np: SV UU Stage 0 - Start of Something New (Hello SV UU!)

[KamenOH]

Thoughts on Revaroom? With filter, it takes reduced damage from SE hits, but more importantly, it carries Haze and Parting Shot. With a Flying Tera, it can come in on the honestly enchanting ostrich and force it out. Why Flying? Because Fighting is all the rave, and if the bird goes Fairy, you are still hitting it with STAB poison and steel.

Revaroom

Wheels on the Bus (Revavroom) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Filter
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 104 Atk / 152 SpD / 252 Spe
- Haze
- Parting Shot
- Poison Jab
- Iron Head

Expert Belt is just so it hits harder, and the stats let it survive like, one Special attack so it can either haze or parting shot

 

[5camp]

The phrase "Advanced Gogoat Recognition Software" genuinely put a smile on my face, so thank you for that.

So that this isn't just a one-liner, I want to talk about potential rises and drops, as that's happening in ~9 days from this post.

Probable rises to OU:

I think if the OU stats had been done even a week later, the cheese chicken would never have dropped to UU and our life this past month would've been so much better. It's by far the best cleaner in OU, let alone UU, and I can't wait for it to go. I don't have anything less to say about this we've all spent the last month counting down the days for this to happen.


a much more devastating and pretty likely rise. For all two of you who don't know, Hatterene has been picking up a ton of steam in OU and is likely to rise to A/A+ on the OU VR, which will increase its usage even more. It's probably the best hazard remover in the game right now and CM Tera Water sets are another of OU's best win conditions at the minute. It's not as likely to rise as Espathra but if it does last the month I don't think it lasts into february. Even without Tera physdef sets just deny an entire tier's worth of hazards and that might be enough for a rise on its own.


This missed out on OU by less than a percentage point last month. While usage and viability don't correlate, now that there is VR and players can see it in the A ranks alongside other OU by usage things plus new toy syndrome hopefully wearing off for some things, I don't think we'll see this next month. Shame since it's a very good offensive pivot/emergency rain check that the tier benefited from a lot. Rotom-H isn't a good replacement, really.


This is the one I'm the most unsure on rising. Azumarill has picked up traction in OU as tera types get optimized for it and due to it making a great partner for the current best Pokemon in OU, Chi-Yu. Like in UU, Band sets are the best for it with BD not too far behind, only being stopped by like, Dondozo in full. I think this happened a little too late in the month for it to actually rise, but even if it doesn't I doubt it stays UU for long as it's pretty broken here.

Drops:

Getting this one out of the way first, not even Torkoal being the best it's ever been can save Charizard in OU now that there's eight new Protosynthetic sun sweepers. And it doesn't really have anything to offer in UU either, I think it'll be outclassed by Talonflame pretty solidly and without sun it's just an average special breaker with good coverage. Maybe RU will get to enjoy this.


It might be a bit early in the generation for the Ditto cycle to propagate, but this always starts in OU and always ends up in Untiered as the metagame settles down. The presence of Shed Tail teams probably keep it in OU for now, but it might happen.


Okay. These are NOT going to happen. They should happen, but they won't. Both of these Pokemon are absolutely awful in OU and have no real viability in the tier to speak of, but both of them were tailor-made in a lab for Poketubers to upload videos with them in the thumbnail and a title like "EARLY GAME BUG DESTROYS OU???" so it's unlikely they drop for several months yet. I think they'd both be pretty fine in UU, they're both strong but Lokix isn't quite strong enough and Maushold gets stopped by any normal resist ever. And hey, it's been a while since we've had an Ambipom situation in OU, so I guess that's neat.


