executive decision
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np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
executive decision
Glad to see Deoxys is getting banned. :naughty:
As for the metagame, I'm not really liking it. Too much overcentralization on Steels and Dragons. (In fact my current team is the boring offensive Triple Steel, Dual Dragon, Skymin that's so common...I feel so ashamed, I'll likely end up making a new team tomorrow.) Diversity in teams is what makes battles fun imo.
As for other suspects...
Latios: Latios is just too powerful. While Scarf is easily stopped (And Specs if you predict right.) The other sets will usually get a kill before falling. The fact it can use attacks from both sides of the spectrum doesn't help either. I've been using a mixed set that RL came up with at his Gimmicks site (Thanks man.) , with HP Fire over Surf to beat Scizor and Steels easier. It works pretty well for me, and helps open up Garchomp sweeps.
Uber? Probably. It's too fast and powerful, and can even beat most of it's counters with the right moveset.
Skymin: Skymin isn't as hard to handle as Latios due to lower defenses and the SR weakness, but it's still fast and powerful. It can even beat most of its counters thanks to the 80% chance of a Sp. Def. drop (Seed Flare) and 60% flinch rate (Air Slash), and the only real safe switch-in is Blissey, but it will even fall occasionally thanks to said moves. Choiced versions aren't really that great though...but SubSeed is annoying and Life Orb with HP Fire is a monster of a sweeper.
Uber? Imo, Yes. Skymin is too much, especially when the most reliable way of getting rid of it is to revenge kill it.
Garchomp: Not sure about him yet. He's pretty tame for now thanks to the other suspects, but the SD sweepers are still annoying to fight. I myself have been using the SubSalacSD sweeper, which I'm thinking is pretty effective right now.
Uber? We'll see. It largely depends on the other suspects. If they get banned, then Chomp will likely follow suit.
Latias: Haven't used yet, but based on standard matches it's not overpowering in the slightest.
Uber? No, I don't think of her as overpowering in the slightest.
I have no opinion on Manaphy yet, as I've yet to face one. :P
So far though, I think the test is going well, and I look forward to trying some new ideas in the future.
I can't agree more.
As for the metagame, I'm not really liking it. Too much overcentralization on Steels and Dragons. (In fact my current team is the boring offensive Triple Steel, Dual Dragon, Skymin that's so common...I feel so ashamed, I'll likely end up making a new team tomorrow.) Diversity in teams is what makes battles fun imo.
As for other suspects...
Latios: Latios is just too powerful. While Scarf is easily stopped (And Specs if you predict right.) The other sets will usually get a kill before falling. The fact it can use attacks from both sides of the spectrum doesn't help either. I've been using a mixed set that RL came up with at his Gimmicks site (Thanks man.) , with HP Fire over Surf to beat Scizor and Steels easier. It works pretty well for me, and helps open up Garchomp sweeps.
Uber? Probably. It's too fast and powerful, and can even beat most of it's counters with the right moveset.
Skymin: Skymin isn't as hard to handle as Latios due to lower defenses and the SR weakness, but it's still fast and powerful. It can even beat most of its counters thanks to the 80% chance of a Sp. Def. drop (Seed Flare) and 60% flinch rate (Air Slash), and the only real safe switch-in is Blissey, but it will even fall occasionally thanks to said moves. Choiced versions aren't really that great though...but SubSeed is annoying and Life Orb with HP Fire is a monster of a sweeper.
Uber? Imo, Yes. Skymin is too much, especially when the most reliable way of getting rid of it is to revenge kill it.
Garchomp: Not sure about him yet. He's pretty tame for now thanks to the other suspects, but the SD sweepers are still annoying to fight. I myself have been using the SubSalacSD sweeper, which I'm thinking is pretty effective right now.
Uber? We'll see. It largely depends on the other suspects. If they get banned, then Chomp will likely follow suit.
Latias: Haven't used yet, but based on standard matches it's not overpowering in the slightest.
Uber? No, I don't think of her as overpowering in the slightest.
I have no opinion on Manaphy yet, as I've yet to face one. :P
So far though, I think the test is going well, and I look forward to trying some new ideas in the future.
Sweet now that Deoxys is banned, I can test a new sweeper build of my favourite pokemon. I've theorymonned a fair bit, and it seems as if it will absolutely tear shit up in this metagame, so can't wait to see how it works!
EDIT: Looks like some people have already thought of it, so I'll just post it here. Substitute/Tail Glow/Ice Beam/Surf Manaphy :)
EDIT: Looks like some people have already thought of it, so I'll just post it here. Substitute/Tail Glow/Ice Beam/Surf Manaphy :)
First impressions:
These are my first impressions on ladder. When I've laddered enough to make a clearer analysis, I would like to go back and see how much have changed.
But before we go anywhere:
Skarmory is the best Pokemon in the game. I'm using Special Defense Skarmory with some Speed to outrun other Skarmories (though I've been outsped before). I don't care about Magnezones; I'm running Leftovers! (and it has survived Zone's TBolt before lol)
Now onto the actual suspects:
1) Deoxys-S: Okie I don't want to talk about this since it's going to be gone soon anyways.
Prediction: UBERRR (though Deoxys-S is *somewhat* manageable, but I still don't like it in OU regardless of its removal or not)
2) Garchomp: Garchomp is a beastly Pokemon. Many sets to choose from, amazing stats yadah yadah yadah...Garchomp helped make Skarmory more popular, with its resistance to Dragon and immunity to Earthquake. But by far the biggest weapon in Garchomp's arsenal is Sand Veil. I'm currently running SD/Sub/EQ/DClaw @ Lefties completely disregarding Skarmory's evidence, but teams without Skarm can be swept completely by it. Sand Veil is what makes me pretty borderline in deciding whether Garchomp should be OU or Uber. While more checks exist, including every other suspect lol and Scizor (who's CB Bullet takes 50% away from it), a Sand Veil turn can completely change the game. Ask Ancien Regime if you don't believe me. IF I were to vote Chomp Uber, it'd definitely because of Sand Veil. Garchomp to Garchomp speed ties are annoying, and even moreso with Sand Veil.
Though I'm not using it, CBChomp may as well be the most feared set. I predict though, that people will try to be creative with Chomp to bypass those annoying Skarmories
Prediction: Leaning towards OU, but...again...Sand Veil...really annoying...and a blessing sometimes.
