np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)

[wildfire393]

On a side note, I haven't seen a single Gengar in this metagame. WOnder why?

Gengar has 130 Special Attack and 110 Speed. Aka the exact Special Attack and Speed stats of Latios, only with worse typing and the rest of his stats lower.
Also Shaymin outruns him massively and is another good contender for high special attack and speed. Plus with the prevalence of Scizor and Blissey, it's not a metagame friendly to Gengar.

On an unrelated note, has anyone tried a rain team in Suspect? Seems to me Blissey and Specially Defensive Bronzong have plenty of opportunity to switch in and set it up, Manaphy is pretty beastly with rain support, and Latios could benefit from rain as well (Pseudo-STAB on Surf and 100% accurate Thunder over Thunderbolt both benefit him greatly). Throw in a pair of standard rain abusers/starters like Ludicolo and Kingdra and you've probably got yourself a pretty solid team.

 

[Head Smash]

Guess my previous post was deleted for some reason (not enough substance?) so I'll say this again: yeah, I'm using a Rain Dance team. It's working pretty well, but Timid Scarfmin-S (which people are actually running!) is a major pain for rain sweepers in general.

I haven't found Manaphy to be significantly better on a rain team than it is on a normal team, so I'm just not using it. Maybe I'll start using the Tail Glow set at some point down the line. I can see where it'd be great with rain support; maybe I haven't been using the right set.

As for Latios, it's proven itself to be very useful on a rain team because of Thunder mostly, which takes care of annoying Water types that like to abuse your rain or stall it out. Plus, Latios can set up Rain too. And it gets Memento, which allows one of your rain sweepers to come in and set up. His sister Latias works in a similar fashion, except that she gets Healing Wish, which is arguably more useful. Lunar Dance Cresselia works pretty well on a Rain team, on that note (that's what I'm using).

 

[bigfoots]

On an unrelated note, has anyone tried a rain team in Suspect? Seems to me Blissey and Specially Defensive Bronzong have plenty of opportunity to switch in and set it up, Manaphy is pretty beastly with rain support, and Latios could benefit from rain as well (Pseudo-STAB on Surf and 100% accurate Thunder over Thunderbolt both benefit him greatly). Throw in a pair of standard rain abusers/starters like Ludicolo and Kingdra and you've probably got yourself a pretty solid team.

I've been using a rain team, although it doesn't include Manaphy. Kingdra in the rain is great--it outspeeds and OHKO's Garchomp and Lati@s easily, especially with the rain stopping the sand that can allow Sand Veil to take effect. It can also 2HKO most Manaphy and Skarmory as well. I've been using a mixed Kingdra with extra speed to ensure that it can out-speed scarfed Garchomp in the rain. I've also been using Kabutops, who can take out a good deal of threats with Waterfall and Stone Edge, with Aqua Jet to suprise priority users who have already taken damage late-game.

Specs Latios in the rain is good, but is still walled by most of its normal counters, as the boost in power that Surf gets still doesn't allow it to get by Blissey and, when locked into Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor, the SpD steel walls either.

I use a Jolteon and Metagross to set up rain, as Jolteon can abuse it with Thunder and I like the additional offensive power that Metagross has over other users of Rain Dance.

 

[wildfire393]

I've been using a rain team, although it doesn't include Manaphy. Kingdra in the rain is great--it outspeeds and OHKO's Garchomp and Lati@s easily, especially with the rain stopping the sand that can allow Sand Veil to take effect. It can also 2HKO most Manaphy and Skarmory as well. I've been using a mixed Kingdra with extra speed to ensure that it can out-speed scarfed Garchomp in the rain. I've also been using Kabutops, who can take out a good deal of threats with Waterfall and Stone Edge, with Aqua Jet to suprise priority users who have already taken damage late-game.

Specs Latios in the rain is good, but is still walled by most of its normal counters, as the boost in power that Surf gets still doesn't allow it to get by Blissey and, when locked into Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor, the SpD steel walls either.

I use a Jolteon and Metagross to set up rain, as Jolteon can abuse it with Thunder and I like the additional offensive power that Metagross has over other users of Rain Dance.

The problem with mixed Kingdra is that Kingdra needs nearly maxed speed with a positive nature to beat Choice Scarf Shaymin in the rain, who can otherwise lay quite a beatdown on it. Kabutops has things even worse - even with Maxed Positive speed, he fails to outrun Scarfed Garchomp, Latis, or Shaymin, and his Aqua Jet only lands Neutrally on Garchomp and resisted on everyone else.

 

[Nachos]

Why are people arguing that Latios, Skymin and Garchomp are too good? I don't find any of them Uber at all..

