np: SV UU Stage 0 - Start of Something New (Hello SV UU!)

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gamieTG said:
After reading the Lycanroc-Dusk thread, it made me wonder whether base Lycanroc can find a niche in the tier.

It's the only legal Sand Rush user (Houndstone is Ubers), and has coverage moves and rock priority, meaning it can pair w/ Hippowdon to become a potentially dangerous sweeper. But with the prevelance of Rain and it's unfavorable MU vs Barraskewda (dies to banded Aqua Jet and Accelerock only OHKOs at +2 w/ Life Orb), Lycanroc will need a lot of team support to find success.

Here's hoping that rocky doggo and it's hippo friend can succeed in UU.
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Sand actually has a decent/workable MU against rain if you pair it with something like Tsareena and stuff that can put pressure on Pelipper and good use of phazing, winning the weather war isn't that difficult mostly because Pelipper itself has to run damp rock which lets u wear it down easily. It definitely needs a lot of help to succeed but CB Lycanroc can put some decent work in especially if you do Tera Rock, it also notably can 2HKO SpDef Gastrodon on the switch although Tera Fighting is also an ok option too since it can completely fold traditional defensive walls that resist rock stab like Quagsire. It does at minimum require stealth rock support to get work done.

SpDef Hippo is quite good since its bulk lets it do just enough to shrug off some stuff it normally would not survive. I'll probably post the sand team I've been using that got me to like a decent elo on an alt (around 1400s at the time I am making this post) in Team Bazaar later during the week but I do believe Sand Rush has some real use.
 
Hi it's the guy that always does usage stats in recent times. Even though the metagame is still very new in its preliminary stages and will change a lot with beta, I thought that gathering usage stats from the UU SV Kickoff Tournament, starting with round 1, could be neat in seeing the top tiers so far in the metagame and the Pokemon that players have had the most success with. I'll also share my own thoughts on the information these recent stats provided.
tinkaton.png
KickOff Tournament Round 1
tinkaton.png