3) Shaymin-S: Another Pokemon that pipularized Skarmory, particularly SDef Skarmory as it can absorb Seed Flare and Air Slashes, while Whirlwinding Subseeders and Brave Birding those unprotected. Shaymin-S hasn't been a problem yet as I use Skarmory, but then I take a moment to think. Skymin can be a real pest against many other teams, and 60% Air Slashes are evil. Whether it may be harassment using SubSeed (plus someone to paralyze things for SubSeedParaFlinch), or Scarfing to beat Deo leads, or using its base 120 SA in a Specs set or something...I've had huge problems with Shaymin-S in Ubers before, maybe someone else' feeling the pain
Prediction: ??? (Leaning slightly towards Uber, but we'll see...)
4) Latios- He's a monster. However, he's a bit overrated. Using suicide baits to absorb Draco Meteors, Latios has not posed problems for me...yet. I too use Latios and find him an incredible team member, smashing holes with Draco Meteor or crippling stall with Trick. However, despite his resistances it's a bit tough to send him in. I'm currently using Specs since that's what people go screaming about in the Latios suspect, but it's definitely not that threatening. Latios can't just spam Draco Meteors and be happy; it'll get trapped and die. Of course, this may be so since I use both Tar and Scizor, but they do other things than stopping Latios: TTar sets up the Sandstorm and Scizor kills stuff with Bullet Punch. Perhpas the only thing keeping Latios from being OU in people's minds is that it decimates the rest of the suspects.
Specs Latios is still the most common set, though I've ran into a DDLatios, and more MixLatios
Prediction: OU
EDIT: How is this thing uber lol? The more matches against Latios I run into, it only solidifies my opinion that it should be OU. But of course I'd rather not jump into conclusions.
5) Manaphy- I barely see this, but in the right hands he can be a pain to defeat. I've only heard short reports about Sub/TG/Beam/Surf Manaphy wrecking some stuff. Have not seen enough
Prediction: ??? (Slightly leaning towards OU because of the faster suspects out after it)
6) Latias- See Latios pretty much, except almost nonexistant.
Prediction: OU.
Currently focusing my attention on Chomp and Latios, because Chomp reminds me of the old metagame and I never did the Latios suspect
This metagame is certainly pretty interesting though somewhat annoying.
EDIT: I'm liking this metagame. Mainly because it's quite easy to abuse :D
EDIT2:
These are my first impressions on ladder. When I've laddered enough to make a clearer analysis, I would like to go back and see how much have changed.
But before we go anywhere:
Skarmory is the best Pokemon in the game. I'm using Special Defense Skarmory with some Speed to outrun other Skarmories (though I've been outsped before). I don't care about Magnezones; I'm running Leftovers! (and it has survived Zone's TBolt before lol)
Now onto the actual suspects:
1) Deoxys-S: Okie I don't want to talk about this since it's going to be gone soon anyways.
Prediction: UBERRR (though Deoxys-S is *somewhat* manageable, but I still don't like it in OU regardless of its removal or not)
2) Garchomp: Garchomp is a beastly Pokemon. Many sets to choose from, amazing stats yadah yadah yadah...Garchomp helped make Skarmory more popular, with its resistance to Dragon and immunity to Earthquake. But by far the biggest weapon in Garchomp's arsenal is Sand Veil. I'm currently running SD/Sub/EQ/DClaw @ Lefties completely disregarding Skarmory's evidence, but teams without Skarm can be swept completely by it. Sand Veil is what makes me pretty borderline in deciding whether Garchomp should be OU or Uber. While more checks exist, including every other suspect lol and Scizor (who's CB Bullet takes 50% away from it), a Sand Veil turn can completely change the game. Ask Ancien Regime if you don't believe me. IF I were to vote Chomp Uber, it'd definitely because of Sand Veil. Garchomp to Garchomp speed ties are annoying, and even moreso with Sand Veil.
Though I'm not using it, CBChomp may as well be the most feared set. I predict though, that people will try to be creative with Chomp to bypass those annoying Skarmories
Prediction: Leaning towards OU, but...again...Sand Veil...really annoying...and a blessing sometimes.
3) Shaymin-S: Another Pokemon that pipularized Skarmory, particularly SDef Skarmory as it can absorb Seed Flare and Air Slashes, while Whirlwinding Subseeders and Brave Birding those unprotected. Shaymin-S hasn't been a problem yet as I use Skarmory, but then I take a moment to think. Skymin can be a real pest against many other teams, and 60% Air Slashes are evil. Whether it may be harassment using SubSeed (plus someone to paralyze things for SubSeedParaFlinch), or Scarfing to beat Deo leads, or using its base 120 SA in a Specs set or something...I've had huge problems with Shaymin-S in Ubers before, maybe someone else' feeling the pain
Prediction: ??? (Leaning slightly towards Uber, but we'll see...)
4) Latios- He's a monster. However, he's a bit overrated. Using suicide baits to absorb Draco Meteors, Latios has not posed problems for me...yet. I too use Latios and find him an incredible team member, smashing holes with Draco Meteor or crippling stall with Trick. However, despite his resistances it's a bit tough to send him in. I'm currently using Specs since that's what people go screaming about in the Latios suspect, but it's definitely not that threatening. Latios can't just spam Draco Meteors and be happy; it'll get trapped and die. Of course, this may be so since I use both Tar and Scizor, but they do other things than stopping Latios: TTar sets up the Sandstorm and Scizor kills stuff with Bullet Punch. Perhpas the only thing keeping Latios from being OU in people's minds is that it decimates the rest of the suspects.
Specs Latios is still the most common set, though I've ran into a DDLatios, and more MixLatios
Prediction: OU
EDIT: How is this thing uber lol? The more matches against Latios I run into, it only solidifies my opinion that it should be OU. But of course I'd rather not jump into conclusions.
5) Manaphy- I barely see this, but in the right hands he can be a pain to defeat. I've only heard short reports about Sub/TG/Beam/Surf Manaphy wrecking some stuff. Have not seen enough
Prediction: ??? (Slightly leaning towards OU because of the faster suspects out after it)
6) Latias- See Latios pretty much, except almost nonexistant.
Prediction: OU.
Currently focusing my attention on Chomp and Latios, because Chomp reminds me of the old metagame and I never did the Latios suspect
This metagame is certainly pretty interesting though somewhat annoying.
