Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 9 - Old Town Road

[Lando-San]

Keeping it short, If I get reqs, i'm going to vote BAN. It just forces you to run a Pokemon from a select set of mons and/or suboptimal sets to actually being able to deal with it; and even with that, you still can lose to it, so, the pressure that it puts on building is absurd. For example, I usually play with sand teams, and after losing some games to it with the classic Tyranitar set, i resorted to run Crunch+Rest Tyranitar to actually being able to deal with at cost of that precious two slots because it really wants to run SR, Rock Blast and Earthquake with last slot being Toxic, Thunder Wave or even Ice Beam to lure Landorus-T for Exca/Zolt [And in the meta without Spectrier, I would run Hippo 100% of time because it can deal with Cinderace and Magearna to an extent, freeing a bit slots].
Without derailing, I think that having to run such a bad set or mons to actually have a decent shot to handle it is what makes, in my opinion, ban-worthy.

Thanks for reading and good luck in your games ^^

 

[Tzolkin]

So the thing that bothers me when talking about the sheer power of Spectrier in general is this. It's not like it is the first super strong Ghost type we have ever seen. Blace is stronger and packs a secondary STAB and can run most sets Spectrier can (Sub CM, Scarf, Specs) and also has an arguably better ability (can get speed boost as well). Yet no one has ever complained that it is unwallable or broken. And that is exeactly what people here are suggesting. They are saying that Spectrier is the strongest thing we have ever seen in this metagame and that it mandates dark/normal types in order to be beaten while realistically a large portion of defensive backbones can handle it if played cautiously. And the thing is due to its lack of offensive versatility all sets have similar counters and even the setup sweeper set can only run 2 free moves (1 atacking+1 utility apart from sub and set up) which means it simply cannot run taunt and wisp and disable and dark pulse only for blissey (which is a garbage strategy anyways and is only used by theorymoners for arguments here) and mud shot for Heatran etc. Those sets are super matchup reliant and are in a real game much less effective than Scarf or Specs which are either immediate strong wallbreakers or are super fast revenge killers. So here we come to the conclusion that it really isn't Spectrier's raw power or sheer verstatility that is broken. So the only thing left is its speed which I agree is very high but for the past 2 gens most revenge killers/scarfers are way above 100 speed and while not every team has to run one, every solid team should have some speed control - smt faster than 130 speed or at least priority. All in all, if i do get reqs i will vote NO BAN, because all things considered the meta has more than enough ways of adapting to it so unless someone can convince me that Scarf/Specs sets are broken (which are IMO the only consistent sets it has) i just don't see it being overwhelming.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

So the thing that bothers me when talking about the sheer power of Spectrier in general is this. It's not like it is the first super strong Ghost type we have ever seen. Blace is stronger and packs a secondary STAB and can run most sets Spectrier can (Sub CM, Scarf, Specs) and also has an arguably better ability (can get speed boost as well). Yet no one has ever complained that it is unwallable or broken. And that is exeactly what people here are suggesting. They are saying that Spectrier is the strongest thing we have ever seen in this metagame and that it mandates dark/normal types in order to be beaten while realistically a large portion of defensive backbones can handle it if played cautiously. And the thing is due to its lack of offensive versatility all sets have similar counters and even the setup sweeper set can only run 2 free moves (1 atacking+1 utility apart from sub and set up) which means it simply cannot run taunt and wisp and disable and dark pulse only for blissey (which is a garbage strategy anyways and is only used by theorymoners for arguments here) and mud shot for Heatran etc. Those sets are super matchup reliant and are in a real game much less effective than Scarf or Specs which are either immediate strong wallbreakers or are super fast revenge killers. So here we come to the conclusion that it really isn't Spectrier's raw power or sheer verstatility that is broken. So the only thing left is its speed which I agree is very high but for the past 2 gens most revenge killers/scarfers are way above 100 speed and while not every team has to run one, every solid team should have some speed control - smt faster than 130 speed or at least priority. All in all, if i do get reqs i will vote NO BAN, because all things considered the meta has more than enough ways of adapting to it so unless someone can convince me that Scarf/Specs sets are broken (which are IMO the only consistent sets it has) i just don't see it being overwhelming.

I'm sorry... wh-what?

You realize a Pokemon (any Pokemon) is a combination of traits, right? Yes, Spectrier may slightly less raw power than Blacephalon (though even that's debatable due to its exclusive access to Nasty Plot and Hex) but it also has significantly more speed and bulk. Blacephalon's crushing power is held back by it being relatively easy to check offensively. Spectrier is much harder to deal with offensively.