Code: 
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tinkaton           |  105 |  36.46% |  56.19% |
| 2    | Espathra           |   70 |  24.31% |  48.57% |
| 3    | Slither Wing       |   57 |  19.79% |  42.11% |
| 4    | Grafaiai           |   52 |  18.06% |  59.62% |
| 5    | Gengar             |   51 |  17.71% |  52.94% |
| 5    | Talonflame         |   51 |  17.71% |  47.06% |
| 7    | Azumarill          |   48 |  16.67% |  52.08% |
| 8    | Pawmot             |   45 |  15.62% |  48.89% |
| 8    | Pelipper           |   45 |  15.62% |  42.22% |
| 10   | Gastrodon          |   44 |  15.28% |  43.18% |
| 11   | Hydreigon          |   43 |  14.93% |  53.49% |
| 12   | Slowking           |   41 |  14.24% |  58.54% |
| 12   | Quagsire           |   41 |  14.24% |  56.10% |
| 14   | Sandy Shocks       |   39 |  13.54% |  61.54% |
| 15   | Tsareena           |   36 |  12.50% |  52.78% |
| 15   | Kilowattrel        |   36 |  12.50% |  47.22% |
| 17   | Brambleghast       |   35 |  12.15% |  54.29% |
| 18   | Bisharp            |   33 |  11.46% |  54.55% |
| 19   | Staraptor          |   31 |  10.76% |  51.61% |
| 20   | Noivern            |   29 |  10.07% |  68.97% |
| 20   | Donphan            |   29 |  10.07% |  34.48% |
| 22   | Hatterene          |   27 |   9.38% |  55.56% |
| 23   | Scream Tail        |   26 |   9.03% |  42.31% |
| 24   | Lucario            |   25 |   8.68% |  64.00% |
| 24   | Salamence          |   25 |   8.68% |  36.00% |
| 26   | Barraskewda        |   24 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 26   | Rotom-Wash         |   24 |   8.33% |  41.67% |
| 28   | Mimikyu            |   21 |   7.29% |  61.90% |
| 28   | Altaria            |   21 |   7.29% |  52.38% |
| 30   | Brute Bonnet       |   20 |   6.94% |  55.00% |
| 31   | Forretress         |   19 |   6.60% |  57.89% |
| 32   | Slowbro            |   17 |   5.90% |  52.94% |
| 32   | Hawlucha           |   17 |   5.90% |  52.94% |
| 32   | Wo-Chien           |   17 |   5.90% |  29.41% |
| 32   | Floatzel           |   17 |   5.90% |  29.41% |
| 36   | Bronzong           |   16 |   5.56% |  68.75% |
| 36   | Iron Thorns        |   16 |   5.56% |  50.00% |
| 36   | Rotom-Mow          |   16 |   5.56% |  50.00% |
| 36   | Cloyster           |   16 |   5.56% |  50.00% |
| 36   | Krookodile         |   16 |   5.56% |  43.75% |
| 36   | Weavile            |   16 |   5.56% |  37.50% |
| 42   | Haxorus            |   15 |   5.21% |  46.67% |
| 42   | Toedscruel         |   15 |   5.21% |  46.67% |
| 42   | Magnezone          |   15 |   5.21% |  33.33% |
| 45   | Hippowdon          |   14 |   4.86% |  64.29% |
| 46   | Iron Jugulis       |   13 |   4.51% |  46.15% |
| 47   | Klefki             |   12 |   4.17% |  75.00% |
| 47   | Gallade            |   12 |   4.17% |  41.67% |
| 49   | Polteageist        |   11 |   3.82% |  72.73% |
| 50   | Froslass           |   10 |   3.47% |  60.00% |
| 50   | Lycanroc-Dusk      |   10 |   3.47% |  60.00% |
| 50   | Tatsugiri          |   10 |   3.47% |  40.00% |
| 53   | Oricorio-Pom-Pom   |    9 |   3.12% |  66.67% |
| 53   | Golduck            |    9 |   3.12% |  55.56% |
| 55   | Blissey            |    8 |   2.78% |  62.50% |
| 55   | Salazzle           |    8 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Drednaw            |    8 |   2.78% |  25.00% |
| 58   | Armarouge          |    7 |   2.43% |  71.43% |
| 58   | Gyarados           |    7 |   2.43% |  42.86% |
| 58   | Arboliva           |    7 |   2.43% |  42.86% |
| 58   | Florges            |    7 |   2.43% |  42.86% |
| 58   | Revavroom          |    7 |   2.43% |  28.57% |
| 63   | Rotom-Heat         |    6 |   2.08% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Primeape           |    6 |   2.08% |  33.33% |
| 63   | Cetitan            |    6 |   2.08% |  33.33% |
| 66   | Sableye            |    5 |   1.74% |  40.00% |
| 66   | Masquerain         |    5 |   1.74% |   0.00% |
| 68   | Alomomola          |    4 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 68   | Indeedee           |    4 |   1.39% |  75.00% |
| 68   | Venomoth           |    4 |   1.39% |  75.00% |
| 68   | Tauros-Paldea-Fire |    4 |   1.39% |  75.00% |
| 68   | Espeon             |    4 |   1.39% |  50.00% |
| 68   | Goodra             |    4 |   1.39% |  50.00% |
| 68   | Mabosstiff         |    4 |   1.39% |  25.00% |
| 68   | Toxtricity         |    4 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 68   | Naclstack          |    4 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 68   | Abomasnow          |    4 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 68   | Arcanine           |    4 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 79   | Gogoat             |    3 |   1.04% |  66.67% |
| 79   | Tatsugiri-Droopy   |    3 |   1.04% |  66.67% |
| 79   | Cryogonal          |    3 |   1.04% |  66.67% |
| 79   | Dragalge           |    3 |   1.04% |  66.67% |
| 79   | Drifblim           |    3 |   1.04% |  66.67% |
| 79   | Oricorio-Sensu     |    3 |   1.04% |  33.33% |
| 79   | Komala             |    3 |   1.04% |  33.33% |
| 79   | Rabsca             |    3 |   1.04% |  33.33% |
| 79   | Copperajah         |    3 |   1.04% |   0.00% |
| 79   | Morgrem            |    3 |   1.04% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Umbreon            |    2 |   0.69% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Ursaring           |    2 |   0.69% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Farigiraf          |    2 |   0.69% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Indeedee-F         |    2 |   0.69% |  50.00% |
| 89   | Coalossal          |    2 |   0.69% |  50.00% |
| 89   | Polteageist-Antique |    2 |   0.69% |  50.00% |
| 89   | Qwilfish           |    2 |   0.69% |  50.00% |
| 89   | Zoroark            |    2 |   0.69% |  50.00% |
| 89   | Beartic            |    2 |   0.69% |  50.00% |
| 89   | Gardevoir          |    2 |   0.69% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Flapple            |    2 |   0.69% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Avalugg            |    2 |   0.69% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Rotom-Frost        |    2 |   0.69% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Tauros-Paldea-Water |    2 |   0.69% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Dudunsparce-Three-Segment |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Mudsdale           |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Spidops            |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Medicham           |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Zangoose           |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Glaceon            |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Vaporeon           |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Hariyama           |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Klawf              |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Flamigo            |    1 |   0.35% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Leafeon            |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Falinks            |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Drakloak           |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Fraxure            |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Shelgon            |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Gabite             |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Lycanroc           |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Heracross          |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Starly             |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Persian            |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Eelektross         |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Appletun           |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Pincurchin         |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Bellibolt          |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Wugtrio            |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Veluza             |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Jolteon            |    1 |   0.35% |   0.00% |