EDIT: I'm liking this metagame. Mainly because it's quite easy to abuse :D
EDIT2:
agreeManiac said:
100% agree with this and people seem to be catching on - Skarmory is everywhere. In a metagame dominated by Scarf Garchomp, SubSeed Skymin, SDef heavy TTar and Scizor, Fire-attack-lacking Lati@s, and LO Mamoswine, Skarmory has tons and tons of opportunities to come in and lay down spikes or SR or just wall shit. I even had to revamp my team because I ran into four teams in a row with Skarm and it was giving me so much trouble.
I've been running this lead to confuse people and its been pretty good for most part.
@ Soft Sand / Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
Adamant Nature
EV: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Def
-Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Roar / Fire Fang
The key here is to confuse my opponents. CB, Scarf, SD? Either way some are scared to taunt this thing so Stealth Rock is almost a guarantee. Earthquake + Soft Sand OHKO's standard Metagross and Shuca Heatran. Since no one in the right mind would Taunt Garchomp, I can almost set-up Stealth Rock infront of suicide leads with relative ease. Jirachi leads suffer a OHKO depending on the EV spread. Since they fear of getting outsped, they usually switch out, unless they are scarf and they use Ice Punch. The last slot, I have been shuffling it around. Roar is useful against Hippowdon leads and Bronzong leads. While Fire Fang deals 35.33% - 41.92% on 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory's.
Ability: Sand Veil
Adamant Nature
EV: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Def
-Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw
-Roar / Fire Fang
The key here is to confuse my opponents. CB, Scarf, SD? Either way some are scared to taunt this thing so Stealth Rock is almost a guarantee. Earthquake + Soft Sand OHKO's standard Metagross and Shuca Heatran. Since no one in the right mind would Taunt Garchomp, I can almost set-up Stealth Rock infront of suicide leads with relative ease. Jirachi leads suffer a OHKO depending on the EV spread. Since they fear of getting outsped, they usually switch out, unless they are scarf and they use Ice Punch. The last slot, I have been shuffling it around. Roar is useful against Hippowdon leads and Bronzong leads. While Fire Fang deals 35.33% - 41.92% on 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory's.
- Metagross gets outsped and suffers a OHKO from Earthquake
- Heatran can't touch Garchomp unless it holds Hidden Power [Ice] which is rare
- Swampert checks me.
- Aeradactly suffers 2HKO from Dragon Claw and I usually get SR up most of the time
- Azelf suffers 2HKO from Dragon Clae and I usually get SR up most of the time. Psychic deals 35.71% - 42.14% where there is a small chance to 2HKO. Leftovers is there to provide a safe 3HKO with it. Explosion does laughable damage to 252 HP / 4 Def Garchomp (54.29% - 64.05%)
- Jirachi suffers OHKO from Earthquake from my experience.
- Bronzong is rare but I can't beat it unless I roar after I get SR down.
- Shaymin-S is a bit problematic but who doesn't have a tough time with it. Unless your running a Blissey lead. I usually try my luck for the first attack to see if it doesn't flinch me, if it flinches me I usually switch out.
- Hippowdon usually results to SR on the first turn and Earthquake can't touch me so I Roar it.
I've been saying this since long before you dolts voted him uber to begin with.
Anyway, since you drug me out to post, I might as well go ahead and do my own thing now...
I feel the same way about Garchomp as I always have. And since he hasn't been around since the proliferation of Scizor, he gets blown up by Bullet Punch too. Yeah, the other suspects keep him in check a bit but, suspect or not, any faster pokémon serves the purpose. The only thing the other suspects (read: the Latis) do is make it decide between Yache and Haban Berries for those that use the berries. :/ Perhaps people have started to learn how to deal with it finally? You know, those resist berries work against Garchomp too.
Gaymin is absolutely amazing. With the standard entry hazards and a switch into Leech Seed (or a Seed Flare SDf drop), a reasonable 1/3 chance for double flinch screws even its best "counters," such as Zapdos or the new-fangled SDf Skarmory, and it can even surprise Steels with Earth Power and/or HP Fire. (And since it's in a unique Speed tier, the Speed drop only hurts against other Shaymin-S!) It's also insanely fast -- only five non-ubers outspeed it -- making it very difficult to get a revenge kill without getting plastered first or sneaking a hit in before Substitute. Its only real weakness is the relative difficulty of switching it in, though it's less frail than some may think (roughly as "bulky" as Scizor, Kingdra, Zapdos) and has a workable set of resists. It's a stallbreaker, it's a revenge killer, and Scarfed it was arguably Deoxys' best check. What else can I say? Broooooooken.
I've had absolutely no issue with Manaphy. I'm sure a large part of it has to do with all the other Suspects outspeeding it. But would it impress me more even with them out of the way? With my team, probably not, but half my team outspeeds it and a 3HKO is worse-case scenario. ;/ Looking at it from another perspective, Tail Glow makes it a great stallbreaker and, though its middling Speed for a sweeper may have you believe it's easy to revenge kill, it's quite bulky and the resistance to both Bullet Punch and Ice Shard is notable. I have no doubt Manaphy would also make a fantastic support pokémon as a classic bulky water, being nigh-uncrackable in rain due to Rest/Hydration. So, no verdict yet. My only serious suspect team thus far has had no trouble handling it but I must keep in mind that few teams are so well-insulated against it, not to mention I have two other Suspects...
The Latis I don't have so much to say on. Just shame on most of you for completely ignoring Latias. Latios may be the more potent of the two for Choice sets but the vast majority of teams could replace it with Latias and not miss a beat anyway. (The real advantage is that Latios can mix it up with a physical moveset.) Keep in mind that Latias is still as strong as Salamence... if Salamence outsped Garchomp and could Trick its Specs onto troublesome Blissey. Latias' greater support options have also been entirely ignored thus far, doing double screen far better, learning Wish, and being a very attractive weather user for both Rain and Sun teams. If Latias isn't actually the better of the two, it's darned clone. I am not entirely decided on whether I consider them uber or not but I maintain that both belong in the same tier.
With Deoxys gone, haban berry is definitely the way to go, though a specs'd dragon pulse from Latios can eliminate even haban Garchomp, doing 71.51% - 84.08% to 4 Hp/ min versions.
And I agree with Jibaku about sand veil being a valid reason to keep Chomp in ubers. When your best bet against it is revenge killing with Lati@s, a miss because of sand veil usually means GG.
