Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 9 - Old Town Road

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Wait, wasn't there just a ban last month? Imo if you ban everything, the meta will become stale as shit and the game will lose traction. No need for a ban tbh. Another thing I notice is that people who choose to not ban, will Koffing react because that's how our community works. Just try to listen to those who don't want a ban.
 

viet noa

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Wait, wasn't there just a ban last month? Imo if you ban everything, the meta will become stale as shit and the game will lose traction. No need for a ban tbh. Another thing I notice is that people who choose to not ban, will Koffing react because that's how our community works. Just try to listen to those who don't want a ban.
i mean, i hope you’re listening to the plentiful amount of rebuttals against the “don’t ban spectrier” arguments.

i understand that this has been a heated debate, but like ... saying that “people who choose to not ban” will get the “Koffing react because that's how our community works” is a misinformed generalization IMO. the reason i say this is because people are responding to these anti-ban comments, with very detailed & valid points on why people want spectrier banned. you should at least take that into consideration if you want to make a general statement about the community.

“if you ban everything, the meta will become stale as shit and the game will lose traction”

this is an easy thing to believe on paper, but time and time again, banning overly powerful pokémon has proven to make the meta more diverse. let’s think about it: how often do you see ghost type pokémon that AREN’T spectrier in high-level ou right now? there may be a few dragapult users, and maybe a sprinkle of aegislash users, but that’s pretty much it.

my point with that, is that spectrier is so outlandishly powerful with its ghost type capabilities, that it makes using almost any other ghost type (on a strictly competitve level) a pretty dumb decision. pokémon like gengar and blacephalon, for example, have the capabilities for higher-tier viability; as evidenced by them swiftly receiving uu bans. however, with spectrier being the dominant force it is, they have close to no belonging in ou right now.

thus, banning spectrier would actually make ou a more diverse metagame, where MANY ghost type pokémon can have their opportunity to shine, rather than just one spooky horse. that’s just imo though
 

Finchinator

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Wait, wasn't there just a ban last month? Imo if you ban everything, the meta will become stale as shit and the game will lose traction.
You realize that bans like this mean the metagame is changed and we are no longer obligated to use the same checks and counters repeatedly, thus leading to the exact opposite of a stale metagame? This line of logic you are applying is simply untrue.

No need for a ban tbh. Another thing I notice is that people who choose to not ban, will Koffing react because that's how our community works. Just try to listen to those who don't want a ban.
I'm happy to listen and I think that everyone who qualifies should be able to vote whatever they want without anyone reacting poorly at all -- people are free to feel how they wish and vote how they wish absolutely. However, this thread is for arguments to be presented and if this is all you have, then it should be no surprise as to why many people lean to favor the ban, especially given all of the great points expressed in prior posts about how it functions in the metagame as opposed to your vague generalizations.
 

Gomi

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people seem to have this obsession with making surface level comparisons between Spect and other Ghosts and its just laughably reductive

:ss/Dragapult:
best comparison to make here is Hex Status sets that have the potential to cheese most counterplay with annoying status and difficult to resist Stab between your Dragon stab of choice and, well, Hex.
-Cannot snowball
-No boosting moves beyond DD
-Considerably worse immediate power (100 vs 145 lol)
-Tends to bank on luck or team support to break
-Worse Bulk
Sub Spect sets barely fill the same role as this thing and Specs is a far superior breaker to Pult, especially if they pack something like Mandibuzz, though they both do about as well as the other vs Hydrei and Ttar (Hydrei is 2hko'd by Specs Hex Spect unless they run ridicolous amounts of Spdef invest), not to mention you can actually Sack vs Pult without having it brute force your check due to getting a free +1 on KOs.
:ss/Gengar:
Sub NP or NP 3 atks, basically the same thing its done all gen.
-Cannot snowball
-Awful bulk
-Much slower
-Somewhat weaker
-Has to actually find an oppurtunity to set up with the aforementioned traits
Much worse vs. Offense and doesn't punish you for losing mons to it, much more reasonable to revenge in general.

:ss/blacephalon:
Specs and CM are the main ones to talk about, I actually think this things a better scarfer due to Trick, though it's still a scarfer so ehhhh who cares both are kinda meh.
-Much worse speed
-Much worse bulk
-Worse typing (Practically every pokemon will pack coverage for Fire or Ghost)
-SR weakness (No HDB does not negate this, you still lose out on Lefties for spamming Sub and taking stray hits)
-Worse at forcing switches unless bluffing Scarf
This one is probably the closest one you can make and its still far worse vs Offense (which is very important as Spect is uniquely dominant vs more offensive builds) and cannot set up on nearly as much, not to mention most priority shreds it and cannot be circumvented like Sub 50/50s vs Sucker can.

The problem with Spect is that its offensive MU is absolutely nuts and its building restriction on the fatter end of the spectrum is downright impossible to ignore, the best way you can handle it without changing your set to something awful like Knock Buzz or Rest Crunch Ttar is PP stalling with Tport Bliss (which Taunt beats btw) or Running Pult and sacking it to CM to get Status or Damage off. The pokemon above might replicate one role but they do not do it to the same efficiency or falter in preforming something else Spect is good at, due to lacking multiple traits it possesses over them.
 
I'm really happy that Spectrier is getting suspected, and I think that before it was done, it would be from the better.

