Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 9 - Old Town Road

[Thunder Pwoell]

I'm not sure yet if it's broken or not but one thing I'm sure of is that the "Spectrier is broken because I have to run a ghost resist" arguments should never be the reason for its ban. First because it's not the only ghost type breaker in the tier, Specs Dragapult is also very threatening to teams without ghost resists, obviously its shadow ball is much more easier to tank with non ghost resists, but they can often get 2HKO'd with a SpD drop, and if we ban Spectrier, Aegislash is probably gonna make a comeback at some point, so teams would run ghost resists anw (not saying that Aegi's and Dragapult's Shadow Ball/Hex have the same influence in the teambuilder as Spectrier's, I'm just saying that Spectrier is not the only threat that's worth running a ghost resist against). Second because there are a couple of solid ghost resists that also provide good utility outside of checking it. Mandibuzz provides Defog, a solid check to SD setup sweepers with Foul Play, and is a good knock off user, making it pretty splashable. With it's gitantic bulk it can switch-in even on terrible scenarios like Specs Hex with burn chip, Nasty Plot into Shadow ball SpD Drop, and doesn't mind disable variants. Hydreigon also provides defog support while being one of the only reliable Heatran checks in the tier. It fits better on teams that can pressure Spectrier better because it may get beaten by Spectrier in the long run. Specs or Nasty Plot Hydreigon also works if you're running a very offensive team and don't give it many opportunities. Tyranitar takes nothing from its attacks, negates leftovers recovery (which punishes Sub pretty well), and can set up rocks on it. Just like Hydreigon, it's one of the best Heatran answers, can setup sand for Garchomp or Drill, and also checks a plethora of special attackers thanks to its absurd bulk. With Crunch, it can OHKO or 2HKO Spectrier with no bulk, and 3HKO bulky Spectrier with burn. Tytar dislikes Will-O-Wisp because it negates its only recovery option in leftovers while making it weaker, but there are always Tapu Fini and Heatran as options to absorb Will-O-Wisp. Finally, we have Blissey, which litterally takes 0% from Spectriers stabs and completely walls it unless it runs Dark Pulse. While Blissey can't touch Spectrier behind a Sub without using Shadow Ball, it can PP stall it by using Teleport, bringing in something with boots, and switching back in. It can be paired with Specs Dragapult to avoid being too passive, as it can OHKO Spectrier without a Calm Mind Boost, and if it does have Calm Mind, it doesn't have dark pulse bc CM sets need Sub and w-o-w to be effective, and mono dark pulse sucks. There are enough "answers" to Spectrier to where the teambuilding restriction is a problem itself. Though I guess the rare taunt sets can be problematic.
I think the issue is rather that Bulky CM Spectrier can beat most of the aforementioned "answers". While they are reliable answers to nasty plot and Specs sets, Bulky Calm Mind Spectrier can theoratically win almost any match-up besides Blissey, because breaking its sub is very challenging onc it burned the checks and has a cm boost. Only the Bulky CM set needs very specific techs to be beaten, like Snarl on Hydreigon or Mandibuzz, and Rest on Tyranitar.

What a truly disingenuous answer. You either are just purposely are misleading because of some personal agenda you have to keep the horse around or maybe you're just bad; I'd argue it's purposely misleading. Not only does dragapult have 2/3rds of the base special attack as the horse ensuring that it absolutely will not 2hko any of the things that the horse does, it doesnt even have the same stacking ability which makes it so hard to to deal wiht the horse in the first place. So what are you talking about. Secondly, your comparision to aegislash is funny, as it also does not have the stackign abilithy and is slow as dirt, as well as easily taken out.

The rest of your argument up to blissey from there is actually irrelevant and speculatory so I will ignore it for now unless you want to expand on it.

Now for blissey, "which litterally takes 0% from Spectriers stabs and completely walls it unless it runs Dark Pulse. While Blissey can't touch Spectrier behind a Sub without using Shadow Ball, it can PP stall it by using Teleport, bringing in something with boots, and switching back in." This actually was the most egregious of your points. if you have actually played the game to even a moderate amount of competency, used the horse, read many of these posts in this thread alone, or ever been past 1600 (which I know you have so I know you're being disingenuous), you would know that this is just misinformation. There have been myraids of horses that have uses blissey as setup fodder alone and just won the game. Not to mention getting rid of blissey is not a hard feat if it's not on stall, so even then that point is to keep that one mon alone so ur not 5-0d by the horse; already on rocky territory.

lastly.... "There are enough "answers" to Spectrier to where the teambuilding restriction is a problem itself. " This is contradictory to what u said ur entire paragraph so was what you were saying satire? Truly just curious mate.
Can you clarify?

There's definitely no reason to keep this obviously broken horse whos larger form got banned from ubers in this lower tier. I promise you that you can still win games without forcing the tier to play the game of "keep the horse answer alive and healthy or lose the game" every other game or so. I promise you.

 

[edge363]

Spectrier? He isn't anywhere near urshifu/Mag/cinderace/zygarde/other bans power level. I don't get it XD

There are at least a few common pokemon that deal with him easily. Its not like ttar, mandibuzz(He learns whirlwind folks! XD), some sp def unaware clef, hydreigon, heatran, and blissey were terrible pokemon before he was common, and they are all either counters or hard checks. Not to all possible sets, but there are tons of pokemon with many sets that can't be countered completely by a single mon(and thats a lot of the reason any of them are viable!). Grassy glide rillaboom checks him hard, sucker punch from cinderace, hell even nidoking can run sucker punch to add some speed control(min 60% against scarf/specs spectrier), Dragapault goes through subs. The list goes on. This seems more like they don't want offensive Mons that influence the meta? Because he doesn't warp it, he's just something you should think about when building a team, but the same can be said for most offensive mons. I think banded rillaboom has a much more warping presence in general. If you dont have a bird , corv, or mandibuzz, banded rillaboom can just destroy a team.

I just think this is stretching to ban a pokemon that's annoying! The argument "He can muscle past his counters with rocks, team support, and status" should be true for all offensive mons, or they wouldn't be played at all.

 

[ausma]

Spectrier? He isn't anywhere near urshifu/Mag/cinderace/zygarde/other bans power level. I don't get it XD

There are at least a few common pokemon that deal with him easily. Its not like ttar, mandibuzz(He learns whirlwind folks! XD), some sp def unaware clef, hydreigon, heatran, and blissey were terrible pokemon before he was common, and they are all either counters or hard checks. Not to all possible sets, but there are tons of pokemon with many sets that can't be countered completely by a single mon(and thats a lot of the reason any of them are viable!). Grassy glide rillaboom checks him hard, sucker punch from cinderace, hell even nidoking can run sucker punch to add some speed control(min 60% against scarf/specs spectrier), Dragapault goes through subs. The list goes on. This seems more like they don't want offensive Mons that influence the meta? Because he doesn't warp it, he's just something you should think about when building a team, but the same can be said for most offensive mons. I think banded rillaboom has a much more warping presence in general. If you dont have a bird , corv, or mandibuzz, banded rillaboom can just destroy a team.

I just think this is stretching to ban a pokemon that's annoying! The argument "He can muscle past his counters with rocks, team support, and status" should be true for all offensive mons, or they wouldn't be played at all.

Not necessarily. I definitely agree that flexibility in wallbreaking ability is incredibly important, as being very easily checked by nearly anything in the tier is typically a sign that, to succeed, a Pokemon will need wide-ranged team support before anything can actually be accomplished at all, and that tends to manifest in a very suboptimal way as you build a majority of your team just to make a certain niche option work.