Cyclizar won the shed tail war and Orthworm got outcompeted pretty harshly after the initial hype. Outside of Charizard this is probably the thing I'd think is most likely to drop. Orthworm is cool. Shed Tail is just subpass but it doesn't have regen so it can probably only do it once? Outside of Shed Tail, I think Orthworm stands to be a pretty decent defensive mon. Pure steel typing with a ground immunity is pretty good defensively, as fire isn't really a type right now with all the rain and several of the best fighting types are likely to be quickbanned, plus it has access to rocks, spikes, or even ironpress. Could be cool if it drops?


If this drops and Lokix and/or Maushold doesn't I will take it as a sign that 2023 isn't going to be any better than 2022 was.

Missed out on a few mons that could drop/rise.

Possible Rises

Rain has been picking up in OU and there's a decent chance Pelipper rises. Suddenly we won't have to deal with rain in UU anymore? Its rise may have been too late in the month to get it over the hump.

Possible Drops

Some huge drops coming our way, with this being maybe the biggest of the lot. Ttar dropped only temporarily last generation, and if Chi-Yu gets the boot, its stay this time will likely be permanent.

The actual biggest of the lot. Pex will be generation defining if it ends up in UU, especially if Pelipper stays. Can see physdef with helmet being the best set.

I did think would rise, but it seems people have realised revival blessing isn't actually that broken and hasn't quite got the usage right now to make it over the hump.

 

[Rust Dust and Guts]

Okay who the heck let Gengar back in the tier?
Have we not learnt anything in the past 5 generations?

 

[KamenOH]

Okay who the heck let Gengar back in the tier?
Have we not learnt anything in the past 5 generations?

No clue about your learned experiences, but personally I've learnt that most offensive threats are banned whenever they make themselves known. No real clue why that happens, but having a strong offense component is good for a metagame, just as you need strong defense and arguably strong support too, but thats the third wheel of the metagame bicycle

 

[razorsharp3000]

Gogoat got brought 5 times and won 3 of them. What's up with that?

Maybe Geeta having Gogoat on her team wasn't such a bad choice after all

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Thinking about the tera suspect in OU, I'm wondering, besides Espathra, does terastilization break anything? UU rn feels like a pretty balanced metagame to me and I kind of what tera to stay as it is in UU (even thought that's not how it works).

 

[BigFatMantis]

Thinking about the tera suspect in OU, I'm wondering, besides Espathra, does terastilization break anything? UU rn feels like a pretty balanced metagame to me and I kind of what tera to stay as it is in UU (even thought that's not how it works).

Tera is more manageable in UU than OU but that’s partly because OU has lots of other things you have to worry about besides tera (like Chi Yu, Shed Tail, Annihilape), that it’s hard to account for all those ridiculous threats and also have to account for tera. Espathra is clearly not a UU mon so it’s gone in a week anyways since it will rise to OU.

Oricorio is a good tera abuser because revelation dance can work together with Tera, making it very hard to prep for. Iron Thorns using Tera Grass is also huge and losing Tera would probably affect it tremendously since Quag then walls it. Azu doubling down on its Water STAB after a BD is also near unstoppable. Every mon can benefit from tera though it’s just not as crazy as OU, which to me was surprising as I thought it’d be the opposite.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Okay. These are NOT going to happen. They should happen, but they won't. Both of these Pokemon are absolutely awful in OU and have no real viability in the tier to speak of, but both of them were tailor-made in a lab for Poketubers to upload videos with them in the thumbnail and a title like "EARLY GAME BUG DESTROYS OU???" so it's unlikely they drop for several months yet. I think they'd both be pretty fine in UU, they're both strong but Lokix isn't quite strong enough and Maushold gets stopped by any normal resist ever. And hey, it's been a while since we've had an Ambipom situation in OU, so I guess that's neat.

Idk about the mice, but lokix is actually pretty insane. I wouldn't sleep on it staying OU/BL. STAB tinted lens first impression is a god send rn in OU.