Edit: @Hipmonlee I don't know if you were answering me, but I meant to use a haban berry on Garchomp (not on his counters) to protect from Lati@s attempts at revenge killing it.
Berries dont work very well against Garchomp. The reason Garchomp is deadly is it has a 120 base power attack that is neutral to everything but steel. I dont think any dragons will survive an Outrage after a SD with any berry.. Maybe Salamence? I cant be bothered doing the maths, but at the very least it will be hurting like hell..
Have a nice day.
Have a nice day.
Garchomp is only proving manageable so far due to the presence of the other suspects like Lati@s and Skymin, imo. Should some of those go (and I think there's a good chance Latios and Skymin will), SD Yache/Haban Garchomp's going to go back to being much more difficult to counter. Even if Latias stays, Scarf Latias is easy enough to deal with through Scizor/Tyranitar to guarentee a pretty good chance of a Garchomp sweep.
For now, I'm agreeing with Jibaku that CB Chomp is the best set. CB Fire Fang 2HKOs the specially defensive Skarmory that everyone is using, as well as Bronzong, and does a huge amount of damage to everything else in the metagame with its STAB.
However, with Deoxys out of the way, and the reduced number of Scarfed Skymin that it will probably result in, ScarfChomp will probably be more effective than it is currently.
There's also the chance that ChainChomp could work well in the current metagame - pretty much the only thing that it loses to when it comes to speed that standard SD Chomp doesn't already lose to is other Garchomp, and the suprise factor could help it to rip through the kind of teams people are running fairly easily.
For now, I'm agreeing with Jibaku that CB Chomp is the best set. CB Fire Fang 2HKOs the specially defensive Skarmory that everyone is using, as well as Bronzong, and does a huge amount of damage to everything else in the metagame with its STAB.
However, with Deoxys out of the way, and the reduced number of Scarfed Skymin that it will probably result in, ScarfChomp will probably be more effective than it is currently.
There's also the chance that ChainChomp could work well in the current metagame - pretty much the only thing that it loses to when it comes to speed that standard SD Chomp doesn't already lose to is other Garchomp, and the suprise factor could help it to rip through the kind of teams people are running fairly easily.
Yeah, more people need to use CB Chomp. I just spam Dragon Claw at the start of the game and near the end after the steels are gone, use Outrage. Really does eat things up, and I'm not sure why more people don't use it. Also, is it me, or is it too dangerous to use Earthquake now? I'm always afraid of Skymin/Latios switchins heh.
Anyway, I've been laddering like crazy recently. Skymin itself isn't that good imo, it's that fucking Air Slash hax which gets me every time. Usually cripples one Pokemon before it goes down. Saw one Latias earlier aswell. All it did was get up a Reflect before it was gone. Latias is so outclassed by Latios. There's really no time to use a Support set now, unless you're running Stall, which it might stand a chance. All sweeper sets are better done by Latios.
Manaphy, yeah it's ok. I don't think it's Uber. Maybe it's something to do with Skymin and Latios being around, but I never really found it to be Uber to begin with in Stage 2, although it had a better chance at being more destructive. Now it's just having a hard time with Skymin and Latios.
Deoxys-S, yeah this is easily the most broken out of the lot. The late-game sweeper set just rips through all the weakened stuff, but it relies on how well your team is structured. It needs the opposing Pokemon to be weakened thanks to your teammate Pokemon to attempt a sweep. The Lead is a mixed bag depending on what they use. I run a Bronzong lead so if they use Reflect first turn, then they'll most likely Taunt me and get up Light Screen and sometimes SR. If they don't Reflect on Turn 1, then Gyro Ball just finishes them off.
The only one I see as maybe Uber atm is Deoxys-S. Although that's already been decided. lol.
Anyway, I've been laddering like crazy recently. Skymin itself isn't that good imo, it's that fucking Air Slash hax which gets me every time. Usually cripples one Pokemon before it goes down. Saw one Latias earlier aswell. All it did was get up a Reflect before it was gone. Latias is so outclassed by Latios. There's really no time to use a Support set now, unless you're running Stall, which it might stand a chance. All sweeper sets are better done by Latios.
Manaphy, yeah it's ok. I don't think it's Uber. Maybe it's something to do with Skymin and Latios being around, but I never really found it to be Uber to begin with in Stage 2, although it had a better chance at being more destructive. Now it's just having a hard time with Skymin and Latios.
Deoxys-S, yeah this is easily the most broken out of the lot. The late-game sweeper set just rips through all the weakened stuff, but it relies on how well your team is structured. It needs the opposing Pokemon to be weakened thanks to your teammate Pokemon to attempt a sweep. The Lead is a mixed bag depending on what they use. I run a Bronzong lead so if they use Reflect first turn, then they'll most likely Taunt me and get up Light Screen and sometimes SR. If they don't Reflect on Turn 1, then Gyro Ball just finishes them off.
The only one I see as maybe Uber atm is Deoxys-S. Although that's already been decided. lol.
Weel, it looks like Stall is creeping back in to the Suspect Ladder after being frightened off the first couple days. And for good reason too.
Lots of mean suspects here. My mind is already made up at this point.
Skymin: We have enough serene grace in OU as it is with Kiss and Jirachi. We really don't need anymore, and I'm saying that because they can both be a pain in the ass. Skymin in OU would set the bar of standard too high for people that are just beggining or lacking synergy. It would scare people off. Seed Flare is a ridiculous move. And Since Deoxy will be gone, if Shaymin-s is let in to OU somehow, there will be little stopping it from massacering whole teams with Choice Specs Airslash. Latias can't even keep it in line properly. Skymin is the luckiest most ridiculous pokemon invented to date. Please do not force people to use it by letting it into standard OU teir. It will wreck OU.