I may not be qualified to properly take part in the overall discussion but the logic of "there are Pokemon who are obscenely strong and not broken, and Pokemon who are obscenely fast and not broken, therefore a Pokemon who is both obscenely strong and obscenely fast must also not be broken" is so mind-bogglingly stupid that I had to comment.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

So the thing that bothers me when talking about the sheer power of Spectrier in general is this. It's not like it is the first super strong Ghost type we have ever seen. Blace is stronger and packs a secondary STAB and can run most sets Spectrier can (Sub CM, Scarf, Specs) and also has an arguably better ability (can get speed boost as well). Yet no one has ever complained that it is unwallable or broken. And that is exeactly what people here are suggesting. They are saying that Spectrier is the strongest thing we have ever seen in this metagame and that it mandates dark/normal types in order to be beaten while realistically a large portion of defensive backbones can handle it if played cautiously. And the thing is due to its lack of offensive versatility all sets have similar counters and even the setup sweeper set can only run 2 free moves (1 atacking+1 utility apart from sub and set up) which means it simply cannot run taunt and wisp and disable and dark pulse only for blissey (which is a garbage strategy anyways and is only used by theorymoners for arguments here) and mud shot for Heatran etc. Those sets are super matchup reliant and are in a real game much less effective than Scarf or Specs which are either immediate strong wallbreakers or are super fast revenge killers. So here we come to the conclusion that it really isn't Spectrier's raw power or sheer verstatility that is broken. So the only thing left is its speed which I agree is very high but for the past 2 gens most revenge killers/scarfers are way above 100 speed and while not every team has to run one, every solid team should have some speed control - smt faster than 130 speed or at least priority. All in all, if i do get reqs i will vote NO BAN, because all things considered the meta has more than enough ways of adapting to it so unless someone can convince me that Scarf/Specs sets are broken (which are IMO the only consistent sets it has) i just don't see it being overwhelming.

Blacephalon is a lot slower than Spectrier (107 base speed vs Spectrier's 130), it's not as bulky (53/53/79 HP/Def/SpDef vs Spectrier's 100/60/80), and it's weak to Stealth Rocks to boot. All this for only 6 points more special attack. That's not exactly a fair trade, to put it lightly. In addition, as Blacephalon's speed is far lower than its special attack, you'd have to run a speed increasing nature AND put at most 20 EVs into special attack for Beast Boost to boost its speed.

 

[CanineIllusionist]

I got somewhat sniped but I feel my point is different enough to still go ahead and share.

snip

I'm not sure where I stand on DNB/Ban yet myself, but the pro-ban arguments often rely on the fact that Spectrier doesn't need coverage to make progress - and if you accept this to be true, then things like Blacephalon and Gengar as similar alternatives don't actually gain much of an advantage from their dual typings. Ghost is strong enough on it's own in the current state of things, so the dual typing instead adds weaknesses and offensive counterplay that can be used effectively to stop Blacephalon that cannot stop Spectrier.

Fire for your specific Blacephalon example adds a nasty Stealth Rock weakness, and an vulnerability to Ground and Water - which I don't think is an exaggeration are some of the best types in Pokémon period, but especially in a pivot heavy metagame with Landorus, Toxapex, and all the Slowtwins running around that is a considerable difference between the function and viability of two surface level very similar Pokémon.
And sure, you can use Heavy Duty Boots but lacking a boosting item is an considerable opportunity cost. Especially for Choice Scarf, with Blacephalon's lower speed compared to Spectrier's.

Gengar may not have a Stealth Rock weakness but it does have weakness to Ground and Psychic and it's still a whopping 20 points slower than Spectrier. Psychic Terrain and Future Sight are much more threatening to Gengar than they are Spectrier.

Aegislash and Dragapult aren't exactly 1:1 slottable to "speedy special ghost" role so comparisons there are eh

edit: oh noo I got double sniped. whoops. ah well.

 

[AquaVanilla]

So the thing that bothers me when talking about the sheer power of Spectrier in general is this. It's not like it is the first super strong Ghost type we have ever seen. Blace is stronger and packs a secondary STAB and can run most sets Spectrier can (Sub CM, Scarf, Specs) and also has an arguably better ability (can get speed boost as well). Yet no one has ever complained that it is unwallable or broken. And that is exeactly what people here are suggesting. They are saying that Spectrier is the strongest thing we have ever seen in this metagame and that it mandates dark/normal types in order to be beaten while realistically a large portion of defensive backbones can handle it if played cautiously. And the thing is due to its lack of offensive versatility all sets have similar counters and even the setup sweeper set can only run 2 free moves (1 atacking+1 utility apart from sub and set up) which means it simply cannot run taunt and wisp and disable and dark pulse only for blissey (which is a garbage strategy anyways and is only used by theorymoners for arguments here) and mud shot for Heatran etc. Those sets are super matchup reliant and are in a real game much less effective than Scarf or Specs which are either immediate strong wallbreakers or are super fast revenge killers. So here we come to the conclusion that it really isn't Spectrier's raw power or sheer verstatility that is broken. So the only thing left is its speed which I agree is very high but for the past 2 gens most revenge killers/scarfers are way above 100 speed and while not every team has to run one, every solid team should have some speed control - smt faster than 130 speed or at least priority. All in all, if i do get reqs i will vote NO BAN, because all things considered the meta has more than enough ways of adapting to it so unless someone can convince me that Scarf/Specs sets are broken (which are IMO the only consistent sets it has) i just don't see it being overwhelming.

i laughed bro

he laughs at you also

 

[Tzolkin]

Still, my argument stands. I never argued Blace is a better mon in general. It is much easier to revenge kill, is much less bulky overall and has SR weakness as others have pointed out. Blace example was only my response to the plethora of pro-ban argument that were based on the fact that Spectrier is unwallable and has 2 good checks while it can beat others easily. If that was true i am sure many would have complained about special Aegislash or Gengar in pre-DLC and if Spectrier gets banned Blace should be the next to follow if they can effortlessly beat defensive backbones like many are suggesting. Sure, its combination of traits might be deemed banworthy, but pro-ban arguments simply shouldn't be based solely on its wallbreaking powers because they after all aren't that unique.

