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For me, when I played Rain, I lost when the opponent outplayed me, and I won when the opponent didn't. Simple as that. In fact, I'm rarely more confident that the winner simply outplayed the loser in general than I am when playing UU Rain. This doesn't really translate to "broken" to me. That's just my stance on it.
Statements like this hold no weight unless you tell us your team.
For me, I made my spikestacking offense team around having an easier time with Rain. Four out of the six of my pokemon are pretty anti-rain. Qwilfish, Venusaur, Spinbutops, and Scarf Rotom. Rain really limits the creativity of which pokemon I can choose unfortunately, since my Moltres is pretty much dead weight and Rhyperior only sets up on Uxie.
If we're going to be making arguements about why we should ban an item rather than ban a couple of Pokemon, we shouldn't use an arguement that's exactly the same as the arguement that the people who are arguing for the other side are using. Discussions like this tend to go around in circles.
Banning Ludicolo and Kabutops, who have other options outside of rain, such as SubSeed Ludi, which is actually quite decent as of now and Kabutops - SD and Rapid Spin, (I use Kabutops a lot outside of rain!) is much more economical from any standpoint than banning something that is used for one thing and one thing only - setting up rain for eight turns. There's no circle about that really that I see, and no reason why we would ban anything but Damp Rock in the case that we would nominate something for that point.
Could you revive that team and save a few logs for us? I'd be very interested to see them, may even change my stance on Rain but atm FlareBlitz's point of team matchups > skill is ringing especially true with me.
And man, I pity YaM for getting and writing about so many rain logs that nobody seems to care about.
FlareBlitz said:
1) Centralizes the metagame heavily and unduly. Proof: look at toxicroak/poliwrath usage before/after rain surge. Also consider that this was a metagame with Cresselia in it. Yes, Toxicroak usage spiking during a metagame with a fucking cresselia is a big deal. Also check stats on jolly v. adamant on kabutops, and hell, kabutops stats in general. Also leafeon. Also tangrowth. Now you might say "so what, the metagame should adapt, blah blah" because we're talking about every team need 3+ water resists or a water immunity and a couple of resists. What the fuck is that?
I don't find that convincing at all. One of the reasons Milotic usage is so high is clearly because Moltres is a massive threat. Milotic is a great counter to Moltres and so it has high usage. So what? This doesn't prove that Moltres is overpowered, it just shows that the metagame is adapting. Cresselia sets up on Haze-less Milotic (depending on set it can set up on Haze-carrying Milotic too); that didn't stop Milotic from being a top-tier Pokemon during the Cresslia era.
As for Kabutops stats, well, if you're going to use a Kabutops for whatever reason - maybe as a lead, maybe you're relying on it as a spinner, maybe it's just a generic Swords Dance sweeper with fair physical bulk and a priority move - then you might as well make it Jolly and so serve as a rain counter as well. It doesn't cost too much to make that investment and it casts a significant safety net against rain. Again consider Milotic, a fair amount of which run Calm. Calm Milotic is a better counter to Moltres + Alakazam + other special sweepers while still being a fine physical wall, but the fact that Moltres / Alakazam / Mismagius etc have a major impact on the metagame doesn't make them BL. Spiritomb usage is likely as high as it is partly because of Alakazam's influence, but that alone doesn't make Alakazam BL either.
If there's a point to your argument, I'm afraid I'm not getting it.
The problem I have with rain is that it's so unpredictable. There are the staples that make a good rain team, i.e: Uxie, Ambipom, Electrode, Registeel, Kabutops, Omastar, Ludicolo, and Gorebyss. So it's relatively easy to prepare for these Pokemon with stuff like Scarf Rotom, Toxicroak, Venusaur and Milotic which incidentally make up a good portion of most people's teams anyway.
But then, your opponent pulls something like a mixed Huntail or Floatzel or a CB Relicanth out of their ass and suddenly your Uxie that you thought could wall Huntail gets fucked sideways by a combination of Aqua Tail + Hydro Pump and your Scarf Rotom that you made sure could outrun Gorebyss, Kabutops, and Omastar in the rain gets killed off by Floatzel's Waterfall because it's so fucking fast and your Registeel and Toxicroak gets owned by Relicanth's Earthquake. And, it's incredibly easy to bypass Toxicroak with HP Psychic anyway, (which I'm shocked most special rain sweepers don't even bother to carry).