Garchomp: Gotta love Garchomp. It feels great to play with him in an OU enviroment again. ChoicedChomp, Subchomp, Standard Chomp it'll kick ass reguardless. Yes, Garchomp certainly doesn't seem all that ferocious in Stage 3. But that's partly because it's Stage 3 and is a more fast paced game, (what with all the suspects and such. ) Garchomp's ability can be utalized every. single. battle. So long as you have Tar or Hippo which usually won't be a problem because they rock. What is sand veil??! It's an insta-double-team is what it is. No doubt one of the factors that led Froslass to be BL was her snow cloak. The only diffrence is, Sandstream is present on almost every second or third match you encounter. My favorite Chomp right now is SubSD w/bright just for fun. (RE: Because I don't like you). Another factor that leads me to dislike Chomp being unleashed back into OU. Is the fact that Chomp outspeeds base 100 pokes, everytime if it's max speed. Thats like a Suicune trying to come in and speed tie with Chomp if he had a regular base 100 speed. With Chomp, there is no speed tie or chance of stopping it with anything less then base 103. Add sand veil, give it a yatche/haban, finally, remove the Skymin and Latios and Deoxy from OU and Chomp will become an ass again.
Manaphy: I like the idea of Manaphy in OU. It would give me (aswell as others) reason to build an OU Rain Team! And making a weather team that isn't a sandstorm team is good and should be encouraged! However, I was not on the suspect ladder when the testing of Manaphy was going on. So I cannot really comment on Manaphy because I've only seen a couple. But I think it has potential, and it can't possibley be worse then Jirachi X_x. Im trying to picture Jirachi with Scheme now.
Latios: Okay, ill run this calc right now. 319 Speed Specs Modest = 591 S.Atk. + 140 Draco + Stab = 210. That is a, 210 Base Move that hits everything except Steel type for Neutral. Coming off of a base 130 S.atk Latios. At that rate, Latios can still outspeed base 95 pokemon like Gliscor. Latios is neutral to SR, immune to T/spikes and ground. It is only 2x weak to Dragon, Ice, Bug, Dark. It doesn't even have a quad weak. Like with Skymin, this would push the bar of standard too high, should people be forced to take counter measures against this.
Latias: Yeah, okay that's fine with me. I had lot's of fun with Laitas. I am in dissonance over how big a deal 20 base makes. Bottom line is that one of the Lati's got into OU and it kicks all kinds of ass as it is. Please don't put the more powerful one in. (im sure I can convince you, that one Lati is enough. Just like one baby is enough in China).
Deoxyribonucleic-E: Call me crazy (stfu) But. I really don't have anything against Deo-e... He's fairly frail. His overall defenses average around 70 Base. The best thing about him is his speed. Who wouldn't wanna have a Deoxy to take out that Ttar that just pulled two DD cuz it had a lum berry when your Rotom-H was trying to burn it. You would want Deo then! Scizor murders it with Pursuit and BP. It would be cool to have another spiker in OU. These things aren't really that hard to counter tbh as lead DualScreen/Taunt/Trick Deo's fail very, very hard. But since everybody is saying that Deo overcentralizes (already in the first week). Then I guess majority rules.
Lots of mean suspects here. My mind is already made up at this point.
Skymin: We have enough serene grace in OU as it is with Kiss and Jirachi. We really don't need anymore, and I'm saying that because they can both be a pain in the ass. Skymin in OU would set the bar of standard too high for people that are just beggining or lacking synergy. It would scare people off. Seed Flare is a ridiculous move. And Since Deoxy will be gone, if Shaymin-s is let in to OU somehow, there will be little stopping it from massacering whole teams with Choice Specs Airslash. Latias can't even keep it in line properly. Skymin is the luckiest most ridiculous pokemon invented to date. Please do not force people to use it by letting it into standard OU teir. It will wreck OU.
Garchomp: Gotta love Garchomp. It feels great to play with him in an OU enviroment again. ChoicedChomp, Subchomp, Standard Chomp it'll kick ass reguardless. Yes, Garchomp certainly doesn't seem all that ferocious in Stage 3. But that's partly because it's Stage 3 and is a more fast paced game, (what with all the suspects and such. ) Garchomp's ability can be utalized every. single. battle. So long as you have Tar or Hippo which usually won't be a problem because they rock. What is sand veil??! It's an insta-double-team is what it is. No doubt one of the factors that led Froslass to be BL was her snow cloak. The only diffrence is, Sandstream is present on almost every second or third match you encounter. My favorite Chomp right now is SubSD w/bright just for fun. (RE: Because I don't like you). Another factor that leads me to dislike Chomp being unleashed back into OU. Is the fact that Chomp outspeeds base 100 pokes, everytime if it's max speed. Thats like a Suicune trying to come in and speed tie with Chomp if he had a regular base 100 speed. With Chomp, there is no speed tie or chance of stopping it with anything less then base 103. Add sand veil, give it a yatche/haban, finally, remove the Skymin and Latios and Deoxy from OU and Chomp will become an ass again.
Manaphy: I like the idea of Manaphy in OU. It would give me (aswell as others) reason to build an OU Rain Team! And making a weather team that isn't a sandstorm team is good and should be encouraged! However, I was not on the suspect ladder when the testing of Manaphy was going on. So I cannot really comment on Manaphy because I've only seen a couple. But I think it has potential, and it can't possibley be worse then Jirachi X_x. Im trying to picture Jirachi with Scheme now.
Latios: Okay, ill run this calc right now. 319 Speed Specs Modest = 591 S.Atk. + 140 Draco + Stab = 210. That is a, 210 Base Move that hits everything except Steel type for Neutral. Coming off of a base 130 S.atk Latios. At that rate, Latios can still outspeed base 95 pokemon like Gliscor. Latios is neutral to SR, immune to T/spikes and ground. It is only 2x weak to Dragon, Ice, Bug, Dark. It doesn't even have a quad weak. Like with Skymin, this would push the bar of standard too high, should people be forced to take counter measures against this.
Latias: Yeah, okay that's fine with me. I had lot's of fun with Laitas. I am in dissonance over how big a deal 20 base makes. Bottom line is that one of the Lati's got into OU and it kicks all kinds of ass as it is. Please don't put the more powerful one in. (im sure I can convince you, that one Lati is enough. Just like one baby is enough in China).
Deoxyribonucleic-E: Call me crazy (stfu) But. I really don't have anything against Deo-e... He's fairly frail. His overall defenses average around 70 Base. The best thing about him is his speed. Who wouldn't wanna have a Deoxy to take out that Ttar that just pulled two DD cuz it had a lum berry when your Rotom-H was trying to burn it. You would want Deo then! Scizor murders it with Pursuit and BP. It would be cool to have another spiker in OU. These things aren't really that hard to counter tbh as lead DualScreen/Taunt/Trick Deo's fail very, very hard. But since everybody is saying that Deo overcentralizes (already in the first week). Then I guess majority rules.
