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np: UU - Can't Touch This

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Lol franky I have the same 6 pokemon...

Only problem with Gorebyss is that Modest ones are outsped by Scarf P-Z >< and Ludicolo is pretty useless without a Swords Dance.

TrickScarf Uxie screws Ambipom over and SD Absol comes in on Uxie when it sets Rain up and will wreck the whole team provided both Ambipom and Kabutops are dead.
 
Me and Golden Sun had a really great Rain Dance vs Rain Dance match just now, lol. Unfortunately for him, the Rain ran out when his Gorebyss was against my 1% Uxie :(

Speaking of Gorebyss, why would you run specs? Unless it really does 2HKO everything, it seems like a waste of rain turns to me.

franky, that's an interesting combination of sweepers you have. Using 3 SD users must be painful lol :)
 
Yeah that was the closest match I've ever had. It really does 2 K.O everything other then Slowking (just found that out). EVERYTHING.
 
252+ Specs Gorebyss Surf in the rain vs:
0/252+ Chansey: 538 Atk vs 339 Def & 641 HP (95 Base Power): 243 - 286 (37.91% - 44.62%)
252/0 Milotic: 538 Atk vs 284 Def & 394 HP (95 Base Power): 144 - 171 (36.55% - 43.40%)
252/252+ Venusaur: 538 Atk vs 328 Def & 364 HP (95 Base Power): 125 - 147 (34.34% - 40.38%)

nonetheless, some other calcs are pretty impressive (such as EASILY 2HKOing 252/252+ Umbreon and 252/0 Cresselia as well as 2HKOing 252/0 Azumarill and 252/0 Slowbro with SR). the things it doesn't 2HKO are things that an all-special Gorebyss would lose to anyways so it's not really too big a deal, I guess. the main drawback is that you become instant setup bait for water absorbers ("or dry skin Pokemon") like Toxicroak, Poliwrath, and even Quagsire, whereas with a LO set you would be able to kill them with Psychic or HP Grass.

speaking of water absorbers: I think they are one of the best ways to deal with rain for offensive teams. the main problem w/ sticking something like an Umbreon on your offense is that it's massive setup bait, but a SD or NP Toxicroak does nothing to slow down your offensive momentum against non-rain teams. against rain teams, they can waste rain turns, give you fun mindgames, and pull off sweeps pretty easily since most teams only have a few checks to them.

also an extremely underrated method of beating rain is using a jolly SD kabutops of your own, which is again an extremely threatening sweeper of its own outside of rain. sub CM Raikou and company are still extremely scary once rain has run out.

all in all, I don't think rain is something that needs to be banned at all. it's a team style that you need to prepare for. just as nearly the entire UU ladder crumbles before an intelligent player using a stall team, you can win quick matches on the ladder with rain. it just means people need to build teams with these teams in mind.
 
@ Pizzaman

Well it doesn't have part Rock- meaning it won't fall to stuff like Toxicroak's Vaccum Wave and Hitmontop's Mach Punch.

@ whistle

Actually the magic with rain dance is that it fares well with every style of play from my experience. I have to agree though a couple of my loses came from an intelligent player using full-stall. However, the games were not difficult though. The point I'm trying to cross is that rain dance is far too easy of a style of play, even against stall. I think that merits a discussion for banning. anyways, i found that the best weapon for stall is swords dance ludicolo. bring it on omastar - the more likely scenario. swords dance on a predicted switch to chansey then begin to wreck havok. Since most physical walls fall to Water- and Grass-type moves, Ludicolo is an ideal choice for stall breaking.

@ erazor

yeah, i tried to build a physical-ho rain dance team but failed to do so. i just took advantage of the one-sided beating allowing gorbyss to sweep lategame.
 
But Omastar is slightly faster, resists Fake Out and Quick Attack, and has better physical defense to take neutral priority better. But it comes down to personal preference I guess.
 
Ludicolo is possibly the only "mixed sweeper", using Focus Punch on its special sets to beat Chansey. Otherwise, Mixed is a no-no. You need the power to be concentrated in one spectrum for rain to be so deadly.

By the way, Registeel is amazing on a Rain team. Now, you're probably going "wtf you lose momentum". Well, it acts as a nice bulky Rain setup mon, and can explode. But his real value is when your Rain runs out. At that time, your team is incredibly vulnerable, and when your opponent sends in Raikou or Mismagius, you're probably fucked. But then Registeel pops up and saves the day.
Seriously, try it.
 