Tera Bug and basically gets to choose who lives and dies lol

Tera Bug 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 390-458 (123 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tera Bug 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Tera Bug 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Volcarona: 352-414 (94.3 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Tera Bug 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 434-512 (139.5 - 164.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tera Bug 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 160-188 (50.7 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It doesn't hit neutrally as hard as slither, but you have to be really fat to stomache a hit regardless of the type matchup. Which RN HO meta really works for it. Corv stonewalls it kinda but gholdengo got corv caged.

____

Speaking of tera, I'm curious if the UU tier has the option of testing tera independently from OU. Normally whatever OU does affects UU too, but I think its worth a policy review on letting UU try things independently. Tera doesn't feel nearly as bullshit as in UU as it does in OU.

 

[Pabloaram]

Speaking of tera, I'm curious if the UU tier has the option of testing tera independently from OU. Normally whatever OU does affects UU too, but I think its worth a policy review on letting UU try things independently. Tera doesn't feel nearly as bullshit as in UU as it does in OU.

Same as Dyna or the case of light clay in last gen, when a higher tier ban a defining mechanic or item is the same from lower tier aka if OU ban/nerf Terastalization, UU does the same. No question ask.

About 2 strong but not "op" mons rn:

Gengar isn't as good rn bc 2 of the "most reliable" form of beating Espathra also beat Gengar. I'm talking about Grafarai and Spdef Tinkaton. Gengar gonna be a problem if this start droping in usage after Espathra rise (or quickban cof cof)

Slither Wing also suffer in this meta. Talonflame check most of this set and Pawmot give competition as fighting- type breaker

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

Thinking about the tera suspect in OU, I'm wondering, besides Espathra, does terastilization break anything? UU rn feels like a pretty balanced metagame to me and I kind of what tera to stay as it is in UU (even thought that's not how it works).

I think this is an interesting way of looking at Terastillization in general because of how often the mechanic has shown that it can make A+ mons look completely busted in OU. There are obviously a ton of Pokemon which get significantly better when Terastillized but I can't think of that many which go from completely fine to busted out the ass here in UU, atleast in the current metagame filled with broken mons.

A prime example of this is of course Hydreigon with it's Sub + Nasty Plot set.

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse

This set essentially just invalidates fat unless you run a specific counter to it, moreso than Espathra since unlike the dumb Ostrich this set actually beats the best Steel type in the tier 1v1 unless you play like shit (without any team support no less if you're using the Flamethrower variant). It beats most forms of priority thanks to Sub + Flexibility in choosing resists, aswell as having a Prankster immunity pre Tera, which alongside the fact that many of the fatter mons in the tier straight up can't touch it makes it pretty much a free win against most forms of fat. This coupled with it getting to choose between two good defensive typings at will makes getting setup opportunities with this mon a non issue.

I also think that another moreso debetable but still borderline broken Tera threat is Lucario.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch

This mon pretty much cleans up most weakened teams for free with it's 3 STABs alone, though there's obviously a lot of set variety that can be made should you choose (I've seen people drop CC for Drain Punch to have an easier time beating fat through Life Orb Recoil + Priority for an example) but this is the standard set you'll see on ladder. There's a gigantic lack of counterplay to this mon between most defensive checks not hurting it that badly and most offensive checks not being capable of switching in or taking a +2 priority and the extra priority on Extreme Speed makes it essentially immune to most forms of priority. People straight up run Tera Ghost Talonflame to cover up their Lucario weakness, it's that opressive against both fat and offensive teams.

Aside from these mons I struggle to think of mons which won't rise to OU that also abuse Tera to a broken degree. I think that Espathra is debatable on this front since on paper it seems like an S Tier mon without the ability to change to a good defensive typing at will, but on paper arguments don't really mean much and the chances of this thing not becoming OU are slim. Hatt is a pain to fight when your strongest super effective attack suddenly does 30% and it then proceeds to kiss your team to death, but again this thing is 100% rising to OU next list. I've seen a lot of people complain about Azumarill, which I find strange because I've never struggled against it. Maybe it's because I always run a bulky water and/or a grass type with enough speed to outspeed it alongside 1-2 priority users on every team (it probably is), but I've never gotten swept by it aside from when I make a bad play and it claims a key mon.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Thank you guys for your responses guys. I really like RoyalDispenser's idea of testing tera separately from OU. I don't see a big problem with banning just a few pokemon as it really isn't proving to be broken itself in UU. In OU, yes it does feel broken. But it doesn't feel that way in UU, so it'd be nice to see it stay as it's a lot of fun.