:spectrier:
We have to recap, since Spectrier has been out for two months from now. We're looking at a Pokémon that, since the release of the Crown Tundra (and when Genesect, Landorus-I, Pheromosa, Naganadel...) were released, Spectrier was already fourth in usage. And later that month, 8th
stats.jpg
stats2.jpg


With each single month and ban, more and more offensive Pokémon were banned; Zygarde, Kyurem, Phero...You named it. The last one, Urshifu, it's the biggest one for me.

Urshifu was one of the few resistance that could switch into Spectrier, and threat with either a Wicked Blow or Sucker Punch, and it was in general great, to the point it was too much for the tier.

Now, with the current OU tier, there are only 3 viable Pokémon that tie/outspeed non-scarf Spectrier, and for counters, they all are passive answers. Also, no Pursuit means she can switch easily with no punishment.

:zeraora:
Zeraora
Good pokémon in the tier (a bit underrated) but that it stills struggles aganist Landorus, Nidoking, weather teams...It's good but Scarf can take it after some chip damage and it's not really that good in the tier.
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 171-202 (53.9 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
One Sucker Punch, U turn, helmet+iron barbs...And it's in range of KO

:dragapult:
Dragapult
Not that good right now. You have to run either life orb or specs to make it good since scarf is not that great anymore and if the Spectrier reads your Sucker and uses will-o wisp on a Life Orb set, you're out. It's good but not that great anymore.

Tapu Koko
Only speed tie, and only if Spectrier isn't scarf. Also Koko never KOs Spectrier so it need cheap damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier in Electric Terrain: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thunder kills tho but that's like hitting focus blast

And we're just talking about the full offensive sets thing is while you can think that Spectrier has a bad movepool, she...Actually has everything she needs. Sub, disable, haze, nasty plot, calm mind, hex and even dark type coverage if you really want to hit blissey/normal types. If we're talking about "counters", most of them are bad on a non-Spectrier meta.

:dp/tyranitar:
Tyranitar
The new Buzzwole, once Spectrier bans, we'll see him in UU again. There's really no reason to run it instead of Hippo, who has better typing, defensive stats and not a 4x weakness.

:bw/hydreigon:
Hydreigon
Roost+Defog Hydreigon is bad. It does not even counters Spectrier because she can run disable+calm mind and set up in your face. Due to your EVs you don't even kill Koko on the switch (and I'm talking about offensive, not even screens)
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 688-816 (187.9 - 222.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:obstagoon:
Obstagoon
It takes 6% per turn, weak to sand, takes all hazards and has a weakness to bug, 4x fighting, and it struggles to last on the field more than 3 turns. It is not horrible on stopping Spectrier of course, but it's not a overall good pokémon in OU.

:zarude:
Zarude
Not good nor reliable. 4x weakness to U-turn, runs out of Jungle Healing quickly. It's better than Obstagoon in my opinion but you're just making time before spectrier runs over. Also walled by Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Mandibuzz, Skarmory whirlwinds it out easily if it tries to bulk up...

And finally
:dp/Blissey:
Blissey
It can disable the shadow ball (if it's running it) and if it's not, it's just a wall in front of it, not one that pulls menace, only one that will either try to PP stall or teleport all the time and start 50/50s. And also Spectrier can run Dark pulse for it.
+6 172 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In conclusion, this Pokémon ruins teambuilding and it's going to be healthier for OU to be banned.
 
Wait, wasn't there just a ban last month? Imo if you ban everything, the meta will become stale as shit and the game will lose traction. No need for a ban tbh. Another thing I notice is that people who choose to not ban, will Koffing react because that's how our community works. Just try to listen to those who don't want a ban.
Those who don't want a ban can vote that way. Koffing reacts don't negate votes. Spectrier restricts team building to the point that many more Pokemon will be viable with it gone. Spectrier is the definition of stale.
 

Nix_Hex

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So the thing that bothers me when talking about the sheer power of Spectrier in general is this. It's not like it is the first super strong Ghost type we have ever seen. Blace is stronger and packs a secondary STAB and can run most sets Spectrier can (Sub CM, Scarf, Specs) and also has an arguably better ability (can get speed boost as well). Yet no one has ever complained that it is unwallable or broken. And that is exeactly what people here are suggesting. They are saying that Spectrier is the strongest thing we have ever seen in this metagame and that it mandates dark/normal types in order to be beaten while realistically a large portion of defensive backbones can handle it if played cautiously. And the thing is due to its lack of offensive versatility all sets have similar counters and even the setup sweeper set can only run 2 free moves (1 atacking+1 utility apart from sub and set up) which means it simply cannot run taunt and wisp and disable and dark pulse only for blissey (which is a garbage strategy anyways and is only used by theorymoners for arguments here) and mud shot for Heatran etc. Those sets are super matchup reliant and are in a real game much less effective than Scarf or Specs which are either immediate strong wallbreakers or are super fast revenge killers. So here we come to the conclusion that it really isn't Spectrier's raw power or sheer verstatility that is broken. So the only thing left is its speed which I agree is very high but for the past 2 gens most revenge killers/scarfers are way above 100 speed and while not every team has to run one, every solid team should have some speed control - smt faster than 130 speed or at least priority. All in all, if i do get reqs i will vote NO BAN, because all things considered the meta has more than enough ways of adapting to it so unless someone can convince me that Scarf/Specs sets are broken (which are IMO the only consistent sets it has) i just don't see it being overwhelming.
Okay I know you got showered with Koffing reacts for this post but I'd like to point out some seriously egregious stuff in this post. The italicized part is called a straw man argument, and is fairly common on cancerous social media platforms like Twitter. In it, you misrepresent the player-base with an exaggeration of them calling in the "strongest thing we have ever seen," and then proceed to attack that fictional argument... and you don't even do a good job of it. And sure, it's no Zacian-C or Mega Rayquaza but so what? The only checks to Spectrier are garbage niche sets or mons that you would only run for Spectrier and are otherwise completely pointless. You mocking the popular arguments doesn't suddenly make them bad arguments, it just makes you look foolish tbh. And honestly, what are you talking about with "speed control?" Even if you plan to outspeed this thing, this requires some risky pivoting unless you're going for the revenge kill (revenge killing ISN'T countering). And if Spec gets up a sub between all this pivoting, what does outspeeding it even mean when it can set up calm minds with impunity? Speed is only relevant a) if you can kill it before it gets a sub up, b) you can break its sub and prevent it from setting up another one, c) Infiltrator, or d) sound-based moves (lol).

