np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

[Gerard]

To avoid complex bans, I'd like whoever is capable of doing so to change the current suspect of Shell Smash+Baton Pass to individual suspects of Smeargle, Gorebyss, and Huntail.

I honestly thought that Smogon had enough uniformity to avoid silly bans like Shell Smash+Baton Pass.

I actually agree with this since SS+BP is the best set (or at least a pretty damn good one) for all three of those pokemons, just like Speed Boost Blaze was broken with his best set and banned completely (not only the SB version), this also helps getting Gorebyss, Smeargle and Huntail off RU (and even NU) where they actually are right now

Not saying they are broken, but if they are banned i really think ban the three broken pokes instead of a complicated ban

PS: Durant is great (altough ugly) but he is unreliable at best until a HC, an any good steel type/bulky water walls him, he stills a good Set-up sweeper with not really good defeses but nice defensive typing

 

[breh]

Gorebyss and Huntail are actually usable Swift Swim sweepers (not the greatest but w/e) and Smeargle has limitless options anyway. They have other aspects and banning them as a whole is stupid, at least IMO.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

To avoid complex bans, I'd like whoever is capable of doing so to change the current suspect of Shell Smash+Baton Pass to individual suspects of Smeargle, Gorebyss, and Huntail.

I honestly thought that Smogon had enough uniformity to avoid silly bans like Shell Smash+Baton Pass.

For what it's worth, I totally agree with you.

 

[kaonohiokala]

Gorebyss and Huntail are actually usable Swift Swim sweepers (not the greatest but w/e) and Smeargle has limitless options anyway. They have other aspects and banning them as a whole is stupid, at least IMO.

BL should be a banlist for Pokemon or Abilities, not Move+Move complex bans.

Just because Gorebyss, Huntail, and Smeargle's most broken sets are BL-worthy doesn't mean we create a special ban to have the Pokemon themselves avoid getting moved to BL.

Otherwise, we might as well create special bans to keep different Pokemon in their tiers as well. Speed Boost+Swords Dance, Sand Veil+Swords Dance, Choice Specs+Draco Meteor, etc.

 

[Avira]

Staraptor is seen on so many teams now. I think it will top usage in UU by a huge margin. It is unbelievably broken.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I think it might be time to discuss a quickban, if possible. Does anyone here think Staraptor is not broken? I know we had a few people last time, but hopefully they've had a chance to use/face it...because as of now, Staraptor is on almost every single offensive team.

 

[Downf4ll]

BL should be a banlist for Pokemon or Abilities, not Move+Move complex bans.

Just because Gorebyss, Huntail, and Smeargle's most broken sets are BL-worthy doesn't mean we create a special ban to have the Pokemon themselves avoid getting moved to BL.

Otherwise, we might as well create special bans to keep different Pokemon in their tiers as well. Speed Boost+Swords Dance, Sand Veil+Swords Dance, Choice Specs+Draco Meteor, etc.

QFT. Even if I don't think SpashPassing is broken, this post makes too much sense to ignore.

Also Flareblitz, I'm not sure that it should be quickbanned just yet. Give it another week or two. If no one comes up and says that Staraptor isn't broken (which is complete BS in my opinion) by that time period, I'll be inclined to agree with you. As it is though, it's just too early to make a decision like a quickban just yet.

 

[Mishra]

I think it might be time to discuss a quickban, if possible. Does anyone here think Staraptor is not broken? I know we had a few people last time, but hopefully they've had a chance to use/face it...because as of now, Staraptor is on almost every single offensive team.

Clearly Jrrrr believes it to be UU. (that's not meant to be a snipe, you were just one of the few who made it clear that was your opinion).

I don't think a quick ban is necessary. I feel like the metagame isn't broken, but that could be just me. I am running the 252/252/4 Sub/Roost set (Item=LO), and I can't even 2HKO slowbro, and I lose Double edge as a cover move.

The point being on the grounds of an quick ban, what would be the broken set the sets the ground? I ask this as more of a curiosity, not that I agree or disagree with a quick ban.

Edit: Btw, I am kind of in a rut as far as lattering goes. My last team lost its star (Kyugem, although I wasn't too surprised), and I really haven't made a good team in a while. Are there any groups for teambuilding, not made in RMT threads?

 

[TLK]

I see more Flygon than anything else, tbh.

Btw, have people forgotten that Victini is still good? I barely see them anymore, which is stupid.