However, there is a gigantic difference in having natural checks and unnatural checks. If you look at the options that are being run in heavy part to Spectrier--say things like SpDef Tyranitar, Defog Hydreigon, Zarude, or Obstagoon--these are options that aren't really that natural at all, and in fact are fairly suboptimal in the grand scheme of things. Although these Pokemon can provide some utility for their teams, I really do not want to force myself to bring Rest SpDef Tyranitar, which is a fat momentum sap, just to make sure I don't autolose to Spectrier. Every time I've made myself use an option such as these, I groan in frustration, as it ultimately forces me to stray away from otherwise interesting or synergistic options just to make sure I don't lose to Spectrier on preview.

Comparatively, let's look at something like Garchomp or Rillaboom, both very potent wallbreakers with access to very good boosting options and even immediate breaking power. Both can be incredibly powerful and tend to be very consistent at their jobs, but it's pretty easy to slot in a check for these Pokemon since there are a lot of Pokemon in the metagame that are naturally effective that do a very good job handling them while providing useful, synergistic utility options. For these examples specifically, Corviknight comes to mind, being able to provide quite a bit of neat utility with Defog and momentum generation while being able to handle other threats like Excadrill or Landorus-T at the same time. Other examples include Ferrothorn for non-Fire Blast variants of Garchomp and Zapdos for non-Stone Edge variants of Garchomp. There are definitely even more examples that I haven't even mentioned here, but you get my point.

The issue with the former example is that most adapted Spectrier checks only really handle Spectrier, and fall flat in a lot of other departments, which is the textbook definition of teambuilder constraint. SpDef Tyranitar, for example, can provide Stealth Rock, but why should I be forced to use Tyranitar and sap my momentum when other, more versatile options like Landorus-T and Clefable exist that can provide additional utility like Knock Off support or momentum? Obstagoon is another example. It can run Knock Off, sure, but loses to a majority of physical walls in the tier, and is chipped significantly with Rocky Helmet spam and Flame Orb recoil. These Pokemon also tend to compress weaknesses and poor matchups, which can further worsen your team's composition just so you don't autolose to Spectrier. The worst part, though, is that Spectrier has adapted incredibly well to its checks anyway, and can even 1v1 a majority of them with a bulky CM variant. Mandibuzz loses the 1v1, for example, making it pretty finicky and only really effective handling its Choiced variants. This is the other issue with Spectrier that makes it fundamentally absurd and an incredibly unhealthy presence in the tier, as even when you bring really niche options, you still have a good shot to be either setup fodder or just drop after enough sustained pressure.

I'll do a more expansive post later regarding my whole thoughts on Spectrier, but I felt that I needed to address this really quick. Stay tuned for that.

 

[OvertoneSeries]

I just think this is stretching to ban a pokemon that's annoying! The argument "He can muscle past his counters with rocks, team support, and status" should be true for all offensive mons, or they wouldn't be played at all.

The issue is the amount of checks there are is severely limited compared to other pokemon, and the ease at which it can ease past them is much greater. There are about 6 "hard" defensive checks truly viable in OU that I can think of (and that's if you count Obstagoon as viable), with a couple more soft checks that can annoy it like Heatran and Unaware Clef, and when the most splashable (Mandibuzz and Blissey) can be made into complete setup fodder by certain sets, while others (Heatran and Obstagoon) get their lives ruined by Specs, it's a problem. Their lack of splashability also doesn't help; stacking up on dark or normal types necessarily stacks up on Fighting weaknesses, and a few of them severely compete for space on a team, making it harder to stack up on checks in case.

Compare this to Rillaboom, a pokemon also difficult to offensively check thanks to having priority. There are a huge amount of OU-viable grass resists; Corv, Dragonite, Ferro, Heatran, Kartana, Moltres and Volcarona are all OU by usage pokemon that 4x-resist Grassy Glide. Rillaboom can lure and some of these with Superpower or annoy them with Knock Off, but ultimately, it's very easy to stack up on checks to it without even realizing. Its setup sets are generally not great against any of these, who are bulky enough live hits at +2 and (apart from Ferro and Kart) deal super effective damage in return. This is just 4x resists; there's a myriad other single grass resists in the tier, as well as a couple faster priority users.

Having few switchins doesn't necessarily make a pokemon broken; but other pokemon who lack switchins at least have offensive counterplay. Nidoking may be able to hit everything, but it folds hard to most of the fast offensive mons in the tier thanks to its worse-than-spectrier bulk and low speed. Spectrier, meanwhile, thanks to its easy access to Substitute (due to how good STAB hex is) and its incredibly good speed tier, does not allow for nearly as much offensive counterplay. Rillaboom can't exactly deal with it behind a sub (though most of the good spectrier soft checks can at least remove its sub before dying), and failing that, sucker punch mindgames are inherently inconsistent against non-choiced pokemon, especially if they can press sub again.

Spectrier restricts teams to a very small amount of viable defensive structures (pivot blissey/mandibuzz+dragapult, heatran+hydreigon or ttar sand as the most notable/viable imo) in a way that more balanced offensive pokemon are unable to do. I don't think either specs or subCM are broken sets in a vacuum, and are fairly tolerable if prepared for; but the necessity for preparing for them, and the limited way that teams can adequately prepare for both.

and now so im not just echoing everyone else it's time for a dogshit set that "checks" spectrier completely unreliably and does very little else

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 SpD
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Spirit Break
- Foul Play
dont use this

 

[zelda333]

It being hard walled by basically any normal type, being super predictable

mhm what normal types are you suggesting be run on every team? and by the way, the two most common, blissey and obstagoon, are both hard walled back by common spectrier sets (sub cm, sub disable respectively). and its predictability is honestly why i think it should be gone. imagine a mon only having one move but it still sweeps your whole team and there's nothing you can do to stop it without at least two dark types because if you just use one like mandi or ttar that have to come in on other things it gets worn down for the end game sweep. mandi just loses to bulky sub cm wisp as well.

 

[KamenOH]

There are heaps of stops to spectrier and calling them niche is, to me, reflective of an unwillingness to adapt. If spectrier is such a metagame force as this thread would claim, then its checks can certainly not be considered "out" of the meta.

One of these checks could be Galarian Moltres, which is Dark/Flying with a considerable 125 SpD. It tanks harder than Mandibuzz, and actually has a 100 base SpA, meaning its Fiery Wrath, a 90 BP dark type move, will do admirable damage against our spectral steed.
It also doesnt care about being burned, since it runs off SpA, so 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 168 SpD Moltres-Galar: 78-93 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after burn damage (168 was a random number for calc sake) means it can roost and still fire off 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 318-374 (86.1 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
With all these high SpD pokemon available, with a fair few being able to launch an attack of their own to admirable damage, it makes me think that the stalwarts of Smogon aren't adapting as much as one should.
Is Spectrier ban worthy? Who knows, but I think it being an offensive challenge will make the meta healthier, and less defensive.

 

[ScarfchomperL100]

One of these checks could be Galarian Moltres, which is Dark/Flying with a considerable 125 SpD. It tanks harder than Mandibuzz, and actually has a 100 base SpA, meaning its Fiery Wrath, a 90 BP dark type move, will do admirable damage against our spectral steed.
It also doesnt care about being burned, since it runs off SpA, so 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 168 SpD Moltres-Galar: 78-93 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after burn damage (168 was a random number for calc sake) means it can roost and still fire off 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 318-374 (86.1 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
With all these high SpD pokemon available, with a fair few being able to launch an attack of their own to admirable damage, it makes me think that the stalwarts of Smogon aren't adapting as much as one should.
Is Spectrier ban worthy? Who knows, but I think it being an offensive challenge will make the meta healthier, and less defensive.