 

[Moutemoute]

This won't happen. If something is banned in OU, it's banned in all lower tiers (see things like Kings Rock).

I also strongly disagree with people stating Terastillization is fine in UU. Even tho it's true we don't have abusers as dumb as OU, we also don't have answers / checks as great. Also the issues OU has with Terastillization are the same in UU (you don't know what will Tera, which Tera type it will be and when this will happen).

If we're looking at current UU, there is more than a couple of Pokémon which are beyond great thanks to Terastillization :

• Azumarill getting Adaptability boost on Aqua Jet alongside Belly Drum is awful to check
• Espathra being able to circumvent its checks thanks to either Tera Fairy/Dark
• Floatzel enjoying Adaptability boost on Wave Crash / Liquidation / Aqua Jet under Rain
• Gengar being able to abuse Choice Specs Adaptability boosted Shadow Ball
• Gyarados being able to nuke things with Tera Blast Flying / Grass
• Hatterene being an insane slow setup win con thanks to Tera Water / Steel
• Haxorus / Hydreigon / Salamence being kekw Dragon-types abusing the shit out Tera Steel making them nearly impossible to deal with (can mess with them with Grafaiai but if you're guessing wrong and come on EQ or Dark Pulse / Flash Cannon you're pretty much screwed)
• Lucario with it's E-Killer set

And the list goes on with things like Hawlucha, Iron Thorns, Noivern, Pawmot, Polteageist etc.. which, while not being as menacing as the Pokémon named above, can still mess up with a lot of teams if they're managing to Tera at the right time. I'm a Tera hater so this might be biased but saying Tera is "fine" in UU just because it's beyond dumb in OU doesn't sounds fair to me.

 

[CadmusRhodium]

No clue about your learned experiences, but personally I've learnt that most offensive threats are banned whenever they make themselves known. No real clue why that happens, but having a strong offense component is good for a metagame, just as you need strong defense and arguably strong support too, but thats the third wheel of the metagame bicycle

Actually it’s not the third wheel of the bike it’s the third RAIL is the expression do you know nothing about politics you absolute buffoon /s

 

[Lily]

Tera is definitely fine in this tier and I think arguments to the contrary are mostly unfounded; we really just don't have good enough offensive mons to make it ridiculous outside of a few things (which would very likely be broken anyway - Hydreigon is just about the only thing that really gets broken by Tera's existence). Things like Pawmot, Lucario, Noivern, Azumarill, Haxorus, Floatzel etc can all abuse it to a good extent but to say it makes them broken is super strange imo - the only one that's even debatable there to me is Azumarill and you could argue we just don't have enough checks to it to begin with, esp with its expanded coverage and ability to boost Speed now.

Regardless of that tho, we are stuck with whatever decision OU goes with since that's just the nature of transitive tiering. If you want to ensure Tera is banned or remains unbanned in UU, then you're gonna wanna get reqs for the ongoing OU test.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I still think its worth discussing internally some independence from tiering that way.

For pokemon and moves I understand, for game mechanics (weather, generation gimmicks, etc) I think there could be a line in the sand on what daddy OU condemns us from having. Obviously this isn't the place for those talks but if tera is worth keeping in UU so much that votes for OU are going to be influenced by a difference tier (its bullshit in OU idc), might be time to change some policies.

 

[BigFatMantis]

I still think its worth discussing internally some independence from tiering that way.

