As of now it is still a requirement, it has been brought in to question not revoked.OP said:
Molk EDIT: it has been removed
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Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)
- Thread starter Molk
- Start date
- Status
Molk EDIT: it has been removed
[18:41:32] %pkblizzard: no Arikado
[18:41:40] %pkblizzard: molk confirmed that 3:1 ratio is dead
Idk man, I guess we'll have to hear from the man himself.
Molk EDIT: it has been removed from the op lol
I've been playing around a bit on the ladder, and have come up with a core that is brutally dangerous.
Togetic @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 40 SAtk / 168 Def / 52 SDef
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Roost
- Fire Blast
Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 16 Def / 252 Spd / 240 SAtk
Modest Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball / HP Ground
- Protect
The premise is pretty simple to be honest: Togetic passes a Nasty Plot boost to Yanmega, who then OHKOs everything. It's that simple. literally the only mons that avoid the OHKO from +2 Yanamega are Aromatisse, Registeel, Escavalier and Dragalge. Togetic uses Fire Blast to be able to weaken certain bothersome Pokemon for the Pokemon you want to pass to (other recipients I have/had on the team are Magneton/Jolteon, as they don't care about Fletchinder) Delphox, specially based Sharpedo. The latter is also just as much of a monster as Yanmega lol, but has to be more wary with priority. The beauty of Togetic is that it has such a slow Baton Pass, and the things that you want it to outspeed and weaken (AV Escavalier and Doublade) are outsped and OHKOd by Fire Blast anyway (that's what the SAtk EVs are for). The SDef EVs allow it to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Delphox's Fire Blast, and the rest are just bumped into Defense to take advantage of that gorgeous typing. This pretty massive bulk allow it to get a Baton Pass off against even super effective attacks, giving my cleaner a free switch in, and it can then easily sweep teams. Basically, just pass to whatever recipient cleans up the opposing team easiest (mostly Yanmega). The choice of non STAB move on Yanmega depends on whether you want to KO Bronzong, or put a bigger dent in Dragalge and Registeel (I prefer Shadow Ball because I also run Dugtrio). Both OHKO Doublade. Jolteon as a team member also can lure in things for Togetic to set up on, as it's much better to get Togetic in for free than bringing it in on an attack, as it needs all the bulk it can get. Hazard removal support is also obviously pretty vital. All in all it's pretty scary how many teams this can just steamroll, and it doesn't have to be lategame either. The fact that Yanmega doesn't give a crap about Sticky Web or Spikes either is just icing on top.
Togetic @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 40 SAtk / 168 Def / 52 SDef
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Roost
- Fire Blast
Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 16 Def / 252 Spd / 240 SAtk
Modest Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball / HP Ground
- Protect
The premise is pretty simple to be honest: Togetic passes a Nasty Plot boost to Yanmega, who then OHKOs everything. It's that simple. literally the only mons that avoid the OHKO from +2 Yanamega are Aromatisse, Registeel, Escavalier and Dragalge. Togetic uses Fire Blast to be able to weaken certain bothersome Pokemon for the Pokemon you want to pass to (other recipients I have/had on the team are Magneton/Jolteon, as they don't care about Fletchinder) Delphox, specially based Sharpedo. The latter is also just as much of a monster as Yanmega lol, but has to be more wary with priority. The beauty of Togetic is that it has such a slow Baton Pass, and the things that you want it to outspeed and weaken (AV Escavalier and Doublade) are outsped and OHKOd by Fire Blast anyway (that's what the SAtk EVs are for). The SDef EVs allow it to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Delphox's Fire Blast, and the rest are just bumped into Defense to take advantage of that gorgeous typing. This pretty massive bulk allow it to get a Baton Pass off against even super effective attacks, giving my cleaner a free switch in, and it can then easily sweep teams. Basically, just pass to whatever recipient cleans up the opposing team easiest (mostly Yanmega). The choice of non STAB move on Yanmega depends on whether you want to KO Bronzong, or put a bigger dent in Dragalge and Registeel (I prefer Shadow Ball because I also run Dugtrio). Both OHKO Doublade. Jolteon as a team member also can lure in things for Togetic to set up on, as it's much better to get Togetic in for free than bringing it in on an attack, as it needs all the bulk it can get. Hazard removal support is also obviously pretty vital. All in all it's pretty scary how many teams this can just steamroll, and it doesn't have to be lategame either. The fact that Yanmega doesn't give a crap about Sticky Web or Spikes either is just icing on top.