Galarian Moltres does not learn Roost and if it did people would have been heavily suggesting it a long time ago: As such, it cannot continue to tank Spectrier Shadow Balls or Hex in the long run, especially when it is getting chipped down by burn damage. The only way for it to heal is with Rest, which is of course a momentum sink for 2 turns without Sleep Talk.

 

[FrozenVoltz]

Spectrier is an incredibly good mon, we all know that. However, is it really that good to be banworthy? IMO it's not better or as centralizing as Magearna, Urfshifu, Dracovish and such. But that's my opinion. It being hard walled by basically any normal type, being super predictable (and no, Shadow Ball isn't a banded 1000BP Fisheous Rend) makes it similar to what Kartana was last gen to be honest; a couple good sets, but all being relatively the same and super predictable.

Is there currently a better revenge killer in the tier? I don't think so. However I do not think it's banworthy. Is has both good offensive and defensive soft-checks. Dragapult can easily kill the sub-set by outspeeding it + infiltrator for example, while Blissey just hard walls any version of it unless running dark pulse which is much, much worse than hex + shadow ball. Also finding out its set isn't that hard, as it really only runs 2 good items types in Leftovers and Choice items.

Normal types are awful in the grand scheme of things outside of Blissey meaning you only have one reliable option to be inmune to Spectrier main STAB.Also Predictability has never made a broken pokemon balanced Dracovish was predictable and it was still broken.Dragapult cannot revenge kill spectrier if its using Choice Scarf meaning scouting the set is the first priority and even if its not scarf Spectrier can just switch out.Also both sets of spectrier can beat their checks respectively Specs beats Mandibuzz and Hydreigon while Sub beats Blissey.In short spectrier's counterplay is limited and inconsistent



Also whether these other pokemon were more broken than spectrier or not it doesn't matter Spectrier doesn't suddenly become less broken because other broken mons exist

 

[zelda333]

s Spectrier ban worthy? Who knows, but I think it being an offensive challenge will make the meta healthier, and less defensive.

Quite the opposite. People never seem to think any further than "mon strong=bad for defense" when it comes to these tests. Spectrier being gone means any offensive mons that would insta lose to spec coming out are better. Lele, ace (without sucker), kart, chomp, g-zap, etc are all setup fodder for spectrier (and by setup I mean clicking shadow ball cuz it sets up sp atk boost for you lel). Right now we're trying to rack our brains for defensive answers to stop spectrier from insta sweeping. Sp def ferro, pex, hippo, gastro, etc are all things I've reluctantly used (besides the usuals) to try (and mostly fail) to keep the horse from sweeping. Not to mention spectrier being gone opens up the door for many more unique offensive ghosts like gengar and blaceph.

The fact that sp def hydreigon even EXISTS should be proof enough that offense gets better with spectrier gone. Looking forward to specs/nasty plot hydreigon's return.

 

[KamenOH]

Galarian Moltres does not learn Roost and if it did people would have been heavily suggesting it a long time ago: As such, it cannot continue to tank Spectrier Shadow Balls or Hex in the long run, especially when it is getting chipped down by burn damage. The only way for it to heal is with Rest, which is of course a momentum sink for 2 turns without Sleep Talk.

in the long run

it guaranteed 2hkos spectrier, like 80% damage minimum, and unless you spam substitute, will die to fiery wrath. Galatres forces spectrier out, weakens it considerably HP wise, or straight KOs spectrier. As for rest, lum berries exist, and allow it to keep on the offensive.
its a check in my book, and a damn good one at it.

 

[FrozenVoltz]

it guaranteed 2hkos spectrier, like 80% damage minimum, and unless you spam substitute, will die to fiery wrath. Galatres forces spectrier out, weakens it considerably HP wise, or straight KOs spectrier. As for rest, lum berries exist, and allow it to keep on the offensive.
its a check in my book, and a damn good one at it.

Lum Berry is a one time use item and you will inevitably fall against Spectrier in the long run

 

[zelda333]

As for rest, lum berries exist, and allow it to keep on the offensive.
its a check in my book, and a damn good one at it.

Incredibly ironic that you can say offense gets worse with spectrier gone while suggesting rest lum berry moltres-g in the same breath. Truly, impressive stuff. If moltres-g has to give up either of its setup or attack moves to not even reliably check spectrier (you're also now weak to rocks btw), it's no longer an offensive threat.

 

[Fc]

Going against what looks like the majority, I will likely be voting do not ban on spectrier. In the games I've played in this meta it's been a good pokemon, but compared to other bans that I was on the fence on like Urshifu it is easier to deal with in general. It has a decent amount of versatility despite it's lacking movepool with sub wisp, scarf, and specs being the main sets, but generally it can be assumed what's coming. This doesn't make it bad, but it's no surprise it's lacking coverage. During my run, I had mixed def ferrothorn and sp.def hydreigon alongside standard speed control with scarf lando-t. The only one that is mainly for spectrier is the hydreigon, and while sp.def isn't the best set to have to run it's still quite useful for other things such as a semi fast defogger as well as a check to heatran and a solid switch in to the slow twins and galarian slowking.

Spectrier has a solid amount of checks, it's just hard to counter, but those checks are reliable for the most part.
is a very solid way of beating it, because at the very least it is able to stop any form of snowball choice sets have going, and teleport can help get in something like dragapult against the more dangerous sub sets.
works quite well, beating choice sets reliably and only really having difficulty with phys.def invested wisp sub, and it can uturn into speed control if that comes up.
is great at taking it on especially with rest, and can provide drill and other sand sweepers with the speed control to revenge it.
walls pretty much every set and move, and is a solid breaker overall. Wish support can help prevent the speed it gets worn down at as well.

Random normal types such as exploud and porygon2, as well as most dark types can wall it for the most part, and ideally you can keep them around long enough since it doesn't have the best of ways to hit them naturally. Specs hex hurts darks, but they can take it.

among other random special pivots can status it/knock it/chip it and wear it down over time, and these can act as great pivots to scarf sets as well as just ways to slow it down from winning.

forms of speed control or priority such as scarf lando-t, pult, and sucker punch ace can force it out and paired with special checks on a standard balance team it can work quite well.

Against opposing HO, scarf caly can be a super devastating set especailly with Urshifu banned, but I feel like it's always doable, and when I tried reqs with ho it wasn't the biggest threat out there. Stall has its own ways to deal with it, and balance does as well. You'll even see some teams lacking ghost resists beat spectrier, and while this replay is outdated the concept can still hold true, stack sp.def mons and fast revenge killers on balance to cover spec among other things. I think most teams should ideally have a resist to most types anyway, and with how strong of an offensive type ghost is I don't see a reason that having to run a normal or dark type is restricting enough to warrant a ban off of that. I get that it can break through some of its checks, but it can't break them all and it can't do it reliably.

Personally I just think it's another offensive mon that has to be accounted for, but it has more clear checks than something like cinderace, and while I don't know if that or magearna are worse than spectrier yet, I don't think that spectrier deserves a ban. I feel like the meta may be a bit more fun without it around because there's a bit more room to work around, but there are still limiting mons like ace and mag, and I don't think that fun is a good enough reason since many more things could be banned to increase diversity or make the meta more fun, and spec doesn't make it all too restrictive from what I've found.