People say that Latios is Uber because it 2HKO's your Scizor when you switch it in. Firstly, why the fuck would you switch in a Scizor on Latios in the first place? If you do switch in Scizor, then you deserve to lose it, as you made a bad move. Instead, I would rather send in something like Bronzong, which eats up Draco Meteor/Surf nicely, and can either use Gyro Ball or try to put something to sleep with Hypnosis.

Specs/Scarf versions (especially Scarf, damn that thing is overrated), fall easy to Bronzong, Metagross, Jirachi (aka: the common Steels) and Blissey if it hasn't got Trick. I personally use Timid Specs and I find it hard to 'throw out Draco Meteor's' like everybody says. Shit like Metagross and Tyranitar come and either Pursuit me (one of Latios' biggest weaknesses), or use Meteor Mash/Earthquake, or even worse, use Explosion. LO versions are okay, but taking SR damage, Sandstorm (common battle conditions, plus Tyranitar and Garchomp seem to be on nearly every team) and LO recoil don't make this Uber at all. It's weakened to the fact that it cannot switch into anything, unless on an Earthquake.

Next is Garchomp. As various people have said, CB is easily the best set out of the lot. I personally run Adamant for power, but other people can run Jolly for Speed if they like. All I know is that this is Garchomp's best set, and it has flaws.

I can't use Earthquake AT ALL. Letting something like Skymin/Latios get a free switch in is like putting your hand in a fire. I'm restricted to using Dragon Claw, Fire Fang and Outrage. Then again, if I do make a bad prediction, then that is my fault, not that x Pokemon is Uber now that it can do whatever it wants.

Bronzong, easily the best anti-metagame Pokemon out there, even more then Skarmory, takes Dragon Claw and Outrage with ease. And responds with Gyro Ball. I don't think anybody would risk firing off random Fire Fangs, it would kinda suck if they switched in Heatran.

ScarfChomp. How can anyone have any problems with this I don't know. Dragon Claw is too weak to do any damage, and Outrage can only be used after you're sure 100% all the Steels are gone. Fuck knows if you're running Jolly, Speed isn't everything.

SDChomp, the thing that got Garchomp banned in OU. I didn't find it Uber back then, I don't find it Uber now. The amount of lower players that use BrightPowder SubSD Garchomp in Sand is amazing. It's literally a last resort for them. However, unlike back in September, where everyone thought if a Pokemon had no counter, it'd be Uber, people actually know now that even without a counter, a Pokemon can be OU.

You might use a Bronzong (seriously, he is this good) with Gyro Ball to take out various Substitutes while they beg for a miss. At the end of the day, even if you do lose one Pokemon to damage Garchomp, Garchomp will still be weakened enough for Latios/Scizor to finish it off. A Pokemon doesn't need a counter to be OU, if it is manageable, like SDChomp is, then what is the problem? It seems to me that every time that somebody has a problem with taking a Pokemon out, they wish to call for it to be Uber. Anyway, Draco Meteor from Specs Latios KO's Garchomp even if it's holding a Haban berry. I usually switch Latios in on the SD and proceed to KO the Garchomp.

The only possible Uber thing I could see about Garchomp is Sand Veil, other then that, I don't see any Uber material here.

Finally is Skymin. I've yet to run Stall on the ladder, which I might do in the upcoming weeks. Until then, you honestly can't be serious if you're using an Offensive team and are calling this to be Uber. Air Slash hax. The only thing this thing can do, and then it might miss.

ScarfMin, LO/Expert Belt and SubSeed are the only sets I see, and the only sets that can actually do some sort of damage. Scarf is stopped by by Steels bar Scizor if it isn't running HP:Fire, and it's almost suicide to be locked into a Ground move now, so Earth Power is out fo the question.. If that's the case then switching into a Seed Flare/Air Slash, both of which haven't got 100% accuracy is heaven, especially if Garchomp is coming in and Sand is up. If they have HP:Ice, then hello Steels and co.

LO/EB, freedom of moves is nice, shame random Scarfers and Scizor with Bullet Punch shuts this down. LO Recoil with SR isn't all that good either. This set isn't bad, it's better then the other versions, that's for sure. Still, I don't find this threating at all. Other ScarfMin can outspeed and KO with HP:Ice/Air Slash (provided it doesn't miss). Plus, it should be noted that if SR is up (which it usually is) this thing can't come in twice if Scizor is still around. Bullet Punch will just KO.

And finally I come to SubSeed, Skymin's most 'broken' set. Okay, so first of all, Leech Seed isn't even programmed to hit 100% of the time. That's Skymin's main feature of the set, gone. Without a Sub up, Skymin is gonna have a really hard time doing what it's meant to do. Maybe SubSeed eats up Stall, I dunno as I haven't played with Stall yet, but I know for sure that SubSeed isn't a problem for Offensive teams, SR. Bullet Punch and a non-100% hit ratio for Leech Seed shows that.