Got reqs and after laddering for 4-5 days I can say that Shuckle ruin too much this tier. His bulkiness in combo with Mental Herb (and sturdy in case the oppo crits) make it a great support for offense team, creating a sort of Deo-Sharp in RU tier. He perfectily helps slower wallbreakers (Exploud and Clawitzer over all) setting up both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web, and this is the reason that makes it a big ass in this tier; Doublade and Braviary make the rest, the first preventing the spin of the hazards, the second spamming his stab after entering on each existing defogger. No offensive playstyle except itself can beat it, few flying type such as Braviary and Yanmega or some levitate pokemon (Rotom primarily) may cause some problem, nothing else. Only thing that can stop this shit is Hax, Iron Head Cobalion/Waterfall Sharpeedo or Water Pulse Clawitzer may flinch/confuse Shuckle and prevent him from setting up, but i don t want a tier based on luck.
Even if I am new in this tier, I think I played enough to say that Shuckle is broken as hell and needs the Ban.
Even if I am new in this tier, I think I played enough to say that Shuckle is broken as hell and needs the Ban.
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Throughout this thread, I have seen no arguments that support an outright and complete ban of Shuckle. It seems to be the consensus of the community that Shuckle makes Sticky Web offense broken and should be banned for that reason, but every argument for banning Shuckle in this thread would be covered by a less restrictive Shuckle + Sticky Web ban. There are viable and useful sets for Shuckle that do not run Sticky Web (I have been running one myself for several months), and I see no reason to completely ban out Shuckle simply because of one broken set.
Will there be some sort of middle ground voting option? (Eg Shuckle + Web ban) If not, why not?
Will there be some sort of middle ground voting option? (Eg Shuckle + Web ban) If not, why not?
While at first this seems like a nice thought, this just really isn't a good idea. Smogon's philosophy has always been make the ban as simple as possible, except in very extreme situations. For example, by this logic, we shouldn't have banned Froslass, we should have banned Froslass + Spikes, because that is ultimately what broke Froslass. Now if tiering worked this way, imagine how complex tiers would be, Froslass is NU, but it can't use Spikes in RU or NU, and Blaze Blaziken is RU while Speed Boost is Ubers, etc. There is also the fact that it could get really weird like Kyogre isn't broken in OU if it can't use any special attacks, and so on, it just isn't really worth the extra effort, especially since for a Pokemon like Shuckle, it would never be used in either RU or NU without Sticky Web (it really just isn't viable, lol). There is also the fact that Shuckle is broken with webs (if you believe the arguments), key words Shuckle is broken, and therefore Shuckle should be banned.
I've been playing around a bit on the ladder, and have come up with a core that is brutally dangerous.
Togetic @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 40 SAtk / 168 Def / 52 SDef
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Roost
- Fire Blast
Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 16 Def / 252 Spd / 240 SAtk
Modest Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball / HP Ground
- Protect
The premise is pretty simple to be honest: Togetic passes a Nasty Plot boost to Yanmega, who then OHKOs everything. It's that simple. literally the only mons that avoid the OHKO from +2 Yanamega are Aromatisse, Registeel, Escavalier and Dragalge. Togetic uses Fire Blast to be able to weaken certain bothersome Pokemon for the Pokemon you want to pass to (other recipients I have/had on the team are Magneton/Jolteon, as they don't care about Fletchinder) Delphox, specially based Sharpedo. The latter is also just as much of a monster as Yanmega lol, but has to be more wary with priority. The beauty of Togetic is that it has such a slow Baton Pass, and the things that you want it to outspeed and weaken (AV Escavalier and Doublade) are outsped and OHKOd by Fire Blast anyway (that's what the SAtk EVs are for). The SDef EVs allow it to avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Delphox's Fire Blast, and the rest are just bumped into Defense to take advantage of that gorgeous typing. This pretty massive bulk allow it to get a Baton Pass off against even super effective attacks, giving my cleaner a free switch in, and it can then easily sweep teams. Basically, just pass to whatever recipient cleans up the opposing team easiest (mostly Yanmega). The choice of non STAB move on Yanmega depends on whether you want to KO Bronzong, or put a bigger dent in Dragalge and Registeel (I prefer Shadow Ball because I also run Dugtrio). Both OHKO Doublade. Jolteon as a team member also can lure in things for Togetic to set up on, as it's much better to get Togetic in for free than bringing it in on an attack, as it needs all the bulk it can get. Hazard removal support is also obviously pretty vital. All in all it's pretty scary how many teams this can just steamroll, and it doesn't have to be lategame either. The fact that Yanmega doesn't give a crap about Sticky Web or Spikes either is just icing on top.