 

[theotherguytm]

You'll even see some teams lacking ghost resists beat spectrier, and while this replay is outdated the concept can still hold true, stack sp.def mons and fast revenge killers on balance to cover spec among other things.

Citing this replay is utterly ridiculous. Not only has Empo got access to the now-banned Pheromosa that revenge kills it, he also gets lucky with a Moonblast SpA drop that forces Spectrier to take a Knock Off in order to get a kill. If Moonblast hadn't dropped SpA, Spectrier would have 2HKOed Pex on the switch, preventing it being Knocked Off and allowing Spec to stick around for later in the game rather than be immediately sacced. Also, Clef would struggle to break Spectrier's Sub against SubCM versions.

The fact remains that Blissey and Mandibuzz DO NOT check setup variants of Spectrier. Blissey has to run Shadow Ball and still loses to SubCM+Taunt/Dark Pulse. Mandibuzz just has a long, long list of problems in the current metagame in general that having to run it over Corv or Zapdos really bites, and it's still SubCMWisp setup bait. In fact, Mandi can't even check Specs in the long run reliably:
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 128-151 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage (and you're not going to be running MaxSpd, let's be real here.)

So that leaves SpD Rest TTar, which as others have mentioned is a huge momentum sink and just a bad rocker, and Obstagoon, a Guts breaker who people are unironically running RestTalk on to give it any longevity at all.

And as for those SpD pivots:
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 223-264 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 300-356 (77.7 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 163-193 (42.2 - 50%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 153-181 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and burn damage
And Pex is the only one of those that gets recovery, so Spectrier can just outlast them. And this is just the Specs set. One Wisp as you switch in once, one Hex on the next switch and you're toasted.

As for Revenge killers:
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 259-306 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This thing is pretty decently bulky. Yes, it will be chipped from Sub and all, but it has to not be behind a Sub. If it's behind a Sub, that reduces the number of revenge killers in the tier to 1: Infiltrator Dragapult.

So, to summarise (I'm not going to discuss Scarf because it's pretty clear that's just another cleaner) the Specs set has 4 viable Pokemon in the entire game that can switch into it twice unaided. Two of those can be beaten by the correct move on the setup sets, and the other two have to rely on Rest and/or Wish from other Pokemon to do this. Only Scarfers, Sucker Punches or Dragapult can revenge kill it, and all bar Dragapult lose to the setup sets. This is pretty much textbook broken no? "Just outplay it" isn't an answer, because you run the risk of being outplayed yourself. You can outplay any broken mon. But when it turns out to have the moveset that beats your answer, there just isn't any other option. It's not Dracovish, sure, but Dracovish never had base 130 Speed and access to Swords Dance/Bulk Up.

 

[Fc]

Citing this replay is utterly ridiculous. Not only has Empo got access to the now-banned Pheromosa that revenge kills it, he also gets lucky with a Moonblast SpA drop that forces Spectrier to take a Knock Off in order to get a kill. If Moonblast hadn't dropped SpA, Spectrier would have 2HKOed Pex on the switch, preventing it being Knocked Off and allowing Spec to stick around for later in the game rather than be immediately sacced. Also, Clef would struggle to break Spectrier's Sub against SubCM versions.

Sure he got lucky with the drop, but this was just an example of how it's possible. By no means is it optimal to just not run a ghost resist, but it's possible. In that positioning where it was sacked also, any fast revenge killer can pick it off, and it would be forced out also by anything faster if it didn't get the drop that could kill it which is quite a few things, but hypothetical scenarios never get anywhere so I'll leave it at that.

The fact remains that Blissey and Mandibuzz DO NOT check setup variants of Spectrier. Blissey has to run Shadow Ball and still loses to SubCM+Taunt/Dark Pulse. Mandibuzz just has a long, long list of problems in the current metagame in general that having to run it over Corv or Zapdos really bites, and it's still SubCMWisp setup bait. In fact, Mandi can't even check Specs in the long run reliably:
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 128-151 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage (and you're not going to be running MaxSpd, let's be real here.)

By definition, they do check it. They don't hard counter it, but I don't think that a mon with multiple viable checks and some arguable hard counters like rest ttar is broken. Sub CM + Taunt/Dark Pulse is very hard to fit because you're giving up will o wisp, letting mandibuzz be the one that beats it reliably among other things since the burn utility is quite nice. Even though yes mandibuzz isn't perfect right now, I still think it's a fine mon that can be added to a team if you need a ghost resist. It can still come in on things like the slowtwins, rillaboom, excadrill, and non stone edge garchomp. The calc isn't amazing with specs hex, but that's a very low chance to 2hko sp.def mandi after getting its boots knocked off, and with boots it's in a fine position to take those hits all the time. Sure it's not the easiest thing ever to keep an item, but I think that's just management of what's imporant for a game plan.

So that leaves SpD Rest TTar, which as others have mentioned is a huge momentum sink and just a bad rocker, and Obstagoon, a Guts breaker who people are unironically running RestTalk on to give it any longevity at all.

True that rest ttar isn't always the best, but imo it's a fine set because ttar has a lot of things it likes to pivot in on so the recovery could be very useful, I've found myself wanting it on sets before in games where it gets worn down but is needed, and something like rest rocks crunch filler doesn't seem bad, it's a decent special sponge for things like heatran, zapdos, spectrier, dragapult, slowking-g, moltres, etc. I've also never seen rest talk obstagoon, seems kinda wack but it's an offensive check that's quite reliable if wanted, similar to what urshifu tried to do for it before but shadow ball doesn't even chip it, the burn does.

And as for those SpD pivots:
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 223-264 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 300-356 (77.7 - 92.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 163-193 (42.2 - 50%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 153-181 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and burn damage
And Pex is the only one of those that gets recovery, so Spectrier can just outlast them. And this is just the Specs set. One Wisp as you switch in once, one Hex on the next switch and you're toasted.

Sure it can outlast them, but they are exactly what I said, pivots. Ferrothorn is 2hko'd after coming in on a wisp then coming in on another hex sure, but idt ferro should be the sole ghost switch in because if it ran it, dragapult also 2hko's with burn + specs hex after rocks, not to hard compare the two but it's always there, ferro can still pivot though. The rest are similar, pex fits the definition of pivot best because it can heal it off, and av magearna isn't always 2hko'd which is still a plus. These shouldn't be the only ghost answer when one of the better breakers is a strong ghost type, this has been true for pretty much the whole gen as mandi has always been around in OU to beat pult and others for example.

As for Revenge killers:
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 259-306 (70.1 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This thing is pretty decently bulky. Yes, it will be chipped from Sub and all, but it has to not be behind a Sub. If it's behind a Sub, that reduces the number of revenge killers in the tier to 1: Infiltrator Dragapult.

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 348-410 (102 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 336-396 (91 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Still can revenge if running Knock Off which is a fairly standard coverage move afaik, dropping defog isn't hard when there are plenty of other options and it's a fine revenge killer for both sets.

So, to summarise (I'm not going to discuss Scarf because it's pretty clear that's just another cleaner) the Specs set has 4 viable Pokemon in the entire game that can switch into it twice unaided.

If we look at the current vr, there's a lot more than 4 ranked mons that can switch into it twice unaided. I don't know what you're counting as twice, like once into wisp then once into hex or like twice into boosted hex, but there's still more than 4.
Aside from those pivots I mentioned that can take a wisp into 1 hex at the very least, there's manidbuzz, blissey, hydreigon, tyranitar all as A- rank Pokemon or up, then a bit lower down there's Zarude, moltres galar to an extent, Obstagoon, Bisharp and Grimmsnarl to an extent, Diggersby although without heal bell support it doesn't like a burn, Exploud, and Porygon2. You could even run a tech like water veil mantine or something if you wanted to have some fun with it to not lose to any of the sets most of the time barring like sp.def drops. This is excluding the numerous high ranked as well as more niche mons that can offensively check it by revenge killing it, offense relies on them quite a bit and I think it's not impossible to do so.