And not only that, even if you happen to Taunt your opponent's Lead Uxie from the beginning with something like your Lead Ambipom, you have no idea that his team is a Rain Dance team because odds are he just U-turned out from the get-go. So your opponent brings in something like Hitmontop which normally doesn't scream "hi I'm a rain dance setter", so you just U-turn or switch out to your Hitmontop counter, probably Spiritomb, fearing a Fake Out/Mach Punch, and he suddenly uses Rain Dance. Now your opponent has Rain Dance up, ready to sweep your sorry ass with something like Gorebyss. This is just an example but a viable one.
So basically what I'm saying is, if you don't think Rain is easy to set up, you obviously either haven't been playing creatively enough or have been playing some astonishingly good players.
The one great fault of rain teams that I found is miss-hax. I can't tell you how many times I've lost just because my Gorebyss missed with Hydro Pump or my Huntail missed with Aqua Tail or my Kabutops missed with Stone Edge. Most rain sweepers are too frail to afford to miss with their attacks, plain and simple, which is probably the greatest reason they aren't completely broken. Rain is basically a high risk, high reward style of play that usually pays off with a reward.
Please tell me you're kidding. When you see Electrode/Rain Dance go up, you can easily predict that your opponent has at least 2 Water types on their team.
But then, your opponent pulls something like a mixed Huntail or Floatzel or a CB Relicanth out of their ass and suddenly your Uxie that you thought could wall Huntail gets fucked sideways by a combination of Aqua Tail + Hydro Pump and your Scarf Rotom that you made sure could outrun Gorebyss, Kabutops, and Omastar in the rain gets killed off by Floatzel's Waterfall because it's so fucking fast and your Registeel and Toxicroak gets owned by Relicanth's Earthquake
I believe those are called "lures". Yes, if the Rain team incorporated one, kudos to them, they successfully outplayed you if it worked. However, please do not tell me that Rain is broken because they outplayed you.
Yes it is, it even says in the intro I've not lost once to rain with that team, lol.
EDIT: And I can't believe I forgot to say this (Man was I getting tired yesterday):
1) Centralizes the metagame heavily and unduly. Proof: look at toxicroak/poliwrath usage before/after rain surge. Also consider that this was a metagame with Cresselia in it. Yes, Toxicroak usage spiking during a metagame with a fucking cresselia is a big deal. Also check stats on jolly v. adamant on kabutops, and hell, kabutops stats in general. Also leafeon. Also tangrowth. Now you might say "so what, the metagame should adapt, blah blah" because we're talking about every team need 3+ water resists or a water immunity and a couple of resists. What the fuck is that?
Overcentralisation is never a argument in whether a Pokemon is broken or not. Yes, you can say that if a Pokemon/Thing is broken, it will centralise the metagame to an extent, but you can never go "Well Pokemon/Thing X overcentralised the metagame, therefore it is broken". No offense, but "Much to learn, you still have". Remember Scizor?? Check the HP Fire stats and tell me how much it went up when Scizor was number 1??
@ Shrang - >.> Well obviously if you see Electrode you know it's a Rain team, however, you don't know immediately if they lead with Uxie. That's what I mean by unpredictable. I even said, odds are you can expect shit like Gorebyss, Omastar, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. You can't always expect stuff like Huntail, Floatzel, Relicanth, or the hundreds of other Pokemon that can use Rain Dance and can be on a Rain team. Odds are, you don't have a counter to Huntail, Floatzel or Relicanth, but you do for the other main sweepers.
Plus I never said I thought rain was broken, just unpredictable. You assume way too much.
Good player (1500s), offensive team, Score: 4-0 (Suicided both)
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
uffin sent out Drapion (lvl 100 Drapion ?).
BEAR GRYLLS_ sent out Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
Drapion used Taunt.
Qwilfish fell for the taunt!
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Qwilfish can't use Spikes after the taunt!
---
Drapion used Swords Dance.
Drapion's attack was sharply raised.
Qwilfish used Waterfall.
Drapion lost 39% of its health.
Drapion's Black Sludge restored a little health!
Drapion restored 6% of its health.
---
Drapion used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Qwilfish lost 100% of its health.
Qwilfish hung on using its Focus Sash!
Qwilfish used Explosion.