Fuck, I have been using the same core except that:
Togetic @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Roost
- Dazzling Gleam
Fucking amazing bulk, takes 2 Iron Heads (IIRC) from Doublade, NPs, and Baton Pass to Yanmega / Exploud. Dazzling gleam because I have been in situations that I need Togetic to kill a Braviary or something. Best part: Slow Baton Pass = Amazing pivot.
+
Yanmega @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 8 Def / 248 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball / Giga Drain
- Protect
Unlike Cherub Agent , I run 248 HP instead of 252 Spe, mainly because 248 HP / 8 Def sponges priority like it's not even funny, and also because I'm using Sticky Web. I'm always torn between Shadow Ball and Giga Drain, because Shadow Ball gets Doublade while Giga Drain gets SpD Rhyperior which takes a +2 Bug Buzz. I'm using Leftovers and that's why. Since I use Hitmonlee Registeel isn't usually a problem.
OR
Exploud @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 236 Spd
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Work Up
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
252 SpA and Modest for max power, 236 Allow me to outspeed Jolteon at -1, 16 HP for leftovers number and the rest are in SDef. Work Up allow me to set up on Aromatisse and Registeel who use Protect a LOT to avoid a 2HKO. Especially Registeel, also because Exploud forces a lot of switches. +1 Fire Blast 2HKOs Registeel (Assuming it didn't Protect) or Focus Blast just outright 2HKOs even if it protects for Leftovers.
On my other team I have been passing NPs to Air Balloon Magneton and CM Leftovers Delphox.
This strategy is god. I literally peaked 4 on the ladder with only 4 losses [after implementing this strategy] and one of them being to Scarf Drapion
As I outlined in my first post on this thread (quoted above), there is an important distinction to be made between Shuckle and Froslass. Froslass had one standard set with no variation other than to counter other Froslass (I did hear about a mental herb shadow ball Froslass once, lol). Taking away any element of this set made Froslass completely unviable, so an outright ban was practically the same thing. On the other hand, Shuckle does have a small niche even when elements of its most common set are removed. The fact that I have used a Shuckle without webs for several months, and have been near the top of the ladder for most of this time, is proof that Shuckle can find other niches, so saying it would never be used is not a solid argument.
That said, I do acknowledge that one guy using an oddball set is hardly an exceptional circumstance, so I can understand the logistical reasons behind an outright ban. As such, all I can really do is vote against it, and eagerly await a Sticky Web suspect to bring back my beloved Shuckle.
I can use Kyogre without special attacks
Kyogre for OU
and molk was first at some point with a silly scarf jellicent and pawniard team, making the bold invalid
If it wins a substantial number of battles, it's viable by definition. I'm guessing that team was viable due to countering the meta of the day.
No, it was literally a joke team. The entire point was for the Pokemon not to be viable. The point is that the ladder quality is so low that the fact that your set did well is meaningless. Also, your main argument to why Shuckle shouldn't be banned is horribly flawed beyond belief and can be applied to literally every Pokemon that has ever been banned from any tier. Would RU be an enjoyable tier if the council all voted not to ban Azelf because they were all having fun with the completely balanced Trick Room set? No, it wouldn't. Every single Pokemon has bad sets. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the good sets are broken, and I honestly have no idea why you or anyone else would possibly think that it did.
Invisi, Let's look objectively at the set you were using. Was it usable? Yes. But was it optimal? Probably not. Yes, it has a small niche being every fanboy's favorite Pokemon in the tier to abuse but other than that there's no reason to not use something better like Registeel, who can basically do everything that a defensive Shuckle can except better. Gligar can do it pretty well too. Yeah, maybe we're taking away a small bit of tier diversity by banning Shuckle, but why should you care when it's not relevant to metagame outside of Sticky Web? The bottom line is, the only set that Shuckle should be judged for is its Sticky Web set because it's the only set Shuckle can run that fits the FULL definition of viable - not just that it's usable, but also that it's worth using over Pokemon who can accomplish similar roles.