Erazor said:
Ludicolo is possibly the only "mixed sweeper", using Focus Punch on its special sets to beat Chansey. Otherwise, Mixed is a no-no. You need the power to be concentrated in one spectrum for rain to be so deadly.
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k I just thought it might be worth trying and another idea is spikes support useful on a RD team?
 
Golden Sun said:
k I just thought it might be worth trying and another idea is sikes support useful on a RD team?
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Theoretically, Spikes are good, and Quilfish or Omastar can set them up. However, I'm unsure of its practical viability. You're probably using Rain turns to set em up, and Omastar is better off attacking anyway.

What I guess happens is that you start the game as if you're not using Rain Dance, set up spikes, and then slam your opponent with rain. hmmm... doesn't sound half bad :)
 
Spikes really aren't worth the time on a RD team, the game goes too fast for them to be effective. A RD team with Uxie on it will always beat me due to my Toxicroak set, which is the only thing that keeps me from losing to every possible form of rain already...It's absurdly powerful, it has its checks, but the only reason people stop playing it is because they get bored with how easy it is to win.
 
Sadly, Registeel does not like Toxicroak ... or SubPunchers like Poliwrath and Azumarill. Registeel + Uxie is a pretty solid Rain set-up duo... but you can't really lead with either...

And I just met someone with a lead TrickScarf Drifblim... didn't realise Unburden activates every time you Trick... so you disable one Pokemon and you can Explode on the switch-in...
 
Erazor said:
By the way, Registeel is amazing on a Rain team. Now, you're probably going "wtf you lose momentum". Well, it acts as a nice bulky Rain setup mon, and can explode. But his real value is when your Rain runs out. At that time, your team is incredibly vulnerable, and when your opponent sends in Raikou or Mismagius, you're probably fucked. But then Registeel pops up and saves the day.
Seriously, try it.
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Yep, Regi on Rain teams is pretty much a guarentee of a full 16 turn devastation. Trust me, I learnt that the hard way. After switch-stalling the first 8 turns, I was fucked over when regi RD on my milotic and blew up in my fucking face. gg.
 
Sacrificed your Registeel/Clefable/Spiritomb Thunder-waving/Burning my Kabutops?

Heal Bell Uxie to the rescue! LOL
 
Actually the magic with rain dance is that it fares well with every style of play from my experience.
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What about Hail teams that everyone and their mother have been hyping up to the extremes during the last meta?

Now, I'm not very expierenced with UU, but in OU Abomasnow means pretty much gg to any Rain Dance team.
 
Cresselia + Registeel duo messes up this meta so much. I was able to beat one, but it was damn hard. Forunately for me, the player didn't play too well and let my Raikou set up (He managed to take down my Arcanine though with a Scarfed Absol. ES just wasn't enough).
 
Smurf. said:
Yep, Regi on Rain teams is pretty much a guarentee of a full 16 turn devastation. Trust me, I learnt that the hard way. After switch-stalling the first 8 turns, I was fucked over when regi RD on my milotic and blew up in my fucking face. gg.
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I'm pretty sure that was against me, lol.

What about Hail teams that everyone and their mother have been hyping up to the extremes during the last meta?

Now, I'm not very expierenced with UU, but in OU Abomasnow means pretty much gg to any Rain Dance team.
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Kabutops rapes Hail with an SD, barring an untimely Stone Edge miss.
 
j. franky said:
@ Golden Sun

It really depends, I'm pretty sure Cresselia is 3HKOd without Moonlight by any special sweeper with Surf. Well anyways, on one occasion, I have 2HKOd Chansey with Surf and Hydro Pump the following turn with Stealth Rock down. The fact that the best special wall in the tier falls to someone like Gorybyss is insane.

Rain Dance is pretty much an easy team to use, and most players play it with autopilot meaning they know which move to use everytime. Surf, Waterfall, Aqua Jet, Hydro Pump. Resisted or non-resisted its going to hurt. I've beaten some prolific UU battlers with rain dance alone with minimal thinking. I'm not trying to brag, but I seriously think Rain Dance is broken. I will post my team here and i encourage people to try it out on the ladder and tell me how easy you guys win it.