The first thing that immediately sticks out is the absolutely insane usage Tinkaton got round 1. Many players expected Espathra or Gengar to be the most common but Tinkaton blew them out of the water, getting twice that of the arguably broken Gengar and beating out the demon ostrich by more than 30 uses. Although these stats do seem crazy, I do believe Tinkaton will settle down to be one of the most used Pokemon thanks to its very valuable role compression and utility. Utility options such as Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Encore, or Thunder Wave alongside one of the best defensive types in the game make it a very splashable Pokemon to cover many slots like a Dragon-immune and Steel-type. It's practically our only real Steel-type (Forretress sucks and Bronzong is currently nowhere to be seen) which helps boost its usage a lot. It matches well against Gengar and Kilowattrel and is one of the few ways to stop Espathra through Encore. Even though I expect Tinkaton to be less used as the tier develops more, I still believe it will have a strong place in UU for the foreseeable future.

Following behind Tinkaton is Espathra at 70 uses, which makes sense because it is literally broken. Whenever I use hyper offense, I almost try to not use it because of how quickly it farms games and I want to use other Pokemon. An A+ OU Pokemon chilling in UU is a sight to see and I cannot wait for January 1st for it to rise. Next up is Slither Wing at 57 uses. While I do think Slither Wing has a frighteningly strong First Impression, I feel like its pretty reliant on it to succeed and can come up short a fair bit with its vulnerable defensive typing and somewhat average speed. I find it works best with Future Sight support from one of the Slowtwins + a dedicated special breaker like Gengar, which is a core I've seen a lot watching replays from this tour. Still a good Pokemon in my opinion but I find it comes up short a fair bit so seeing it at #3 above Gengar is surprising.

The next 3 are Grafaiai at 52 uses and Gengar and Talonflame at 51 uses. Grafaiai has been taking the ladder by storm since it was popularized by Lily, using its nice utility in Knock Off, Encore, and Parting Shot to excel in item displacement and messing up hyper offense. It's saved every one of us at least once from a pending Espathra sweep. Gengar is another controversial figure in the metagame, being an absurdly strong and fast wallbreaker with a wide amount of set versatility between Substitute + 3 attacks, Choice Specs, Hex, and Nasty Plot. It's one of the most polarizing forces in the tier and just shines as the go-to special wallbreaker right now, especially punishing teams that rely on Pokemon like Slowbro and Slowking as their defensive Water-type. Lastly, Talonflame has made a itself a strong presence as a great utility Pokemon, using Will-o-Wisp and Flame Body to neuter dangerous breakers like Hawlucha and Gallade and just be a rare Fighting resist while providing Defog support. I think Talonflame is very strong myself and was surprised to see how many others also caught on to its potency. My only real gripe is that it wants so many moves in Brave Bird to do damage, Wisp for reliable burns, U-turn for pivoting, Taunt to mess with defensive Pokemon, and Defog for removal on top of the mandatory Roost, making so that no matter what you pick you'll always miss out on a great tool. Still, a strong utility Pokemon and a solid contender for top 10 in the metagame at the moment.

Rounding out the top 10 are Azumarill at 48 uses, Pawmot and Pelipper at 45 uses, and Gastrodon at 44 uses. Azumarill is another controversial figure in the tier right now, many citing it to be broken because of the sheer power behind its attacks. Play Rough can often be a free click with our little amount of Steel-types in the metagame, with other resists like Talonflame fearing getting KOed by Liquidation. I've found AV sets to be the most successful, as they can eat hits easier while still having flexibility to change moves. In general non choice sets are the best, as Quagsire and Gastrodon are too prevalent to the point where you want to have the freedom to click your Water STAB without being punished. Its probably rising to OU anyway but we will see if the tier can develop to handle Azumarill more easily. Pawmot has risen as a pretty powerful wallbreaker, using Choice Band and Bulk Up sets to strong efficiency on top of Revival Blessing shenanigans. Its one of the best Choice Scarf users too which lends to its splashability. It can honestly be tough to wall, two high powered STABs plus Ice Punch for Brambelghast and Salamence and Seed Bomb for Quagsire and Gastrodon makes it scary to fight on the defensive end. I'll be the first to say though that Revival Blessing is balanced, being brought back at 50% doesn't really do much and its honestly kind of a lame move as you're giving up coverage and a potential item slot for it. Idt it's won many if any games whenever I fought or used it. It always just seemed meh and not the terror we expected. Meanwhile, Pelipper is the staple setter of rain which has been insanely popular on the ladder. I think rain is balanced, as we have many, many Pokemon like Quagsire, Gastrodon, Tsareena, Brambleghast, Salamence, Rotom-W, Rotom-M, Slowbro, Wo Chien, and Slowking as well as bulky foes in general like Scream Tail or deadly revenge killers like Slither Wing that just stomp the archetype. Its often forced into other taking several other slots to have rocks + spin unless you're using Forretress which is terrible, ultimately limiting the archetype by keeping it from stacking sweepers. It has a useful presence to keep hyper offense in check but after nearly 2 weeks of the tier I can safely say rain is 100% balanced. Finally, Gastrodon is perhaps the most reliable wall in the tier along Quagsire. Both are amazing hazard setters while a lot of defensive utility, I think Quagsire is overall better but I like Gastrodon's ability to be more specially inclined vs foes like Gengar and Kilowattrel.