 

[Tagrineth]

I like how the main checks you list to all of these "non-uber" pokemon are each other.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

People say that Latios is Uber because it 2HKO's your Scizor when you switch it in. Firstly, why the fuck would you switch in a Scizor on Latios in the first place? If you do switch in Scizor, then you deserve to lose it, as you made a bad move. Instead, I would rather send in something like Bronzong, which eats up Draco Meteor/Surf nicely, and can either use Gyro Ball or try to put something to sleep with Hypnosis.

You realize that not every team can fit a Bronzong on it, and that even if Bronzong is on your team it is extremely difficult to switch into Latios more than once because of its lack of recovery, right? "Yeah Bronzong can come into any move Rayquaza has except for Fire Blast, lets make it OU!"

Sure, Bronzong can come into Latios' Draco Meteor once...but what do you do the next time Latios switches in? Take another Draco Meteor for 45% and get 2HKOd?

Bronzong, easily the best anti-metagame Pokemon out there, even more then Skarmory, takes Dragon Claw and Outrage with ease. And responds with Gyro Ball. I don't think anybody would risk firing off random Fire Fangs, it would kinda suck if they switched in Heatran.

Or you could just use SD + 3 attacks and beat anything that comes in...

ScarfChomp. How can anyone have any problems with this I don't know. Dragon Claw is too weak to do any damage, and Outrage can only be used after you're sure 100% all the Steels are gone. Fuck knows if you're running Jolly, Speed isn't everything.

Yeah, being the best revenge killer in OU really sucks for Garchomp. "Rayquaza is SO EASY TO REVENGE if its locked into Outrage, just use a Steel-type! Lets make it OU too!!!"

However, unlike back in September, where everyone thought if a Pokemon had no counter, it'd be Uber, people actually know now that even without a counter, a Pokemon can be OU.

The only possible Uber thing I could see about Garchomp is Sand Veil, other then that, I don't see any Uber material here.

Actually "everybody" never thought that a pokemon is uber simply because it has no counters. In fact, that was one of the main reasons for keeping Garchomp OU at the time (people have since realized its broken).

Although "has no counters" is pretty much a shoe-in for the offensive characteristic of being Uber....good luck arguing "oh it has no counters but it is definitely not capable of sweeping with little to no effort"

Finally is Skymin. I've yet to run Stall on the ladder, which I might do in the upcoming weeks. Until then, you honestly can't be serious if you're using an Offensive team and are calling this to be Uber. Air Slash hax. The only thing this thing can do, and then it might miss.

If you are seriously saying that Air Slash hax is "the only thing this thing can do" then I'd suggest actually using Skymin.

And finally I come to SubSeed, Skymin's most 'broken' set. Okay, so first of all, Leech Seed isn't even programmed to hit 100% of the time. That's Skymin's main feature of the set, gone.

What? You miss 15% of the time even though you'll be behind a sub and suddenly the main feature is "gone'? Talk about a non sequitor...

Without a Sub up, Skymin is gonna have a really hard time doing what it's meant to do. Maybe SubSeed eats up Stall, I dunno as I haven't played with Stall yet, but I know for sure that SubSeed isn't a problem for Offensive teams, SR. Bullet Punch and a non-100% hit ratio for Leech Seed shows that.

Bullet Punch, the move that doesnt OHKO Skymin, is really a surefire stopper for Skymin! Since Skymin is faster than an overwhelming portion of the metagame...you basically need a huge powered priority move to even think of checking Skymin. How many pokemon have that? Lucario's LO ES doesn't even do 45% to Skymin.

I know for sure that Rayquaza isn't a problem for offensive teams. Stealth Rock and Scizor's Bullet Punch show that.

 

[iKitsune]

I'd just like to say that i finally got to play some matches on Suspect and its really fun my thoughts briefly so far.

I think so far that only Latios is Uber its insanely good. Ive been using it as a revenge killer and i barely have to even use Draco Meteor. Dragon Pulse is awesome and performs exactly what i need with Trick the thing is insanely good and really this is what seperates it from the other suspects. Admittedly its not so effective having lost its item but neverthelss its still amazing. My tactic when using it has been to switch it in and use trick to get Blissey and then I immediately switch out having identifyed their their pursuiter to my Skarmory who easily beats most responses ie. mainly scizor. From there i use Spikes to wear the steel down. Soon i will be able to sweep with that steel having been removed. Im going to try a sub latios but i wonder how i will beat blissey. I intend to abuse the shit out of Latios.

Latios is ultimately an insanely good revenge killer. If they manage to pursuit me then i just set up with Lucario who if you can get chomps health low enough with Spikes has a nice time sweeping I have to beware of Rotom though.

My opinions of the other suspect are that Garchomp is possibly uber.

Skymin and Manaphy easily the least Uber at this stage in proceedings.

 

[Legacy Raider]

ScarfMin, LO/Expert Belt and SubSeed are the only sets I see, and the only sets that can actually do some sort of damage.