For pokemon and moves I understand, for game mechanics (weather, generation gimmicks, etc) I think there could be a line in the sand on what daddy OU condemns us from having. Obviously this isn't the place for those talks but if tera is worth keeping in UU so much that votes for OU are going to be influenced by a difference tier (its bullshit in OU idc), might be time to change some policies.

While it’s not totally out of the question, it’s something that would be better suited in the policy review forum at a more appropriate time. This NP topic is more suited to discuss the current UU meta (there’s probably a new NP topic for when beta starts and some quickbans are in for Jan 2 or 3 or so).

I personally think Tera is obviously centralizing in both OU and UU but I think that’s fine, and in UU in particular there’s not that many things that I think become oppressive because of Tera - it’d be better to re-assess the situation after Jan 1st meta since that’s when we are actually allowed to start tiering and the meta will look much different. Until then, there’s nothing to be done anyways but keep playing the current meta unchanged until the New Year hits.

 

[BlackKnight_Gawain]

Tera is more manageable in UU than OU but that’s partly because OU has lots of other things you have to worry about besides tera (like Chi Yu, Shed Tail, Annihilape), that it’s hard to account for all those ridiculous threats and also have to account for tera. Espathra is clearly not a UU mon so it’s gone in a week anyways since it will rise to OU.

Oricorio is a good tera abuser because revelation dance can work together with Tera, making it very hard to prep for. Iron Thorns using Tera Grass is also huge and losing Tera would probably affect it tremendously since Quag then walls it. Azu doubling down on its Water STAB after a BD is also near unstoppable. Every mon can benefit from tera though it’s just not as crazy as OU, which to me was surprising as I thought it’d be the opposite.

Honestly UU being so much more stable despite tera makes me believe more in Nat Dex/OU's problem with tera coming from abusers (plus some extra factors in the case of Nat Dex). UU's tera options feel much more predictable and manageable, and I think with the general power level being lower also helps. If this general trend sticks I think the lower tiers will be quite enjoyable, and UU certainly feels the most enjoyable it's been in a while imo.

 

[Turtlek]

I remember I have heard something about a Spore ban in BW that wasn’t retroactive on UU. So there is a precedent and I do think Tera shouldn’t be banned on the sole purpose of constituency with OU, as those are very different metas.

 

[termi]

I remember I have heard something about a Spore ban in BW that wasn’t retroactive on UU. So there is a precedent and I do think Tera shouldn’t be banned on the sole purpose of constituency with OU, as those are very different metas.

This is only the case because it was a tiering decision made in a legacy generation. In current gen metagames, bans on items/abilities/etc typically also apply to all tiers below the tier where said decision is made. In any case it would be rather weird for OU to ban tera whereas it is legal in lower tiers and would probably lead to undesirable side effects, so don't count on UU being spared of a tera ban if OU bans it.

 

[incorolla]

I appreciate this may not be the best place to ask, but why should precedent dictate tiering decisions? For example, there's argument that if tera is banned in OU then that must therefore make it banned in lower tiers because "that's how tiering works", and when Turtlek mentioned the OU-only Spore ban in Gen 5, it was mentioned that this was an exception due to it being a legacy generation. I don't think it's fair that if OU bans tera that other tiers should also have it banned just for the sake of tradition.

There's a fair argument that there's tera abusers in UU that break the meta somewhat (Espathra, Lucario, maybe Hydreigon), and I understand the pro-ban arguments there. But to ban Tera just because OU has could be disruptive to the metagame and risk splintering the playerbase further imo.

 

[Lavern]

While we're on the topic of terastallization, I saw tera Water Floatzel being mentioned earlier, so I thought it'd be a good idea to share a set that I've been using to counter that set.