This post has been going on for ages so just a final quick few thoughts to lead it to a close. Hatterene not being near top 10 is insane she's bordering broken with her CM set being a dangerous trade Pokemon and having natural removal in Magic Bounce. Sub NP Tera Steel Hydreigon is broken use it. Tsareena and Brambleghast are both top spinners and are ultimately dependent on preference, try them both out to see what clicks best, I like the former more because U-turn is so good. Forretress and Brute Bonnet getting used more than Haxorus, Slowbro, and Hawlucha is very :worrywhirl: . UU is really fun and I'm still enjoying it after nearly 2 weeks and hundreds of games, def look forward to beta coming soon so we can develop and tier more.
 
Monky25 said:
Forretress and Brute Bonnet getting used more than Haxorus, Slowbro, and Hawlucha is very :worrywhirl: . UU is really fun and I'm still enjoying it after nearly 2 weeks and hundreds of games, def look forward to beta coming soon so we can develop and tier more.
Click to expand...
This isnt UU if some random ass mon gets more usage than some of the best pokemon in the tier. Woo chien having like a 29% win rate is kinda sad... rip
 
Water is my favourite type, so I've been playing a lot of rain, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. It seems pretty viable, I think I'm just bad at teambuilding and battling.

Main Team:
Pelipper, Barraskewda, Jolteon, Wo-Chien, Donphan, Arcanine

I know that in the OU threads, Wo-Chien has been touted as bad, but I think it's really good in UU. Fantastic bulk that is just added to because of its ability. I've also found that I enjoy Jolteon more than Kilowattrel, especially with Tera Ice. The extra 5BP in speed and SpAtk are worth it for me, especially for how often I tera Jolteon.

Of course, I'm lower tier, so I'm wondering how higher ranked players are finding rain.
 
^-
Rain is definitely viable. My Day 1 impressions highlighted it as an overbearing presence, but as balance teams have developed and anti-rain Tera options have emerged, it seems to be a pretty healthy presence in the metagame. It helps that Gastrodon and Quagsire got hazards so they are much easier to fit on teams, which makes stuff like CB Barraskewda easier to play around.

This also means that the metagame is well-equipped for rain, or at least the standard rain ideas of Pelipper + CB Skewda/Floatzel + Golduck + Kilowattrel. If you want to really succeed with rain, particularly on the ladder, its better to break the mold.

The best option imo to catch teams off guard is using Mystic Water Barraskewda and Floatzel with Grass Tera Blast. You can usually lure in Gastrodon and Quagsire pretty easily if the opponent has them by playing like its Band early on and then catching them with Tera Blast mid to endgame. This is done just by clicking Water move, since a Mystic Water hit can look like a Jolly or low roll CB hit. I like Floatzel more for it since Wave Crash's power helps offset the loss of CB.

Another really strong option is just running Azumarill. This Pokemon is already absurd on offense teams and with rain its nigh unwallable and really hard to revenge. Tera Water rain-boosted Aqua Jet is monsterous.

And of course don't disrespect Pelipper itself. It has a respectable Special Attack and really good STAB coverage. Sometimes you can swing a game by using Tera Ground Pelipper to block a Volt Switch and hitting Rotom with a juicy rain-boosted Surf or Hydro Pump to put it in range for Skewda. Floatzel, or Azu.

Given the current state of UU Alpha, rain seems beneficial to the overall landscape of the meta. If there is an issue with it, which I believe there really isn't at the moment, it lies more with the abusers (Azumarill) or Terastallization than Pelipper, Drizzle, or even Damp Rock.
 
1671217804902.png

Azumarill @ Assault Vest
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Trailblaze / Superpower


I am a big fan of AV Azu, which is really a throwback to XY OU. I think trailblaze is worth it for Quag and Gastro but feel free to run Superpower. You generally should not tera tank Azu because water fairy is great.

1671229903423.png

Indeedee (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Psychic / Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam / Tera Blast
- Encore / Healing Wish
- Trick

I also like Indeedee as a scarf user. It's a little unfortunate this thing isn't in the base 100 speed tier (so you could switch into mence to encore it on the dd) but psychic surge is always nice. I did not realize that it lost Expanding Force which really sucks and is a pretty baffling decision on Nintendo's part but what are you gonna do. I think having some form of emergency anti-priority in this tier is near mandatory. Tera Blast is for bisharp only and realistically you should address it elsewhere on your team but it's a neat tech.
 