 

[BT89]

I’ll respond to the Galartres “argument”, I guess



The bird loses. Gets chipped hard, and gets beat by Sub Hex. There’s not really much else to it, but I’ll try to add something to nothing.

For that Fiery Wrath destroying Spectrier:

252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 318-374 (86.1 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Yeah, no, that’s not killing unless you get extremely lucky. The worse thing is that Spectrier can set up a Calm Mind with ease while in Substitute.

252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 212-252 (57.4 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So much for it “destroying” Spectrier!

Anyways, Spectrier can Wisp you as you breaks the Sub, and then Hex you because it’s a faster Pokémon. It can also set up against it with Nasty Plot or Calm Mind (depending on set) while in Sub. causing this:

+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 135-159 (42 - 49.5%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

+2 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 179-211 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Yeah, nice check. Good luck being 2HKOed.

I find Moltres-Galar to just not be that good in general, and I cannot find it useful as a Spectrier check.

 

[theotherguytm]

Still, my argument stands. I never argued Blace is a better mon in general. It is much easier to revenge kill, is much less bulky overall and has SR weakness as others have pointed out. Blace example was only my response to the plethora of pro-ban argument that were based on the fact that Spectrier is unwallable and has 2 good checks while it can beat others easily. If that was true i am sure many would have complained about special Aegislash or Gengar in pre-DLC and if Spectrier gets banned Blace should be the next to follow if they can effortlessly beat defensive backbones like many are suggesting. Sure, its combination of traits might be deemed banworthy, but pro-ban arguments simply shouldn't be based solely on its wallbreaking powers because they after all aren't that unique.

Ok, I'll bite.
+2 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 246-289 (80.9 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and burn damage
0- Atk burned Dark type Foul Play vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 76-91 (20.5 - 24.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Here's the benchmark then.

252 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 84-99 (27.6 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+1 20 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Blacephalon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 124-148 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Hahahahaha. Ok, for real the only way Blacephalon breaks Pex is by Tricking it a Choice Scarf and praying to not run out of Shadow Ball PP, or by praying it doesn't have Haze if it's a setup set. So I don't know about you, but Pex seems a pretty solid check.

+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 147-174 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Gengar Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 238-282 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (this set sucks though since Gengar cannot break its counters and burned Foul Play breaks its Sub)
0- Atk burned Dark type Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 79-94 (30.2 - 36%) -- 42.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
So Gengar not only has only base 110 speed, it only having base 130 SpA shows up pretty clearly too. Even fully invested, it can't outdamage standard Spec.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Aegislash has to be Choice-locked to get even close. And outsped by basically the entire game.
Does this summarise nicely for you why Spec is ridiculous? Oh and it outspeeds all of these above Ghosts, which makes it impossible to revenge kill outside priority, scarfers and Dragapult.

 

[Cabneet]

Sure, its combination of traits might be deemed banworthy, but pro-ban arguments simply shouldn't be based solely on its wallbreaking powers.

"I might be wrong but you guys didn't say so exactly how I expected you to."
OK

As for the idea of blaceph/pult/something somehow just doing spectrier's job just as well in its absence, the very idea is laughable. As already given specific examples above, noone else has the combination of immediate breaking power, speed, and varied setup options.

 

[nameless90]

I think that needs to get BANNED.

Summary
Spectrier has a tremendously high special attack with 145 sitting on a base 130, enough to reach 394 points (one more point that Scarfed base-70 Spe pokèmons). Few monsters are naturally faster than this horse at +0.
The weakest point is its Def stat (Knock Off/Crunch?) but a 100 base HP (+WoW) helps to stomach even that hit, especially if the attacker is burned.
Not only that, but it has access to Nasty Plot and Calm Mind with Grim Night that makes it snowball if it gets the first kill. It has few moves, but still enough to run these sets:

• (Sub) Nasty Plot set
• (Sub) Calm Mind set
• (Sub) WoW + Hex set
• Specs set
• Scarf set
• (rarely) Substitute + Taunt/Disable

Although Dark Pulse seems redundant with Shadow Ball, the 20% possibility to flinch the opponent is a thing when it happens.

The "counterplay"department

• With reliable recovery:

It has Roost + Foul Play + Toxic, but it is worn down by Status + Hex, it can't break a Substitute if burned with Foul Play. The access to Roost is huge, but Calm Mind/Nasty Plot can overwhelm this bird. Mandibuzz is prone to be worn down if Heavy-Duty Boots are knocked off because it is weak 2x to SR.
It stops Shadowball spam from the Choice-item sets thanks to its typing, but can't do much in return. Toxic is the best Blissey can do and is blocked by Substitute unless this pink blob drops Seismic Toss for a special attack (which is really unluckily to happen). The sets with Substitute can use Blissey as a set-up bait, especially the Calm Mind variant.
It has access to Roost, so it can check Spectrier well; still, it gets outsped quite easily due to this strange 98 base Spe by a good portion of the metagame. Keep in mind that it has 5 weaknesses, so it gets worn down easily (without having a dedicated check to this dragon) and needs to be at least at 40% to check Specs Spectrier. Despite all these flaws, the access to Levitate makes it the best Spectrier check.