I think people are really underestimating the sheer power of a Modest SpecsMin.

Shaymin @ Choice Specs
Modest | 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Fire

I've been making the most of this amazing wallbreaker on several of my teams. Take a look at these numbers:


Seed Flare vs 148/0+ Blissey: 31.1 - 36.8%
After SR, if the first Seed Flare gets the drop, Blissey goes down to the second (after Leftovers):

12.5% + 31.1% - 6.25% + 62.3% = 99.65%


HP Fire vs 252/92+ Bronzong: 52.1 - 61.5%
Guaranteed 2HKO after SR and Leftovers.


HP Fire vs 252/252+ Skarmory: 64.1 - 76.0%
The anti-metagame Pokemon isn't surviving two of those.

HP Fire vs 252/0 Skarmory: 95.2 - 112.6%
Guaranteed OHKO after SR.

Seed Flare vs 252/0 Skarmory: 30.5 - 35.9%
Guaranteed 2HKO after SR if first gets the drop, and Skarmory has Shed Shell.


Seed Flare vs 4/0 Latios: 46.5 - 54.8%
Guaranteed 2HKO after SR even if you don't get the drop. Modest SpecsMin with a 30 Spe IV for HP Fire still outspeeds max Speed Timid Latios by 2 points.

Air Slash vs 4/0 Latios: 58.8 - 69.1%
Easy revenge kill if you get the flinch.


Seed Flare vs 4/0 Garchomp: 97.5 - 115.4%
Guaranteed OHKO after SR.


The list goes on. You can really just spam Seed Flare against the majority of teams and just blast them apart, or weaken them beyond the point of retaliation. It's a ridiculously good Specs user, so use it people!

 

[Nachos]

You realize that not every team can fit a Bronzong on it, and that even if Bronzong is on your team it is extremely difficult to switch into Latios more than once because of its lack of recovery, right?

Sure, Bronzong can come into Latios' Draco Meteor once...but what do you do the next time Latios switches in? Take another Draco Meteor for 45% and get 2HKOd?

What I'd do is sack Bronzong. He's done his job by forcing out Latios the first time and maybe getting up Rocks or putting something to sleep. I'd then proceed to switch in Scizor while Latios is stuck on Draco Meteor and simply use Pursuit.

And from what I've been reading in this thread, it seems that lots of people can fit a SDSkarm on their team. So, instead of Bronzong we have Skarmory, another anti-metagame Pokemon. Latios won't fire off Thunderbolts incase of Garchomp, so Draco Meteor is another good option. Skarm can live through DM and set up some Spikes, Roost or whatever when Latios switches out.

Or you could just use SD + 3 attacks and beat anything that comes in...

Ok, so if I'm feeling risky and think that this is a SDChomp. I send in Latios while you SD. If I get hit and die, I'll send in Skarm/Zong, which is on every version of my team.

Yeah, being the best revenge killer in OU really sucks for Garchomp.

Yeah, it may be the best but it doesn't give problems, well for me at least.

Actually "everybody" never thought that a pokemon is uber simply because it has no counters. In fact, that was one of the main reasons for keeping Garchomp OU at the time (people have since realized its broken).

Although "has no counters" is pretty much a shoe-in for the offensive characteristic of being Uber....good luck arguing "oh it has no counters but it is definitely not capable of sweeping with little to no effort"

What is your definition of 'sweeping'? Take out one Pokemon then faint is a sweep for SDChomp?

If you are seriously saying that Air Slash hax is "the only thing this thing can do" then I'd suggest actually using Skymin.

I've been using Skymin since Deoxys got banned, and I find it decent, but not Uber material as a whole. About non-SubSeed versions, what can it actually do to make it Uber? Seed Flare with it's wonky accuracy? Yeah, that SDef drop is very nice, but if it misses or doesn't drop, that sucks.

What? You miss 15% of the time even though you'll be behind a sub and suddenly the main feature is "gone'? Talk about a non sequitor...

Huh? If you miss with Leech Seed behind a Sub, and I attack that Sub, you'll have no sub..

And the selling point of subseed Skymin is to use Leech Seed. I'm running a set that requires an 85% chance to truely take affect.

Bullet Punch, the move that doesnt OHKO Skymin, is really a surefire stopper for Skymin! Since Skymin is faster than an overwhelming portion of the metagame...you basically need a huge powered priority move to even think of checking Skymin. How many pokemon have that? Lucario's LO ES doesn't even do 45% to Skymin.

I never said that Bullet Punch is a surefire stop to Skymin.

And if the Skymin is Scarfed? As I said, it's suicide to use choiced Ground moves now with the Skymin, Latios and Skarmory about. What can Skymin hit Lucario with if it's Scarfed? HP:Fire?


Tagrineth: Aren't we playing Stage 3, with all the suspects together? So what if they balance eachother out?

