ability to set webs and allow its teammates to wallbreak so easily, shuckle is seriously amazing, encourages lazy teambuilding, and needs to go.

RIP Shuckle ;_;7
 
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RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341
It looks like UU is already on this.

TBH, while Gothorita is capable of demolishing stall teams, it really struggles to do anything at all against offensive teams, especially those with a dark type, as most can outspeed and OHKO. One could argue that a pokemon like this is unhealthy for the metagame, but I'm not sure that I really agree with that, as frankly with good pressure and smart switching even defensive teams can deal with Gothorita, so I'm not sure I agree with a suspect test of goth. Also note that it can't set up on Shuckle because of encore, and some of those Pokemon, such as Gligar, Eelektross, and some Moltres can escape with U-turn / Volt Switch. While you can set up on some defensive variants of Abomasnow-Mega, you can't really set up on offensive versions.
Yeah saw that after this post. But tbh, Competitive Specs Gothorita w/ Trick also fucks up stall and Balanced or even HO but I never tried it or faced it, it looks on paper though.

Also no, Gothorita can definitely set up on Shuckle, Tehy and I had a battle and he just threw gothorita and started setting up on me. I encored him to Rest and Calm Mind while spamming Infestation but it wasn't enough, because Infestation takes maximum 5 turns (min 4 turns) while Encore takes 4 turns IIRC and so at the end he beat my shuckle and ended up with a +6/+6 Gothorita.

Gligar can definitely U-turn out but not many carry it, though you have a point on Elektross and Moltres.

Also it can set up on every variant of Mega Aboma except Physical Aboma w/ Wood Hammer. (Quiet Blizzard needs double max rolls to kill, because Gothorita is faster even before Mega Evolving and can CM on it)
 

WhiteQueen

i’m the prettiest
is a Tiering Contributorwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
I have very mixed feelings about Shuckle. When you use stall, the sight of it is amusing because it's like having a 6-5 advantage by default. Defensive teams are slow, in general, so having Sticky Web won't really have any major effect on them.

On the other hand, Shuckle is a massive bitch when you're using an offensive team. Offensive Pokemon are typically fast, so Sticky Web completely ruins them. Not only does Mental Herb keep Shuckle from being taunted, it's bulk and ability, Sturdy, make it impossible to OHKO Shuckle.

It's an annoying Pokemon to face, but as far as I can tell it's not broken. Trick Room teams are not uncommon either, so Sticky Web only benefits that play style.
 

aVocado

I mean, where the fuck should I really even start?
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I have very mixed feelings about Shuckle. When you use stall, the sight of it is amusing because it's like having a 6-5 advantage by default. Defensive teams are slow, in general, so having Sticky Web won't really have any major effect on them.

On the other hand, Shuckle is a massive bitch when you're using an offensive team. Offensive Pokemon are typically fast, so Sticky Web completely ruins them. Not only does Mental Herb keep Shuckle from being taunted, it's bulk and ability, Sturdy, make it impossible to OHKO Shuckle.

It's an annoying Pokemon to face, but as far as I can tell it's not broken. Trick Room teams are not uncommon either, so Sticky Web only benefits that play style.
TR teams are pretty uncommon actually, judging from my experience in the suspect ladder. I didn't face a single one. And good Shuckle Offense teams shouldn't really suffer against stall since they're basically Shuckle and 5 wallbreakers lol.
 
I have very mixed feelings about Shuckle. When you use stall, the sight of it is amusing because it's like having a 6-5 advantage by default. Defensive teams are slow, in general, so having Sticky Web won't really have any major effect on them.

On the other hand, Shuckle is a massive bitch when you're using an offensive team. Offensive Pokemon are typically fast, so Sticky Web completely ruins them. Not only does Mental Herb keep Shuckle from being taunted, it's bulk and ability, Sturdy, make it impossible to OHKO Shuckle.

It's an annoying Pokemon to face, but as far as I can tell it's not broken. Trick Room teams are not uncommon either, so Sticky Web only benefits that play style.
Just because Sticky Web isn't as useful against stall doesn't mean that stall has an advantage. It means that the sticky web team has to put in even less work to win. Sticky web is literally shuckle and 5 wallbreakers, but if you can find a stall team that can tank all of Hitmonlee, Magneton, Exploud, Zangoose, and the like, as well as deal wtih stallbreakers like sub bulk up braviary and cm meloetta, then all power to you. But in my experience actually playing, Web offense has very little problem against a typical stall team.

In fact, it is the offensive teams with a means by which to evade sticky web (xatu, flying types, magic coat) that are most troublesome as web teams can't take hits.

And there's like two trick room teams in the entire ru playerbase, and I stopped using mine in favor of web offense so... And while this may be a bit of an exaggeration, it's not too far off and insinuating that trick room is anything but practically the rarest playstyle in almost any tier is ridiculous.
 
While I have had no problem making reqs with the 3:1 ratio, I strongly disagree with it. It makes the assumption that the 98 people who qualified for the Froslass vote is too many, this suggests that there is either an ideal number of voters or that the requirements are too easy to achieve. If the requirements are adequately difficult enough to achieve that the desired level of skill and knowledge is required, surely a larger sample would be better to get the most accurate reflection of the opinions of the players? So then the requirements are too easy. Imposing a win/loss ratio rather than simply raising the required COIL makes it harder for good players to make reqs, this can be to the point that it would be easier to make a new alt and start again, particularly if you get on a tilt. Raising the COIL to even 2450 makes it much harder for players with GXEs less than 70 to make reqs. However, with how uncontroversial this vote is I think a better solution right now would be to remove the ratio, and to have a higher required COIL for future suspect tests.
 
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