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I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned, I just really wanted to say that I love tera poison quagsire. Sitting on belly drum azu if you're unaware, sitting on CB Barra if you're absorb (unless it's random psychic fang), being immune to toxic, and especially having a 100% accurate toxic are all really nice on slower bulkier teams. Staying in on espath/poltea to get the guaranteed toxic before dipping out to blissey/sableye is a great feeling.
 
I've seen a few people use Drifblim in the kickoff tour. As a mon that never saw UU play in the past (to my knowledge), what does it do in this meta?
 
Rawbi said:
I've seen a few people use Drifblim in the kickoff tour. As a mon that never saw UU play in the past (to my knowledge), what does it do in this meta?
Click to expand...

Drifblim mainly sees use as a bulky Defogger, and hazard removal is a very valuable resource since its roster of candidates has dramatically shrunk since last gen. It has (semi)-reliable recovery with Strength Sap, utility options like Will-O-Wisp, and a typing that can be kinda neat for pivoting around. That being said its not a mon you should first go to, as there's more reliable removal options in the tier like Talonflame, Donphan, or Tsareena for instance, and even when invested its bulk is mediocre at best. The typing also gives it weaknesses to a ton of common attacking types.

I imagine a lot of them run something like this:

Drifblim @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Aftermath
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog
- Strength Sap
- Shadow Ball

Its a niche pick people are using due to a lack of much better options from the looks of things.
 
I've been having a lot of fun with this set on the ladder, so I present to you...

:swsh/grafaiai:

Grafaiai @ Life Orb
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Low Kick

...this monstrosity. Normally, Grafaiai is used to disrupt the opposing team with priority Encore, priority Parting Shot, etc. This set, however, forgoes Grafaiai's natural propensity to be an annoyance and turns it into a dangerous attacker in its own right.

If Grafaiai can get a chance to set up a Swords Dance, its excellent Speed tier and great coverage make it a genuinely scary 'mon to face down. Gunk Shot is a strong STAB move, being able to even 2HKO solid resists, with a chance to poison on top of it. Knock Off is a generally good coverage move and has the utility of removing the target's item. Low Kick nails Bisharp and 2HKOs Tinkaton, who are immune to Gunk Shot, resist Knock Off, and KO you back.

EVs are standard fare, not much to say. Tera Dark's purpose is threefold: it turns Grafaiai's Psychic weakness into an immunity, gives STAB to Knock Off, and although this is more niche, blocks Prankster priority from opposing Pokemon. Since Grafaiai's own Prankster is almost completely unused, Poison Touch is the Ability of choice. There's probably something cool you could do with Unburden, but the added poison chance for Knock Off and Low Kick is likely better.

SD Grafaiai has put in a surprising amount of work in the (admittedly few) games I've played with it, and I hope you have fun with it if you try it out!
 
Been playing the tier a lot and honestly I love it and think it's rly nice and overall balanced, but there is 1 non-espathra elephant in the room that i'm surprised people haven't been talking about too much on here considering it's what a lot of tour players (myself included) are looking at as a day 1 beta ban for how broken it is.

hydreigon.gif.m.1668741134

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Substitute

I don't see a world where Hydreigon stays with tera. Without tera, probably? But with tera, being able to just beat every single answer the more traditional sets have, getting free subs on super common staples such as Gastrodon and Quagsire or even Tinkaton if paired with flame body, and having no answers all around thanks to how good of a coverage dark-steel is, Hydreigon is just too good to stick around. Also pairs super well with mons such as Pawmot, whos only answered by stuff that gives hydra free subs and you're back to starting point all over again. There isn't much more to say, the mon is broken, has no answers and abuses like half of the tier, Balance is super held back by its presence as it singlehandedly demolishes that playstyle unless you're carrying something like body press quag, and the only real way to deal with it otherwise is by not giving it space through offensive pressure. I do think Hydreigon is the only non-Espathra mon that should be looked at day 1.