Drapion lost 67% of its health.
uffin's Drapion fainted.
BEAR GRYLLS_'s Qwilfish fainted.
---
uffin switched in Claydol (lvl 100 Claydol).
BEAR GRYLLS_ switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Uxie used Yawn.
Claydol became drowsy!
Claydol used Toxic.
Uxie was badly poisoned!
Uxie is hurt by poison!
Uxie lost 6% of its health.
---
uffin switched in Jumpluff (lvl 100 Jumpluff ?).
Uxie used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Uxie is hurt by poison!
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
---
Jumpluff used Encore.
Uxie got an encore!
Uxie used Stealth Rock.
But it failed!
Uxie is hurt by poison!
Uxie lost 19% of its health.
---
BEAR GRYLLS_ switched in Mismagius (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
Jumpluff used Stun Spore.
Mismagius is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
---
Jumpluff used U-turn.
It's not very effective...
Mismagius lost 8% of its health.
uffin switched in Claydol (lvl 100 Claydol).
Pointed stones dug into Claydol.
Claydol lost 6% of its health.
Mismagius used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Claydol's leftovers restored its health a little!
Claydol restored 6% of its health.
---
Claydol used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Mismagius used Memento.
Claydol's attack was harshly lowered.
Claydol's special attack was harshly lowered.
BEAR GRYLLS_'s Mismagius fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
---
BEAR GRYLLS_ switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kabutops.
Kabutops lost 12% of its health.
Kabutops used Swords Dance.
Kabutops's attack was sharply raised.
Claydol used Grass Knot.
It's super effective!
Kabutops lost 37% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Kabutops used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Claydol lost 100% of its health.
uffin's Claydol fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
uffin switched in Blaziken (lvl 100 Blaziken ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blaziken.
Blaziken lost 12% of its health.
uffin switched in Feraligatr (lvl 100 Feraligatr ?).
Pointed stones dug into Feraligatr.
Feraligatr lost 12% of its health.
Kabutops used Aqua Jet.
It's not very effective...
Feraligatr lost 35% of its health.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Feraligatr's leftovers restored its health a little!
Feraligatr restored 6% of its health.
---
Kabutops used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Feraligatr lost 59% of its health.
uffin's Feraligatr fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
uffin switched in Swellow (lvl 100 Swellow ?).
Pointed stones dug into Swellow.
Swellow lost 25% of its health.
Kabutops used Aqua Jet.
Swellow lost 75% of its health.
uffin's Swellow fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
uffin switched in Jumpluff (lvl 100 Jumpluff ?).
Pointed stones dug into Jumpluff.
Jumpluff lost 25% of its health.
Kabutops used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Jumpluff lost 75% of its health.
uffin's Jumpluff fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.
---
uffin switched in Blaziken (lvl 100 Blaziken ?).
Pointed stones dug into Blaziken.
Blaziken lost 12% of its health.
Kabutops used Aqua Jet.
It's super effective!
Blaziken lost 75% of its health.
uffin's Blaziken fainted.
BEAR GRYLLS_ wins!
uffin: gg
BEAR GRYLLS_: gg
uffin has left the room.
EDIT: Gotta go to sport now, I'll post more later.
Tally so far: 5 Wins 0 Losses
Scorelines? embarassing
Counters for them often overlap. If I can counter Kabutops, it is likely that I can for Relicanth or Floatzel too. It is quite safe to say that a Rain team will always get up Rain the first time.
Anyway:
Is there a reason why we have about 5 pages of rain discussion in here when there's a perfectly fine rain thread in the UU subforum?
Please don't try to control what the thread is about. If people feel discussions of rain dance are metagame-relevant, that is what they will talk about in the metagame thread. We didn't make separate threads for every suspect we've had, so why do so for rain?
Ok rain is a lot of things but unpredictable is not one of them. Any serious rain user basically has to run at least either Kabutops or Ludicolo since you're just not getting past Milotic without them. If one decides to forgo the above sweepers to use Huntail/Floatzel/Seaking/Luvdisc/whatever, one is not going to get past many teams. The number of viable rain sweepers is really limited by the presence of defensive stalwarts in uu, which makes rain hardly unpredictable and really rather limited in team building.
If Rain is the biggest metagame trend going on right now, so it should be fair game to discuss in a metagame thread. The discussion came up here, so people are continuing to talk about it here. Why is that a problem?