Only Scarfers, Sucker Punches or Dragapult can revenge kill it, and all bar Dragapult lose to the setup sets. This is pretty much textbook broken no? "Just outplay it" isn't an answer, because you run the risk of being outplayed yourself. You can outplay any broken mon. But when it turns out to have the moveset that beats your answer, there just isn't any other option. It's not Dracovish, sure, but Dracovish never had base 130 Speed and access to Swords Dance/Bulk Up.

Yeah, it's a fast mon so do need priority or speed for it, I'd say most teams at least have some form of speed control that can revenge this because having 0 things faster than a non scarf spec and none of the super reliable walls is a recipe for disaster, as it is for not having things that can beat any of the other top offensive mons. Grassy glide rillaboom and other things that can take a hit like melmetal which even takes +1 specs shadow ball can also revenge it with those, so I don't think the tier is super lacking on options to revenge it. Sure "just outplay it" isn't a great answer, but when the mon literally has mud shot as coverage I don't think for standard resists and pivots it's as hard as it is for something like cinderace which can just bulk up zen headbutt a toxapex for example, or spam pivots around hippo/slowbro. I also don't really like the comparisons to vish, because vish is an insanely significant amount stronger and has more coverage, just didn't need to click it because of the insane breaking power that just beat everything that wasn't an immunity.

Standard Pex in the calc literally takes more from banded fishious than specs shadow ball

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

Didn't plan on responding to anything since I just wanted to put my own thoughts on the mon out there, but if there was a lack of clarity in what I was saying that's my bad, I just personally don't think that it's that hard to deal with defensively with the reliable options we have, and generally can be revenge killed also by teams with decent speed control. It's certainly very powerful in the meta, I just don't see it as something that is needed to ban and is more just something that might be fun to not have around for a bit of freedom, although I don't know how much freedom will be added if we just remove the necessity for a ghost resist and make it something that's still very appreciated for a team against something like hex spamming pult, even if the power difference is noticable.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

Sure he got lucky with the drop, but this was just an example of how it's possible. By no means is it optimal to just not run a ghost resist, but it's possible. In that positioning where it was sacked also, any fast revenge killer can pick it off, and it would be forced out also by anything faster if it didn't get the drop that could kill it which is quite a few things, but hypothetical scenarios never get anywhere so I'll leave it at that.


By definition, they do check it. They don't hard counter it, but I don't think that a mon with multiple viable checks and some arguable hard counters like rest ttar is broken. Sub CM + Taunt/Dark Pulse is very hard to fit because you're giving up will o wisp, letting mandibuzz be the one that beats it reliably among other things since the burn utility is quite nice. Even though yes mandibuzz isn't perfect right now, I still think it's a fine mon that can be added to a team if you need a ghost resist. It can still come in on things like the slowtwins, rillaboom, excadrill, and non stone edge garchomp. The calc isn't amazing with specs hex, but that's a very low chance to 2hko sp.def mandi after getting its boots knocked off, and with boots it's in a fine position to take those hits all the time. Sure it's not the easiest thing ever to keep an item, but I think that's just management of what's imporant for a game plan.


True that rest ttar isn't always the best, but imo it's a fine set because ttar has a lot of things it likes to pivot in on so the recovery could be very useful, I've found myself wanting it on sets before in games where it gets worn down but is needed, and something like rest rocks crunch filler doesn't seem bad, it's a decent special sponge for things like heatran, zapdos, spectrier, dragapult, slowking-g, moltres, etc. I've also never seen rest talk obstagoon, seems kinda wack but it's an offensive check that's quite reliable if wanted, similar to what urshifu tried to do for it before but shadow ball doesn't even chip it, the burn does.


Sure it can outlast them, but they are exactly what I said, pivots. Ferrothorn is 2hko'd after coming in on a wisp then coming in on another hex sure, but idt ferro should be the sole ghost switch in because if it ran it, dragapult also 2hko's with burn + specs hex after rocks, not to hard compare the two but it's always there, ferro can still pivot though. The rest are similar, pex fits the definition of pivot best because it can heal it off, and av magearna isn't always 2hko'd which is still a plus. These shouldn't be the only ghost answer when one of the better breakers is a strong ghost type, this has been true for pretty much the whole gen as mandi has always been around in OU to beat pult and others for example.



252 Atk Landorus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 348-410 (102 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 336-396 (91 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Still can revenge if running Knock Off which is a fairly standard coverage move afaik, dropping defog isn't hard when there are plenty of other options and it's a fine revenge killer for both sets.


If we look at the current vr, there's a lot more than 4 ranked mons that can switch into it twice unaided. I don't know what you're counting as twice, like once into wisp then once into hex or like twice into boosted hex, but there's still more than 4.
Aside from those pivots I mentioned that can take a wisp into 1 hex at the very least, there's manidbuzz, blissey, hydreigon, tyranitar all as A- rank Pokemon or up, then a bit lower down there's Zarude, moltres galar to an extent, Obstagoon, Bisharp and Grimmsnarl to an extent, Diggersby although without heal bell support it doesn't like a burn, Exploud, and Porygon2. You could even run a tech like water veil mantine or something if you wanted to have some fun with it to not lose to any of the sets most of the time barring like sp.def drops. This is excluding the numerous high ranked as well as more niche mons that can offensively check it by revenge killing it, offense relies on them quite a bit and I think it's not impossible to do so.


Yeah, it's a fast mon so do need priority or speed for it, I'd say most teams at least have some form of speed control that can revenge this because having 0 things faster than a non scarf spec and none of the super reliable walls is a recipe for disaster, as it is for not having things that can beat any of the other top offensive mons. Grassy glide rillaboom and other things that can take a hit like melmetal which even takes +1 specs shadow ball can also revenge it with those, so I don't think the tier is super lacking on options to revenge it. Sure "just outplay it" isn't a great answer, but when the mon literally has mud shot as coverage I don't think for standard resists and pivots it's as hard as it is for something like cinderace which can just bulk up zen headbutt a toxapex for example, or spam pivots around hippo/slowbro. I also don't really like the comparisons to vish, because vish is an insanely significant amount stronger and has more coverage, just didn't need to click it because of the insane breaking power that just beat everything that wasn't an immunity.

Standard Pex in the calc literally takes more from banded fishious than specs shadow ball

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Toxapex: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Toxapex: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

Didn't plan on responding to anything since I just wanted to put my own thoughts on the mon out there, but if there was a lack of clarity in what I was saying that's my bad, I just personally don't think that it's that hard to deal with defensively with the reliable options we have, and generally can be revenge killed also by teams with decent speed control. It's certainly very powerful in the meta, I just don't see it as something that is needed to ban and is more just something that might be fun to not have around for a bit of freedom, although I don't know how much freedom will be added if we just remove the necessity for a ghost resist and make it something that's still very appreciated for a team against something like hex spamming pult, even if the power difference is noticable.

