Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Munch

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Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
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252+ Atk Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 328-386 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 252-298 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not to say wether Chien-Pao is broken or not (i personally think it should be banned).

Don't manually edit calcs, they can often portray misleading information, especially since all the calcs you showed are actually with Tera Dark, Choice Band and Sword of Ruin (although the last one can easily be implied). Even if you mention the specifics before, it's usually good practice to keep the calcs as they are, especially for people that skim threads, who will see weird calcs and assume they're true.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 328-386 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 252-298 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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I have recently started playing more OU, and to be honest, before playing lots of OU I thought "why not ban Chien-Pao?," but now I think that a Chien-Pao ban is not necessary. My team was not specifically built to destroy Chien-Pao, but it still works well against it. I run a niche Mismagius with focus sash that has memento and will-o-wisp, and this has been helpful against Chien-Pao leads. My Dondozo works easily against Chien-Pao. Chien-Pao is not an overpowered threat to the meta, and it's not a Pokemon where you lose if it's not on your team. I believe that it should not be banned, but maybe suspected once Pokemon Home connection comes out, because if Chien-Pao isn't overbearing right now, I doubt that it will be after the Pokemon Home inclusion.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Mismagius with focus sash that has memento and will-o-wisp
DOWN IN OHIO
SWAG LIKE OHIO
I like the ohio flutter mane strats, eventually ill make a big post about it
252+ Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 100+ Def Dondozo: 135-159 (30.6 - 36%) -- 42.9% chance to 3HKO
Bro, I think you need to look at this

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 238-280 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO

Even if you're running SD and other tera, you can just plan for donzo and tauros and there, that's your whole game, and even if you still not convinced, I'm gonna copypaste the calcs M24 already made

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 328-386 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 252-298 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

ALSO, fun fact, its :Chesnaught: time

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 360-426 (94.7 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 113-134 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 20.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 170-204 (44.7 - 53.6%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 128-151 (33.6 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Chien-Pao: 206-246 (68.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And you guys though he couldn't do it

these are all resists btw, SD does even more
 
my friend and I did a quick run thru of the SPL games this week after noticing chien pao's win% drop from 70% in week 1 to 60% in week 2 to 55% in this most recent week, and we made a few notes. for reference, the W/L represents the Pao user's result.
no pao vs no pao (-)
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) [note: block garg fucks up gxes team, neither pao has potential to win thanks to resistances, plentiful sacks and hazards which ultimately benefit BlazingDark since his garg went in beforehand]
no pao vs no pao (-)
no pao vs pao (L) [pao dies to surprise tera]
pao vs no pao (W) [note: pao comes out at the very end when the game is already over, doesn't absolutely nothing special]
pao vs no pao (W) [note: pao gets a nice defence drop forcing a kill, pao kills the low hp pult bc it can tank sball, solid this game but u cant call this broken]
pao vs no pao (W) [note: michaelderbeste2 brought mu fish team, pao doesn't do much as game is very linear]
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) [note: pao doesn't really do anything special this game from either side, one dies to sash lead the other gets a surprise crit putting raptor so far ahead to where volc + pult clean up this is hax rather than pao being broken]
no pao vs no pao (-)
no pao vs pao (L) [note: pao kills the lead which is cool i guess but yet again this mon appears far from broken, ima got a bit unlucky vs moon]
pao vs pao (-) [note: lots of paras in The Franklin's favor, his pao is sacked tho his set looks weird, 1TL's pao gets a couple kills but it ultimately doesn't matter as The Franklin just has to play it safe to ensure victory]
pao vs pao (-) [note: chien pao does absolutely nothing this game as Savouras uses it as a sack and TPP never has to send it out thanks to hydromisses]
pao vs pao (-) [note: talahs pao was going to clean but got haxed, that position was thanks to iron moth luring pex otherwise would've much harder for them, pao does very little for fc]
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) [note: pao does nothing impressive for either side each game. dekzeh uses it to kill a sack and rkill the thing that essentially swept his team but had to choicelock into shard meaning anything on robjrs team kills it back he just chose to do it w his pao]
no pao vs pao (L) [note: pao has real potential to be a threat but the choice lock limitation makes it tough in this instance]
no pao vs pao (W) [note: pao cleaned up pretty nicely this game tho opp was also using cryogonal]
pao vs no pao (W) [note: pao also does a good amount this game]