Btw, I think banning Ludicolo would be the single most significant blow in any Rain team. He's the only thing keeping the likes of Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Poliwrath from singlehandedly dumping on teams. Coincidentally, he's also the one with the least number of checks and counters while Rain is up. That is to say, none really.
I'm not at all saying he's bannable material, I'm just saying that he's probably the best rain sweeper there is and is a consistent roadblock in attempting to deal with it. If Rain ever were to get out of hand, I'd look at him first.
If Rain is the biggest metagame trend going on right now, so it should be fair game to discuss in a metagame thread. The discussion came up here, so people are continuing to talk about it here. Why is that a problem?
Btw, I think banning Ludicolo would be the single most significant blow in any Rain team. He's the only thing keeping the likes of Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Poliwrath from singlehandedly dumping on teams.
No. It isn't. I've been laddering again for a few days and I've fought a rain team maybe.....um twice. And I've barely seen Toxicroak or Poliwrath at all which are apparently needed oh so much in this rain infested metagame.
Bigger metagame trends right now are probably the shitload of Scyther + Fighting-types I've been seeing near every match.
And the Rain thread is there for a reason. Heck, we could have two great threads. One discussing Rain in the Rain thread and one here about other metagame trends, but no, let's all be stubborn about it.
Ok rain is a lot of things but unpredictable is not one of them. Any serious rain user basically has to run at least either Kabutops or Ludicolo since you're just not getting past Milotic without them. If one decides to forgo the above sweepers to use Huntail/Floatzel/Seaking/Luvdisc/whatever, one is not going to get past many teams. The number of viable rain sweepers is really limited by the presence of defensive stalwarts in uu, which makes rain hardly unpredictable and really rather limited in team building.
Why does it seem like nobody abuses Electric types in Rain? There's Lanturn (!), Raichu, Luxray, and Rotom, to name a few, and they can abuse a 100% accurate 120BP STAB move in the rain. Lanturn gets Hydro Pump/Surf boosted as well, and the others can run HP Water (although this would be somewhat risky). This is aside from Electrode, who can't really do shit, by the way.
I don't think rain is broken. In response to some of the arguments I've seen (most of which are FlareBlitz's just because he outlined them in an easy-to-read format):
FlareBlitz said:
1) Centralizes the metagame heavily and unduly. Proof: look at toxicroak/poliwrath usage before/after rain surge. Also consider that this was a metagame with Cresselia in it. Yes, Toxicroak usage spiking during a metagame with a fucking cresselia is a big deal. Also check stats on jolly v. adamant on kabutops, and hell, kabutops stats in general. Also leafeon. Also tangrowth. Now you might say "so what, the metagame should adapt, blah blah" because we're talking about every team need 3+ water resists or a water immunity and a couple of resists. What the fuck is that?
There is no way to prove that rain has a direct correlation with a Pokemon's usage.
First of all, Toxicroak usage didn't spike that much while Cresselia was in UU. It was an increase, but it wasn't that major - although I guess that's up to interpretation.
December 2009 (Cresselia was still banned)
| 34 | Toxicroak | 5279 | 4.86 |
January 2010 (Cresselia enters UU)
| 39 | Toxicroak | 6920 | 5.33 |
February 2010
| 35 | Toxicroak | 6995 | 6.43 |
March 2010 (Cresselia had been banned)
| 26 | Toxicroak | 9730 | 7.82 |
As for Poliwrath, it spiked in usage several times before rain became controversial. I'm not going to deny that Poliwrath probably spiked in part due to rain because it could have. However, it could have as easily increased in usage for some other reason. What were the reasons for the other spikes in Poliwrath usage, back when rain was hardly a contributing factor?
Leafeon and Tangrowth have even weaker correlations to rain. Leafeon is not a strong rain counter, and its first and foremost purpose is as a sweeper; Tangrowth checks more than just Ludicolo / Kabutops and is used as a multi-purpose counter on more defensive teams.
As for Kabutops, I'm not sure what's supposed to be gleaned from the Jolly vs. Adamant stats. Kabutops has ran Adamant forever. If anything, the 34.9% who run Rapid Spin are evidence of the fact that Kabutops is not exclusively run on rain teams.