• Without reliable recovery:

good offensive check but it doesn't have reliable recovery and takes damage from all the entry hazards.
read above. Also, it has so many weaknesses that is quite easy to wear it down unless it is able to perform too many DD. WoW really hurts it, so it can't really switch-in carelessly.
good offensive check (and is maybe the only one naturally faster than the horse), but again it has no reliable recovery. It can't recklessly switch-in. It has to be wary of the Choice Scarf-Set, so scouting beforehand is necessary. After a Calm Mind boost, Spectrier can't be OHKOed by Specs Dragapult.
No Roost means that it has to use ChestoRest and, once used the berry, you can use the 2 sleep turn to set-up your Spectrier.

Conclusions
BAN Spectrier because:

1. It restricts teambuilding forcing to run often more that one hard check and most of them have trouble being at full hp when Spectrier appears and most of them are slower;
2. It can beat its supposed checks if the opponent doesn't figure out what set you run and/or if hax occurs in some form (SpD drop from Shadow Ball, flinch from Dark Pulse, utility moves);
3. The combination of SpA + Grim Night + boosting move + Spe makes revengekilling it difficult, not to mention if you run the Scarf set;
4. With a rather spammable STAB it is able to snowball out of control between Grim Night and SpA-boosting item.

 

[Spoontech]

Naganadel was predictable in USUM, as it ran Sludge Wave/Fire Blast/Nasty Plot/Draco Meteor. It was still banned because even though you knew what it was gonna do, it was still able to blow Texas-sized holes in teams.

One big difference though, Naganadel's coverage was insane. Spectriers entire special movepool excists of Hex, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, Hyper Beam, Sift, Round, Snarl, Mud Slap and Uproar. Of those, only Hex/Shadow ball and very maybe Dark Pulse, Hyper Beam (never seen it though) and Mud Slap have viability. Hex and Shadow ball are super spammable, but can't touch normals, Dark Pulse is mainly there to try and beat non-cm Shadow Ball Blissey, and Mud Slap is to do some damage to ground weak mons but the move itself won't get you any KO's unless you're at +6 but by allowing that to happen you kind of deserve to get swept in the first place. WoW is a better move than most of its special movepool.

Also we can't pretend like Ghost types haven't been menacing Gen 8 OU all generation long. Most teams will have ways to counter ghosts already, some of which Spectrier beats but definately not all. I don't feel it restricts teambuilding that much considering most teams will already require a way to beat ghosts effectively.

 

[658Greninja]

One big difference though, Naganadel's coverage was insane. Spectriers entire special movepool excists of Hex, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, Hyper Beam, Sift, Round, Snarl, Mud Slap and Uproar. Of those, only Hex/Shadow ball and very maybe Dark Pulse, Hyper Beam (never seen it though) and Mud Slap have viability. Hex and Shadow ball are super spammable, but can't touch normals, Dark Pulse is mainly there to try and beat non-cm Shadow Ball Blissey, and Mud Slap is to do some damage to ground weak mons but the move itself won't get you any KO's unless you're at +6 but by allowing that to happen you kind of deserve to get swept in the first place. WoW is a better move than most of its special movepool.

Also we can't pretend like Ghost types haven't been menacing Gen 8 OU all generation long. Most teams will have ways to counter ghosts already, some of which Spectrier beats but definately not all. I don't feel it restricts teambuilding that much considering most teams will already require a way to beat ghosts effectively.

Spectrier doesn’t need to blow past normal types if it already beats most of them behind the sub, or with Sub-Disable sets. We also only have two viable normal types in Blissey and Goon, the rest are mostly fringe picks. Blissey can’t beat it if its CM + Dark Pulse or if it’s pp gets too low in the long game. Considering all the shit Blissey has to deal with, it’s not gonna have full pp when Spect comes in most of the time.

Before I revaluate the differences between Spectrier and other ghosts, lets look at what Spectrier has going for it.

-Sky high SpA and Speed
-Decent bulk for an offensive threat
-Snowballing ability

Now let’s see the other ghosts starting with Aegislash.

Aegislash has only 5 points less SpA, and cause it can run modest it is actually stronger than Spect. It also directly beats Ttar and Blissey thx to Close Combat. However Aegislash is much slower than it, can’t snowball, and is frailer than Spect in Blade form.

Blacephalon is stronger than Spectrier, has Trick to cripple Blissey and Hydreigon, has fire stab to hiy normal types, and even has a snowballing ability. Unlike Spect, Blace is outpaced by Kart, Latios, Ace, and Torn, is taking 25% if it switches into rocks, and is frailer than Spectrier.

Dragapult is way faster than Spectrier and has U-Turn, but Pult’s base 100 SpA is pitiful compared to Spectrier’s monsterous 145 SpA. It also can’t snowball in the same league as Spect.