if u don't wanna watch all of these games we made a summary of what actually occurred, with the number of times it occurred on the left
4- nothing special due to linearity of game at the point it comes out
3 - surprise killed (tera fire brute bonnet, sash meow, tera fairy iron moth)
2 - sd pao cleans up very nicely
1 - gets 2 kills (defense drop helps)
1 - kills a tusk when it shouldn't have (crits)
1 - kills a lead taking 80 in the process does nothing else
1 - sacked/dies for nothing
1 - pao gets 2 kills but this is because the opponent played as safe as possible to ensure victory
1 - pao gets sacked
1 - pao doesn't come out at all
1 - pao should've won but got unlucky burn
1 - pao kills a sack then rkills a valiant that killed half its team, choicelocks into ice shard and ensures an L
1 - pao gets a rkill that anything could've done
1 - band paos choicelock gives it trouble when having to deal with kingambit + ghosts (pult and skele) + dark resist (tusk) + ice resist (skele)


so, in general, after factoring out hax what we discovered was...

6 - got played linearly and doesn't change the flow of the game at that point
3 - fucked on the opponents team thanks to sd and coverage
3 - got a couple kills or heavy chip on opponents mons didn't change the outcome of the game (Lycan vs Franklin, Star vs Nat, bea vs lunala)
3 - got fucked on by tera or sash
2 - died doing nothing
2 - died in a 1v1 vs another mon after inflicting heavy chip
1 - didn't come out


this summary, i think, accurately shows chien paos place in the meta. its not instantly broken to the point where it completely changes games and oftentimes teams are very well suited in handling it to the point where they wouldn't straight up lose. it did a good job cleaning in these two instances and wouldve in a third once the opponents team got really weakened. the set that people had initially been complaining about (band) and which has been talked about excessively in here alongside a ton of scary calcs failed to decimate in a single SPL game this week and in fact the choicelock proved a limitation in two instances, wouldve in a third if it didnt get haxed. it also had trouble with being locked into attacks from band or got smacked up by well worth teras


as i thought, people are adapting to what chien pao can do and are finding ways to deal with it. the fever pitch that was band pao for a brief but notable moment in the meta has started to fade, so as a result, i believe pao should remain in the tier.
This is super interesting and suggests that chien-pao isn't truly centralizing or broken at top level despite being one of the strongest mons in the tier. I've been going back and forth but am currently leaning towards voting no ban. Not only does counterplay exist but I'm also just not crazy about banning the premier offensive threat every time a new one emerges. Unless a mon endangers the competitive integrity of the game then it should probably remain legal.
 
no it most certainly is not the most threatening mon from team preview, that is entirely dependent on the team and the sets, u assuming that it is is why i say shit like "fail to decimate" because u and others in here hype it up so much based on all these scary calcs which didn't materialize in any of the spl games this week. stacking resistances to pao would be unhealthy if the resistances were ass. having to deal with great tusk being on most teams is painful for locking into dark type attacks, kingambit makes both its stabs a nightmare and don't try to click sacred sword with the abundance of ghosts or a pivot like toxapex because getting the play wrong is a massive momentum drain. prediction isn't skewed in favor of the pao player vs these kinds of teams and they're effective when not facing pao so don't act like they're some tauros level garbage
I'd frankly say it is when one misprediction from the opponent means something gets chunked for a lot of damage, if not outright KOed. Also, two of those mons you listed lack recovery, and all three often end up being used for - and taking hits from - other mons.

This is super interesting and suggests that chien-pao isn't truly centralizing or broken at top level despite being one of the strongest mons in the tier. I've been going back and forth but am currently leaning towards voting no ban. Not only does counterplay exist but I'm also just not crazy about banning the premier offensive threat every time a new one emerges. Unless a mon endangers the competitive integrity of the game then it should probably remain legal.
I'd say looking at stuff like that is deceptive because naturally, the players in something like SPL will play around something like that. Either way, what little "counterplay" there is is shaky as fuck, and in my book, nothing screams "endangering the competitive integrity of the game" like smashing the premier walls like they're paper cups, and outspeeding nearly every mon for good measure.

I run a niche Mismagius with focus sash that has memento and will-o-wisp
The fact you have to go that far speaks for itself, honestly.
 
I run a niche Mismagius with focus sash that has memento and will-o-wisp, and this has been helpful against Chien-Pao leads.
Personally, I'd say suicide trades just to burn Pao and drop its stats, not even KOing it outright, aren't in your favor more often than not. Otherwise, Sturdy Avalugg would be considered a great counter to Chi-Yu that balances it out since it can live a hit and fire back with Body Press. Plus that requires extra hazard removal emphasis, which is another extra step the Pao user does not have to do in order to do the same thing it always does.