2) Causes matches to be predicated around team-matchups instead of skill This one is pretty obvious. Remember heysup's team? That one based around swellow/moltres and froslass spikes rape. He basically had a 0% chance of winning against any competent rain user. Not because of his skill, but because his team, which peaked leaderboard, fared horribly against the playstyle. You simply cannot "properly" prepare for rain while also preparing for everything that you need to prepare for in order to be successful in the metagame.
Rain is well-known for decimating offensive teams. Heysup is well-known for his use of offensive teams. To go further in-depth, Heysup's team struggles against rain because it relies heavily on switching in on resistances and taking advantage of higher speed and power to address opposing threats. Rain nullifies both of these advantages. I may be wrong, but I don't think Heysup's team is a good example of the norm. Most other teams are able to cover rain better than his does (that team is outdated anyway).
As for the whole idea behind team match-up: if we are to assume that one cannot prepare for rain and everything else, then it logically follows that one cannot prepare for any type of team and everything else. I do not think that rain forces matches to be any more or less based on team match-up than any other team does. Rather, this is our perception because rain is a common banner for several Pokemon. Say both UUPlayer123's team and a rain team have favorable match-ups against my team. While I can't evaluate UUPlayer123's team in the context of suspect characteristics, I can do so for rain/Damp Rock. Also note that I can take steps to prepare for both UUPlayer123's team and rain teams; in fact, I can create a team that outright beats both of theirs. Basically, team match-up applies to every team; it just so happens that one team can be nominated.
That's not the full extent of the argument, though. Why is preparing for rain any different than preparing for six other Pokemon? Firstly, rain sweepers are faster than nearly anything; secondly, Water-type moves are boosted by the rain; and finally, to counter rain, one must adopt suboptimal Pokemon, sets, or play styles. Please correct me if I left anything out.
I will address the first and second points simultaneously. Rain sweepers still have counters and checks, most of which have already been mentioned before, so I won't go into much depth here.
As for the assertion that these Pokemon are suboptimal. Most rain sweepers are just as suboptimal. Their usefulness happens to be accentuated during rain; well, their counters' usefulness does too. Rain teams abuse normally suboptimal Pokemon to take advantage of the so-called optimal Pokemon. Considering that many so-called optimal Pokemon can also handle the rain sweepers, I would say that's a fair trade-off.
I also want to address the idea of a "suboptimal playstyle". Rain apparently beats the so-called dominant playstyle; if it's considered an optimal playstyle, then why is a playstyle that beats the playstyle that beats the optimal playstyle considered suboptimal?
Plus, who deems playstyles optimal and suboptimal? Why cater to a single designated playstyle?
3) It's easy to play, hard to beat. This ties back in with the other points somewhat. I know I say "rain in the hands of a a competent user", and that's exactly what I mean: competent. Not good. Not amazing. Competent. While I may not win as much using rain as I do with a regular team (and I will say right now that I don't) the fact is I built my rain team in SEVEN MINUTES and do little more than make obvious switches and spam waterfall whenever necessary. My bulky offense team, by comparison, took well over three days to properly build and test, and requires substantial thought on my part because I don't have sweepers on steroids that can plow through resists with the same attack. Seriously, have you guys done any calcs? Kabutops 2hkos Venusaur and fucking Feraligatr with unboosted Waterfall! This cannot be okay!
Rain is undoubtedly easy to play; however, it's rather easy to play with any hyper offensive team (see: BlizzSpam). You don't need to make as many defensive predictions; make the offensive ones and pressure your opponent. The main difference I see is that rain buffs up your sweepers more, which all goes back to the "I believe that there are a sufficient amount of rain checks and counters, etc." argument.
Okay, I know it's hard to express arguments pertaining to rain clearly and concisely because we're talking about multiple Pokemon, arguing multiple points, and looking at the whole thing from several different viewpoints. But first of all, it's the ladder. It's not exactly the pinnacle of player quality there. Secondly, logs without thoughts aren't indicative of much.
For the record I am currently #1, and I have had no significant problems with rain teams, so if you're going to use anything pertaining to the ladder as fuel to your argument, you're going to have to find some way to justify this first!
I said IF Rain is the biggest trend going on right now, we should be able to discuss it here. Honestly, I think it's just Flare discovering his new team idea of the week and telling us it's too good.