Gengar not only has NP, but it can even blow past Blissey, Ttar, and Hydreigon with Focus Blast, but it doesn’t have the same sky high SpA and Speed as Spectrier, nor it’s bulk or snowballing potential. It also has a harder time setting up due to not being able to bluff Choice Specs.

All of these have one or two of Spectrier’s biggest attributes, but not all three of them. So comparing the other ghost types to the demon horse is like comparing a regular apple to the tastiest able in the farm.

I would like to see a ban to Spectrier due to it’s restricting nature in the metagame and other attributes mentioned before and a million times.

 

[Faless__]

I never argued Blace is a better mon in general. It is much easier to revenge kill, is much less bulky overall and has SR weakness as others have pointed out. Blace example was only my response to the plethora of pro-ban argument that were based on the fact that Spectrier is unwallable and has 2 good checks while it can beat others easily.

It's not based solely on that fact, Spectrier is a pain to revenge kill, as most of the time it'll find a way to hide behind a substitute, has longevity if it's a sub + leftovers set and besides it can power through its checks long term and normals can do nothing to it, except obstagoon, which gets easily chipped and relies on switcherooing its flame orb for leftovers or boots to either not take rocks damage or making the burn damage less of a burden on it.
Blacephalon running a sub set is kind of a joke if it's not boots since you're taking chip from hazards and basically being vulnerable to the recently rising blissey + pult teams that can just teleport into Pult easily and force you out. If you have boots that's 25% of your health wasted, if you have leftovers which why would you, it's around 37%. factoring in leftovers recovery. Blacephalon also struggles against toxapex in sub sets as it doesn't even need knock to break sub, so blacephalon needs to get three calm minds up to make pex not break sub.
In short, saying that people just want spectrier banned because it's unwallable is just looking at one side of the argument and ignoring that this mon has ridicoulus longevity and can long term power through its checks easily, and if i get reqs I'll be voting to ban it from the tier.

 

[Vatn]

Don't really have an opinion on whether or not Spectrier should be banned. There is clear counterplay against the mon, as it's generally pretty easy to bring in a pivot and safely bring in another mon that can threaten out Spectrier. However, the amount of mons able to pivot in on Spectrier are pretty limited, and some of them are of dubious quality, as others have already stated. Just to go over the list of pivots quickly:

Can switch in and easily beat Specs and Scarf Spectrier sets. If Spectrier is instead of the setup variety, Blissey can simply use Teleport to safely switch in a mon that can beat Spectrier through the substitute.

Tyranitar's been discussed a lot in this thread, don't think I have to reexplain why this does pretty well against Spectrier.

Same case as Blissey, Hydriegon beats Specs and Scarf sets but folds against setup Spectrier sets. Like Blissey, Hydriegon can pivot out with U-Turn to a mon that can beat Spectrier behind the substitute, but running U-Turnon Hydriegon solely to pivot out against Spectrier specifically feels pretty garbage.

Similar story to Hydriegon. Needs to run U-Turn to pivot out against setup Spectrier sets, or specifically run both Knock Off and Foul Play just to beat Disable sets.

Zarude should be able to beat most Spectrier sets, plain and simple.

Already been discussed as an alright switch in to Spectrier. While Spectrier is liable to just switch out, Obstagoon can use Parting Shot to maintain momentum.

Curse Snorlax beats every Spectrier set, but it comes at the cost of using Curse Snorlax in Gen8 OU.

Porygon2 has already been discussed in-depth, not hard to see why it's a solid check to Spectrier.

These mons are the next best defensive answers to Spectrier, and it just so happens that all of them suck.

Mons that can easily force out a setup Spectrier that's behind a substitute are much more limited.

Beats Spectrier behind the sub thanks to Infiltrator, and can either directly switch in predicting the substitute or be pivoted in by one of the mons above.

Same deal as Dragapult, but with a much worse mon. Scarf + Trick is cool, for what it's worth.

Scarf Noivern can use Switcheroo to stop Spectrier behind the sub after being pivoted in. Still a terrible mon in the meta.

Surprised Whimsicott isn't used more honestly. Prankster + Encore shuts down Spectrier behind the sub, and just by existing makes Spectrier hesitant to setup. Whimsicott can then just pivot out with U-Turn. This thing isn't even that bad against other matchups, actually a pretty cool mon.

Same deal as Whimsicott, but worse mons in the meta. For what it's worth, Accelgor has Spikes + Recover, and Liepard has priority Thunder Wave.

Of all the mons listed, probably less than half of them are actually good mons in the meta, so I can definitely see the argument of Spectrier being way too restrictive in teambuilding. The fact that the player would either need to run a set deemed as suboptimal (Rest Tyranitar) or run two specific mons to check every potential set of Spectrier feels pretty trash.

 

[OvertoneSeries]

• Without reliable recovery:

read above with the only difference that takes damage only from SR.

Slight correction: Hydreigon has access to Roost. It's very good.

 

[Faless__]

Same case as Blissey, Hydriegon beats Specs and Scarf sets but folds against setup Spectrier sets. Like Blissey, Hydriegon can pivot out with U-Turn to a mon that can beat Spectrier behind the substitute, but running U-Turnon Hydriegon solely to pivot out against Spectrier specifically feels pretty garbage.

