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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

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Um, to ALL of you out there, Espeon is OU. ._.

And for SmashPass, see my sig. Honestly, I dunno if SP is crazy enough to be banned, seeing as so few people use the 2 Pokemon that are central to this strategy(Smeargle and Gorebyss).
 
I don't get why everyone's making such a big deal out of Espeon. It's not strong or good enough to abuse +2 SpAtk and +2 Speed. If you say "well it can just BP to something else after!" then you're making an entire Baton Pass team and I don't see how that's an argument for Shell Smash being broken.

I'd rather use NP RP BP Mew to set something up than something with Shell Smash. At least it can Taunt and doesn't have to lower its defenses.
 
Ok, so I've played with the Subperior mentioned on the previous page. Fucking amazing. I just used a 252/252 spread but it still kicks ass. Subs greater than 101 and the ability to laugh at staraptor is fantastic.
 
Asiatic said:
Anyone know quick tips on how to beat smashpassing? I'm doing well against it, but i don't have a clear strategy against it at the start of the match..
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If you're running offense, make heavy use of Substitute, Taunt, Trick, and choice items. Unlike standard bp teams, shell smash teams usually don't boost defense, so the key is to survive a boosted hit from a fast sweeper and then retaliate for the KO. Getting a powerful sweeper with good coverage behind a substitute is usually good enough to wreck the strategy. Another thing is that the standard smashpassers are kinda slow - Gorebyss still gets outsped and ohko'd by some very good scarfers (scarf rotom, scarf celebi), and smeargle is vulnerable to priority. The only times I've lost to smashpass are when I misplay and let espeon get screens up without doing anything productive myself.

I don't play stall, but I hear haze milotic does decent if you're into that sort of thing.
 
Okay, I've had a change of heart after thinking about it logically. If SmashPass is found to be broken, then it should be the Pokemon who can use it that are banned (Gorebyss and Huntail). It's kind of like how Mew was banned last gen, not the combo of RP+SD/NP+BP. Personally, I don't think Smeargle should be banned, since he's a frail piece of shit who dies almost immediately to anything, even if you give it screens support. I mean, what's the difference between SmashPass Smeargle to something like BellyPass Smeargle? They're both pretty crappy, if you ask me. If you want to go ahead and use SmashPass Smeargle, go ahead, just don't ragequit when it gets completely annihilated.
 
TM13IceBeam said:
And for SmashPass, see my sig. Honestly, I dunno if SP is crazy enough to be banned, seeing as so few people use the 2 Pokemon that are central to this strategy(Smeargle and Gorebyss).
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wobb wasn't used much last gen yet was still banned more or less on principle. usage doesn't mean everything or at times anything at all.
 
shrang said:
Okay, I've had a change of heart after thinking about it logically. If SmashPass is found to be broken, then it should be the Pokemon who can use it that are banned (Gorebyss and Huntail). It's kind of like how Mew was banned last gen, not the combo of RP+SD/NP+BP. Personally, I don't think Smeargle should be banned, since he's a frail piece of shit who dies almost immediately to anything, even if you give it screens support. I mean, what's the difference between SmashPass Smeargle to something like BellyPass Smeargle? They're both pretty crappy, if you ask me. If you want to go ahead and use SmashPass Smeargle, go ahead, just don't ragequit when it gets completely annihilated.
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If Gorebyss and Huntail were to be banned for Smash Pass, why not Smeargle? That seems like a double standard.
 
Asiatic said:
Anyone know quick tips on how to beat smashpassing? I'm doing well against it, but i don't have a clear strategy against it at the start of the match..
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Taunt is the most obvious, however with the 3 turn limit nerf it can be a problem finding something to do within that time. But it is the most straightforward but has the problem that Huntail and Gorebyss are by no means weak attackers themselves...

Trick Room works too as you get 4 turns to attempt to nuke them, but its not really reliable when Mew does the same thing essentially but can Taunt too and it makes you open to Spore from Smeargle.

Power Swap is one option as it gives you their offensive boosts. This especially works brilliantly if you can catch an Memento so you end up with +2 atk/s.atk while the BP'er ends up with -2 atk/s.atk. Biggest advantage is the fact even if they're behind a sub Power Swap completely bypasses it.