Besides, I really don't see any other kind of discussion flying around. I've seen a couple of Scyther and a few Fighting types, but there are a lot of things going on and not enough to say anything conclusive. Everyone is still using their tried and true UUs with a couple of NUs on the side. All NU teams are usually bad and get murdered on the spot. Nothing we haven't seen before.
@ uragg - I'm saying Rain is unpredictable because good teams use the standard Pokemon plus some off the wall sweeper or some odd rain starter. When facing rain you can assume Kabutops and Ludicolo are going to be there, (but not until Rain Dance is revealed), just the same as when facing stall you can assume Milotic, Registeel, Chansey/Clefable and Moltres/Arcanine will probably be there. However, unlike Stall, Rain has a numerous amount of sweepers to choose from that can sweep different Pokemon on different teams. Stall doesn't have very many other options besides the standards and still be as successful. Rain can forgo the standards save for Kabutops/Ludicolo and still sweep things. Rain is only limited in the amount of Pokemon with Swift Swim or Water-type Pokemon in general, which there is no shortage of.
SJCrew is right, if we're going to talk about banning any rain sweeper, it'd be Ludicolo. He's the only one that can safely get by Milotic who is otherwise a hard stop to the other rain sweepers.
And Thund, if you don't want to talk about rain, start talking about something else. I can go for something other than rain, but I don't know what else to talk about besides Milotic or Venusaur.
It's not just Milotic, it's Water types in general. Where most Rain sweepers would have trouble standing up to bulky Water types, Ludicolo takes them out effortlessly with STAB Grass. Grass is the only other thing that resists Water, and even on that level, you're facing a Surf -> Ice Beam or an outright OHKO. Anything that doesn't resist or is immune to Water can be 2HKOed easily, unless you happen to be running Chansey and Tangrowth on the same team.
Like I said before, I'm not seriously advocating a Ludicolo ban, but there is a noticeable difference between the number of things that check/counter him as opposed to the rest of the Rain sweepers. If we had to ban any individual Rain sweeper, Ludicolo should take top priority.
I said IF Rain is the biggest trend going on right now, we should be able to discuss it here. Honestly, I think it's just Flare discovering his new team idea of the week and telling us it's too good.
Besides, I really don't see any other kind of discussion flying around. I've seen a couple of Scyther and a few Fighting types, but there are a lot of things going on and not enough to say anything conclusive. Everyone is still using their tried and true UUs with a couple of NUs on the side. All NU teams are usually bad and get murdered on the spot. Nothing we haven't seen before.
Maybe there's no discussion because any post discussing something outside of rain would just be smushed into the middle with no recognition. I didn't say I have much to talk about, but give me a bit more and I'll find something. It's not that difficult. And I request the rain thread be locked because it's apparently not needed.
I think you misunderstood SJC's previous comment. You asked everybody to get to a rain thread and he was saying that Jabba said that he didn't find a topic about rain relevant so that's why the discussion is stuck here.
Goddamn it just use a Tangrowth/Chansey core if you're so worried about rain.
Rain is a style of play that forces BOTH PLAYERS to think, at least if the non-rain user is competent. If Rain is just going to mindlessly spam Surf, then I will mindlessly switch in Chansey. The rain user is going to have to think if he wants to win.
I guess the only difference is that the non-rain user has to play carefully right from the onset, whereas the Rain spammer is only forced to think after he sees that his sweepers CAN be walled, contrary to popular opinion.
There are a plethora of ways to beat rain, ranging from general to specific methods. Use Toxicroak. Venusaur WILL eliminate at least one rain sweeper, and possibly cripple another. Use Milotic. Use Tangrowth + Chansey. Use Taunt Mismagius. Use Encore Zam. Use Scarf Rotom. And so on.......
Haha a tangrowth/chansey core is so beyond terrible outside of facing rain.
And then you go ahead and listen three more threats as if they all overrun rain themselves. And I hope you're not suggesting to put more than one of Taunt Mismagius/Encore Zam/Rotom on one team unless you like to feed Spiritomb.
Please explain why Tangrowth/Chansey core is terrible?
Obviously, I didn't mean use them all at once. I was just listing a bunch of mons that can defend against rain. Have you ever tried using a Taunt Mismagius? It works so well in giving you some momentum back when they're trying to set up rain again. Suddenly, they're on the back foot.