I'll address these point by point.
a) You have to get your mon in on the same turn as Spectrier. This requires some aggressive double switching or smart pivoting with x-turn and Teleport. We're talking risky plays with multiple mons just to merely hope to check Spectrier. This assumes you have a Scarfer or one of the few mons left that are still naturally faster than it. Specs Dragapult will OHKO it, so that's cool. Modest Specs Regieleki is a roll with Thunderbolt, and we are long past new toy syndrome to actually still consider Specs Regi a serious threat when there are so many splashable Ground-types that are viable in OU.
b) This is a nice fantasy, but if Spectrier already has a sub up when you get your sub-breaker on the field, it already has the upper hand. Your scarfer takes a Will-O-Wisp or just a straight up +1 Hex before breaking its sub. What about all those non-scarfers that outspeed Spectrier? We'll talk about Dragapult in a minute, but here's what happens to Specs Regieleki:
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regieleki: 285-336 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO -- cool, you broke Spectrier's sub while most likely dying in the process, and for what? Spec just subs on your other Pokemon. Not to mention what I already said about Specs Regi.
c) Dragapult is the only viable Infiltrator user but at least it's a strong Pokemon, right? No, not really, not in this case. Here's what the mighty Dragapult does to +1 Spectrier with the common Sub/CM spread:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 258-306 (69.9 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not even a chance to OHKO without a crit, and by the time you have Pult in, Spec is likely at +1 and has taken enough leftovers recovery to make up for the sub damage. To make matters worse, Spectrier's sub stays up since Infiltrator does the damage behind the sub, not to it. And lastly, don't even think about like physical Pult or something because Phantom Force is telegraphed and you can just switch to something that can take it. Plus it's garbage, don't try it, I've tried it for you and just trust me it doesn't work.
d) I'm not going to address this. It's almost 2 AM and this post has gone on and on enough (much like this thread).

So yeah, instead of needlessly white-knighting an obviously broken Pokemon and strawmanning a vast majority of a well-informed and experienced playerbase, play a bunch of OU. Read the countless articulate posts that came before yours and actually digest their words. Hell, read the OP of this thread! You don't have to agree with it, but you can at least use it as a baseline to figure out your arguments. Real ones, not fallacies.
 
I think there's way worse pokemon to be banning before looking at Spectier who gets screwed by normal and dark types.

Instead you should be looking at scale shot Garchomp, the Tapus and the regenerators. They're way more broken and warp the whole metagame towards them.
 

BT89

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I think there's way worse pokemon to be banning before looking at Spectier who gets screwed by normal and dark types.
Alright, I cannot agree with this. Spectrier has quite obvious counterplay against these aforementioned Darks and Normals.

Darks

:mandibuzz: This thing hates being burned due to it not being able to offensively do anything against Spectrier, so Sub Wisp most likely will beat Mandibuzz.

:tyranitar: Rest Tyranitar can get the job done, but Spectrier can abuse Tyranitar being forced to Rest by continuous chip.

:hydreigon: The Specially Defensive variant of Hydreigon can usually beat Spectrier, but is otherwise terrible due to it not being able to do much outside of checking Spectrier.

:obstagoon: This thing is barely a check. It gets chipped too hard and loses to the Sub Disable variant. Notice how Spectrier’s supportive movepool destroys most of its would-be checks.

Normals

:blissey: Blissey can beat the Choiced Spectrier sets, but mainly loses to the Sub Taunt and Sub Disable variants of the horse, as it can Taunt the Blissey, and the Blissey will not be able to do anything.

:snorlax: Snorlax can beat most Spectrier sets, but, like Sp. Def Hydreigon cannot do much else outside of that niche use. This mon perfectly shows how Spectrier is affecting the usage of Normal and Dark types.

:exploud: Exploud can deal with Spectrier, but from what I have seen, it loses to Sub Disable. It hates having its moves be locked from being used, and it leaves it to be set up fodder for the horse. Also, it has no niche outside of beating the Ghost Horse.

There are obviously more of these fake Spectrier checks, but these are some of the more notable ones. As detailed, Spectrier can easily overcome Normal and Dark types, and the “Normal and Darks beat Spec” argument is very flimsy.
 

ausma

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Alright, I'd like to bite, and take a bit of a different angle in my argument to ban Spectrier by illustrating my original argument, which you can find here if you're interested.

:ss/spectrier:

To keep things straight forward, I would like to ask people in the DNB boat: what positive consequence does keeping Spectrier in the tier do for metagame development and teambuilding? I ask this question namely because I have noticed many people who are against banning Spectrier tend to argue that it is, in theory, easy to counter. However, what does it actually take to counter Spectrier? Let me break this down bit by bit, based on what we know about Spectrier.