I'm not gonna write an essay on why restrictive mon needs to be banned because its that obvious but for some people i guess its not but quite literally every answer to spect is absolute garbage and would be never used on a competitive team otherwise. Never do you want to use shit like spdef drei which covers nothing else in the tier bar tran which it gets poisoned by. Next answer to spectrier being Zarude I am not gonna explain why you shouldn't be forced to run that as an option or lose but I know spect defenders will cling onto anything possible so i'm just going to say look at the typing and ability and movepool, and reconsider your thoughts. Next up tp blissey for pp stall, some spects run disable which beats this set of choice and literally only stall/some semi stalls can even run blissey so it is almost not even an argument because its so hyper specific. Next mandibuzz, outclassed by skarm and corv and zapdos in terms of defogging and is outclassed as a defensive option comp to the likes of skarm and corv the only positive mandi has is not being 2 hit ko'ed by ace but it can just be turned on or gunk poisoned so it doesn't really matter, you also like lose to bulky sub wisp lol(don't tell me to run attack on mandibuzz please). Next up Tyranitar, shit mon outside of sand teams and even sand teams rn arent that great again the only viable mons that can defensively manage spect are too hyper specific. Ok what are our offensive options? Dragapult and fucking exploud, again you can safely get in pult with things like tp blissey or tp p2 as well as turn mandi but now you are running multiple mons for specifically 1 mon, and non specs pult cant even ohko spect anyways. last note spdef pex is actually so much worse comp to defensive and even then u can be spdef dropped i cannot believe someone can misconstrue a pokemon's defensive options so badly to believe that people would willingly use these bad mons/sets like spdef hydrei not for spect but because they are good or maybe people believe that running bad mons is a good thing for 1 specific pokemon idk you tell me. It makes me sad I even have to explain why spect's defensive options are so bad and why the fact that even tho it has counters(which are a joke) it shouldnt be a factor in its placement in the tier or not, i really hope people educate more on restrictiveness in the competitive scene because this is borderline terrifying to see on a forum, have a good evening.

edit:at this rate we should just bring back zygarde and make everyone just use clef, no biggie!

 

[AquaVanilla]

Spectrier has a solid amount of checks, it's just hard to counter, but those checks are reliable for the most part.
is a very solid way of beating it, because at the very least it is able to stop any form of snowball choice sets have going, and teleport can help get in something like dragapult against the more dangerous sub sets.
works quite well, beating choice sets reliably and only really having difficulty with phys.def invested wisp sub, and it can uturn into speed control if that comes up.
is great at taking it on especially with rest, and can provide drill and other sand sweepers with the speed control to revenge it.
walls pretty much every set and move, and is a solid breaker overall. Wish support can help prevent the speed it gets worn down at as well.

Random normal types such as exploud and porygon2, as well as most dark types can wall it for the most part, and ideally you can keep them around long enough since it doesn't have the best of ways to hit them naturally. Specs hex hurts darks, but they can take it.

among other random special pivots can status it/knock it/chip it and wear it down over time, and these can act as great pivots to scarf sets as well as just ways to slow it down from winning.

forms of speed control or priority such as scarf lando-t, pult, and sucker punch ace can force it out and paired with special checks on a standard balance team it can work quite well.

Blissey cant do anything to spectrier and it makes spectrier setup fodder on it, spectrier also runs dark pulse for it.
Tyranitar is constantly getting chipped every game its in, spectrier sets up wisp on it. Rest ttar isnt a good check also, it makes ttar passive and spectrier sets up cm/nasty plot on you.

Obstagoon isnt a great check, its chipped every turn by wisp, rocks and mons like chomp, ferrothorn, toxapex give it rocky helm, rough skin recoil. Obstagoon lacks any sort of viable recovery.
Exploud and porygon2 cant do much, exploud is also chipped every game its in, as for porygon its calm mind setup fodder. Also using niche normals in OU because of this horse means its broken. :)

Most spdef walls lack recovery, heatran is chipped constantly every time its brought into spectrier and its calm mind bait also status moves like para really screws up heatran. Spectrier can also pp stall magma storm.
Magearna really cant do anything also. Yes, spectrier doesnt wanna come in but magearna is crippled by status moves and it can make magearna setup bait also mag also doesnt have viable recovery moves.
Same thing goes to ferrothorn, it cant do much.

Spectrier is making unusable sets and moves into OU just to even have a chance for it.

First of all, sucker punch cinderace is a huge 50/50, spectrier can either sub or wisp at you, and you are totally screwed. Sucker punch ace is only really meant to revenge killed choice locked spectriers.

Lando has no recovery as a scarfer, its chipped and crippled by wisp when it enters on spectrier and it now remains useless.

Pult is the only i can agree with you.;-; However pult cant switch in and has to be brought in by a slow pivot.

moltres galar is heat guys but yall serious cannot be bringing it up as a serious check lmao

 

[BT89]

I’ll give my opinions on the dumb horse. Spectrier has been seen by many as a top tier meta defining threat that poses a serious threat to teambuilding. And I agree.

Spectrier has very few (if any) reliable checks to all sets, and constantly puts pressure on teambuilding. Peoples points for keeping it involve its “bad” movepool, to which I disagree. These people tend to undervalue the large amount of very good support moves Spectrier gets and utilizes to beat its checks. It’s a constant threat that needs to be checked on any team that wants to be viable, or your team gets automatically 6-0ed. Spec answers have to be put on teams, or you lose, and that isn’t healthy at all.

So are there any checks?

Yes, there is some, but Spec has counterplay against them.

The mighty Blissey can tank basically all of Spectrier’s hits and abuse it being stuck with Choice Specs. However, Spectrier can Taunt the Blissey, allowing it to put up Substitute with ease on non-Choice sets, while Blissey cannot do anything besides watch Spectrier pile up the Calm Minds.

Hydreigon is one of the few reliable checks in my opinion, since with Special Defense investment, it tanks all of Spec’s hits and can utilize Snarl to hinder Spec. However, this set has little use outside of checking Spectrier, which shows how Spectrier is making unviable sets work.

This thing is barely a check. It loses hard to Sub Disable, an increasingly common set, which is detrimental for its checking capabilities. It can pull off a RestTalk set, but I find that to be gimmicky. It also gets chipped WAY too hard to operate as a check.

This is the other semi-reliable check in my opinion. Rest TTar can shrug off status while walling Spectrier. However, Spectrier still chips it continuously, and can easily abuse Rest.

This is an obviously a fake check. Mandibuzz loses badly to a lot of Sub sets, mainly Wisp and Disable.

Also a fake check, it relies a ton on 50/50s to check Spectrier, which can use Cinderace as set-up fodder, as it can either Calm Mind/Nasty Plot or Wisp the Cinderace. Sure the Cinderace can pivot out, but once Spectrier gets the boosts, you could say game over.

These three perfectly represent the statement “Normals beat Spectrier”. These otherwise bad Pokémon can work as semi-checks to Spectrier, but they lack use outside of heat teams. These 3 have been gaining usage since Spectrier was found to be broken, which perfectly shows the pressure this thing has on building

This is not a check. Gets chipped with 0 reliable recovery, and gets 2HKOed by NP Wisp Hex.

Overall, Spectrier is a really strong Pokemon in the current OU meta that has very little counterplay against it and forces checks on every team. Because of this, I would advise to lean towards ban, due to its unhealthy impact.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Spectrier? He isn't anywhere near urshifu/Mag/cinderace/zygarde/other bans power level. I don't get it XD

There are at least a few common pokemon that deal with him easily. Its not like ttar, mandibuzz(He learns whirlwind folks! XD), some sp def unaware clef, hydreigon, heatran, and blissey were terrible pokemon before he was common, and they are all either counters or hard checks. Not to all possible sets, but there are tons of pokemon with many sets that can't be countered completely by a single mon(and thats a lot of the reason any of them are viable!). Grassy glide rillaboom checks him hard, sucker punch from cinderace, hell even nidoking can run sucker punch to add some speed control(min 60% against scarf/specs spectrier), Dragapault goes through subs. The list goes on. This seems more like they don't want offensive Mons that influence the meta? Because he doesn't warp it, he's just something you should think about when building a team, but the same can be said for most offensive mons. I think banded rillaboom has a much more warping presence in general. If you dont have a bird , corv, or mandibuzz, banded rillaboom can just destroy a team.