 

[Kay [Old]]

What I'd do is sack Bronzong. He's done his job by forcing out Latios the first time and maybe getting up Rocks or putting something to sleep. I'd then proceed to switch in Scizor while Latios is stuck on Draco Meteor and simply use Pursuit.

.....So your strategy in general is sacrifice something and use pursuit? I mean, that's pretty much saying that Latios is generally going to kill something whenever it's used, which from my perspective would definitely fit the Offensive clause. Jrrrrrr summed it up best earlier in another post - people talk about how Latios has many options to check but when pressed give either 1. Revenge-killing using Pursuit and 2. Blissey. I really don't like either, especially considering that most Pursuiters are Banded, and a Choice Banded Pursuit is probably the worst attack in the game to be locked into.

And the selling point of subseed Skymin is to use Leech Seed. I'm running a set that requires an 85% chance to truely take affect.

.....You don't like an 85% chance of an absolutely deadly strategy taking effect? I'll admit, I don't really know if Skymin is broken or not, but Subseeding is absolutely deadly, and to claim that it's not a good strategy because Leech Seed can miss sometimes is patently ridiculous.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Leech Seed has 90 Accuracy, by the way.

 

[Tagrineth]

If they balance each other out and are primarily each others' balancing factors, that doesn't make for a particularly good metagame.

 

[Jibaku]

In before someone says "Garchomp or Lucario sets up after Latios is Pursuited", what if they have a close to reliable counter to those two? That would mean they'll be forced out and Latios goes to waste after Pursuit. Granted, I won't deny that Pursuit bait -> set up is an amazing strategy, but there are times where your Latios gets Pursuited and you still can't set up, depending on when Latios is knocked out.

Of course, don't rely on sacrificing something just to stop Latios. If you want to sacrifice something make sure that it's either extremely low in health or has done its job.

@j7r:
I'm pretty sure people are running SDef Zong in this metagame, so I'll say this: Latios does not deal 45% damage to Zong with Timid SpecsMeteor (Modest sucks). The maximum amount of damage Latios can do to a Max/Max+ SDef Zong is 38%, which is far from 45%. Of course, since people are most likely not going to use 252/252 we can assume, for now, that 38% is the average damage Draco Meteor does to Bronzong. That would mean Latios would need to come in a couple of times to get rid of Zong by Meteor Spam. I won't lie though Latios doesn't come in that easily despite its resistances, because stuff like another Latios' Specs Surf/TBolt + SR + Sandstorm cuts up >40% of its health, so best it can do is switch in twice or revenge kill.

Here let me do some calcs of stuff Latios might want to switch in

Timid Specs Thunderbolt from another Latios + SR + one turn of Sandstorm:
71+37+18 = 126/302 = 41.7% (Minimum)
84+37+18 = 139/302 = 46% (Maximum)

If you're really good at prediction you might actually try swapping Latios into Latios.

Naive MixMence Fire Blast does one less damage. Rash MixMence Fire Blast does roughly 1.1x the damage

No Attack Skarmory's Brave Bird + SR + Sandstorm
(This is when you're switch happy and you swap Latios in and he eats a Brave Bird)
129 + 55 = 184/302 = 61% (Minimum)
153 + 55 = 208/302 = 69% (Maximum)

Naive Infernape's LO Fire Blast + SR + Sandstorm
100 + 55 = 155/302 = 51.3% (Minimum)
118 + 55 = 173/302 = 57.3% (Maximum)

Hasty ScarfTran's Fire Blast + SR + Sandstorm
90 + 55 = 145/302 = 48% (Minimum)
107 + 55 = 162/302 = 53.64% (Maximum)
Which means Heatran can revenge Latios with Fire Blast the next time Latios switches in "unscathed".

And finally, if Latios decides to attack, he loses 18 HP more.

Of course there are more stuff Latios can switch into. Either on his Earthquake immunity or whatever else. However, Latios does risk being hit by a super effective attack from many things, such as being Ice Beamed by Manaphy , etc, etc, etc...This section was there to prove that Latios does not come in all that easily despite his base 110 SDef and a nice list of resistances.

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Common steels and Blissey are too common in this metagame for Meteor spam to demolish everything. Did I mention Draco Meteor can miss? Because I miss at the worst times possible :(

And let everyone be reminded of this

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Latios does not sweep teams with little effort. It's always in fear of a Pursuiter being around, being forced out quite a couple of times from SpecsMeteor drop, etc. If, word by word the offensive characteristic makes Latios Uber, then Lucario would be Uber as well considering it sweeps with less effort than Latios thanks to Close Combat and ExtremeSpeed, whereas Specs Latios, the only set that really ticks people off, can't sweep due to SA drop, unreliability of Surf and Thunderbolt, and Dragon Pulse doesn't OHKO stuff like Swords Danced Close Combats. Latios is a good sweeper, he's an insane denting machine, but doesn't sweep with little effort I'm afraid.