Not only does counterplay exist but I'm also just not crazy about banning the premier offensive threat every time a new one emerges. Unless a mon endangers the competitive integrity of the game then it should probably remain legal.
The issue isn't whether or not it's possible to beat Pao at all. As has been said here, either elemental Paldean Tauros can beat it pretty reliably, as long as it's their first switch-in. You can burn your own Tera to stuff its Crunch and live a hit you wouldn't have otherwise. You can beat Pao if you put your mind to it. The issue, rather, is two things. How accessible and broadly useful is that counterplay, and how large of the margin of cost between both players?

For accessibility, just ask yourself if anti-Pao tech is really useful for anything besides countering Pao, or if it ends up kinda being dead weight if it's already done its job or Pao doesn't come in. The Tauros Bros are RU for a reason, and in OU they really fall flat compared to other options. I can't think of many situations where I'd want to run a Tauros over Great Tusk or something, except - wait for it - beating Chien-Pao! And just think of some of the other jank options people have brought up here. Focus Sash Will-o-Wisp/Memento, max HP/Def Azumarill, putting in Volcarona and praying the 30% chance on Flame Body procs...

As for the margin of cost, let's consider something about Tera. If Pao goes Tera Dark and starts spamming Crunch or Sucker Punch with impunity, what is the opportunity cost? Well, they can't Tera something else later and there's a little less surprise factor if they'll use an Ice or coverage move later. Otherwise, not much, since especially with a Band or even without it Pao can blow through a lot of its checks and muscle them out. Dark is resisted only by three types, which in OU realistically means Great Tusk/Kingambit/Hatterene/Ting-Lu are the only common options that can take that hit and do something in return after Pao is locked in, so the only thing the Pao player "loses" is that eventually you will do something that forces them to stop spamming Dark STAB mindlessly. And what do you lose if you have to burn your Tera to resist Chien-Pao? Every other potential application. Pao gets a nuclear warhead it can wave around with impunity until it goes down and the game resumes with you having a hole blown in your team, and you disarm your own bomb to make Pao's a bit weaker. Even if Pao goes down after you Tera to stop it and doesn't wreak additional havoc, you have lost more than your opponent did.

That's the issue, for me at least. Chien-Pao forces its opponent into situations where it does a ton of work for very minimal setup, and no matter what the cost is always heavily skewed in Pao's favor.
 
I'm also just not crazy about banning the premier offensive threat every time a new one emerges
Why do people keep parroting this argument?? Like, I saw it the first time and it was fine because it was just one guy’s personal take, but people keep agreeing with it??? Have y’all never been around for the beginning of a gen before? Since around gen 6, it’s always been the situation where a ton of offensive brokemons come out of the woodwork at the beginning of each generation and have to be dealt with in turn. Usually the worst offenders end up holding back the less obviously broken mons until later, or at least make them seem healthy in comparison, but over time they all end up getting weeded out one by one. That’s just how tiering goes, one suspect at a time. I was actually pretty sure Chien-Pao was going to get gone even before Chi-Yu, simply because of the speed difference making it a more obvious threat to faster playstyles, but I also thought ape would stay OU so I’m clearly not perfect with my guesses. Anyway, Chien-Pao is really the only ‘premier offensive threat’ left to deal with in all honesty, unless you wanna say the HO cheese ostrich is gonna be leading the tier after Chien is gone. Other than suspecting that and salt man, I think we’re pretty much good until home drops, so I just don’t see how this argument pans out if you start trying to actually explain your thought process instead of just throwing out eyecatching phrases and empty fist-shaking. Has anyone seriously asked for an Iron Valiant suspect in the last few weeks? How about Roaring Moon or Dragonite? People seem to be fine with those mons as they are right now, so I’m really not sure what this rhetoric is talking about, other than being baseless fearmongering in order to get a few more people on the side of keeping Mega Weavile legal.
 