I'd say it's pretty much the opposite ignoring Scarf which is super easy to check, but nowadays bulky Defog + Roost Hydreigons have started using Snarl to hit Spectrier behind the substitute and nullify its Calm Mind boosts or weaken its Nasty Plot boosts, and even though Drei is a good switchin against Specs Shadow Balls as he can Roost them off, if Spectrier decides to click Will-O-Wisp on the switch then next time the Hydreigon user will have to enter a 50/50 where they'll have to switch into something that can absorb the Hex that spectrier is likely firing and threaten it out, or go to Hydreigon predicting a Shadow Ball, giving the Spectrier user a huge advantage. That's if Hydreigon doesn't have a huge amount of Special Defense investment that helps it to overcome this flaw, concretely 252 HP EVs and 168 or higher Special Defense EVs with a boosting nature, making it slower against other threats and it'll only be able to be faster than Modest Heatran, so it's a really big sacrifice to make because you hate Nidoking, Utility Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele and Zapdos outrunning you.

 

[cfdu1202]

(I would have liked Magearna to be suspected first since she is way more difficult to face in an actual battle than Spectrier. Also she can take advantage of every single one of Spectrier's check and I'd argue she is more of a problem even teambuilding-wise.)

This said, I'm of the opinion that Spectrier is too much for the OU metagame. It polarizes the metagame in quite an unhealthy extent; while any metagame must adapt to a top-tier mon such as Spectrier, the fact that SpDef Hydreigon, double dark move Mandibuzz, Obstagoon and Exploud exist solely to deal with Spectrier is a problem, because they become way less effective if the opponent doesn't have Spectrier and you more often than not wish you had another mon or moveset instead. I won't go into the other extreme like some people are doing here and say that Rest SpDef Tar is not a great check because it is lmao, but it is undeniable that the pressure that Spectrier exerts is a bit too much.

While Spectrier generally lacks immediate power (not Specs) and you can actually trade health with him with most mons, a well-played Spectrier with a team that supports him is extremely hard to deal with; it is a nightmare to face status spreading teams with a Hex Spectrier waiting in the back , not to mention Spectrier makes use of wisp very well. It's also not that hard to find a switch-in opportunity early-mid game unlike other set-up sweepers, because Spectrier forces very linear plays once in the field. Spectrier can easily finds itself in a position where it can get the +1 boost and snowball the game, so the opponent must switch to their Spectrier check which you can easily take advantage of. This is the second reason why Spectrier needs to be banned, as you can control the game from turn 1 by forcing your opponent to keep their check healthy and thus forcing predictable plays. None of the other mons in OU does this to such an extent.

 

[SilverVictini]

While not as all encompassing as some of the previous posts are, I wanted to bring up a very specific set.

Spectrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Disable
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball / Hex

(The EVs are just filler, run whatever you want)

With this set, you can completely shut down many "checks" to Spec, as well as most walls/pivots.
For those who don't know, this set utilizes Disable + Taunt in order to stop walls from doing anything and get free Substitutes and/or boosts. Taunt is able to deny status moves like Whirlwind, Recover, and Teleport, and Disable is then used to block the attacking move next used to break the Sub. This works especially well against walls, which typically carry 3 status moves + 1 attacking move to bypass Taunt, or multiple weak moves with only 1 being able to break the Sub (ie. Pex). If you're able to disable all 4 moves using this method, the opposing wall is forced to switch out, giving you either a free Substitute or attack on switch. It is important to note that this set can still get boosts through Grim Neigh and sweep that way. If running Hex, status support is appreciated (Burn being especially effective).

Now, for some targets. Keep in mind that there are sets/mons I don't mention here, this is just a list of some of them:
One of the main draws of this set is that it completely shuts down Shadow Ball & Seismic Toss variants of Blissey that would otherwise wall the other sets. After Taunt + Disable, they will be forced to Struggle. The same can be said for most .
Although it may require some scouting, any Mandibuzz outside of Knock Off + Foul Play variants are also beaten using this set.
Since most Obstagoon run Knock Off + Close Combat + Facade as the 3 attacking moves, they will be unable to damage the Substitute once Knock Off is disabled, meaning that they have to switch or be slowly chipped down by burn damage.
All of these common walls and more are both shut down by this set and used to gain boosts. However, certain variants like Knock Off + Gyro Ball Ferrothorn can beat it, so be sure to scout for those. Also, for certain mons on this list, it's best to Substitute on the switch since they can threaten Toxic ( ) or Leech Seed (), both of which ruin this set because of its tendency to use more Substitutes than other sets like SubCM.

Finally, a few checks & counters:
, (Knock Off + Foul Play): Because these resists use more than 1 attacking move, they can force this set out. is especially annoying, because its Sandstorm denies Spectrier its Lefties recovery.
With Infiltrator, Dragapult can come in and revenge kill this Spectrier every time since it has no way to boost its SpDef. (With 252 EVs in HP, Spectrier will always die to Specs Shadow Ball after Sub + up to 3 turns of Leftovers, and has an 81.3% chance to do so from full).