1: A Pokemon that can take on Ghost-type STAB.

This one is obvious, but it does severely limit potential options simply because if your Pokemon can't take on Ghost-type STAB, then it is a non-answer regardless of how it fills the other criteria.

2: A Pokemon that does not care about being burned.



In this boat, we have most commonly used Normal-types, Obstagoon, Zarude, and Rest SpDef Tyranitar. Normal-types are probably the closest thing we get to a Pokemon not caring about being statused, as Dark-types will still have to stomach boosted Hexes (and, very frequently, against Spectrier's stat boosts). The latter two Pokemon are vulnerable to being chipped down, and even though both can in theory remove the status in question, they will have to actually take Spectrier's boosted hits first, and in the latter's case, become even more of a momentum sink for 2 turns.

Every other Dark-type example cannot take on Spectrier's Hex, and thus cares about being statused. Hydreigon and Mandibuzz are the best exhibitions of this example.

3: A Pokemon that can actually damage Spectrier reliably.



This criterion is relevant due to the rise of Disable sets being run to deal with a wealth of Spectrier's checks. Disable Spectrier can render a majority of theoretical checks sitting ducks, disabling the respective moves of Hydreigon/Mandibuzz/Obstagoon/Blissey/Snorlax and using them as setup fodder. It is in part for this reason that Mandibuzz is now running dual Dark-type STABs, however, neither can break bulky Spectrier's substitute after being burned, making it an unreliable answer.

In this category, Zarude and Tyranitar both have secondary STABs that do threaten Spectrier even if their main Dark-type STABs are disabled. Exploud only has one move, but can bypass the initial Substitute using Boomburst and blow it away. However, since this is the case, Exploud can only answer Spectrier upon a hard switch or after an ally Pokemon is picked off, as to not get its Boomburst disabled. This leaves it especially prone to chip damage, or in a worse scenario, forcing a potentially valuable teammate to faint.

4: A Pokemon that has longevity.



These five are the only potential counters that have reliable recovery. Everything else is forced to either use Rest, or fold to passive damage or Mud Shot/Dark Pulse damage over time, making them incapable of being reliable, long term answers. These three Pokemon are the only ones that have decent immediate recovery options; Soft Boiled, Recycle + Berry, Jungle Healing, and Roost respectively.



These two Pokemon tend to run Rest for artificial longevity, however I feel as though this is important to mention because it does mean they can, theoretically, remain healthy. However, this necessitates them to use Rest and either fold to Sleep Talk luck or sleep turns. This is a problem for fairly obvious reasons, and is why I don't want to put too much emphasis on it.

--

With all of this criteria in mind, there are only really two potential "counters" that Spectrier actually has, those being Zarude and Tyranitar. These two Pokemon are, bluntly, not very great in this metagame barring the Spectrier matchup, and here's why:

:ss/tyranitar:

SpDef Tyranitar is honestly garbage, and bar none my least favorite thing to use in the tier. It is unbearably passive and a major momentum sink more often than not, and while it can set Sand and Stealth Rock, I feel as though in every other department, it is a worse Hippowdon due to its poultry defensive typing and its proneness to lose to a majority of the tier's removal options (barring Moltres and Zapdos), making it a subpar Stealth Rock setter in a vacuum. When it uses Rest, it is forced to sit there for two turns, doing absolutely nothing, and either being setup fodder for a Spectrier teammate or being forced to sustain damage before it can move again. It tends to want Heal Bell support for this reason, but that forces you to actually bring Heal Bell, which Clefable tends to not have much room for.

:ss/zarude:

Zarude, contrarily, is a really fun Pokemon to use, however I acknowledge that it is a really niche setup sweeper and has a difficult time, given the rise of walls such as Corviknight, Zapdos, and Landorus-T, and its painful proneness to being outsped and revenge killed due to spending many turns setting up before it can actually do work. It hates momentum spam, too, and even when setting up defense boosts, it is tremendously chunked by U-turn, and can be then picked off by a speedier threat such as Cinderace or Tornadus-T. I think it's really cool, but it's not really that good.

--

Do you see the problem? The only two Pokemon that "counter" Spectrier to any degree of consistency are not splashable Pokemon in the tier, and this is the case with a majority of Spectrier's hypothesized "counters", being either incredibly niche to the point where their viability only comes from the possibility of checking Spectrier, or only being used much at all because of the possibility of checking Spectrier. None of these answers are genuinely sustainable in this metagame, and is why I consider these answers to be unnatural in a vacuum. Of any of the aforementioned Pokemon, Blissey and Mandibuzz are the only two natural Pokemon that can check Spectrier, but both are not at all reliable for the reasons mentioned above. Ultimately, what this does is constrain the teambuilder, forcing you to use one of these subpar answers just to make it so the ridiculous nature of Spectrier is even able to be played around. Even that is not a certainty, and in that lies the big issue with Spectrier in the tier.

So, with all of that in mind--even if you still disagree--I ask again: does keeping Spectrier in the tier actually do anything positive for our metagame and teambuilding? Is gutting team synergy and forcing the use of incredibly unnatural, inconsistent answers worth doing? I feel as though it isn't. Spectrier is a horrendously designed Pokemon competitively, abusing just about everything that could be considered problematic in its own right. Ghost-type STAB, gigantic base Speed, a nuclear base SpAtk, no Pursuit to pick it off, and a mindless snowballing ability--all to create a disgusting conglomerate of an offensive Pokemon. Spectrier adds nothing to this tier besides incredibly constrained teambuilding and frustratingly unnatural matchups, and it's for these reasons that I believe it should be banned.
 