Aside from Espathra and Hydreigon, I think there are 2 other mons that I'd probably vote ban onto atm but I don't think they're nearly as problematic as the other 2.

pawmot.gif.m.1668741134


And before we start, no, I don't Revival Blessing is the problem. Pawmot is just really hard to deal with and both Scarf and Band are amazing rn. There are no safe switchins, the best ones being Palossand and Brambleghast but both of them are 2hko'd by Ice punch, Scarf atm running seed bomb as main option makes it so Quagsire and Gastrodon are also not safe at all to send into it, and doesn't even get punished by Talonflame thanks to Natural Cure. Answering this is mostly just guessing games on what it's gonna click and what not, and that together with how dumb the double shock+tera interaction is for endgames and Revival Blessing being a nice bailout tool to have in dire situations or to snowball an advantage after a good trade, makes me think that Pawmot has no place in this tier even tho it's the funniest dude to click moves with.

gengar.gif.m.1668741134


I think i'm gonna wait until beta to have a better idea of how good Gengar is. Specs is obviously the main thing, the only non-Grafaiai switchins are Tinkaton and Gastrodon who both can die from tera after taking an initial Shadow Ball. Sub 3a is unusable atm due to Grafaiai still running prankster encore, but there will be way less reasons to run that lemur set after Espathra goes and so think that set will be worth trying. Scarf is what most people are running Gengar for atm but i'm unsure why as it lacks damage and it's inconsistent as a speed control tool due to that. Tera is definitely a big factor in answering Gengar as the types that resists it's stabs are already good on the few switchins it has, but needing a tera commit to have an answer to specs is by no means healthy. I don't see a world where specs isn't over the line, but maybe some meta adaptments can save it from going to UUBL yet another time.

Outside of these, I think nothing else has felt over the line for me recently. Re: Tera - I love it in our tier. The only mons who I think break it are Hydreigon and arguably Hatterene (although i haven't felt it too much), but otherwise having adaptive counterplay to threats is awesome, i haven't felt the "when will they tera" thing nearly as much as in OU and so I really wish we get to keep it, hopefully unrestricted too. Hope my grammar wasn't the worst cause i'm tired as heck atm
 
Lyss said:
Been playing the tier a lot and honestly I love it and think it's rly nice and overall balanced, but there is 1 non-espathra elephant in the room that i'm surprised people haven't been talking about too much on here considering it's what a lot of tour players (myself included) are looking at as a day 1 beta ban for how broken it is.

hydreigon.gif.m.1668741134

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Substitute

I don't see a world where Hydreigon stays with tera. Without tera, probably? But with tera, being able to just beat every single answer the more traditional sets have, getting free subs on super common staples such as Gastrodon and Quagsire or even Tinkaton if paired with flame body, and having no answers all around thanks to how good of a coverage dark-steel is, Hydreigon is just too good to stick around. Also pairs super well with mons such as Pawmot, whos only answered by stuff that gives hydra free subs and you're back to starting point all over again. There isn't much more to say, the mon is broken, has no answers and abuses like half of the tier, Balance is super held back by its presence as it singlehandedly demolishes that playstyle unless you're carrying something like body press quag, and the only real way to deal with it otherwise is by not giving it space through offensive pressure. I do think Hydreigon is the only non-Espathra mon that should be looked at day 1.

Aside from Espathra and Hydreigon, I think there are 2 other mons that I'd probably vote ban onto atm but I don't think they're nearly as problematic as the other 2.

pawmot.gif.m.1668741134


And before we start, no, I don't Revival Blessing is the problem. Pawmot is just really hard to deal with and both Scarf and Band are amazing rn. There are no safe switchins, the best ones being Palossand and Brambleghast but both of them are 2hko'd by Ice punch, Scarf atm running seed bomb as main option makes it so Quagsire and Gastrodon are also not safe at all to send into it, and doesn't even get punished by Talonflame thanks to Natural Cure. Answering this is mostly just guessing games on what it's gonna click and what not, and that together with how dumb the double shock+tera interaction is for endgames and Revival Blessing being a nice bailout tool to have in dire situations or to snowball an advantage after a good trade, makes me think that Pawmot has no place in this tier even tho it's the funniest dude to click moves with.

gengar.gif.m.1668741134


I think i'm gonna wait until beta to have a better idea of how good Gengar is. Specs is obviously the main thing, the only non-Grafaiai switchins are Tinkaton and Gastrodon who both can die from tera after taking an initial Shadow Ball. Sub 3a is unusable atm due to Grafaiai still running prankster encore, but there will be way less reasons to run that lemur set after Espathra goes and so think that set will be worth trying. Scarf is what most people are running Gengar for atm but i'm unsure why as it lacks damage and it's inconsistent as a speed control tool due to that. Tera is definitely a big factor in answering Gengar as the types that resists it's stabs are already good on the few switchins it has, but needing a tera commit to have an answer to specs is by no means healthy. I don't see a world where specs isn't over the line, but maybe some meta adaptments can save it from going to UUBL yet another time.

Outside of these, I think nothing else has felt over the line for me recently. Re: Tera - I love it in our tier. The only mons who I think break it are Hydreigon and arguably Hatterene (although i haven't felt it too much), but otherwise having adaptive counterplay to threats is awesome, i haven't felt the "when will they tera" thing nearly as much as in OU and so I really wish we get to keep it, hopefully unrestricted too. Hope my grammar wasn't the worst cause i'm tired as heck atm
Click to expand...