As you can see, the vast number of sets Spectrier has makes it very restrictive in teambuilding. In my opinion, Spectrier's movepool is quite good, with strong STAB moves (Shadow Ball/Hex), setup moves (Substitute/Calm Mind/Nasty Plot/Agility), and more (Will-O-Wisp/Disable/Taunt/Haze/more), not to mention the inferior but still decent Choiced sets. I've had a lot of fun using this Spectrier set recently, and I wanted to share it in this thread, however I do believe Spectrier's presence in the tier is too restrictive, and therefore unhealthy, and it should be banned.

 

[viet noa]

i’m not gonna be voting, since i’m a low ladder scrub, but i’d like to give my input on this has been a pretty heated thread D: but i understand the frustrations

it’s easy to look at his movepool and say “dark and normal types wall it”, but the utility that spectrier has makes it pretty much unmatched in the metagame. sub, taunt, disable, haze, and will o wisp are all FANTASTIC moves that can cripple pretty much any would-be check to spectrier.

people’s frustrations are at the fact that this situation isn’t as simple as it seems, and spectrier’s levels of broken-ness will only get deeper as the meta progresses (not the other way around). even in spite of having maybe 2 or 4 decent attacking moves, the mileage it gets from those moves are staggering, due to its status moves and base stats.

on paper, you would think that bulky dark types like and would just walk spectrier and strike back w/ super-effective damage. however, if a good player (which is many, many people) can take advantage of spectrier’s status moves, it makes those pokémon unable to do much of anything vs spectrier. at that point, it could potentially become setup fodder, and so on.

even pokémon like and may do “well” against spectrier, but they’re not super easy to slap onto any team like spectrier is. as much as i love my boi obstagoon, with the amount of chip damage it gets, you basically have to accept that taking down spectrier is pretty much the only thing it’ll do all game.

so,, yea! that’s how i feel about spectrier, it’s kinda broken

 

[zelda333]

So the thing that bothers me when talking about the sheer power of Spectrier in general is this. It's not like it is the first super strong Ghost type we have ever seen. Blace is stronger and packs a secondary STAB and can run most sets Spectrier can (Sub CM, Scarf, Specs) and also has an arguably better ability (can get speed boost as well).

You're seriously underestimating how important the speed tier is. Base 110 is a pretty important tier to outspeed, which blaceph fails to do. Additionally, spectrier beats kartana, tornadus, cinderace (forcing sucker), scarf outspeeds regieleki, etc, all which blaceph cannot. Not to mention spectrier is bulky enough for sub wisp sets to be very viable, and also has access to hex, all of which more than make up for the slight sp atk difference. If blace was as strong as you believe, it would be seen more than spect. There's a reason it's not. Everyone knows it's an option, but also that there's a much better one. However, with spect gone I think we'd see a lot more blace/gengar etc, which I'm looking forward to.

 

[RufflesPro]

It's outrageous to compare Spectrier to Blacephelon, or even Dragapult. The tipping edge for Spectrier isn't his SpA, his Spe, or even his broken ability. The tipping edge is the combination of all of that plus a bunch of small things, including the fact that a burnt Foul Play cannot break his sub. Since gen 6 the way the meta dealt with offensive ghost types is either Blissey, revenge killing with a faster pokemon, Sucker Punch mind games, SpD Ttar (chople/av/lefties w/ Pursuit) or Scarf T-tar with Crunch/Pursuit mindgames. Mandibuzz was only a last-resort answer to ghost types. Look at Spectrier, none of the aforementioned things are consistently reliable vs. him. Not Blissey (which is easily lured/trapped/weakened anyways), can only be revenge killed by Dragapult and a handful of viable scarfers like Kartana, Substitute gives you the advantage in Sucker Punch mind games, SpD T-tar is slowly worn out throughout the match, Scarf T-tar doesn't outspeed Spectrier, and Pursuit doesn't exist. Even mandibuzz, the last-resort mon where you only use it if you're really desperate, will not work on Spectrier unless you use Whirlwind, which is a huge opportunity cost because Knock Off, Toxic, and U-turn are all better overall in the meta.

To summarize There's a bunch of small things that actually push Spectrier into the broken territory:
- No Pursuit - Huge
- Scarf Ttar doesn't outspeed - Doesn't matter as much w/o Pursuit, but T-tar would have been a great check w/ scarf
- 2nd fastest speed tier - Huge
- Being able to hit hard enough with only Hex even without LO/Specs - This, combined with its speed tier + snowballing ability is the reason why Gengar and Blacephelon will never be able to replicate Spectrier's success
- The fact that a burnt Foul Play doesn't break sub with minimal investment - Even Mandibuzz, which is already not great (esp w/o U-turn), is not a check. In fact, it's set up bait.