There is so much wasted space in here misrepresenting how "unstoppable" spectrier is -- literally pages of the same things being said about how one counter gets "chipped too much", another one dies to +2 hyper beam, and the now classic "it gets disabled".

I will let you all know if I spot any of those fabled specs+leftovers shadowball/hex/darkpulse/hyperbeam/taunt/disable/willowisp/calm mind/substitute/double kick sets on ladder. My scarf+power herb, EQ/stone edge/knock/turn/gravity/smackdown/sd/rock polish/toxic/boom Lando-T is in need of some competition.

If you don't like having to use a spectrier counter on your team, just say that. Don't make up nonsense about these magical beat-everything sets, because that bogus exercise can be done to make any pokemon appear to have no counterplay (other than weedle).

Edit for replies:
If you all want to double down and write essays about it, I'm not going to stop you. Usage stats reflect that spectrier is specs+wisp the majority of the time. The question is if you don't like having to use a normal/dark type at the expense of losing more against other common stuff in the tier. CreamyGlasses is the only one I've seen actually get this.
 
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Hex set enough to warrant ban, seen enough games and SPL replays included to see the constraint this mon puts on tier resorting to stupid mons like Snorlax and Rest Ttar so it doesnt snowball. Snarl Hydreigon only decent counterplay where you can actually fight back and not sit there like Blissey where you pp stall it? Lol? Mandi ass too for the fact loses to Hex set on the topic of Spectrier alone. Not going to discuss the whole back and forth of some of the other sets since some of them aren't as good or kind of memey and Hex set is enough to ban this with its snowball capabilities. Past posts already covered it but the comparison of this to things like Dragapult/Gengar because they're ghosts are so silly it's not even worth entertaining.
 

Nix_Hex

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There is so much wasted space in here misrepresenting how "unstoppable" spectrier is -- literally pages of the same things being said about how one counter gets "chipped too much", another one dies to +2 hyper beam, and the now classic "it gets disabled".

I will let you all know if I spot any of those fabled specs+leftovers shadowball/hex/darkpulse/hyperbeam/taunt/disable/willowisp/calm mind/substitute/double kick sets on ladder. My scarf+power herb, EQ/stone edge/knock/turn/gravity/smackdown/sd/rock polish/toxic/boom Lando-T is in need of some competition.

If you don't like having to use a spectrier counter on your team, just say that. Don't make up nonsense about these magical beat-everything sets, because that bogus exercise can be done to make any pokemon appear to have no counterplay (other than weedle).
The sarcasm is appreciated, thanks for keeping the discussion on track. You do realize that you don't know a Pokemon's four moves off the bat, right? These examples of Will-O and Disable do not assume that Spectrier knows both moves at once. Let's say Spec forces a switch and uses Substitute. Okay cool, now what are its other moves? Obviously one of them is Nasty Plot or Calm Mind, then Hex or Shadow Ball for its attack. Fourth move is Will-O, Taunt, or Disable. You likely won't know what the third and fourth moves are until it is +1 behind a sub. If it has EITHER Will-O or Disable, then your Dark type is getting burned or having it's super effective move disabled after it breaks your sub. If it has EITHER Disable or Taunt, Blissey can't do anything but hit it with Shadow Ball, which is so weak that Spect can set up without sub and eventually get subs up that will survive Shadow Ball.
 

McCoolDude

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There is so much wasted space in here misrepresenting how "unstoppable" spectrier is -- literally pages of the same things being said about how one counter gets "chipped too much", another one dies to +2 hyper beam, and the now classic "it gets disabled".

I will let you all know if I spot any of those fabled specs+leftovers shadowball/hex/darkpulse/hyperbeam/taunt/disable/willowisp/calm mind/substitute/double kick sets on ladder. My scarf+power herb, EQ/stone edge/knock/turn/gravity/smackdown/sd/rock polish/toxic/boom Lando-T is in need of some competition.

If you don't like having to use a spectrier counter on your team, just say that. Don't make up nonsense about these magical beat-everything sets, because that bogus exercise can be done to make any pokemon appear to have no counterplay (other than weedle).

This would be a valid argument if all of the sets being listed weren't being used frequently and viably by spectrier. When your "counter" loses to a frequently run, viable set, it is not a counter.
 
So after playing around with and going up against spectrier i belive that this pokemon is incredibly restricting in both team building and going up against it for some reasons.
Now originally when it first came out not a lot of people really cared about it because so many pokemon were around and we gotten old pokemon such as kyurem black, melmetal, cinderace and magearna, However what makes spectrier so unique and more broken is its arsenal. Now spectrier has a horendous movepool outside of shadow ball and dark pulse and hex we know that however there is more that meets the eye. spectrier has a special attack stat of 145 which makes it do 40 to 50% to almost everything and 130 speed which allows it to outspeed everything that isn't dragapult, zeraora and scarf users. however they cannot switch in to spectrier once it gets enough grim neigh boosts.