I always laugh when I see people running Iron Juggalo or whatever it’s called when you can run the objectively better Hydreigon. I agree, with Tera it’s probably a bit much.

I also agree on Pawmot. It vaguely reminds me of Dugtrio where I’m playing this invisible game of not letting Pawmot ever get a free turn or switch because having to kill a hydreigon or espathra twice is usually gg. The fact it has very usable offensive prowess is wild. There’s also the bug thing with blessing it’s obviously fine.

Hot take - I like gengar in the tier. I don’t find it overly burdensome to revenge and I appreciate its noticeably higher speed and power level compared to the rest of UU’s special attackers. Obviously my opinion changes when it’s getting revived but I feel it’s just great but not broken at this time.
 
(So I posted this as a new thread then someone told me you had to get permission to do that and then a mod removed it so I’m posting here. Is why you should read the rules first)


How viable do you think these sets are?



Tauros-Paldea-Fire/Water ((M) @ Salac Berry/Liechi berry (I think Salac is better because there’s no use being strong if you get outspeed and KOd, but I know there are time where I wish I had Liechi, such as if you were unable to use bulk up, needs testing OR maybe Agility + Liechi could be good. It kinda ruins being able to set up on phys attackers though)

Ability: Cud Chew

Tera Type: idk but you probably want a defensive terra type or Tera into a stab for more damage

EVs: full hp full attack adamant. Another thing you could do is to make your hp number divisible by 4 so only 3 subs are needed for salac berry activation. The upside is less time needed to setup for a sweep and more hp to tank priority such as Slither Wing first impression which would kill at 1% hp if you didn’t have a sub up. The downside is sometimes you actually want the fourth sub and I’m pretty sure hazards ruin this plan. Full attack +nature is so you miss out on as little KOs as possible and are also more threatening before setup so it’s not useless if you can’t do the thing. I’m sure more specialised EVs are better so you can set up on Pawmot for example but it would take work so I might update later.

- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Raging Bull
- Close Combat (Body press can be used but is really dependent on boosts and is just low damage)


I think fire is better than water because according to https://pokemondb.net/tools/type-coverage fire/fighting STAB hits more Pokémon. Not to mention you’re also immune to burn. Water gets talonflame but I don’t think anything else is especially important (Feel free to prove me wrong though) but both have their defensive merits.

Upsides: Win condition that (Probably) won’t get banned on January and can be useful before setup, defensive utility (Not sure to what extent but it’s some), funny

Downsides/Weaknesses: Most things stopping setup sweepers stop this guy, status, likely needs support from screens and stuff, priority (If you don’t have a sub, if you’re 25% hp you could be good though because most priorities are physical), opportunity cost from not using a more consistent set, sound based moves such as Noivern’s Boomburst


Farigiraf @ Salac Berry/Petaya berry (What goes for Tauros goes for this guy)

Ability: Cud Chew

Tera Type: idk

EVs: full SpA full speed timid/modest. Unlike Tauros with a base 100 this guy is an awful 55 so it probably wants investment outspeeding things even at +2

IVs: 0 Atk

- Substitute
- Nasty Plot/Calm mind (I have not done Calm Mind yet)
- Psyshock/Hyper voice (Psyshock beats bliss and is a better attacking type but HV and shadow ball is an unresisted combo. However I like psyshock better because I haven’t seen any dark types around other than hydreigon and it’s a better attacking type in general being good against fighting types. Stored power is something that could be fine but it requires more setup and likely needs calm mind to really be worth it. Because this Pokémon can’t get 404 hp you get ruined by the blissey line without psyshock)
- Shadow Ball


This is probably worse than Tauros due to lower speed, worse stats and is therefore less good before the setup. I don’t have much to say because the upside and downside is about the same as Tauros. It beats Dragalge though, which is a huge pain in Tauros‘s side. I don’t know how good that Pokémon is, all I know is that I’ve seen it around.


I think these can be viable but it’s a gimmick because you need to get 3 or 4 subs up or take just the right amount of damage to activate the berry. When it does work it is hilarious. I made two teams (One of them features both) and they do put in work (Tauros more than farigiraf). The teams definitely aren’t the most well-constructed thing :/


Replays (Aren’t against top players by any means but should be good enough to show off the strat, I’m sorry I couldn’t get more replays I forgot to save most)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1744632819 (The team is trash because my younger brother begged me to use swords dance Swalot and other mons like that)


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1744737446


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1744750937
They did something? Tauros would probably have won if that crab wasn’t holding focus sash. Mostly I just wanna highlight elecktross surviving STAB 180 BASE POWER +2 STORED POWER. How did that happen.
 