Only clear disadvantage with this is getting taunted and the limited choice of Power Swap users. Your best options are Exeggutor, Tangrowth, Altaria, Shiftry since they can lower their own offenses giving you a chance of passing a -4 s.atk making it not so much a gimmick.

Scarfers are not reliable since Smashpassers can just as easily hide behind a sub but in an emergency work if you can catch Huntail/Gorebyss open due to not being too fast. Trickscarf works brilliantly though as long you don't get subbed on and its kinda predictable too.

Another option is Dragon Tail but breaking subs from behind a Reflect is easier said then done. Priority has the same problem again.
 
So I think we've established gerard hasn't ever played uu so far.

Anyways defensive rhyperior is a boss and so is Raikou. I can see that this metagame is shifted towards countering staraptor though lol.
 
If you guys would rather have the Passers banned than the combination of the moves, nominate them next round and try to convince the voters to ban them instead of the moves. I'm not stepping in unless something is insanely idiotic (i.e. banning eviolite + chansey or something of the sort). Take note there is precedent for banning move combinations from gsc with sleep + perishtrapping. It's a while back but still it shows that if a combination of moves is broken on everything that has it, there's no problem banning the combo rather than the mons.
 
If Gorebyss and Huntail were to be banned for Smash Pass, why not Smeargle? That seems like a double standard.
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Same reason we'd say Garchomp should be banned but not Cacturne. Smeargle is limited to support moves and Baton Pass because its offenses are nonexistent even after a Shell Smash. The other two have the option of actually trying to kill stuff if it's not the right time to Baton Pass.
 
To be honest, I will happily say right now that I was a bit too quick to call Victini broken. It's still really good, but without Drought it's not the unstoppable beast it was. I think it's alright actually. Nowhere near as bad as Kyurem was or Staraptor is.
 
jrrrrrrr said:
I don't get why everyone's making such a big deal out of Espeon. It's not strong or good enough to abuse +2 SpAtk and +2 Speed. If you say "well it can just BP to something else after!" then you're making an entire Baton Pass team and I don't see how that's an argument for Shell Smash being broken.
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Oh, I guess having a base 130 sp. atk with a 140 base stab (how much stored power gets to when having 1 shell smash) attack isn't strong enough for baton passing, immune to any status effect, and unable to be phazed out, save for d-tail *rolls eyes*. Espeon is an AMAZING Recipient.

The other issue is the team most commonly leads with Azelf. At base 115 speed, there are maybe two competitive pokes that can outspeed and not get taunted while Azelf sets screens (Ambipom ties, but ninja bug outspeeds, too bad no one uses it). MH users are very limited since the genies and Whimsiscott are both OU, which leaves Murkrow, Conttonnee, and Mistrevious (was it's dream world released yet)?


I guess that's my biggest issue with it here in UU: One of the best recipients in UU for smashpass is immune to arguably best way to stop BP (phazing). I WILL the team on the ladders until it dominates (The user I learned this from was ironically named, BAN SMASHPASS, and a couple others but that name stood out).
 
Mishra said:
Oh, I guess having a base 130 sp. atk with a 140 base stab
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When I saw that I immediately thought of Kyurem for some reason lol.

Ambipom can Fake Out and then Double Hit/U-Turn, or Taunt if you feel ballsy. I dunno who you are referring to by ninja bug(Accelgor or Ninjask?) but either way both can't do much, Ninjask does threaten to KO with a +2 X-Scissor but I think that's it.

Also, Misdreavus doesn't have Prankster.
 
shrang said:
Okay, I've had a change of heart after thinking about it logically. If SmashPass is found to be broken, then it should be the Pokemon who can use it that are banned (Gorebyss and Huntail). It's kind of like how Mew was banned last gen, not the combo of RP+SD/NP+BP. Personally, I don't think Smeargle should be banned, since he's a frail piece of shit who dies almost immediately to anything, even if you give it screens support. I mean, what's the difference between SmashPass Smeargle to something like BellyPass Smeargle? They're both pretty crappy, if you ask me. If you want to go ahead and use SmashPass Smeargle, go ahead, just don't ragequit when it gets completely annihilated.
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I agree completely, except with the smeargle part. With screens and max hp, he always took at least one neutral non boosted STAB. He could even survive LO hitmontop's Fake Out and Mach Punch combo, sleep it, shell smash, and baton pass. Combine that with access to taunt and a white herb, and he was hands down the best smash passer on my team.
 