But of course it's useless arguing since my opinion seems to contrast a good number of people.

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Still up to now, Skarmory is the best anti metagame Pokemon, holding off Shaymin-S (which is probably Uber btw, but again I don't care), Garchomp (if you avoid Fire Fang), absorbing Draco Meteors from Latios (who will be reluctant to throw out Thunderbolts if choiced, due to Garchomp), and setting up Spikes which turns Latios into an absolute monster. Though I hate to say it, Latios absolutely tears up stall with Skarmory around, because Blissey finds itself pressured to switch in due to double switches and Trick. Stall teams aren't that great tbh because of today's spikestacking metagame that absolutely destroys the only thing walling Special Attacks. Add Rotom-A and you've got an anti-spinner that also eats up stall team remains.

When I battled moi on ladder he pointed out something in my team I haven't noticed- I play like stall in the early game, then proceed to Latios and Garchomp for cleanups.

Suspect "metagame" is really fun. Too bad it probably won't be around forever...

 

[Flashstorm1]

I don't know if the following question has been brought up, but...

Will all accounts belonging to the same IP Address be counted towards's each suspects individual suspect EXP, or must all suspects be used under a sole account?

I ask because I use different accounts for each suspect until I find a set that I feel is the most effective for my main account to use.

 

[Valantaro]

I've been dedicated to the Suspect ladder as of late, and I can't believe how much the metagame has shifted. In the beginning, I saw like 3-4 Suspects on every team with some Steel walls (I have to admit, my earliest Suspect team was sadly similar to that description). Thankfully, things have calmed down, and with Deoxys-S gone I've noticed a more fun metagame. Apparently, Garchomp hasn't hit the ladder as hard as I thought it would. I was expecting it to be taking the role of the Swords Dancer on every team, but I mainly see Scarf, Band, and (not joking) Support sets. SD Chomp is still around, but it's not as abundant as I'd expect it to be. Usually, I can just switch Latios in and kill it. Yache Berry isn't as common as it used to be due to Lati@s being so common, so it's been repalced with Haban Berry (I find it a waste since Latios still kills Garchomp through Haban Berry).

I really like Skymin, especially the SubSeeder. It can kill Latios with multiple flinches, still outruns things like Gyarados even after a single Dance (assuming Adamant), and is just generally badass with Seed Flare. Offensive sets have a harder time being effective, what with Scizor and co. being common. I guess they could threaten the SubSeeder, but at least SubSeed Skymin can outstall things like Metagross without Agility or Ice Punch granted it hits it with Leech Seed on the switch. I haven't seen any Specs Skymin, which is cool since they'd be really annoying to deal with (totally managable, however). Scarf and Substitute are the most common ones I see.

Latios is just plain awesome. The raw power it has with Draco Meteor tears pretty much anything that doesn't resist it a new one, and even things like Bronzong and Metagross who are supposed to be counters have trouble switching-in multiple times due to lack of recovery as well as being easy set up fodder for many other things (Manaphy comes to mind, especially if Metagross lacks Thunderpunch). Manaphy isn't that common at all, at least from experiences, so I won't voice my opinion on it. From facing it the few times I did, however, I noticed how Latios and Skymin just basically...kill it. SubSalac is something that seems like it could be problamatic. Sort of like a stronger (?), yet slower SubPetaya Empoleon.

I've seen one Latias, and it didn't do anything memorable. I'm guessing it could do better vs. Skymin that Latios could, though Latios's higher stats in offensive would make it a better choice. Honestly, I think people like Latios because it's blue . I've seen some Dual Screeners, though Latios is superior if the team is offensive, due to Memento (which is REALLY annoying, since I'm seeing that Latios + Gliscor + Metagross combination again).

As for non-Suspects, Skarmory is just incredible. I thought it was just a stupid, hyped Pokemon at first, but it really is effective. It averages 2 layers of Spikes per game, and walls the hell out of Latios, Skymin, Scarf Garchomp, and even takes on things are used as counters to these Pokemon, like Metagross, Bronzong, and Mamoswine. There's little for me to say other than that it is, in my opinion, the best Pokemon to use as a defensive buffer in this stage. It gets the job done, it gets the Spikes out, and it does all this while having a 50% recovery move, a way to remove stat ups, and even a moderately powerful 120 STAB move to abuse (meaning that it doesn't just stall opponents out, it can even go offensive and KO them with some SS and Spikes damage). It fits on basically every team, which is awesome since I'm gonna try stall later and definately am looking for giving Skarmory a spot.