While I agree that Skymin is probably uber from what I've seen so far...I think that reasoning is complete nonsense. We don't ban pokemon because they might make it difficult for someone with a team that isn't particularly well made, we ban pokemon when we're left with no other choice and because banning them will improve the metagame.
With the speed mania surrounding Deoxys for the most part going with it, Skymin is once again going to be incredibly dangerous and difficult to deal with. I think the set that will decide whether or not Shaymin is uber is the SubSeed set with Air Slash and Seed Flare. SubSeed wrecks stall teams, even a Blissey that hasn't been hit by a Seed Flare defense drop is going to be taking 20-25% per turn, and the same applies to any other potential counter such as specially defensive Skarmory. Offensive teams will find it equally difficult to deal with once it gets behind a Sub, which it can manage easily enough due to it being great at forcing switches.
I think that while the hax aspect of Skymin is irritating to go against, that's not what makes it uber, it's the unique combination of movepool and ability, as well as its fantastic speed which will make it uber.
With the speed mania surrounding Deoxys for the most part going with it, Skymin is once again going to be incredibly dangerous and difficult to deal with. I think the set that will decide whether or not Shaymin is uber is the SubSeed set with Air Slash and Seed Flare. SubSeed wrecks stall teams, even a Blissey that hasn't been hit by a Seed Flare defense drop is going to be taking 20-25% per turn, and the same applies to any other potential counter such as specially defensive Skarmory. Offensive teams will find it equally difficult to deal with once it gets behind a Sub, which it can manage easily enough due to it being great at forcing switches.
I think that while the hax aspect of Skymin is irritating to go against, that's not what makes it uber, it's the unique combination of movepool and ability, as well as its fantastic speed which will make it uber.
I'd encourage you guys not to start to make statements like this is OU,Uber etc on each suspects; it seems a bit too early myself, but to each their own. I'm hoping I'll get to a chance to actively play on this latter starting next week when my schedule frees up a bit.
Just to ask Jump and / or Aeolus. Once the voting for this stage begins, how does a Suspects previous vote result factor into this? If Garchomp is voted OU this time around, does that vote take precedent over its isolated suspect Uber vote or does it result in further examination etc? Or maybe you are planning to account for this in the paragraphs somehow (e.g. how are you weighing the previous isolated vote in your decision this round? etc.) Forgive my ignorance if you've mentioned this elsewhere, but I believe myself and a few others are curious.
Just to ask Jump and / or Aeolus. Once the voting for this stage begins, how does a Suspects previous vote result factor into this? If Garchomp is voted OU this time around, does that vote take precedent over its isolated suspect Uber vote or does it result in further examination etc? Or maybe you are planning to account for this in the paragraphs somehow (e.g. how are you weighing the previous isolated vote in your decision this round? etc.) Forgive my ignorance if you've mentioned this elsewhere, but I believe myself and a few others are curious.
Must disagree with this. Latios does the Double-screen thing a lot better than Latias. This is when Memento plays it's role. Memento is a move that faints your poke (in this case, Latios) and lowers the enemy poke Atk and SAtk by two stages (-2 Atk, -2SAtk). Latias can't learn this move, so Latios is better than it's sister at doing the job done IMO.
This is why good double screeners need to find a way to "free pass" the screens, via Explosion, U-turn, etc. But in my teams I tryed all, and Latios with Memento is the best double-screener I used so far.
Here we are... Loving this new metagame, it's quite fast and simple in strategy, but everything seems to... just work, really. None of the suspects seem significantly overpowered and all can, really, be beaten with proper thought. If Deoxys has left, then I expect that it won't significantly change the metagame other than lowering the speed requirements, which many have spoken out against as being too high.
Anyway, here are my thoughts on the top 8 in last month's metagame:
Anyway, here are my thoughts on the top 8 in last month's metagame:
- Scizor: Probably even more useful than it was for the last few months, Scizor can check 5/6 of the suspects to a certain extent with the threat of CB Bullet Punch and it has the defences and typing to remove the threat of a sweep by itself in most cases. The Swords Dance set also appears to be a nasty surprise in this metagame for those who aren't prepared for it. I can confidently assert that Scizor's popularity will grow again if the metagame stays as it is.
- Salamence: Currently experiencing a great reduction in usage owing to the reintroduction of competition in the form of Latios and Garchomp. With the level of speed in the metagame currently Salamence cannot quite be as fearsome as it once was with its Dragon Dance and Specs sets. However, I can quite easily see Mixmences making a comeback, as they are difficult to switch into and can tear Stall teams apart with proper prediction.
- Gyarados: From what I have seen, there are far fewer Bulkydos than before the merge, and Gyarados doesn't really have the power to combat Garchomp as a physical sweeper. However, the Dragon Dance sets have, in my opinion, a fair amount of potential given proper support as Gyarados has the defences to set up, and to plough through slower teams. Still expected to remain a vital part of Bulky Offence teams.
- Heatran: Strong but silent, it has the potential to remain a helpful anti-metagame pokemon, however Latios and Garchomp check it quite effectively. It should remain a solid choice, however, though generally eschewed in favour of more common special attackers.
- Infernape: Mixed sweeper sets cannot hurt Latios significantly, and are easily outsped and killed into the bargain. Furthermore, Lead sets are still useful but cannot stop Deoxys getting Stealth Rocks up. I expect it should eventually make a comeback as a late sweeper, as its ability to outspeed and OHKO Scizor, Tyranitar and Garchomp is needed.
- Metagross: Lead sets are barely touched by Deoxys lacking Superpower; however out of this niche Metagross is losing popularity owing to the large Garchomp population, and even as Leads they cannot stop Dual Screen Deoxys. I believe that they will continue to be a popular choice as lead, and sets such as Agiligross will become more common, as it can stop most of the Suspects barring Manaphy.
- Tyranitar: Still as popular as ever; the support it grants to Garchomp is incredibly useful, as it activates Sand Veil and can deal with the Latis easily, should they irritate you. Ironically though, it is a popular choice for a switch-in by Garchomp. Still, it's an excellent team choice in this metagame.
- Swampert: The bulky water that I've seen most, they currently provide okay checks to ScarfChomps but Skymin is really taking their power from them. If Shaymin stays in OU, I expect all the Bulky Waters to be significantly less common.