TM13IceBeam said:
When I saw that I immediately thought of Kyurem for some reason lol.
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Fair enough, lol. With two shell smashed, now its a base 280 atk (of course, that would require.

Ambipom can Fake Out and then Double Hit/U-Turn, or Taunt if you feel ballsy. I dunno who you are referring to by ninja bug(Accelgor or Ninjask?) but either way both can't do much, Ninjask does threaten to KO with a +2 X-Scissor but I think that's it.
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Ambipom is not going to land a hit after shell smash, besides fake-out. Your either going to have to sac ambipom, or sac something else.

Also, Misdreavus doesn't have Prankster.
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That was kind of my point. At base 115 speed, azelf is one of, if not, the fasted taunter in the game, tied with Ambipom. And the only pokes that could do the job faster with MH (prankster) in UU are Contonnee, Sableye (if it is released), and Murkrow. I hate all 3, the first for being unable to touch grass type, the middle for being fragile as fuck, and the latter, for more or less the same thing, even with evolite, but now add a SR weakness.

So, it is infinitly easy to set up screens, Smashpass to espeon, and coast, since I can't be phazed out. I even now carry a silver bullet for Milotic, so the only poke that scared my team is staraptor, if I can't win the speed tie (may even switch mine to a scarf, just to ensure I can).
 
capefeather said:
Same reason we'd say Garchomp should be banned but not Cacturne. Smeargle is limited to support moves and Baton Pass because its offenses are nonexistent even after a Shell Smash. The other two have the option of actually trying to kill stuff if it's not the right time to Baton Pass.
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shrang argued that Gorebyss and Huntail should be banned because of Shell Pass. Shell Pass involves successfully sending the drastic offensive boosts to an appropriate recipient. Whether or not Smeargle can sweep with the boost is irrelevant, since people are arguing the ease in passing +6 boosts to any sweeping Pokemon. If we want to ban Pokemon that utilizes Shell Pass, then apparently Smeargle would be banned.

Now if we want to ban Shell Smash + Baton Pass combination, that's a whole different story. IMO, it is much more simpler, too, dealing directly with the problem.
 
Personally, I don't see Smashpass as being too overpowering, but even if it was, enough of the complex ban BS. Take a Pokemon as it is with all the bells and whistles attached. If something that Pokemon can do is considered broken, ban the Pokemon. Don't attempt to nerf it just because you have a strange fetish for pink eels clad in seashell bikinis. I don't see why anything else is necessary. Dance around the truth all you want, but I see it as being no different than taking a broken offensive threat and banning the use of its two most powerful attacking options on the same set.
 
Forgot to mention but awesome Foreigner reference with the thread title. I think UU is probably fine atm but Starptor needs to have a close eye kept on it, it may be broken right now and if not could easily become so in the furture.
 
Mishra said:
Roar/WW doesn't work in UU when the receiver has magic mirror (Espeon)

Also, I have to run haze or lose? And lets be honest: Ambipom is the only decent user of Fake-out and its orbed. Didn't moody get banned, despite clear smog being a "great answer"? Haze is just about as great of an answer. The two best hazers (unless I am missing one) are Milotic and Crobat, and to a lesser extent, Weezing. Milotic is probably by far the best, which means if I don't carry one, I lose.

Dragon tail doesn't even cut it as with reflect up, d-tail won't break gorby's sub (with white herb in tact). I guess my point was espeon made smash pash in UU over the top. Maybe if espeon does get moved up (which I disagree with, as I feel the defeats the purpose of suspect testing in UU), maybe smash pass will be managable? Maybe?
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why do you even think that smashpass is a broken strategy when its users didn't even hit uu?isn't this a little bit contradictive?
 
alexwolf said:
why do you even think that smashpass is a broken strategy when its users didn't even hit uu?isn't this a little bit contradictive?
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I agree. I can understand a broken Pokemon not getting in the top 10 on usage or whatever, but SURELY it would actually make it into the tier, if it's actually broken!! Everybody is playing to win, so why aren't people using Smashpass?

And if those Pokemon are getting so little usage, do we truly know enough about them to be banning them?
 
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