Yes this thing does have checks. ttar, blissey, mandibuzz,dragapult and are all good ways of checking spectrier however here is the thing with those checks. ttar does not want to get statused otherwise it gets worn down by hex, blissey needs to run shadow ball if it wants to dent spectrier or take down its substitute and it has to stay alive and not get worn down or killed, mandibuzz is basically the same boat with ttar except it doesn't have to worry about mud shot and dragapult cannot switch into any of its attacks outside of like uproar and mud shot but even then if dragapult isn't running clear body it loses its niche in outspeeding spectrier since mud shot works like bulldoze. And spectrier is a pokemon where it has so many options and oppertunity's to just snowball and kill your team. it gets 1700 special attack if it gets 3 kills. granted cinderace if its running sucker punch can kill it and obstagoon is really good against it but those are not good enough to warren it healthy.

Fighting against it though i think you will have a different outlook since i have only lost once against it and it was late game. but the same can be applied to anyone else not prepared for it. its not that fun to fight against and it forces you to run a pokemon that checks spectrier just so it doesn't lose to it.

In conclusion I believe that spectrier should be banned from the ou tier for the following reasons. it limits teambuilding and what you could do, it forces you to run specific pokemon that you normally wouldn't run, its stats are too ridiculous, it hits like a truck and a nuke after a grim neigh boost or two, its faster that most of the meta game and it would be better off in ubers. whether or not its worse there is pointless because its too much for this tier.

Here are some calcs dealing with each set ranging from specs to scarf to sub.

+3 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 213-251 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 124-146 (39.1 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 184-217 (58 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 272-321 (38 - 44.9%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This calc is basically what happens if blissey loses its boots
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 233-274 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
Now you might be wondering about sub
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mandibuzz: 147-174 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
252 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 278-330 (75.3 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 414-488 (130.5 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 72-86 (19.5 - 23.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar: 121-143 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 81-96 (20 - 23.7%) -- 45.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
 
There is so much wasted space in here misrepresenting how "unstoppable" spectrier is -- literally pages of the same things being said about how one counter gets "chipped too much", another one dies to +2 hyper beam, and the now classic "it gets disabled".

I will let you all know if I spot any of those fabled specs+leftovers shadowball/hex/darkpulse/hyperbeam/taunt/disable/willowisp/calm mind/substitute/double kick sets on ladder. My scarf+power herb, EQ/stone edge/knock/turn/gravity/smackdown/sd/rock polish/toxic/boom Lando-T is in need of some competition.

If you don't like having to use a spectrier counter on your team, just say that. Don't make up nonsense about these magical beat-everything sets, because that bogus exercise can be done to make any pokemon appear to have no counterplay (other than weedle).
You don't really get it, do you? While a Pokemon can only run one item and four moves, the issue is you don't know what it's running until they actually use their moves (or use Frisk, in the case of most items). Case in point: Genesect, Mega Lucario, and ORAS Greninja. The former has a shitload of viable sets, which means there's no guarantee you have a mon that can handle it, especially since depending on in what manner they deviate from the usual sets, your supposed check might not turn out to be one after all, and even if by some miracle you do have a check for it, odds are it just U-turned out on you, putting you on the backfoot. Same for Mega Lucario and ORAS Greninja; their vast movepools ensured that counters were virtually nonexistent, and their checks were shaky at best. Long story short, the former forced teams to run checks to both Nasty Plot and Swords Dance sets, and even then, those checks could still get raped by Mega Lucario's sheer power, while would-be revenge killers (which mostly had to be Scarf mons) had to beware of priority. The latter had STAB on everything thanks to Protean (which also means even if you survived, you might not take it out because it now resists the move you used), which enabled it to tear through teams easily, and all but required a scarfer to outspeed. Both forced guessing games where one wrong guess meant something was dead, and you probably lost. Now, Spectrier might not be on the level of these atrocities, but still, only a small pool of mons can hope to handle it, and depending on its set, they might not work. Factor in that Spectrier has Moxie for special attack, and is it any wonder that most of the people who posted here want it gone?
 
There is so much wasted space in here misrepresenting how "unstoppable" spectrier is -- literally pages of the same things being said about how one counter gets "chipped too much", another one dies to +2 hyper beam, and the now classic "it gets disabled".

I will let you all know if I spot any of those fabled specs+leftovers shadowball/hex/darkpulse/hyperbeam/taunt/disable/willowisp/calm mind/substitute/double kick sets on ladder. My scarf+power herb, EQ/stone edge/knock/turn/gravity/smackdown/sd/rock polish/toxic/boom Lando-T is in need of some competition.

If you don't like having to use a spectrier counter on your team, just say that. Don't make up nonsense about these magical beat-everything sets, because that bogus exercise can be done to make any pokemon appear to have no counterplay (other than weedle).

Edit for replies:
If you all want to double down and write essays about it, I'm not going to stop you. Usage stats reflect that spectrier is specs+wisp the majority of the time. The question is if you don't like having to use a normal/dark type at the expense of losing more against other common stuff in the tier. CreamyGlasses is the only one I've seen actually get this.
Why would anyone write several more paragraphs discussing a statement with no depth?
That's why this convo doesn't go anywhere and why CreamyGlasses's post was the only necessary one: it's not wrong by any means, there is literally nothing else to say about it.
The discussion lies in how wrong your last sentiment of "just bring a normal" is. Noone needs to be further informed on how stupid strong neutral hits on this thing are. (Hence anti-ban arguments revolving around bringing said normals/darks. Do you expect that just to be ignored in favor of repeating Spect's special attack stat?) Dracovish-type suspect indeed.
 
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McCoolDude

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Edit for replies:
If you all want to double down and write essays about it, I'm not going to stop you. Usage stats reflect that spectrier is specs+wisp the majority of the time.
The majority of the time, you will see a set that isn't specs + wisp. And since sub+ disable (really just many sub sets) beats specs + wisp counters, you lose to the second most common set, congratulations.