my friend and I did a quick run thru of the SPL games this week after noticing chien pao's win% drop from 70% in week 1 to 60% in week 2 to 55% in this most recent week, and we made a few notes. for reference, the W/L represents the Pao user's result.
no pao vs no pao (-)
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) [note: block garg fucks up gxes team, neither pao has potential to win thanks to resistances, plentiful sacks and hazards which ultimately benefit BlazingDark since his garg went in beforehand]
no pao vs no pao (-)
no pao vs pao (L) [pao dies to surprise tera]
pao vs no pao (W) [note: pao comes out at the very end when the game is already over, doesn't absolutely nothing special]
pao vs no pao (W) [note: pao gets a nice defence drop forcing a kill, pao kills the low hp pult bc it can tank sball, solid this game but u cant call this broken]
pao vs no pao (W) [note: michaelderbeste2 brought mu fish team, pao doesn't do much as game is very linear]
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) [note: pao doesn't really do anything special this game from either side, one dies to sash lead the other gets a surprise crit putting raptor so far ahead to where volc + pult clean up this is hax rather than pao being broken]
no pao vs no pao (-)
no pao vs pao (L) [note: pao kills the lead which is cool i guess but yet again this mon appears far from broken, ima got a bit unlucky vs moon]
pao vs pao (-) [note: lots of paras in The Franklin's favor, his pao is sacked tho his set looks weird, 1TL's pao gets a couple kills but it ultimately doesn't matter as The Franklin just has to play it safe to ensure victory]
pao vs pao (-) [note: chien pao does absolutely nothing this game as Savouras uses it as a sack and TPP never has to send it out thanks to hydromisses]
pao vs pao (-) [note: talahs pao was going to clean but got haxed, that position was thanks to iron moth luring pex otherwise would've much harder for them, pao does very little for fc]
no pao vs no pao (-)
pao vs pao (-) [note: pao does nothing impressive for either side each game. dekzeh uses it to kill a sack and rkill the thing that essentially swept his team but had to choicelock into shard meaning anything on robjrs team kills it back he just chose to do it w his pao]
no pao vs pao (L) [note: pao has real potential to be a threat but the choice lock limitation makes it tough in this instance]
no pao vs pao (W) [note: pao cleaned up pretty nicely this game tho opp was also using cryogonal]
pao vs no pao (W) [note: pao also does a good amount this game]

if u don't wanna watch all of these games we made a summary of what actually occurred, with the number of times it occurred on the left
4- nothing special due to linearity of game at the point it comes out
3 - surprise killed (tera fire brute bonnet, sash meow, tera fairy iron moth)
2 - sd pao cleans up very nicely
1 - gets 2 kills (defense drop helps)
1 - kills a tusk when it shouldn't have (crits)
1 - kills a lead taking 80 in the process does nothing else
1 - sacked/dies for nothing
1 - pao gets 2 kills but this is because the opponent played as safe as possible to ensure victory
1 - pao gets sacked
1 - pao doesn't come out at all
1 - pao should've won but got unlucky burn
1 - pao kills a sack then rkills a valiant that killed half its team, choicelocks into ice shard and ensures an L
1 - pao gets a rkill that anything could've done
1 - band paos choicelock gives it trouble when having to deal with kingambit + ghosts (pult and skele) + dark resist (tusk) + ice resist (skele)


so, in general, after factoring out hax what we discovered was...

6 - got played linearly and doesn't change the flow of the game at that point
3 - fucked on the opponents team thanks to sd and coverage
3 - got a couple kills or heavy chip on opponents mons didn't change the outcome of the game (Lycan vs Franklin, Star vs Nat, bea vs lunala)
3 - got fucked on by tera or sash
2 - died doing nothing
2 - died in a 1v1 vs another mon after inflicting heavy chip
1 - didn't come out


this summary, i think, accurately shows chien paos place in the meta. its not instantly broken to the point where it completely changes games and oftentimes teams are very well suited in handling it to the point where they wouldn't straight up lose. it did a good job cleaning in these two instances and wouldve in a third once the opponents team got really weakened. the set that people had initially been complaining about (band) and which has been talked about excessively in here alongside a ton of scary calcs failed to decimate in a single SPL game this week and in fact the choicelock proved a limitation in two instances, wouldve in a third if it didnt get haxed. it also had trouble with being locked into attacks from band or got smacked up by well worth teras


as i thought, people are adapting to what chien pao can do and are finding ways to deal with it. the fever pitch that was band pao for a brief but notable moment in the meta has started to fade, so as a result, i believe pao should remain in the tier.
Do win rate calcs exclude matchups with the same mon? Feel like they probably should.
 
Do win rate calcs exclude matchups with the same mon? Feel like they probably should.
I dunno if they manually calculated or not, but absolutely should. Otherwise a mon getting used more often woukd lean it towards a 50% winrate. If every player used a given mon, that would lead to a 50% winrate. So a decreased winrate could also be just because a mon gets used more.