If I google "viable," the first dictionary definition I get is "capable of working successfully; feasible." If a team wins games on the ladder, then it is viable for use on the ladder, by definition. If you feel the ladder is of a low quality (what exactly do you have to compare to, by the way?), then this is a separate argument.
Furthermore, you misunderstand me; I am not arguing that Shuckle ought not to be banned. I am saying that as RU would be a more enjoyable tier for me should be ban not go through, I personally am going to vote against it as a way of voicing that opinion. Also, you mentioned the Azelf ban, but this is a slightly different note. When the council votes on a quickban, they have a responsibility to represent the voice and best interests of the community, rather than their own interests. As a suspect voter, my responsibility is to represent my own voice, not that of the wider community. It is the democratic voting process which collates individual opinions into a community-wide opinion.
I'm honestly really conflicted as to whether Shuckle needs a ban at all. While it seems so far that most voters will be choosing to ban it, I don't think shuckle has quite a detrimental effect on the tier as froslass did (see: froslass vs. stall teams). I used to think shuckle really shut down offensive teams with Sticky Web, but there are plenty of great offensive pokemon that not only care little about it, but also threaten the hyperoffensive SW team structures significantly: in this round alone I've seen rotom-c, mismagius, fletchinder, vivillion, yanmega and otr reuniclus.
And even paired with heavy wallbreakers, shuckle is useless versus stall. Shuckle's poor offensive pressure lets hazards get up on both sides easily, and due to the need for constant momentum, SW teams never have any spinners/defoggers sans lee (who takes a lot from doublade even with perfect prediction). I can't really say anything about Trick Room teams as I haven't seen them, but I imagine they'd crush SW as well.
To clarify, I'm not saying shuckle is weak, as it's easily a top 10 pokemon. I simply don't think its inclusion in the tier is either detrimental to the metagame nor do I think shuckle is banworthy even by the Support characteristic, especially when compared to froslass last round.
And even paired with heavy wallbreakers, shuckle is useless versus stall. Shuckle's poor offensive pressure lets hazards get up on both sides easily, and due to the need for constant momentum, SW teams never have any spinners/defoggers sans lee (who takes a lot from doublade even with perfect prediction). I can't really say anything about Trick Room teams as I haven't seen them, but I imagine they'd crush SW as well.
To clarify, I'm not saying shuckle is weak, as it's easily a top 10 pokemon. I simply don't think its inclusion in the tier is either detrimental to the metagame nor do I think shuckle is banworthy even by the Support characteristic, especially when compared to froslass last round.
Funnily enough, I do actually believe that Shuckle is the optimal choice for my team. Its main job is to be a general nuisance. It knocks off items, applies toxic, and provides Stealth Rock support, all while tanking hits very well with a typing which complements my team decently. While each individual task Shuckle performs can be done just as well, if not better, by another Pokemon, the fact that it does so many things adequately for my team is what makes it ideal. See, the archetype of my team is what I call "Balanced Stall". It's a functioning stall team that uses only 4 Pokemon. Each Pokemon may not necessarily be optimal at everything, but they are all versatile enough to check a variety of threats. This frees up two party slots for hard hitting choice users to create and capitalise on pressure.
You ask why should I care, and I think the answer is obvious; because it affects me and the team I love using. As for judging Shuckle based on his Sticky Web set alone, the following is a bit of a restatement of my reply to Magnemite above. If I were on the council voting on a quickban, I would judge Shuckle based on its use in the overall metagame, which means looking primarily at the Sticky Web set (and hence probably abstain; I'm still not entirely convinced that web is as broken as it's made out to be). However, as a suspect voter, my responsibility is to reflect my experiences and opinions on Shuckle, whatever they may be.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
No. Your responsibility is not to reflect "whatever experiences" and opinions that you choose to. It is to objectively determine if a pokemon is either outright broken or sufficiently unhealthy for the metagame. That is it. "I like using it" or "it fits well on my team" are completely irrelevant to the suspect process, and the fact that you are insinuating otherwise suggests that you may not be qualified to vote, whether you attain reqs or not.