Bronzong is such a beast when it comes to stopping Latios, though not as effective in my opinion. This is due to the fact that it has no reliable recovery. That really hurts, especially since Draco Meteor is still doing uncomfortable damage, despite being resisted. I used Macho Brace Bronzong earlier on, and with Trick, it could stop special AND physical threats, which totally screwed over things like DD Gyarados lacking Taunt. Metagross is common, offensive or defensive, which is nice because that's just more opprotunities for Skarmory to come in and set up Spikes. Blissey is coming out of the grave to stop Latios and friends, but sadly, Latios can fuck up everyone I've mentioned with Trick (bar Macho Brace Bronzong. There it ends up screwing itself over). It's always nice to have a Leftovers on your Latios for an extended sweep =-)

Offensively, there are a few Pokemon I'm really impressed with. Mamoswine is like...the Suspect killer. Every Suspect bar Manaphy is easy picking for Mamoswine, and while Steel-walls that float wall it, there are ways around that. Late-game Dancers like Gyarados and Tyranitar are very effective, despite being unable to outrun Skymin (if Gyarados runs Jolly it does outspeed it, however). Tyranitar is especially effective, mainly since it can take Draco Meteors and such and outrun things like Latios with a Jolly nature after a Dragon Dance. It also handles Steel-walls that don't invest in Defensive EVs handily. For example, Skarmory takes about 80% from Stone Edge and Fire Punch with a boost, meaning that with a little residual damage; it's dead. Crunch rapes Latios and friends, and Manaphy takes 81% minimum from Stone Edge after a boost. Skymin is the only Suspect that really bothers it, but then again, guess who comes back for some fun? Yeah, Skarmory.

As for anything being Uber or not, I ironically find that with all the Suspects in the same metagame, they sort of balance each other out enough to prevent any of them from truly becoming Uber. Maybe that's just me trying to keep all the Suspects together, but yeah, I'm enjoying this metagame a lot ;D

 

[Blln]

The one thing I am having an issue with is that, based on all of my experience on the suspect ladder, which I would say is pretty extensive as I've been playing it non-stop all week, Latios and Skymin are the only two that look blatantly Uber, with Garchomp being a possibly uber, and Manaphy and Latias being fine. The problem though, is that I feel a large part of the reason why Manaphy is not Uber is because it is so easy to revenge kill with Latios, Skymin, and even sometimes Garchomp. Because of this I am having a very tough time determining whether Manaphy deserves to be Uber, or whether it would be Uber if Skymin and/or Latios were removed from the game. The same thing also is an issue with Garchomp. I haven't had the slightest bit of trouble with Garchomp, but then again my team also has LO Latios and HP Ice Skymin. I firmly believe Latios and Skymin are too much for OU, but I also feel by banning them that in turn makes Garchomp and Manaphy possibly Uber themselves, so as of now I am stuck on what the best course of action to actually take is. It seems to me like it's either all the suspects or none of them (aside from Latias).

 

[Tagrineth]

Well, the whole point of Stage 3 is that Suspects will be removed in phases. In a week or two there will be a vote to decide if anything should be removed yet.

Deoxys-S skipped the vote because it was so blatantly overpowered.

 

[d2m]

I've been playing suspect for a while now and I've only seen one person on every single team that was decent:

Skarmory.

I don't know if it's the nature of the suspects, but I've been trying any OU and UU pokemon I can think of, and the only ones that can easily take him down are Setup sweepers that can't setup safely on any suspect, like SD Lucario or DD Gyarados, and even then they don't OHKO him. He can wall every suspect almost in perpetuity and be able to hit at least Shaymin back hard with Drill Peck/Brave Bird. With Sdef EVs he doesn't fear the Fire Blasts that one normally uses to kill him, and people with powerful physical fire attacks (read Flare Blitz) are free switch ins to suspects by every suspect bar Shaymin.

As mentioned a CB Fire Fang from Garchomp does pretty good damage, but allows for Gyarados or Latios to switch in (both OHKO back with Ice Fang/Draco Meteor (or Dragon Pulse) respectively).

CB Fire Fang vs 6 HP Gyarados: (15.96% - 18.67%)
CB Fire Fang vs 6 HP Latios: (25.83% - 30.46%)

I'm starting to wonder why Sdef Skarm hasn't been used in OU as he walls pretty much anything, especially combined with Blissey passing status around and a Rotom form to Spin Block. With those 3 as a defensive core, even the suspects have obscene trouble breaking stall, even a Stallbreaker Manaphy can't take Rotom Thunderbolts forever.

Add in that suspects like Garchomp and Latios are durable enough to switch in on resisted hits and sweep extremely well after residual damage takes its toll. Skymin can also assist in stalling with Subseed or sweep lategame by outspeeding and picking things off with Air Slash (Specsmin is very good at late game sweeping).

I'm just not seeing a way to break stall with these suspects, thus I'm betting (I haven't gotten there because I like offense too much, but I've played this style before) the stall vs stall matches just come down to prediction: Who misreads their opponent first. Which I heartily approve of, but the invalidation of so many strategies as a result is stupid.