Yes Blacephelon has more SpA, but Blacephelon doesn't have any of the aforementioned things above, especially the bulk to set up on Mandibuzz. Blacephelon is weak to rocks, will never break t-tar, can't set up nearly as good as Spectrier, is checked by Mandibuzz, and very easily revenge killed. Dragapult doesn't have the snowballing effect that comes from Grim Neigh/Beast boost, and can't set up nearly as easily as Spectrier.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

One big difference though, Naganadel's coverage was insane. Spectriers entire special movepool excists of Hex, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, Hyper Beam, Sift, Round, Snarl, Mud Slap and Uproar. Of those, only Hex/Shadow ball and very maybe Dark Pulse, Hyper Beam (never seen it though) and Mud Slap have viability. Hex and Shadow ball are super spammable, but can't touch normals, Dark Pulse is mainly there to try and beat non-cm Shadow Ball Blissey, and Mud Slap is to do some damage to ground weak mons but the move itself won't get you any KO's unless you're at +6 but by allowing that to happen you kind of deserve to get swept in the first place. WoW is a better move than most of its special movepool.

Also we can't pretend like Ghost types haven't been menacing Gen 8 OU all generation long. Most teams will have ways to counter ghosts already, some of which Spectrier beats but definately not all. I don't feel it restricts teambuilding that much considering most teams will already require a way to beat ghosts effectively.

The only viable normals are what, Blissey and Obstagoon? The former is unable to do anything to Spectrier unless she gives up a moveslot for Shadow Ball - something I find quite telling, to be sure (and even that isn't foolproof), and Taunt and Disable turn her into setup fodder. The latter is constantly taking damage from burn and hazards. Anyway, my point was that being predictable doesn't mean you can't be broken. To put things into perspective, Naganadel forced Heatran - a Pokemon that was immune to two of its moves and resisted the other - to run specially defensive sets, and Tyranitar, which gets a boost to special defense in sandstorms and resists two of its moves, to run Assault Vest just to try to hold it off - key word there being "try", as they have no recovery and can be easily worn down, as well as other niche checks that weren't good for much else. All this would be enough for me to conclude Naganadel is some very broken shit, even if it was one-dimensional (also, despite its lack of offensive coverage, Spectrier is still more unpredictable than Naga was, simply because it has means of neutralizing its checks other than simply bashing their faces in).

 

[Exotic64]

I'm going to share my opinions about Spectrier. I believe that the mon should be banned. When Spectrier was released in the Crown Tundra, everyone joked about it because of its extremely limiting move pool (comparable to Regieleki) however as the meta evolved Spectrier was a feared revenge killer.

Sure, Spectrier may not be as good as Magearna, Ace, Urshifu etc. however its devastating special attack stat of 140 (rivalling legendaries such as Eternatus, Rayqauza and Reshiram) and incredible speed of 130 makes it one of the best ghost types as well as a really good wallbreaker and revenge killer, not to mention it's incredibly broken ability, Grim Neigh, that boosts its SpA every time it kills a mon, that lets it get sweeps easily with its snowball effect. The removal of Pursuit also lets Spectrier freely switch out on would-be checks like Tyranitar.

Spectrier has many sets but the one I run into most often is either specs (shadow ball, hex, wisp and mudshot/dark pulse) or nasty plot (sub, np, hex/shadow ball, will-o-wisp/dark pulse).

Spectrier has one of the best typings as well, ghost, making it only weak to dark and ghost and resisting bug and poison. However, it is pretty much walled by all normal types because ghost cannot touch normal types. Here is a list of who I believe Spectrier's checks and counters are.

Probably the biggest wall to Spectrier, Blissey having a gigantic special defence stat and HP stat lets it tank every of Spectrier's attacks, including dark pulse, however Blissey must watch out for the occasional taunt that locks it into Seismic Toss.

Obstagoon, being normal and dark allows it to resist shadow ball and dark pulse and does not mind getting will-o-wispped because of its Guts, however, if a Spectrier gets +6 it can 2HKO Obstagoon.

Dragapult checks Spectrier with Infiltrator Shadow Ball and a higher speed stat however it must watch out for the occasional scarf Spectrier.

Hydreigon and Mandibuzz are similar, Mandibuzz pretty much walls Spectrier however if it is burnt it cannot break Spectrier's substitute and will eventually be worn down with Hex+wisp. Same thing with Hydreigon however Spec will need to be more careful around it but if Hydreigon is poisoned or burned Spectrier will have a lot easier time dealing with Hydreigon.

Spectrier has many sets but the one I run into most often is either specs (shadow ball, hex, wisp and mudshot/dark pulse) or nasty plot (sub, np, hex/shadow ball, will-o-wisp/dark pulse).

In conclusion, due to Spectrier's incredible typing and monstrous SpA and speed plus the ability to snowball with limited checks and counters, I believe Spectrier is too much for OU to handle and therefore will be voting ban.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

Dracovish type suspect. Spectrier isn't even all that good right now since whenever you bring it its walled by a dark type for basically the entire game. Of course, if your opponent cheaps out and decided to forgo a dark type or a blissey scarf spectrier can win the game from the lead slot.

Imo, anyone who thinks spectrier can consistently beat its checks and it trying to ban it on that ground is missing the point, in the same way all those dracovish calcs of CB 2hko'ing ferrothorn were missing the point of that suspect.

We didn't ban dracovish because it could kill its checks, we banned it because it forced every team to run said checks or be steamrolled if they faced it. Its unfun on the ladder, and leads to more incentive to counterteam in tournaments when you can save a teamslot on useless defensive dark type if you can confirm the opponent won't bring the horse. No competitive merit at all. Ban