 

[Forte.EXE]

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 132 HP | 212 Atk | 124 Def | 40 Spe
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn

Rapes so much in this meta that I'm surprised. Victini can't do anything beyond a Brick Break (doesn't even break the Subs), or the rare, rare Grass Knot (which would obviously KO), Staraptor can't do anything but cry as even Adamant Band Close Combat is only a 2HKO (54.5% - 64.6%), so if it uses Double-Edge or Brave Bird it's an easy Sub. Slowbro is 2HKOed by Megahorn 100% of the time (50.8% - 59.9%), and Rhyperior easily out-speeds. Scald is a OHKO (103.2% - 122.5%), so don't go switching into Scalds, obviously. Works well with Staraptor and Kingdra, since Staraptor can take a a weak Grass-type attack that would normally KO Rhyperior (something like Grass Knot or Giga Drain) and Kingdra absorbs Water-type attacks. EVs are pretty much copy and pasted from the Smogon analysis of Su(b)perior, but with less Speed since there's no point in out-speeding Clefable and Weezing when they're practically never seen anyway. Drop the Speed down to beat something like Quagsire and all those other slow Pokemon, threw the rest in Defense.

Also, seriously, ban Chansey. I can't even run a single Special Sweeper on my entire team because I don't want to give Chansey a single edge over it. Chansey has defenses out the ass and I'm still shocked that it avoided a supermajority.

I don't think a quick ban is necessary. I feel like the metagame isn't broken, but that could be just me. I am running the 252/252/4 Sub/Roost set (Item=LO), and I can't even 2HKO slowbro, and I lose Double edge as a cover move.

If you're not running Reckless on your SubRoost Staraptor, you should. Easily 2HKOs that Slowbro that you're having issues with, you Roost off damage from LO and Brave Bird. Only reason to even use Intimidate would be for an easier Sub, but why bother with that kind of shit when you can just 2HKO everything in your way?

 

[Forsety]

Quagsire honestly isn't very common in UU, whilst it serves as a vital pivotal setup sweeper killer in OU. Its nothing more than a liability in UU where everyone and their mother is effective at stall and love throwing out random grass attacks/leech seed/toxic/burn. Just go for max attack.

 

[Godsend]

I think it might be time to discuss a quickban, if possible. Does anyone here think Staraptor is not broken? I know we had a few people last time, but hopefully they've had a chance to use/face it...because as of now, Staraptor is on almost every single offensive team.

I don't think Staraptor is as broken as some people think it is, but it does need devoted checks and what not. Pretty much, it forces me to use a wall and at least one poke with priority to make sure it is handled. That's not as much because of "brokeness," but because of how common it is.


P.S. Yay for first post in almost a year!
lol

 

[Meru]

Staraptor isn't going to make it past this round. I can guarantee you the metagame shift towards him will only become more and more dramatic as the round progresses.

On a side note, I've barely seen Victini and hardly found him to be threatening anymore. Without Drought, he's just so lol.

 

[Oglemi]

Staraptor is pretty insane, but I don't think it's any more insane than Mew. So, comparatively speaking, if we're going to quickban raptor we'd have to think about quickbanning Mew while we're at it.

Honestly though, even though there are a couple of broken things this round, this metagame is actually really fun. So, I think we can hold out until the end of the round before we start banning stuff.

 

[sax king]

If we weren't going to quickban Kyurem and Drought, we're clearly not going to quickban Staraptor, especially because not everyone agrees that it's broken (like Jrrrr and me and a few others)

 

[ToF]

I see a lot of hyperbole in this thread. So much hyperbole related to Chansey. The only things that justify banning in the current UU metagame in my opinion are smash-pass and Staraptor. Staraptor 2HKO's everything in the metagame. You're like forced to carry something that can revenge it or you'll lose.

As for smash pass, or any baton pass in general, I've made it perfectly clear that it's a piece of shit strategy that not only doesn't have a base in strategy, but also because baton pass as a team-type has received such a boost this gen with Magic Mirror users that have access to the move as well as even better boosting moves than simply Calm Mind and Swords Dance.

 

[.I Wish You Well.]

Let's get this party started, i have yet to see any smashpass team through my experience of laddering, pretty strange. Let the rain begin..

 

[jamashawalker]

If we weren't going to quickban Kyurem and Drought, we're clearly not going to quickban Staraptor, especially because not everyone agrees that it's broken (like Jrrrr and me and a few others)

The difference between last round and this one is that the focus is taken off of drought and kyurem and victini and is now focused on staraptor...ppl are startin to realize the power staraptor has. It's commonly seen and does its job really well...also it was the first round, so many different pokes to use, it was kind of unpredictable what would happen

Also no offensive to you, Jrrr, nor anyone that doesnt that disagrees about staraptor being broken, other than the long debate in the last megathread, there hasnt been much anti-ban staraptor around here lately...everyone so far has been on the side of how staraptor needs to go, and so far early on this stage the metagame has drastically shifted towards its use and as Meru stated it will get more dramatic as the round progresses

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Clearly Jrrrr believes it to be UU. (that's not meant to be a snipe, you were just one of the few who made it clear that was your opinion).