Edit to also add in: once we add in that factor: tourney stats in general once we add that in are way too small a portion of played games that statistically they are insignificant. There is way too volatile a variation in number of times used for winrate in tournaments for it to be a valid metric imo. Im not qualified to vote in any way,I am terrible, but i refuse to allow doctored statistics to get in the way of anything.
 
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nobody should like stall
I fucking hate when People treat stall as objectively bad. No matter how annoying it can be (which is very annoying) to fight, defensive playstyles are important for a healthy meta. Not every team needs to be about hyper offense hell. I don't care how much you hate Chansey. Chien-Pao needs to fucking go. If anything, I would've prefered a bulkier meta where even offensive teams have some longevity.
 

McGrrr

Facetious
is a Contributor Alumnus
... people are adapting to what chien pao can do and are finding ways to deal with it. the fever pitch that was band pao for a brief but notable moment in the meta has started to fade, so as a result, i believe pao should remain in the tier.
Is this conclusion not putting the cart before the horse?

That is, I read your take as "Chien is not broken because people are now prepared for it", but should this not be "people are now overly prepared for Chien, because it has shown itself to be broken"?

In other words, your analysis of week 2/3 after Chien's week 1 performance does not capture the restrictions to subsequent team building and adjustments made specifically for Chien. That is the definition of centralisation.
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
In other words, your analysis of week 2/3 after Chien's week 1 performance does not capture the restrictions to subsequent team building and adjustments made specifically for Chien. That is the definition of centralisation.
Not only that, but SPL players teambuild taking in consideration the opponent they're facing, in order to have a good match up against that specific opponent. In Tournaments, especially SPL, you're very likely to know or at least have an idea of who you're battling with, and you'll therefore prepare accordingly. If I know I'm facing X opponent that usually plays stall, I'm not gonna be using a balanced team that loses to it, but rather I'd take my chances and prepare with wallbreakers or sub-sweepers. The same logic can be applied for any other situation.
This means that SPL is nothing like laddering on Showdown, and this analysis is flawed from the start. It doesn't really matter what happens in SPL, cause it's not a true reflection of the average meta.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
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Not only that, but SPL players teambuild taking in consideration the opponent they're facing, in order to have a good match up against that specific opponent. In Tournaments, especially SPL, you're very likely to know or at least have an idea of who you're battling with, and you'll therefore prepare accordingly. If I know I'm facing X opponent that usually plays stall, I'm not gonna be using a balanced team that loses to it, but rather I'd take my chances and prepare with wallbreakers or sub-sweepers. The same logic can be applied for any other situation.
This means that SPL is nothing like laddering on Showdown, and this analysis is flawed from the start. It doesn't really matter what happens in SPL, cause it's not a true reflection of the average meta.
It’s not really that linear and SPL tends to be a good case study on specific things once you attain a large sample. Sure, there is some counter-styling that goes on, but preparation — especially earlier in a generation like this — is seldom outright countering specific teams or styles and people tend to try and cover as much as they can.

Obviously SPL is not the be all end all, but it’s very much a reflection of the metagame at a high level.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
I fucking hate when People treat stall as objectively bad. No matter how annoying it can be (which is very annoying) to fight, defensive playstyles are important for a healthy meta. Not every team needs to be about hyper offense hell. I don't care how much you hate Chansey. Chien-Pao needs to fucking go. If anything, I would've prefered a bulkier meta where even offensive teams have some longevity.
Stall?
BAD [vine boom]*
Besides, even tho I gave up on reqs, I do support a Chien Pao ban, in fact, I believe he is as broken as Flutter mane and way more than Chi Yu and Ape, I have said this since day one, I fucking hate this mon and I cannot wait for it to go
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
It’s not really that linear and SPL tends to be a good case study on specific things once you attain a large sample. Sure, there is some counter-styling that goes on, but preparation — especially earlier in a generation like this — is seldom outright countering specific teams or styles and people tend to try and cover as much as they can.

Obviously SPL is not the be all end all, but it’s very much a reflection of the metagame at a high level.
Yeah I kinda over generalised, but I still believe that using SPL as a metric to say "Pao is balanced because Tournament players are prepared for it" is an inherently flawed logic. As McGrrr said, expecting and therefore preparing for an omnipresent threat is a direct result of centralization, and doesn't justify the brokenness of that mon. This is the same "Dracovish is checked by Water Absorb and itself, so you can play around it" kind of reasoning, and it's idiotic.
 