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Gonna keep this plain and simple... BAN THE HORSE. Instead of writing a lengthy essay about how its able to adapt like others have done, I'm going to take apart the no ban arguments piece by piece and show just how shit they are, clowning the no ban side and boosting my like count. This is unfiltered stuff, because I HATE Spectrier. I think its arguably more of a pain than urshifu was just because spectrier has shit checks that are useless in a game where spectrier isn't used. This very likely ban will be the best ban OU has experienced this gen since dracovish imo.

First lets talk about how it leads to a "stale" metagame. That's a load of horseshit (haha get it we are suspecting broken horse). Down below is a list of pokemon that are offensive and benefit from spectrier leaving. This would free up teams a lot instead of playing the "keep spectrier answer alive or you lose game" -creds to whoever made that statement btw.
- stale metagame my ass, there is still plenty of offensive variety left even after spectrier gets banned.
Next lets look at spectrier's "answers" and how it restricts the metagame to basically using dickass mons or sets on every team.
-literal dick mon right here. There are so many defoggers id rather use but instead I'm stuck with this piece of trash. gets worn down by wisp and has to run double dark moves, shit mon being forced to run a shit set isn't helpful to support keeping spect.
-adapted by running shadow ball, and then spectrier adapted to this adaptation. I think that when shadow ball blissey is being used shows a real problem right here.
- defog+snarl+roost is a literal trash set that does nothing else in the metagame, Yeah, its ok against tran bit then gets hit with toxic and now its dead weight. The fact that such a shitty set is used doesn't seem to click in the NO ban's side head apparently. Unviable sets being made shows how a pokemon is restrictive and banworthy.
- another shit mon, let it drop to UU so it can then be shit there as well. instead of using the chad hippowdon we have to use rest ttar to deal with spectrier, yet another trash set that gets exploited by 3/4 of the mons in the tier. Total momentum sink, next mon
- gets worn down too quickly and kills itself before doin anything, gets dicked by disable and forced out. Once again running rest talk isn't a good adaptation, just a measly attempt at trying to make obstagoon good.
- literally only on the VR as an answer to spectrier and even then it gets used as set up bait with sub disable
Don't even get me started on the other stuff cause they're all useless and stop trying to justify using shit mons as healthy. galarian moltres isn't a a good answer in the slightest, but I think the person who made that post has been clowned upon enough. Anyway, there HAVE been examples of HEALTHY adaptation before in OU, like hippo running spdef for volc or pult running dragon darts on hex for volc and zam as well. However, as stated literally dozens of times, these adaptations to spectrier aren't healthy. Not gonna get started on the pult/gengar/blacephalon argument, the first has way weaker special attack, the second has lower speed and lack of a snowball potential, and the third is weak to rocks. Spectrier has superior qualities compared to all of them, that's why they are all low in usage compared to spect.

My favorite one: for those who are saying "just run normals/darks"- no, we shouldn't force ourselves to restrict teambuilding just to keep a mon in the tier. All but 2 normals are shit mons and both can be taken advantage of by spectrier. One post I want to highlight is from Ausma, who makes a great point that spectrier doesn't offer any positives in the tier. Nothing bad happens from banning it other you have to plat ubers to use it now. In my opinion, at least cinderace or magearna offer a fast pivot on balance/BO teams or give defensive utility to offensive teams respectively, so there is a valid reason to keep them, but nothing with spectrier.

The key point is this: spectrier has a wide variety of moves to beat its checks and a wide variety of sets, meaning all the answers to it are shaky as spect is very unpredictable. They are also dogshit mons that have no use in OU outside of barely checking spectrier. The NO Ban side right now is a bunch of clowns with shit posts that hasn't convinced anyone in the slightest to vote NO ban. This literally reminds me of the dracovish thread both in the impact the mons have in the metagame and how crappy the not ban side is. CreamyGlasses made arguably one of the best and most simple points of the thread, we just don't want to run shit normal and dark types who do nothing but check spectrier, that slot can go to something to help improve the team against other threats like cinderace and magearna. Anyway I'm done, like this post and I'll make a round 2 clowning on more people.
 

MrAldo

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Metagame is definitely not stale at all but this isnt the type of thread to discuss people comfort zones and why they need to get out of it.

Spectrier has all the necessary tools to just win games by getting a free setup and just going for it thanks to Grim Neigh since it just gets out of control extremely fast. Dark types will always be good and while Spectrier has forced those pretty much I think many will stay and I havent find that a bothersome consideration, in fact it has helped a bit in discovering some nice niche picks and thats all part of allowing a metagame to develop. However that doesnt mean that Spectrier isnt too much, crazy mon that just gets out of control very fast by just guessing the set wrong and have made stuff like snarl hydreigon main slash worthy so funky forced adaptations like that just to keep it at bay means it need to go in my honest opinion, not about dark types but having to run some mons or items cause of spectrier existence.

And I dont believe Spectrier leaving will toss the balance towards fat or nothing of the kind. Some other ghost types are still great and worth of consideration, but they heavily eclipsed by it. I see potential in gengar with some knock off nasty plot, aegislash for sure can be better without spectrier around and it is an excellent breaker as well, dragapult is always there for offensive pivoting and I think there is a good chance for blacephalon to be relevant too. All but one break very very well, and doesnt have the broken capacity of snowball like that without anything on the tier outspeeding naturally (blacephalon has a middling speed tier when stuff like cinderace and tornadus are common play).