I wasn't able to battle in like a week and when I saw that Shuckle was being suspect tested I laddered. First I used the same SW team that I used with the Froslass suspect and I got a lot of easy and fast wins as most battles rarely last more than 20 turns. Then I tried to ladder with a stall team and battles took a lot of more time (around 40 turns) which is natural since stall takes a lot of more time than HO. But SW isn't like the regular HO, why? Because using Shuckle in RU is like using Deoxys-D in OU, little to no risk and an enormous reward. If your opponent doesn't have a defogger or spinner the match is yours 99% as soon as you set up your hazards (unless your opponent is using full stall or TR) and with Shuckle's titanic defenses and mental herb, its almost impossible to prevent them.
A lot of people in the RU chatroom in PS say that you can always defog or spin the hazards when Shuckle dies which is easy to say but difficult to achieve, lets look at the main spinners and defoggers for a sec:
Spinners:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 133-156 (41.3 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Doublade: 121-144 (37.5 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
VS:
252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 184-218 (70.2 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 123-145 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
In conclusion, Kabutops can't spin unless Doublade is almost dead and even if it dies, surprise! Your opponent has another 4 wallbreakers and you are a -1 speed and with LO recoil, so good luck trying to spin with Zangoose using close combat and Hitmonlee kicking your rocky nuts.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 280-330 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 262-310 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 227-269 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This calcs show that if Gligar wants to defog, he needs to be healthy, with Eviolite and that he will die in the process. In other words, you just lost your main physical wall to get rid of a two turn set up hazards and if Shuckle is still alive watch out because it will try to set them up again. So I ask you, losing your main physical wall just to get rid of webs and rocks broken or not?
Conclusion: Like I said, getting rid of SW and SR is almost impossible as the offensive pressure is enormous and the options are limited, sure you can use Xatu and CB Rhyperior to prevent Shuckle's hazards but you can't slap those on every team. Like I said and showed Shuckle's hazards are almost impossible to prevent and to spin/defog leading to a metagame were TR and full Stall are the only choices to ladder and where HO without Shuckle is impossible. It was a shame that I couldn't participate in the suspect discussion more but I hope this words reflect my point of view about Shuckle.
A lot of people in the RU chatroom in PS say that you can always defog or spin the hazards when Shuckle dies which is easy to say but difficult to achieve, lets look at the main spinners and defoggers for a sec:
Spinners:
- Kabutops
: Kabutops can do little to no damage to SW teams once SW is already on the field. With a bad defensive typing and a mediocre 85 speed Kabutops rarely finds an opportunity to spin and when it does you can send your
doubladespinblocker to prevent the obvious spin. And Kabutops can't do much to most spinblockers especially Doublade who is the best spinblocker in SW teams. Here are the calcs covering Kabutops best options against doublade:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 133-156 (41.3 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Doublade: 121-144 (37.5 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
VS:
252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 184-218 (70.2 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 123-145 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
In conclusion, Kabutops can't spin unless Doublade is almost dead and even if it dies, surprise! Your opponent has another 4 wallbreakers and you are a -1 speed and with LO recoil, so good luck trying to spin with Zangoose using close combat and Hitmonlee kicking your rocky nuts.
- Hitmonlee
: Hitmonlee shares a lot of problems with Kabutops, he is frail and at -1 speed you can't live enough to guarantee a spin. At least Hitmonlee has two advantages, he can damage
Doubladespinblocker thanks to a stronger knock off and he has stronger STAB attacks. Even with this advantages, Hitmonlee has to play perfectly in order to kill the spinblocker and spin which is something not a lot of players can do especially with High Jump Kick 10% chance to miss. Also Hitmonlee is weak to flying type attacks which means that Yanmega and Braviary will ruin its day and prevent the spin. In conclusion, only a top player can spin with Hitmonlee and he/she will suffer a lot of damage in the process and intense mindgames on both sides.
- Hitmontop
: At first Hitmontop looks like a poor choice for a spinner: slow, no recovery and weak to common attacking types in RU like Flying and Psychic. But Hitmontop has two tools that Kabutops nor Hitmonlee have: Foresight and Intimidate. With Intimidate Top has a better chance to take hits from physical monsters like Zangoose and Hitmonlee and with Foresight Hitmontop can spin even on ghost types. But of course, Hitmontop still has problems and using foresight causes 4MSS making a reliable but sometimes useless choice against SW teams.