No worries. I haven't gotten a chance to play much this round so I can't say much one way or the other. To clarify what my opinion was (because a bunch of people are talking about it, how flattering!), I'll just paste my vote sentences:

"Staraptor: Do Not Ban. With a high base Atk, a damage boosting ability, a small but perfect movepool and a Speed stat good enough to abuse a Choice Band, I would say that Staraptor is broken on paper. But after playing against it, I believe this isn't the case. It's Stealth Rock weakness and its two best moves take massive amounts of HP away from it every time it attempts to attack. This also means that it's nearly impossible to switch in until after something on your own team is KOd because it has to save every one of its precious Hit Points. At best, you're getting 3 or 4 attacks off per match with Staraptor before it kills itself. It is a glass cannon, strong but not easy enough to use to warrant a ban in my book. "

Keep in mind that was last round, where Sun teams were faster than both of Staraptor's dangerous sets (CB and SubRoostLO), and scarf Kyurem was on all of my teams.

Other general things I wanna say:

- Quickbans shouldn't happen. Ever. The metagame is 2 days old, there's no possible way you've thought about the issue enough to determine if something is broken.

- Staraptor is probably used a lot because a lot of people are posting about it in this thread. That's the whole point of the suspect test, to focus people's attention on certain pokemon. Of course sometimes, like in this case, it has the opposite effect of people panicking and saying "omg its everywhere! ban it!"

- "Shell Smash + Baton Pass" as a complex ban is a terrible idea. First of all, all three users of this combination are RU (aka NU aka LU). They're pretty much a non-factor in the metagame. Instead of making absurd complex bans to nerf broken things, we should just ban the broken things. Like how we banned Drought instead of Drought + Chlorophyll or Drought + CBVictini.

 

[Mishra]

I just played about 10 game, and all but 2 of those teams ran staraptor. Chansey is still the same bitch she ever was, and I am sad she is still here.

To those who say smashpass is not broken because its users are NU. The strategy is ridiculous as one of the ways to break the chain (phazing) no longer works on espeon (this is a nonissue in lower tiers as aside from maybe Xatu (sniker) there are no magic mirror sweepers.

I think I should build baton pass, just to prove a point. See you on the ladders boys.

Staraptor is also ridiculous, that's why theres a lot on the ladder.

 

[breh]

you don't use whirlwind, you just run a lot of priority. Once you kill the abuser, the team tends to fall apart.

 

[Gerard]

Espeon is OU, so you have to use Xatu (which breaks the chain)

 

[Forte.EXE]

you don't use whirlwind, you just run a lot of priority. Once you kill the abuser, the team tends to fall apart.

This man speaks the truth. I run Technician Hitmontop and Ambipom for double Fake Out and priority. So long as you stall out Screens (isn't that hard when you really think about it) then it's far, far easier to take down Gorebyss/Smeargle/Huntail.

Or you could run something like Haze Milotic or Roar Empoleon. Both of those lose to Smeargle though, since it just Spores your face.

Espeon is OU, so you have to use Xatu (which breaks the chain)

Espeon isn't OU, tier-wise. It's OU stat-wise. Nothing is coming down from OU or moving up to OU (bar a ban, which would move it to BL before OU) for another two months. It's a three-month period and, after that, then the usage stats are calculated and it's decided where the Pokemon is going to go.

 

[.I Wish You Well.]

Anyone know quick tips on how to beat smashpassing? I'm doing well against it, but i don't have a clear strategy against it at the start of the match..

 

[Mishra]

Roar/WW doesn't work in UU when the receiver has magic mirror (Espeon)

Also, I have to run haze or lose? And lets be honest: Ambipom is the only decent user of Fake-out and its orbed. Didn't moody get banned, despite clear smog being a "great answer"? Haze is just about as great of an answer. The two best hazers (unless I am missing one) are Milotic and Crobat, and to a lesser extent, Weezing. Milotic is probably by far the best, which means if I don't carry one, I lose.

Dragon tail doesn't even cut it as with reflect up, d-tail won't break gorby's sub (with white herb in tact). I guess my point was espeon made smash pash in UU over the top. Maybe if espeon does get moved up (which I disagree with, as I feel the defeats the purpose of suspect testing in UU), maybe smash pass will be managable? Maybe?