PeachJuiceOwO said:
Tauros-Paldea-Fire/Water ((M) @ Salac Berry/Liechi berry (I think Salac is better because there’s no use being strong if you get outspeed and KOd, but I know there are time where I wish I had Liechi, such as if you were unable to use bulk up, needs testing OR maybe Agility + Liechi could be good. It kinda ruins being able to set up on phys attackers though)

Ability: Cud Chew

Tera Type: idk but you probably want a defensive terra type or Tera into a stab for more damage

EVs: full hp full attack adamant. Another thing you could do is to make your hp number divisible by 4 so only 3 subs are needed for salac berry activation. The upside is less time needed to setup for a sweep and more hp to tank priority such as Slither Wing first impression which would kill at 1% hp if you didn’t have a sub up. The downside is sometimes you actually want the fourth sub and I’m pretty sure hazards ruin this plan. Full attack +nature is so you miss out on as little KOs as possible and are also more threatening before setup so it’s not useless if you can’t do the thing. I’m sure more specialised EVs are better so you can set up on Pawmot for example but it would take work so I might update later.

- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Raging Bull
- Close Combat (Body press can be used but is really dependent on boosts and is just low damage)
Click to expand...

Cud Chew's really wack, but if you're gonna make it work, I recommend using Water Tauros to have a much better defensive typing, and pairing it with Wish support like Scream Tail. Cud Chew's main problem is that Tauros needs to both A) get in 25% HP range and B) stay alive for two turns after that, and Substitute won't really cut it to stop that much damage.

Sitrus could also work to this effect, letting you Bulk Up more in the face of stronger attackers, and giving you a good excuse to spam Substitute when necessary, and being a more efficient short-term recovery tool.
 
PeachJuiceOwO said:
I don’t have experience with Ori other than gen 7 doubles dancer shenanigans but you already have Kilo-bird likely outclassing Pom-Pom and ghost is a great offensive type. It probably depends of what you’re using it for
Click to expand...

Pom pom and kilowattrel are fairly different as pokemon really. Kilowattrel is mostly about that offensive speed control with some smaller defensive utilities from the typing volt absorb and roost while Pom Pom has quiver dance to set it apart on top of the revelation dance - tera interaction that acts like tera blast to give it free coverage making it more of a breaker / sweeper. It’s also got fog which I’ve used it for before <.<

On the original question sensu arguably compresses more thanks to spinblocking decently and can flip its typing too with tera fighting for hyd bish etc to be a kind of threatening sweeper (altho it stops spinblocking when it does which can be problematic if you do early without a second ghost) but I sort of prefer Pom Pom more cause of the better base typing, like tera water on it especially too which still keeps a good defensive typing after which pom Pom gets away with much better due to its base defensive profile compared to sensu which forces more iffy tera types defensively.

both are fairly specific nicher pokemon though but are both neat to play with. Like sensu more for hard offense / spikestack and Pom Pom more with less hazard focus on more balance style.
 
could assault vest slither wing be viable? specifically:

Slither Wing @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trailblaze
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Wild Charge
 
potaeto said:
could assault vest slither wing be viable? specifically:

Slither Wing @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trailblaze
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Wild Charge
Click to expand...

If you're gonna run Slither WIng, you REALLY want to run First Impression. FI is what makes Slither Wing tick and means it's not bait to just lose a game to DD Mence or Haxorus or CM Espathra mid and late game. Trailblaze doesn't really help with any matchup Wild Charge Slither struggles with (Hippowdon, residual damage, Altaria) so I'm not sure on it over FI or even Leech Life to get some form of sustain.
 
PrincessGardevoir said:
If you're gonna run Slither WIng, you REALLY want to run First Impression. FI is what makes Slither Wing tick and means it's not bait to just lose a game to DD Mence or Haxorus or CM Espathra mid and late game. Trailblaze doesn't really help with any matchup Wild Charge Slither struggles with (Hippowdon, residual damage, Altaria) so I'm not sure on it over FI or even Leech Life to get some form of sustain.
Click to expand...
oop didnt even realize i had u turn instead of first impression lol
i put trailblaze to OHKO quag/gastro as i found that was the only thing my team struggled with but i just did the damage calcs and this thing barely 2HKO's it so i guess flame charge would be better
 
Squawkabilly isn't a great Mon, but he's cute, so I'm determined to make him work.

He does have a unique niche in that he's the only Pokémon with the combination of Intimidate and Parting Shot, acting as a psuedo-Memento which doesn't kill you. I think this is his best bet:

Squawkabilly-Blue @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Parting Shot
- Roost
- Taunt
- Brave Bird

Obviously, don't use Tera, but if you must then I guess Brave Bird is a panic button nuke. It's a shame this thing's defenses are so bad, because PS+Intimidate+Taunt is a pretty good combo, especially in UU where Gholdengo isn't there to ruin it's day. Has anyone used this lil guy?
 
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