Wait a minute, I'm really confused about something here:
How in the world are people having MORE trouble with Skymin than they did on the previous test? Seriously, it's not as if the SubSeed set wasn't used last time, and people seemed to have no trouble whatsoever dealing with it. Instead, a lot of people voted it uber last time because of its "hax".
There is no reason why people should be having more trouble with Skymin this time around. In addition to stuff like Zapdos, Bronzong, Skarmory, Blissey, Togekiss, Scizor, Dragonite, Crobat, Clefable, Regice, which are almost complete counters (the only way Skymin can beat any of these is by relying on luck, which is extremely risky since one screw-up usually means a dead Skymin)...there are two more suspects that are almost complete counters: Latias and Latios. Then there's also all of the shit that can revenge-kill it. People say that Magnezone helps it so much, but Magnezone is only really reliable against Skarmory, since Bronzong has Earthquake, and Scizor has Superpower.
That's one of the reasons why I'm just a little confused here. Are people just not willing to change their team at all? Yes, Skymin does put a lot of pain on the other suspects besides Lati@s, but no one said people have to use all 6 (now 5) on the same team...
SubSeed Skymin really cannot do much against Zapdos, especially since it has Heat Wave and Roar to screw it up. Bronzong has shit like Trick Room (don't forget, this CAN be used as a weapon and not just team support) which screws up Subseed, plus Gyro Ball hurts like hell if Skymin isn't behind a Sub. Skarmory can Whirlwind away and Taunt (plus get an easy kill with Brave Bird). Blissey can outstall Subseed with Wish/Protect, plus kill with Ice Beam/Flamethrower (though it does have a good chance of getting haxed by outstalling). Togekiss just needs to Encore anything, and it will have fucked Skymin (plus it can kill with Air Slash). Scizor just ruthlessly kills Subseed Skymin. Dragonite can't be flinched, and can set up on Skymin with Dragon Dance (or set up its own sub to protect from Seed Flare drops) and it can kill easily. Just like how Crobat can destroy Shaymin in UU, it can destroy Skymin in OU with the Taunting and Brave Birding, plus it's actually faster. Clefable isn't even touched by Leech Seed, so Skymin has no choice but to try and attack Clefable, but it's in a lot of trouble if it gets Encored, and Ice Beam is a OHKO. Skymin is in a lot of trouble against Lati@s, because one Draco Meteor means that they're dead, plus they can set up screens & such. Even Articuno & Moltres, though they're both hurt by Stealth Rock, can take on Skymin pretty well, Whirlwinding him away, and Articuno even has the deadly Ice Shard. Out of all of these, Bronzong is the only one that doesn't have a recovery move, but the others can outstall Subseed Skymin.
Subseed Skymin is annoying, but is by no means invincible like a lot of people seem to be implying. Remember that Skymin does not have a recovery move besides the weak Synthesis, so it cannot stall forever. Also, if Skymin is forced out, it's very difficult for it to come in again unless it's on a Grass/Ground move. Stealth Rock, and even SS/Hail are huge annoyances for this guy. Skymin may be able to hax a lot of stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that the hax is unreliable. Often times, from my experience using Skymin, I find that if he can't flinch his opponent, he's either going to die, be crippled, or come very close to it.
I'd argue that Skymin is not a pokemon for newer players who may think that Skymin is just a brainless pokemon to use. He's actually quite difficult to use, because of the amount of Risk/Reward analysis needed. For instance, you have to decide whether it's a good idea to keep trying to flinch something to get it into KO range with Seed Flare, or whether to leave and let something else try to kill the opponent. Relying on the flinches is very risky, but if it works, you get a big reward...just make sure it isn't a reward for your opponent (which it has a high chance of being). Also, you have to manage your switch-ins very well, since Skymin is very weak to 3 common types (and weak to 2 rarer types), and can only really come in safely on Grass/Ground attacks due to the average defenses and SR weakness. Plus it's crippled by every status effect except Burn, which still stops it Subseeding abilities. Therefore, although it has good defenses, its typing and lack of recovery change that to average, making it a high maintenance pokemon that people must be careful using.
Also, for people complaining about Scarfmin-S and how it outspeeds everything...no shit. If you stick a Choice Scarf on a pokemon with 127 base Speed, of course it's going to outspeed everything. I personally find Scarf Jirachi to be a lot more threatening, since it actually has 100% accurate moves, a stronger flinching move, better typing, better defenses, and it can cripple a wall with Trick. Plus, it isn't Scizor food like Skymin is. All of the extra speed that Skymin gets isn't very useful anymore with DX-S gone, since it's only really helpful for outspeeding Timid ScarfGar (which I rarely ever see anymore).
How in the world are people having MORE trouble with Skymin than they did on the previous test? Seriously, it's not as if the SubSeed set wasn't used last time, and people seemed to have no trouble whatsoever dealing with it. Instead, a lot of people voted it uber last time because of its "hax".
There is no reason why people should be having more trouble with Skymin this time around. In addition to stuff like Zapdos, Bronzong, Skarmory, Blissey, Togekiss, Scizor, Dragonite, Crobat, Clefable, Regice, which are almost complete counters (the only way Skymin can beat any of these is by relying on luck, which is extremely risky since one screw-up usually means a dead Skymin)...there are two more suspects that are almost complete counters: Latias and Latios. Then there's also all of the shit that can revenge-kill it. People say that Magnezone helps it so much, but Magnezone is only really reliable against Skarmory, since Bronzong has Earthquake, and Scizor has Superpower.
That's one of the reasons why I'm just a little confused here. Are people just not willing to change their team at all? Yes, Skymin does put a lot of pain on the other suspects besides Lati@s, but no one said people have to use all 6 (now 5) on the same team...