I just think this is stretching to ban a pokemon that's annoying! The argument "He can muscle past his counters with rocks, team support, and status" should be true for all offensive mons, or they wouldn't be played at all.

The issue is, Spectrier can get past those checks anyway. Look at this replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-535656
Mandibuzz and Spectrier are on both sides, and both Spectriers do a number on both Mandibuzz, with KJ's Spectrier managing to defeat stareal's Mandibuzz. Also, Sucker Punch fails if the opponent doesn't attack. RE: Rillaboom, Grass has seven resists (Fire, Flying, Bug, Steel, itself, Poison, and Dragon), whereas Ghost only has one resist (Dark) and one immunity (Normal); Dark and Normal are both weak against Fighting, which is cause for concern, as not only does that mean stacking weaknesses to something like Roadrunner, it also means you're (still) not guaranteed to get the better of Spectrier.

It being hard walled by basically any normal type, being super predictable

Naganadel was predictable in USUM, as it ran Sludge Wave/Fire Blast/Nasty Plot/Draco Meteor. It was still banned because even though you knew what it was gonna do, it was still able to blow Texas-sized holes in teams.

it guaranteed 2hkos spectrier, like 80% damage minimum, and unless you spam substitute, will die to fiery wrath. Galatres forces spectrier out, weakens it considerably HP wise, or straight KOs spectrier. As for rest, lum berries exist, and allow it to keep on the offensive.
its a check in my book, and a damn good one at it.

Are you serious? Because this is a one-time check, and that's assuming you either didn't get statused by anything else or get the berry knocked off beforehand, in which case this becomes a massive momentum drain as Spectrier is free to set up in your face. Speaking of...

+2 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 179-211 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ouch. And this is on the wake-up turn. Also, as you're not running Boots, better keep Stealth Rock off your side of the field at all costs...

 

[BlueLobster]

Ok so this thread's already a dumpster fire but here's more gasoline a quick 2 cents as to why this thing is mega broken:

1: It can break through literally all its checks
It has a set for literally every mon, with the rarer sets like sub np (or even cm) dpulse breaking chansey to the more common sets having ways through the less solid answers (specs can get through hydra and mandi if its wisped, cm can beat mandi too, both of those lose to very little chip, ttar generally wins short term but getting burned sucks for it regardless and its not like it can pursuit trap this gen so its just going to die over a long period of spect switching out due to lack of recovery. There isnt really another good answer but the makeshift ones are all easily worn down and unreliable (obstagoon, whatever random dark or normal the antiban folk hype in the next few pages) or obscure shit literally no one uses (p2, zarude). So yeah I'm not sure why I skimmed over a dracovish comparison above when that thing was broken despite being 1 dimensional and not being able to bust through its checks just bc there were so few of them, when this thing has a similar amount of answers (don't claim it has more bc of shit like obstagoon bc shit like heliolisk wasnt stopping vish being busted) and has enough sets to break through them. Yes it's reliant on having the right set for the scenario, but it's not like other mons haven't been banned in the past despite having this problem for their effects on teambuilding and just winning if it did happen to be the right set (zyg last gen, oras gren).

2: It's insanely difficult to revenge

Not only is it fast as shit, but several of its sets setup behind subs, it can fuck w scarfers via disable (or its own scarf set, which kinda sucks compared to setup but it still exists) and on top of that it snowballs, so makeshift "it can take a hit but cant switch in" type checks are completely useless v it. So if it does manage to get through its checks (which isn't that hard as detailed above), nothing can be done about it. You can claim shit like rilla, pult or a scarfer will revenge but rillas and scarfers just gonna take out its sub and drop and pult can't revenge the cm set.

3: Risk V Reward

Ok so going back to actual gameplay scenarios, there's very little risk associated with the setup sets this thing has. Sub is one of the safest moves to click in the game and is a staple of spects most problematic sets, so its not like you need to outplay to set up. Also, the risk of using its checks for almost anything else is huge bc spect wins with so little chip which it can even get itself, generally forcing you into subpar plays just by existing so it doesn't steamroll you in a few turns. Not only is spect forcing you to use a slot on what is likely a mediocre choice for your team, it forces you to use it mediocrely too since like 30% chip means its best checks are no longer checking it. Spect fucks with the general risk/reward of the game in such an unhealthy way that I don't see how it can exist in this tier while our main goal is to create a balanced meta.

I’m going to ask politely: why is this a suspect test when it's so egregious? I’m genuinely curious, I seriously doubt this is going to be less than 88% pro ban sicne this is clearly such low hanging fruit and just a monumental a waste of time. I’m not even mad anymore i expect this

Also this, so much this, no ones going to be sat here genuinely wondering if this is off in 2 weeks or not, I'm honestly surpised ppl are reading this thread bc the outcome is just so obvious, can we start quickbanning obvious tests like this so I don't feel compelled to waste my time with a disengaged post like this one.

So ye, get this thing outta here

 

[KamenOH]

Are you serious? Because this is a one-time check, and that's assuming you either didn't get statused by anything else or get the berry knocked off beforehand, in which case this becomes a massive momentum drain as Spectrier is free to set up in your face.

genuine question
how is Galatres a set up bait
assuming no item due to lack of lum, spectrier is forced to either will o wisp if it has it, or use shadow ball
as stated prior, a galarian moltres is more than capable of living two hexes, and can utilize fiery wrath for massive damage, guaranteed breaking sub, or leaving it low enough that it cannot sub again
it is forced to switch or sub if it wants to live, and since stealth rocks might as well be up on my side theyre so omnipresent, what says they arent up on Twinkle Hooves' side either?
There wont be a perfect check. It would be a counter if it was. Even still, i find it commendable that people are willing to not blindly hate, but rather innovate.

Also yeah with how the mood is souring here Thunder may just be on to something. If most of the community sees it as broken why even suspect test it?

 

[Baloor]

man i cant with this thread lmao some of these takes are fucking crazy, like I get being anti ban means you have to be more vocal but there is some insane stretching cause; "big post = im smarter". every anti ban post ive read completely misses the point of the suspect, very reminiscent of dracovish in the sense of it being broken happens in the builder at not in the game (however sometimes spect can be fucking absurd in game as well).

instead of quoting every single thing of why x person who is anti-ban is wrong, im just going to respond to the main points here;

"Spectrier is nowhere as strong as past bans, and potential future bans"

this is a not a valid argument against a ban. the problem with spect isnt its initial strength, its the restrictions it points on team building. Even if these was a valid point to bring up, its still wrong, spect is very strong out the gate and can very easily snowball unless youre over-prepped for it.

"Spectrier has a variety of checks in the builder"

This statement alone is a pure hypothetical as it really generalizes everything about how spect works. These so-called checks usually only deal with 1-2 sets and still have the possibility to lose. Instead of explaining in a general sense I need to run down the popular checks quick that are ou prominent.