Ambipom / Uxie / gorbyss / SD kabutops / SD Ludicolo / SD Qwilfish

Ambipom has Taunt / Rain Dance / U-turn / fake out (252 HP / 4 Def / 252 spe)
uxie has U-turn / rain dance / psychic / Stealth Rock (evs to outpace jolly toxicroak)

the rest are basic 252/252. try it out.

Just a basic concept with this: overwhelm special walls with sd sweepers, making a clear path for gorbyss to sweep.
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I tried this team with a few changes (Double Hit > Fake out on Ambipom, Rain Dance > Swords Dance on Qwilfish) and I found that it had a lot of problems with 3 pokemon in particular..Raikou, Porygonz and Mismagius. If rain isn't around I have no choice but to sacrifice one or (usually) two of my team to deal with them. I figured that a specially defensive Registeel (with Explosion, RD, Earthquake, Iron Head/Shadow Claw) could probably deal with them, as well as any opposing water types. However the problem is what slot to give up.

Ambipom is a really awesome lead and without him there's no revenge killer or momentum at the beginning
Uxie covers a lot of threats too, just like Registeel, so replacing it would probably cause more problems than it solves (or maybe not?)
Replacing any RD sweepers mean only half the team can actually use RD to sweep, which just leaves a bad taste in my mouth

So yeah I'm really hung up on where to put Registeel, Uxie seems like the best bet but it's pretty shady. Maybe sacrifising stuff to those 3 threats is part of the playstyle?
 
Yuggles said:
I tried this team with a few changes (Double Hit > Fake out on Ambipom, Rain Dance > Swords Dance on Qwilfish) and I found that it had a lot of problems with 3 pokemon in particular..Raikou, Porygonz and Mismagius. If rain isn't around I have no choice but to sacrifice one or (usually) two of my team to deal with them. I figured that a specially defensive Registeel (with Explosion, RD, Earthquake, Iron Head/Shadow Claw) could probably deal with them, as well as any opposing water types. However the problem is what slot to give up.

Ambipom is a really awesome lead and without him there's no revenge killer or momentum at the beginning
Uxie covers a lot of threats too, just like Registeel, so replacing it would probably cause more problems than it solves (or maybe not?)
Replacing any RD sweepers mean only half the team can actually use RD to sweep, which just leaves a bad taste in my mouth

So yeah I'm really hung up on where to put Registeel, Uxie seems like the best bet but it's pretty shady. Maybe sacrifising stuff to those 3 threats is part of the playstyle?
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Those guys are never a threat. Raikou maybe, but it never gets the chance to do anything with the overwhelming power of Rain Dance. Ambipom lead guarantees you a Rain Dance. Mismagius is not a problem too. Ambipom outpaces, gets a free rain dance then it can sweep. Ludicolo has a high special defense stat, it can take a shadow ball and ohko back with waterfall. If anything, Kabutops can take a chunk from mismagius and raikou. Uxie has enough bulk to take a Raikou and set up Rain Dance.

Tip with my team: conserve your rain dance set ups, especially ambipom since it can come back later and set up or fake out stuff for priority.
 
It's only me that don't have that much problems with RD teams?

IIRC, out of the 6 last battles i had with RD teams, i won 5 with 3 different teams(well, one doesn't count because it's almost a anti RD team with Gardevoir and Torterra to take Kabutops off, together with a Agility Gorebyss).. lost one because of another threat no one mentioned: Raikou spamming Thunder.

Speaking of Torterra: if you use Registeel, beware of this one. It WILL switch in on Registeel Thunder Wave/Rain Dance and then Earthquake Registeel to death... if Registeel switches out, something will have to take it's Earthquake. If isn't Ludicolo, consider it defeated.

Same for Lanturn. And Torterra can Wood Hammer against Lanturn, meaning even Ludicolo isn't going to save you from getting a poke down.
 
FlareBlitz said:
We removed Garchomp even though its most popular set (SubSalac) had 2 relatively solid counters (Skarm and Bronzong), even though it would be revenged pretty easily by CB Scizor, and even though the common Scarf Latias was a great check for it. It was banned because even though all those Pokemon check/counter it, Magnezone removes half of those checks, and TTar (paired often with Chomp because of Sand Veil anyway) removed Latias. Even when Skarmory and company began running Shed Shell for Magnezone, Garchomp was still considered "broken". Now, regardless of whether you agree with that ban or not, you have to admit that the reasoning and circumstances, at least in this respect, are very similar. In fact, you could copy almost my entire last paragraph and apply it to Garchomp with some minor substitutions. So no, I don't think my argument is flawed on those grounds at all, given the precedent.
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Ok, from where you get your information from I really don't know, but a lot of the stuff you are saying is flat out wrong. This is a digression from the topic at hand, but I might as well sort out the incorrect stuff you're saying.