Also, I think this overcentralization on Skarmory (and to a lesser extent, the Skarmbliss combo) is hurting the testing of the suspects. Suddenly we have someone who wholey fulfills the defensive characteristic, but is not one of the suspects we're testing. I get the feeling you can't get a full test going when the only viable strategy is to run stall with at least 2 team members decided for you.

 

[Zach]

I've been playing suspect for a while now and I've only seen one person on every single team that was decent:

Skarmory.

With Sdef EVs he doesn't fear the Fire Blasts that one normally uses to kill him

Attacks from a Max SpAtk neutral nature non-Life Orb, non-Specs Heatran:

-Fire Blast: 359 SpAtk vs 196 SpDef & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 474 - 558 (141.92% - 167.07%)

-Flamethrower: 359 Atk vs 196 Def & 334 HP (95 Base Power): 374 - 444 (111.98% - 132.93%) 

-Lava Plume: 359 SpAtk vs 196 SpDef & 334 HP (80 Base Power): 318 - 374 (95.21% - 111.98%)(66.67% Chance to OHKO)

 

[tab]

The Fire Blasts were things like non-LO, neutral nature, no SAtk EV ones from Garchomp, not a max attack Heatran.

 

[Mr.E]

And those never killed Skarm either, just do uncomfortably high amounts of damage. They still do. SpD EVs just let it soak Draco Meteors combined with Roost, and occasionally help with neutral special attacks, like random Surfs.

 

[d2m]

Attacks from a Max SpAtk neutral nature non-Life Orb, non-Specs Heatran:

-Fire Blast: 359 SpAtk vs 196 SpDef & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 474 - 558 (141.92% - 167.07%)

-Flamethrower: 359 Atk vs 196 Def & 334 HP (95 Base Power): 374 - 444 (111.98% - 132.93%) 

-Lava Plume: 359 SpAtk vs 196 SpDef & 334 HP (80 Base Power): 318 - 374 (95.21% - 111.98%)(66.67% Chance to OHKO)

LO Modest Heatran Fire Blast vs 4 HP Gyarados: (42.17% - 49.70%)

Outspeeds and OHKOs with EQ


LO Modest Heatran Fire Blast vs 252 HP Blissey: (30.25% - 35.71%)

Walls forever

All this assuming it doesn't miss, and if it takes a +speed nature it fails to 2HKO Latios and Gyarados.

Look, Skarmory walls damn near everything but a powerful STAB fire attack. Blissey soaks the special ones, Gyarados, Latios, Rotom, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Suicune, basically any bulky water all commonly found on suspect stall teams can take it on.

In order for it to beat a Skarmbliss combo, it has to be powerful and mixed, Heatran isn't mixed, the only thing it can do is Explode versus anything with high SpD, like Blissey, and those are extremely forseeable.

With enough SpD to take non STAB Fire Blasts from Garchomp, Tyranitar, and other physical threats that could pose problems to Blissey, Latios, and the like, plus enough defense to wall their physical attacks, it poses a serious problem to offensive teams.

 

[Rurushu]

And those never killed Skarm either, just do uncomfortably high amounts of damage. They still do. SpD EVs just let it soak Draco Meteors combined with Roost, and occasionally help with neutral special attacks, like random Surfs.

They used to 2HKO skarmory. With Max Sdef, a neutral nature chomp will never be able to 2HKO skarmory with fire blast.

Neutral Nature Garchomp using fire blast X min sdef/max HP Skarmory

196 Atk vs 176 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 192 - 228 (57.49% - 68.26%)
Always 2HKO (ignoring accuracy)

Neutral Nature Garchomp using fire blast X max sdef/max HP Skarmory

196 Atk vs 262 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 130 - 154 (38.92% - 46.11%)
13.28% of 2HKOing Shed Shell Skarmory with Stealth Rock (ignoring accuracy)

Things like HP Fire Metagross needs both 252 SATK EVs AND Life Orb to 2HKO, so max sdef skarmory says "FUCK YOU" to mixed mons without a lot of Satk and/or high BP moves.

 

[Bologo]

In order for it to beat a Skarmbliss combo, it has to be powerful and mixed, Heatran isn't mixed, the only thing it can do is Explode versus anything with high SpD, like Blissey, and those are extremely forseeable.

No, Heatran does not need to be mixed to beat this combo. You seem to be forgetting a once popular Heatran set labelled "Taunttran":

Heatran @Leftovers
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 SpD
Timid Nature

- Taunt
- Toxic
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast
- Earth Power

This Heatran murders the SkarmBliss combo. It easily OHKOs Skarm with the Fire move, and stops Bliss's recovery with Taunt, and it can then Toxic/attack until Blissey dies. Obviously Blissey is going to switch out, but that still qualifies as beating the combo.