- Gligar
: Gligar A.K.A cliche way to get rid of hazards is usually a decent choice to get rid of pesky SW. Having a decent speed and a great bulk makes Gligar a formidable opponent to SW teams until you realize that he is destroyed by most SW abusers such as Exploud, Yanmega and Braviary (at +2) which means that Gligar will usually need to sacrifice itself to defog as shown in this calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 280-330 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 262-310 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 227-269 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This calcs show that if Gligar wants to defog, he needs to be healthy, with Eviolite and that he will die in the process. In other words, you just lost your main physical wall to get rid of a two turn set up hazards and if Shuckle is still alive watch out because it will try to set them up again. So I ask you, losing your main physical wall just to get rid of webs and rocks broken or not?
- Golbat
: I haven't see a lot of Golbats while laddering so correct me if I am wrong, Golbat shares similar pros and cons with Gligar, fast, bulky and annoying Golbat can defog to get rid of pesky SW and rocks while walling the likes of Yanmega and Hitmonlee but unlike Gligar it is weak to rocks. In other words, you are entering the battlefiel with 75% of your HP which can result in crucial kills making Golbat's task difficult.
- Other weird defoggers
: Sometimes a good amount of players use things like defog Braviary or defog Togetic, while they aren't bad and their element of surprise screws you more than once it shows that the tier lacks good defoggers and people are forced to use things like Braviary and Togetic simply to defog while other pokemon such as Shifty get more usage. So if you want to see defog Braviary and Vullaby on the tier keep Shuckle, if you want to see a more balanced tier please ban it.
Conclusion: Like I said, getting rid of SW and SR is almost impossible as the offensive pressure is enormous and the options are limited, sure you can use Xatu and CB Rhyperior to prevent Shuckle's hazards but you can't slap those on every team. Like I said and showed Shuckle's hazards are almost impossible to prevent and to spin/defog leading to a metagame were TR and full Stall are the only choices to ladder and where HO without Shuckle is impossible. It was a shame that I couldn't participate in the suspect discussion more but I hope this words reflect my point of view about Shuckle.
You are overlooking the occassional oddball team that suddenly improves greatly when a normally unviable mon/set is used.
When I started playing in Gen V, I built a NU team. I could not get it to work for a week.
Then, after dozens of games that did not go anywhere, I decided to make a checklist. What I needed, was a Grass-type that resists Fighting, while having a speed of at least 86 (outspeeding Sawk) and being capable of 2HKO'ing Musharna as well.
Only one mon fulfills this, and so I added Leavanny of all things as my sixth mon. Mind it, Sticky Web did not exist and Leavanny was written off as unviable, outclassed and whatever.
But it made the team function decently and even good, lasting throughout most meta stages even though the team changed slightly here and there (until Jynx and Scoli butted in).
I can see this Shuckle easily being a similar case, even if I know literally nothing about the team.
BASED
Banned deucer.
I think you completely misunderstood what i was referring to so i guess i will explain to you. The logic i was referring to was the amazingly well thought out "This pokemon can be broken but I dont use the broken set so it doesnt deserve ban ehehehehehhh." Now that I explained that to you I think I should mention you should most definitely save that oh so exciting and relevant tale for a time where it makes sense it was truly an exciting one!
Exploud has been much more painful to play against than Shuckle. There's almost nothing in the tier that can switch into it without being 2HKO'd except maybe Specially Defensive Slowking. With Sticky Web slowing an opponent's Pokemon down, he'll easily net a few kills. How do you deal with dog when you don't have anything fast enough to revenge kill it?
Well you can use the mighty specially defensive Assault Vest Soundproof Mr Mime but that is extremely niche and it sucks. But generally Flying types that can revenge kill exploud like Moltres and Choice Specs Yanmega help dealing with Exploud.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Exploud is a bit different than the others because of how incredibly spammable boomburst is.
Hitmonlee can't just spam HJK. It can miss, protect can happen, ghost types make it a liability.
Exploud can use boomburst with zero drawback and kill nearly everything bar mons like registeel. However, boomburst is so strong and its counters are so lacking in offensive presences that clicking boomburst is never a liability bar opposing mr. mime (who can hardly be called a threat)
Hitmonlee can't just spam HJK. It can miss, protect can happen, ghost types make it a liability.
Exploud can use boomburst with zero drawback and kill nearly everything bar mons like registeel. However, boomburst is so strong and its counters are so lacking in offensive presences that clicking boomburst is never a liability bar opposing mr. mime (who can hardly be called a threat)
What MikeDawg said. That dog cleanly 2HKOs Doublade with Boomburst. Resistance makes no difference.
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