First off, the most popular set for Garchomp was the Choice Scarf set. The next one on the popularity list was the SD + 3 attack one, so Garchomp effectively had no counters in the game with a Yache Berry. Garchomp was considered 'broken' for this reason, not because of Magnezone removing things like Skarmory and Bronzong in 2008 (and also mostly due to Sand Veil). I didn't partake much in the stage 3 testing of Garchomp, but I doubt much changed since 2008.

As for revenge-killing, Scizor manages something like 55% at most I believe with a CB Bullet Punch. Far from revenge-killing material unlike things like Salamence in OU. The link between Garchomp and Magnezone versus Cresselia and Dugtrio is completely different, mostly because Garchomp never needed Magnezone to complete its work, whereas in the arguments you presented to me, Cresselia sure as hell needs Dugtrio, and it usually never pans out anyway. Dugtrio is quite frail and relatively weak; sure it can remove Cresselia's counters, but then again this thread has presented many other ways to deal with Cresselia because it never enters the match at +3 lol.
 
YaM said:
Sadly, Registeel does not like Toxicroak ... or SubPunchers like Poliwrath and Azumarill. Registeel + Uxie is a pretty solid Rain set-up duo... but you can't really lead with either...

And I just met someone with a lead TrickScarf Drifblim... didn't realise Unburden activates every time you Trick... so you disable one Pokemon and you can Explode on the switch-in...
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That would be me, even talked about it on here a while ago.

The set is:
Drifblim @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 70 Atk/188 Spd/252 SAtk
Mild nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Trick
- Explosion

EVs to outspeed Ambipom, Max Special Attack for doing some damage and the rest in attack for explosion.

HIGHLY recommended as an anti-lead. KOs non-sash variants of lead Froslass (common since more people are opting for the bulky version), practically walls non-payback ambipom and incapacitates it with Scarf, plus if you grab the LO then you have Unburden boost plus LO boost with good neutral coverage. Uxies are no problem, TrickScarf versions are completely shut down and the rest can be hit by Shadow Ball. Every other lead can be exploded upon. If you switch out and can find a way to switch back in safely (harder than it sounds) then you can trick again to activate Unburden once more and explode on whatever.

Of course, the set is suicidal in nature and is for setting a good offensive tempo early on, as well as stopping or limiting set-up leads. Try it out for yourselves, it's fun and different. Pwns all the noobs too, that's always a plus.
 
I was referring to the Stage 3 Garchomp test, not the pre-Plat Garchomp test. Pre-plat had no BP Scizor and no OU Latias.

Yache chomp fell out of favor during Stage 3 due to Latias; the most popular set in Stage 3 was the subSalac set (it could also be the Scarf set, but that's not the one it was banned for either way). Sand Veil played a large part in its removal, but the primary reason was that it only had a few checks, which were easily lured and removed (if not by Magnezone, by the fact that the lack of leftovers made building residual damage much easier). No matter what though, Garchomp is never getting past Skarmory by itself; it needs support, contrary to your assertion.

You mentioned Salamence, and a lot of these arguments could be applied to it as well...the primary difference being that it's much easier to take out due to the Stealth Rock weakness, which is literally the only thing keeping it from Uberdom. Cresselia, on the other hand, is neutral to stealth rock and completely immune to spikes, meaning it can do as Garchomp did and repeatedly switch in and out, weakening its checks with appropriate switch ins, until it's ready to sweep. It does not need a spinner and a Wishpasser to do this, as Mence does, it only needs one or two proper teammates. This makes Cress more like Garchomp than Mence as far as meeting the "easily supportable" characteristic goes, which is the point I was trying to get across.

Ultimately, I say Cresselia is easily supportable because I've experienced just how fast my Cress checks died in the current metagame. It's not easy keeping offensive checks like Drapion or company alive when they lose 1/5th of their health from switching in every time (due to rocks and Froslass), lack recovery, and actually lose to Cresselia after their second switch in.

And finally, Dugtrio might be frail, but it has no problems switching in on Toxic, Thunderwave, Taunt, or boosting moves...which are usually what Cress attracts, because even STAB SE attacks don't 2hko it without a boost.
 
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