SubSeed Skymin really cannot do much against Zapdos, especially since it has Heat Wave and Roar to screw it up. Bronzong has shit like Trick Room (don't forget, this CAN be used as a weapon and not just team support) which screws up Subseed, plus Gyro Ball hurts like hell if Skymin isn't behind a Sub. Skarmory can Whirlwind away and Taunt (plus get an easy kill with Brave Bird). Blissey can outstall Subseed with Wish/Protect, plus kill with Ice Beam/Flamethrower (though it does have a good chance of getting haxed by outstalling). Togekiss just needs to Encore anything, and it will have fucked Skymin (plus it can kill with Air Slash). Scizor just ruthlessly kills Subseed Skymin. Dragonite can't be flinched, and can set up on Skymin with Dragon Dance (or set up its own sub to protect from Seed Flare drops) and it can kill easily. Just like how Crobat can destroy Shaymin in UU, it can destroy Skymin in OU with the Taunting and Brave Birding, plus it's actually faster. Clefable isn't even touched by Leech Seed, so Skymin has no choice but to try and attack Clefable, but it's in a lot of trouble if it gets Encored, and Ice Beam is a OHKO. Skymin is in a lot of trouble against Lati@s, because one Draco Meteor means that they're dead, plus they can set up screens & such. Even Articuno & Moltres, though they're both hurt by Stealth Rock, can take on Skymin pretty well, Whirlwinding him away, and Articuno even has the deadly Ice Shard. Out of all of these, Bronzong is the only one that doesn't have a recovery move, but the others can outstall Subseed Skymin.
Subseed Skymin is annoying, but is by no means invincible like a lot of people seem to be implying. Remember that Skymin does not have a recovery move besides the weak Synthesis, so it cannot stall forever. Also, if Skymin is forced out, it's very difficult for it to come in again unless it's on a Grass/Ground move. Stealth Rock, and even SS/Hail are huge annoyances for this guy. Skymin may be able to hax a lot of stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that the hax is unreliable. Often times, from my experience using Skymin, I find that if he can't flinch his opponent, he's either going to die, be crippled, or come very close to it.
I'd argue that Skymin is not a pokemon for newer players who may think that Skymin is just a brainless pokemon to use. He's actually quite difficult to use, because of the amount of Risk/Reward analysis needed. For instance, you have to decide whether it's a good idea to keep trying to flinch something to get it into KO range with Seed Flare, or whether to leave and let something else try to kill the opponent. Relying on the flinches is very risky, but if it works, you get a big reward...just make sure it isn't a reward for your opponent (which it has a high chance of being). Also, you have to manage your switch-ins very well, since Skymin is very weak to 3 common types (and weak to 2 rarer types), and can only really come in safely on Grass/Ground attacks due to the average defenses and SR weakness. Plus it's crippled by every status effect except Burn, which still stops it Subseeding abilities. Therefore, although it has good defenses, its typing and lack of recovery change that to average, making it a high maintenance pokemon that people must be careful using.
Also, for people complaining about Scarfmin-S and how it outspeeds everything...no shit. If you stick a Choice Scarf on a pokemon with 127 base Speed, of course it's going to outspeed everything. I personally find Scarf Jirachi to be a lot more threatening, since it actually has 100% accurate moves, a stronger flinching move, better typing, better defenses, and it can cripple a wall with Trick. Plus, it isn't Scizor food like Skymin is. All of the extra speed that Skymin gets isn't very useful anymore with DX-S gone, since it's only really helpful for outspeeding Timid ScarfGar (which I rarely ever see anymore).
The problem with all of the counters you mentioned with the possible exception of Blissey is that they all fall after a SpDef drop and an Air Slash flinch or the appropriate hidden power. After a SpDef drop and SR Skymin usually only needs one flinch to take down Togekiss and Dragonite, and two to take down Zapdos and Lati@s. Bronzong, Skarmory and Scizor (although Skymin has to look out for Bullet Punch) all fall to HP Fire after the SpDef drop. Even Blissey can die to enough flinches. The problem with Skymin is the combination of the SpDef drop and 60% flinch chance means that with some luck, NOT an exorbitant amount of luck but with a disturbingly average amount of luck, Skymin can defeat just about anything in the game one on one. Add to that the fact that nothing can revenge kill it besides 130 base pokemon and scarfers and the case for Skymin being uber starts to look pretty strong.
The problem with Skymin seems to be similar to the problem with OHKO moves. The hax takes away from strategy with that pokemon, because Skymin can easily fall back on "When in doubt, hope for a flinch" same with OHKO moves. "No other recourse? No way for me to kill that? Well then, 30% chance I don't lose!"
edit: Hi, long time lurker making a first post, nice to meet you all..
edit: Hi, long time lurker making a first post, nice to meet you all..
No, the case for Skymin looking uber does not look strong. You do realize that the scenario you just mentioned is very improbable, right?
First, you have to make sure to use Seed Flare as they switch in (and it needs to hit + make sure it does the drop), and then Air Slash actually needs to flinch (and it needs to hit) x amount of times, and SR needs to be up 100% of the time.
In order to just pull off the Seed Flare drop + the Air Slash flinch on the switch...that's only a 38% chance of happening when factoring in the accuracy and stuff. Even then, you're required to predict perfectly with your Seed Flares, because if you don't use Seed Flare on the switch, everything suddenly becomes a lot harder to beat. If Skymin actually stays in on those things, every turn it's there, it's risking its life because any of those pokemon can cripple it or finish it off in one hit (or both) if they get a chance to hit. This is a big reason why the case for it being uber isn't very strong.
Then, you mentioned that those counters can be finished off with the Hidden Power of choice. However, you do realize that this means he'll have to give up Earth Power, have no protection against status, or not be able to SubSeed very well, right? Without Earth Power, a whole new set of counters springs up, and Skymin is even more screwed than before.
Also, there are a lot of things that can revenge-kill it. For example, anything with Ice Shard can revenge-kill it. There are a lot of pokemon that run Choice Scarf, so I don't see why you're just brushing them off. Anything that has base 70 Speed or higher can be scarfed to be faster than Skymin.
P.S. I'm adding Regice to those counters.
@below poster: Sure, you can sub on the switch and Seed Flare from behind, but then you have Air Slash, and you have to pick between HP and Earth Power. Missing either makes you lose against a huge amount of pokemon. And what do you do if one of the counters is a phazer like Zapdos or Skarmory? Or an Encorer like Togekiss or Clefable? A Trick Roomer like Bronzong?...etc,etc.
I'll admit that Skymin has been far more of a headache for myself this time around, though I'm really not sure why - I think it could be due to an increase in the Subseed set which I never really saw the first time around. I still don't think it's uber, but it's much more annoying than it ever was during the first time we tested it, when I barely considered that thing a threat. That said, Latios is still far more dangerous than Skymin, and really should be thrown out of this thing as soon as possible. Am also seeing a lot more Manaphys than over the previous few days.