I believe Spectrier leaving is necessary for the metagame to find a better place and allowing to develop, right now it doesnt feel bad but it feels stagnant cause there is stuff that feels somewhat forced on the builds, and I feel spectrier is the one providing the tighter grip in the options. I love the horse a ton but it definitely needs to go.
 

Cringetopia

Banned deucer.
Hi so I just recently came back to playing after not loading up a single game in about 2 years so I have been able to look at this metagame through fresh eyes. I must say that throughout my time playing ORAS and SM OU on the ladder when they were the current gens, I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a constrictive and potent mon (except for maybe some of the mons in very early sm that got banned very quickly). I was using a finchinator sample team that had teleport blissey + toxapex + dragapult which I assumed would have this mon completely in check but then I played against some sub wisp taunt hex set that slowly chips blissey down, easily eats a hit from pult and 2hkos a burned pex. If I had specs pult I suppose I would’ve had it in check, but then the pult wouldn’t beat any cm set.

It just seems like this mon can shape itself into beating any of its so-called counters and it usually comes down to one mon holding back the floodgates from this demon snowballing out of control. Someone in ou room also recommended that I use defensive hydreigon as a counter but it just seems to burn through its roosts because it’s still forced to take hits from spectier while being quite susceptible to chip damage from rocks, status and sand, and also there dont seem to be that many games where it can completely stay out of the action other than checking spectrier, especially when needed for defog. I also tried obstagoon because it seemed strong and zizagoon has always been one of my favourite mons but its longevity is just laughable. I may not be the most experienced player in this tier but Spectrier just seems to be absolutely ridiculous and from what I’ve seen you just straight up can’t ever truly be safe against it.
 
just wanted to give my thoughts on ghost horse (i think it looks cute but that's not the point here)

a lot of people seem to think that just because spectrier has counters, it's not banworthy. that isn't the case, it's never been the case. i don't think i need to go into the "counters", because everyone has just bullied all the people who listed those counters into submission, so i'll move onto my main point.

to me spectrier is broken because it FORCES you to run a certain set of pokemon. if you don't have those pokemon, you lose, no exceptions. and even if you do have those mons, it's not even guaranteed to work because it could (and most likely will) be running a set specifically tailored to beat that so called counter. to clarify, there's a difference between teching a togekiss onto your team to stop a garchomp from beating you and being forced to run a mandibuzz/blissey to stop a specific spectrier set.

don't get me wrong, blissey's a great mon and all, but it doesn't fit every team and sometimes has to run shadow ball of all moves to beat spectrier. and that's not even guaranteed to work! and i've never liked using mandibuzz, so if i could avoid even touching it with a ten-foot pole, that would be great. there are calcs on here that show how mandibuzz's foul play doesnt break spectrier's sub while burned and how blissey's shadow ball doesnt break spectrier's sub after 1 cm, so i won't make some big wall of calcs.

don't even get me started on how someone thinks diggersby can switch in by any means (it's really frail and basically dies if it gets burned)

tl;dr, forcing someone to run a specific mon, no matter how good or bad it is, to beat another specific mon, is not okay. it wasn't okay when greninja got banned in oras, it wasn't okay when dracovish got banned, it wasn't okay when urshifu got banned.



dark horse should be B A N N E D
 
Ok, so I'm ass and can't get reqs for the life of me (stupid ladder players haxing my wincons when im like 3-4 games away), but I wanted to add on to the discussion. Spectrier is a nuisance in both the builder and the battles itself. For example, Lets take mandibuzz. Not only does it have to run 2 dark moves for disable sets, but when it's burned, it doesn't break the sub with the ev spread of 112 20 on spectrier with either a knock off after Spectriers lefties are gone, or with foulplay. Couple that with the fact that mandibuzz is tasked with checking other mons, not just spectrier, so its gonna be chipped throughout the battle. Another "Check", Blissey can't do shit to it, even with shadow ball, as it doesn't even break the sub at +1, and just becomes setup fodder. And don't get me started on when you expect sub cm, and end up getting cleaned by specs shadow ball, boosted by Beast Boost. All in all, it needs too much counterplay, and the meta would be better off without it. If I ever get reqs, I want this thing gone.
 
I am pro ban with the horse. It's like many have already said: it restricts teambuilding and it is very easy to snowball.
He has enormous speed, and a special attack to destroy his counters. And he has really good support moves to troll Blissey, like taunt, disable.
I've seen teams use Trick with Grimmsnarl or Klefki with the Ring Target object to remove immunity from normal and ground types. Of course this looks more like a gimmick, but it turns out pretty good.

I fully understand those who believe that too many pokemon are being banned. I myself believe that Urshifu and Zygarde should not have been banned.
Zygarde has a lot of checks and counters. Clefable Unaware can use Sofboiled now, an even more reliable counter. Moves like triple axel can tear him apart. Added to another check like Rillaboom. Dragapult etc. Slowbro is everywhere, it should only carry ice beam. Slowking works too.
Urshifu is very good offensively, but it is easy to weaken him with chip damage, and he is easy to revengekiller, there are many pokemon that can do that job, even support pokemon like Whimsicott, Rimbobee, Ninetales alola, etc.

What do i mean? That this horse really pushes you hard to carry something that not only can deal with it, but wins yes or yes. A single mistake can generate the snowball. Not even a mistake, hax, very common. On the other hand, the aforementioned did not cause this serious problem.

I think he deserves a BAN. And Zygarde deserves a suspect test.
 
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