Good checks: Hydreigon (best check to spect right now, snarl is seeing usage to really annoy spect but its very gimmicky) , Tyranitar (fairly solid but needs rest to be consistent and spect can really abuse those rest turns)
Decent checks: Mandibuzz (needs knock + foul play to be reliable and still loses sometimes, becomes a momentum sink without u-turn and is overall a poor mon, no im not running fucking whirlwind on this), Blissey (this is basically a 50/50 if you win unless you have teleport, which youd need something additional in the back for spect like Dragapult, you are basically set up fodder if youre using just blissey and theres even sets that beat this fat shit so), Dragapult (can revenge kill but cant come in safely unless you have something like blissey), Unaware Clefable (i actually dont mind this, but it loses to some sets still)
Bad Checks: Obstagoon (this thing kills itself before it can even be used as a "check" in game, if you run rest talk you are an actual geek)

Anything else not listed (stuff like exploud, p2, zarude) despite being heat, are likely unmons and should not be seeing consistent usage in the tier. You shouldnt have to use shit mons or make mons shit just to check something. If spect goes, these will likely see even less usage then theyre already seeing as checking spect is the extent of their niche.

Also just because something can sometimes revenge kill spect doesnt mean its a consistent check, please stop getting those confused cause sucker punch ace as your only answer to spect is very bad

"Spectrier is walled by normal types"

ok lol, the whole like, four of them? all of which are basically set up fodder

"Scarfers beat Spectrier"

again, no. like I already said, just because something can revenge kill spect sometimes does not mean its a reliable check (spect has none anyways). lots of the posts like this seem to forget this thing runs sub about 75% of the time lol

very small post but like these statements are absurd man, how are you guys making four paragraph long posts for things that can disproved in one liners lol.

Spectrier restricts teams to a very small amount of viable defensive structures (pivot blissey/mandibuzz+dragapult, heatran+hydreigon or ttar sand as the most notable/viable imo) in a way that more balanced offensive pokemon are unable to do. I don't think either specs or subCM are broken sets in a vacuum, and are fairly tolerable if prepared for; but the necessity for preparing for them, and the limited way that teams can adequately prepare for both.

if people are still struggling to understand why this test is even HAPPENING (not why spect is broken) this quote should explain it more than enough. please stop posting your "well spect isnt as strong as gear, shifu or ace so why are we testing it" posts.

edit: moltres galar is heat guys but yall cannot be bringing it up as a serious check lmao

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

genuine question
how is Galatres a set up bait
assuming no item due to lack of lum, spectrier is forced to either will o wisp if it has it, or use shadow ball
as stated prior, a galarian moltres is more than capable of living two hexes, and can utilize fiery wrath for massive damage, guaranteed breaking sub, or leaving it low enough that it cannot sub again
it is forced to switch or sub if it wants to live, and since stealth rocks might as well be up on my side theyre so omnipresent, what says they arent up on Twinkle Hooves' side either?
There wont be a perfect check. It would be a counter if it was. Even still, i find it commendable that people are willing to not blindly hate, but rather innovate.

Also yeah with how the mood is souring here Thunder may just be on to something. If most of the community sees it as broken why even suspect test it?

Because the moment you have to click Rest (which I frankly find to be a questionable use of a move slot on Galartres; what are you willing to give up for it?), you lose all momentum. Unless you're willing to give up ANOTHER move slot for Sleep Talk, which is not reliable. And TBF, if I have to rely on something with its only recovery as Rest, which is super easy to take advantage of, to try to check something else, that's the point where I start thinking we're dealing with some broken shit.

 

[AquaVanilla]

This thread is mad cancer to read at especially the ones where people are saying spectrier are walled by every normal and dark type

"moltres galar is heat guys but yall cannot be bringing it up as a serious check"-Baloor 2021

Like seriously i dont know what u guys are smoking, but saying spectrier being walled by normal and dark types are fucking stupid and are a disgrace.
Have u ever consider playing OU btw?

NORMALS
seriously, this mon? This mon is legit ranked in the VR because of this stupid horse, u dont find that stupid?
using unviable normals to check a ghost horse is super problematic and you can easily tell its broken. Exploud legit has no viable recovery and is cripped by wisp, rocks everytime it comes in. Spectrier laughs at you when u are taking chip damage

you guys have finally lost it, this mon is no check, thats all im saying.

its walled, cant do shit. Blissey runnng sball makes it super passive asf, and even with sball, disable fucks it up and it sets up on it.

DARK TYPES

u see this mon? this mon legit loses to cm wisp hex set, snarl loses to it, double dark loses to it, Mandibuzz is legit a shit mon at checking this mon and in general mandibuz is legit garbage.

Spectrier has legit made this mon run a trash unviable spdef set just for it. Not to mention hydra gets way to pressured by spectrier, wisp and rocks can cripple it down. Not to mention, Hydra loses to specs hex. DONT ever run this unviable set.


this mon gets crippled way to EASILY in a game, rest ttar sucks and it still loses to spectrier, ttar also gets crippled by other things in a game like uturn, volt etc since it has no recovery.


YET another mon with no recovery, very nice guys using a wallbreaker that loses like 20% hp from rocks, wisp each time its in

Spectrier legit fucking restricts team building to much to the point where u gotta run unviable normal types and dark types every fucking team. Seriously bro whatever you are smoking, you better give me some of that shit for my brain cells to die down.
Sorry for the aggressive post, just wanted to prove a point.

Also spectrier forces unviable sets ;/
Thank you :)

 

[Cabneet]

This thread is mad cancer to read at especially the ones where people are saying spectrier are walled by every normal and dark type

"moltres galar is heat guys but yall cannot be bringing it up as a serious check"-Baloor 2021

Like seriously i dont know what u guys are smoking, but saying spectrier being walled by normal and dark types are fucking stupid and are a disgrace.
Have u ever consider playing OU btw?

NORMALS
seriously, this mon? This mon is legit ranked in the VR because of this stupid horse, u dont find that stupid?
using unviable normals to check a ghost horse is super problematic and you can easily tell its broken. Exploud legit has no viable recovery and is cripped by wisp, rocks everytime it comes in. Spectrier laughs at you when u are taking chip damage

you guys have finally lost it, this mon is no check, thats all im saying.

its walled, cant do shit. Blissey runnng sball makes it super passive asf, and even with sball, disable fucks it up and it sets up on it.

DARK TYPES

u see this mon? this mon legit loses to cm wisp hex set, snarl loses to it, double dark loses to it, Mandibuzz is legit a shit mon at checking this mon and in general mandibuz is legit garbage.

Spectrier has legit made this mon run a trash unviable spdef set just for it. Not to mention hydra gets way to pressured by spectrier, wisp and rocks can cripple it down. Not to mention, Hydra loses to specs hex. DONT ever run this unviable set.


this mon gets crippled way to EASILY in a game, rest ttar sucks and it still loses to spectrier, ttar also gets crippled by other things in a game like uturn, volt etc since it has no recovery.


YET another mon with no recovery, very nice guys using a wallbreaker that loses like 20% hp from rocks, wisp each time its in

Spectrier legit fucking restricts team building to much to the point where u gotta run unviable normal types and dark types every fucking team. Seriously bro whatever you are smoking, you better give me some of that shit for my brain cells to die down.
Sorry for the aggressive post, just wanted to prove a point.

Also spectrier forces unviable sets ;/
Thank you :)

I understand this man's frustration.
This happens every suspect. 7/8ths of the anti-ban sentiment are insulting insinuations that we just haven't explored the meta enough while throwing a bunch of garbage at us that forces us to slow down and seriously patronize these people by explaining why each suggestion won't work.
Then they ignore that and spam "just bring mandibuzz lol" some more.
The dmax suspects were basically the same story.