Slowbro @ Utility Umbrella
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- filler
- filler
- filler

The only niche that Slowbro has over Slowking, is being better at checking Floatzel and Barraskewda. However, it's not even reliable at that, because tera water Wave Crash from CB Floatzel usually 2HKOs Slowbro. Which is why I've been experimenting with Utility Umbrella on Slowbro. With an umbrella, Slowbro is able to ignore the boost that water attacks get in the rain, taking them as if it was in clear weather, which means that a banded tera water Wave Crash from Floatzel only does 32-37%. I've played with the set a bit, and it's been reliable so far. If Floatzel doesn't tera water, Wave Crash does less damage than Regenerator recovers, so you essentially only take hazard damage each time. Tera grass is still a threat to this set, but it is much better for you if Floatzel is locked into Tera Blast instead of Wave Crash. If it's Mystic Water TB Grass, you can play around it with different tera types. Slowbro can honestly use any combination of moves with Slack Off. I've been having decent success with 3 attacks Slowbro (Psychic/Surf/Ice Beam), but there are a bunch of other moves it can run. Overall, Utility Umbrella has been the best Item on Slowbro, in my opinion. Other Items on Slowbro really just let it be outclassed by Slowking, because let's be honest, if Slowbro doesn't reliably switch into rain boosted water attacks, there is no reason to use it over Slowking.

calcs of umbrella bro vs boots bro

Slowbro with Heavy-Duty-Boots:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Rain: 188-222 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Rain: 148-175 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Tera Water Azumarill Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Rain: 171-202 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
Slowbro with Utility Umbrella:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 125-148 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- 1.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Tera Water Azumarill Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 114-135 (29 - 34.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Without Tera

Slowbro with Heavy-Duty-Boots:
252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Rain: 141-166 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Rain: 111-131 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Rain: 128-151 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO
Slowbro with Utility Umbrella:
252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 74-87 (18.8 - 22.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 85-101 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Moutemoute]

I appreciate this may not be the best place to ask, but why should precedent dictate tiering decisions? For example, there's argument that if tera is banned in OU then that must therefore make it banned in lower tiers because "that's how tiering works", and when Turtlek mentioned the OU-only Spore ban in Gen 5, it was mentioned that this was an exception due to it being a legacy generation. I don't think it's fair that if OU bans tera that other tiers should also have it banned just for the sake of tradition.

There's a fair argument that there's tera abusers in UU that break the meta somewhat (Espathra, Lucario, maybe Hydreigon), and I understand the pro-ban arguments there. But to ban Tera just because OU has could be disruptive to the metagame and risk splintering the playerbase further imo.

That's how tiering policy works, whether you agree with it or not isn't the question. Currently all low tiers from an ongoing generation must apply OU's bans. The idea is that 99.99% of the time, if something is broken in OU, it will be the same for lower tiers. The example showed was based on a old generation, thus doesn't apply to the current generation policy. Also, would like to highlight the fact that we're derailing a lot right now. We're in the UU subforum, thus we should talk about the tier, complaining here about Tiering Policy isn't the right place to do so. As BigFatMantis explained, all other discussions should happen within the Policy Review subforum.

 

[Nuclearstomp]

Tera is definitely fine in this tier and I think arguments to the contrary are mostly unfounded; we really just don't have good enough offensive mons to make it ridiculous outside of a few things (which would very likely be broken anyway - Hydreigon is just about the only thing that really gets broken by Tera's existence). Things like Pawmot, Lucario, Noivern, Azumarill, Haxorus, Floatzel etc can all abuse it to a good extent but to say it makes them broken is super strange imo - the only one that's even debatable there to me is Azumarill and you could argue we just don't have enough checks to it to begin with, esp with its expanded coverage and ability to boost Speed now.

Regardless of that tho, we are stuck with whatever decision OU goes with since that's just the nature of transitive tiering. If you want to ensure Tera is banned or remains unbanned in UU, then you're gonna wanna get reqs for the ongoing OU test.

Sorry for the short one-liner but shouldn't you not be advocating for UU players to get reqs for a tier they might not even play to keep something in their own tier when the suspect test is not about this tier? That seems kind of strange. It's like getting reqs to not have a mon banned from OU despite being broken there because it's fine in UU.