Why do people keep parroting this argument?? Like, I saw it the first time and it was fine because it was just one guy’s personal take, but people keep agreeing with it??? Have y’all never been around for the beginning of a gen before? Since around gen 6, it’s always been the situation where a ton of offensive brokemons come out of the woodwork at the beginning of each generation and have to be dealt with in turn. Usually the worst offenders end up holding back the less obviously broken mons until later, or at least make them seem healthy in comparison, but over time they all end up getting weeded out one by one. That’s just how tiering goes, one suspect at a time. I was actually pretty sure Chien-Pao was going to get gone even before Chi-Yu, simply because of the speed difference making it a more obvious threat to faster playstyles, but I also thought ape would stay OU so I’m clearly not perfect with my guesses. Anyway, Chien-Pao is really the only ‘premier offensive threat’ left to deal with in all honesty, unless you wanna say the HO cheese ostrich is gonna be leading the tier after Chien is gone. Other than suspecting that and salt man, I think we’re pretty much good until home drops, so I just don’t see how this argument pans out if you start trying to actually explain your thought process instead of just throwing out eyecatching phrases and empty fist-shaking. Has anyone seriously asked for an Iron Valiant suspect in the last few weeks? How about Roaring Moon or Dragonite? People seem to be fine with those mons as they are right now, so I’m really not sure what this rhetoric is talking about, other than being baseless fearmongering in order to get a few more people on the side of keeping Mega Weavile legal.
smogon loves stall!!!!!!!

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okay but fr, smogon loves bulky offense is the truth

which makes sense, since bulky offense metas are generally preferred by top players and most ladder players alike
 
smogon loves stall!!!!!!!
We're all part of the conspiracy, it's true. I can't believe they figured out we were double agents. Paoheads stay woke.

For real, I don't get the argument of "We can't ban the best offense mon every time". You've gotta put into perspective how good that offense is. If Pao is the best offense sweeper in the tier, the best stallbreaker in the tier, and has the potential to be so immediately threatening that its checks can't risk checking it until after you see the set, that feels a tad overcentralizing to me.
 
We're all part of the conspiracy, it's true. I can't believe they figured out we were double agents. Paoheads stay woke.

For real, I don't get the argument of "We can't ban the best offense mon every time". You've gotta put into perspective how good that offense is. If Pao is the best offense sweeper in the tier, the best stallbreaker in the tier, and has the potential to be so immediately threatening that its checks can't risk checking it until after you see the set, that feels a tad overcentralizing to me.
It's a line of thought that worked a lot better in other gens, to be fair. We really are systematically removing the top meta threats, it's just that after removing Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, Palafin, Chi-Yu, and Annihilape, the next-best attacker has

*checks*

A 170-ish ATK, 135 Speed monster with a good stab combination, great priority, and Sacred Sword for some reason.

Gen 9 be wildin', y'all. And it's not like NatDex is handling these threats any better, either!
 
bro just ban Chien pao the fact i gotta sacrifice my Volcarona and hope my Wisp dragapult cripples it ain't healthy for the game on top of i gotta deal with chien paos with ting lu doing hazard whirlwind or the chien paos carrying indeedee teams it's just not healthy for the game ...i was all joking for chien pao is balance just burn or waste your tera to counter it but naw it ain't it i had fun with the mon these past months and winning reverse sweep matches with it but the fact i gotta focus so much to counter it just aint right i'm too low for reqs because i meme alot but if i was up there BAN
 
I will never be able to make the reqs but I will still display my opinion.

Anything that could be said has already been said.

Chein-Pao is a super fast wallbreaker that is incredibly difficult to deal with. It OHKOS at worst and 3HKOS at best with its CB set; its SD set does 3 million damage after a +2 boost. It outspeeds almost everything and the only (viable) thing that does outspeed it (dragapult) fricking dies to shard or sucker.

"But priority"

It has priority of its own, and if it needs to it can swap out and rip holes in your team later.

"broken checks broken"

If we need to sus test Ghold or Garg later, so be it, banning chein won't make stall super ultra uber op

"tauros paleda aqua/blaze"

bro these 2 mons are literal ass and are in uu and ru for a reason, while they may """""check""""" chein, chein can swap out; the tauros brothers also get abused by hazards and have no reliable recovery. What else do they do besides swap into chein once or twice before getting killed?

And if this wasn't enough, if you somehow manage to swap in safely and are about to kill this goofy ice cat, an unlucky flinch from an icicle crash or a defense drop from crunch could mean game over.

With a staggering 170 base attack, blinding speed, and practically perfect coverage (screw azumarill, it's not doing anything either), it is an uber-tier mon that should join its sister Chi-yu in Ubers.
 
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