 

[Lily]

Sorry for the short one-liner but shouldn't you not be advocating for UU players to get reqs for a tier they might not even play to keep something in their own tier when the suspect test is not about this tier? That seems kind of strange. It's like getting reqs to not have a mon banned from OU despite being broken there because it's fine in UU.

I'm not sure why this is an issue. The suspect test is very much about this tier just as much as it is about OU; it has as big of an impact here as it does there, and as such I don't think there is an issue with UU players voting the way they want. The suspect system is set up the way it is to ensure that you can vote for whatever you want regardless of what your reasoning might be. I don't think it's perfect to have to vote in a tier you don't play; I also don't think it's perfect that a tier you do play should be screwed over based on what the tier above it wants, though. I'd rather this than tell everyone to just sit back and take whatever punches OU throws at them, and it's the only choice we have if we want a say, so it's the only thing I can choose to advocate for. If you think it's a problem, then it's probably pointing more towards it being evidence of a problem with the system as a whole.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

That's how tiering policy works, whether you agree with it or not isn't the question. Currently all low tiers from an ongoing generation must apply OU's bans. The idea is that 99.99% of the time, if something is broken in OU, it will be the same for lower tiers. The example showed was based on a old generation, thus doesn't apply to the current generation policy. Also, would like to highlight the fact that we're derailing a lot right now. We're in the UU subforum, thus we should talk about the tier, complaining here about Tiering Policy isn't the right place to do so. As BigFatMantis explained, all other discussions should happen within the Policy Review subforum.

I just want to throw a few more comments and if you do respond I won't respond back to avoid derailing further.

I feel this is part of UU's discussion cause what happens up there to tera is going to affect us down here and our only option is to basically influence the vote in another tier entirely (which for once our influence could potentially negativity impact OU depending on the outcome), or alter the policy to enable some form of wiggle room for this scenario. This isn't 1 mon, or 1 item, this is an entire mechanic and we have infact bent rules for generation mechanics in lower tiers before ('by technicality megas'). This is the first time UU players have to genuinely go to another tier's suspect test.. just to preserve (or guarantee removal, if you hate it here that much) of a mechanic that either they can suspect themselves later, or by time for it to stay longer. We've never had anything like that before and I'm sure we didn't care when dynamax/baton pass chains got banned in upper tiers either for letting that happen.

There's just no public access anywhere to discuss this matter in policy review and it's something I'm pretty sure even tier leaders wished could be different seeing how even Lily is incentivizing UU players to jump to another tier entirely for UU's fate. That is a flawed system and needs some kind of initiative for change if everyone wanted to be happy. Lily is right, UU could be fucked depending on OU's decision (now or when DLC convinces everyone) and if the results of OU's suspect test are influenced by UU's impact then the suspect vote feels invalidated because its not even for making OU a healthier tier. I don't blame lily for incentivizing it, because literally what options is she given? We can't discuss how the tera results affect UU in the OU suspect thread, and we can't discuss them here, so where can we discuss them?.. and no I don't believe DMs are a good place for publicly discussing something especially when councils have lately been more transparent and community open on how tiers should be built for the playerbase, hence why there's even a tera debate at all rather than a council vote. There's just no where for a community discussion or impact at all on the subject.

The policies can change or bend, I think a good example is how megas were handled later on, where for the sake of lower tiers we implemented 'by technicality' so inflated pokemon weren't stuck in OU, despite the cut and cry policies previously stating we couldn't drop them since they were still picked for OU regardless for the megas. We reworked/found a solution for it. That might need to be done for tera or generational mechanics in general, as the only locked in policy is the usage one since that's just how the tiering system works, the clauses as you said just work best for all tiers, banned mons up there obviously shouldn't be here, but tera influences the tier very differently and we can see that in broad daylight.