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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
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Why do people keep mentioning Mamoswine on hail teams...?
Is it just me or am I the only one who has like never seen a Mamoswine on a hail team...?
Yep, Froslass is an absolute terror. I don't what it feels like to be on the receiving side so I can only speculate, but it's probably one of the most annoying things to face in the metagame at the moment. Basically, I've been using Substitute / Blizzard / Shadow Ball / Pain Split @ LO, and even with games which I should have lost, I've brought out Froslass and she's won the game because she's just so hax. Add two or three more Blizzard spammers onto your team and you'll find it hard to keep taking those Blizzards to the face.
I don't know about you guys, but somehow my Hitmontop is usually able to 2HKO Froslass with Bullet Punch...
The problem is, if Hitmontop is coming into Froslass, Froslass is doing one of four highly annoying things. 1. Setting up Spikes. Froslass switches out on your Bullet Punch and now you've got a layer of Spikes up on you. 2. It uses Thunder Wave. Not as annoying, but Parahax can be a bitch. 3. It sets up a Substitute. Free Blizzard or Spikes set-up. 4. It uses Blizzard. You take the hit and Froslass flees as they switch to Slowbro/Nidoqueen/the usual Hail Fighting check.
252 SpA Timid Blizzard vs. 252 HP/0 SpD TechTop: 42.8% - 50.7%
Hail + any Spikes that Froslass has already set up will be the death of you, not to mention Life Orb.
That requires running Technitop though and generally speaking IntimidateTop is the standard now as it gives it so much more survivability which is needed for a spinner. With that said Intimidate versions are only ever running Sucker Punch or Stone Edge for coverage as the other slot is reserved for Toxic otherwise they'll get walled by bulky psychics/ghosts.
Honestly the only safe switch in to a Froslass in the whole of UU I think would be Cryogonal who in normal scenarios is more a liability than a help even if it can recover and spin and fact is its still gonna get parahaxed but least it can get rid of the spikes once Lass is gone, provided its not packing destiny bond.
Usually, the scenario is: Hitmontop comes in to spin. I see Froslass on opponent's team. I Bullet Punch on the switch, then I either Bullet Punch or spin.
Speaking from my experience, it is. It beats all defensive boosters like it's supposed to, puts a timer on any sweeper that switches in, walls a lot of Fighting-types and beats them with Psychic, and is a guaranteed win even if you can't break your opponent's last Pokemon. I can't see how that's impractical even on a bad day.
The standard Hitmontop is now 252 HP / 252 Def Impish, with Intimidate, and for a good reason. Technitop is somewhat underwhelming in UU, as most Ghosts except Froslass have Will-O-Wisp, and thus Sucker Punch can be played around. I run the standard defensive Hitmontop with Foresight / Rapid Spin / CC / Sucker Punch. Foresight is useful to catch Froslass and friends on the switch-in, and then smash them with CC or spin away hazards. That being said, I believe Froslass should still be banned as one miss, or several, can turn around the game very quickly. Though the other day, I missed 8 times in a row against Snow Cloak Mamoswine... >.>
I don't think that Froslass or individual abusers are the issue, I think that Hail is the most powerful (and possibly broken, I we have to see it in a chansey-less metagame) element. Blizzspam and Hailstall are probably the hardest things to beat on the ladder at the moment. With SubSplit Rotom-F, Nidoking, Froslass etc. around, Blizzspam is crazy good, and Froslass is really amazing/annoying (depends whether you're using hail), since eve if you have a clear team advantage, Froslass can turn a game around really quickly. On the other hand, Hailstall is great too, with almost guaranteed 1/16 off the opponent every turn and great hail abusers like Walrein (or froslass lol).
Just curious, what kind of teams are you guys using such that BlizzSpam is broken? In my experience, getting stealth rock up and having a powerful scarfer faster than Rotom-F shuts down nearly the entire team. Granted, Snow Cloak misses are fucked up, but besides that I don't recall ever having trouble with pure BlizzSpam teams. Balanced hail teams (with a defensive core, froslass for spikes, etc) are far more trouble, but getting rid of Froslass would possibly fix that.
I agree, I've never have had much trouble with BlizzSpam... It is much easier to stop than a pure defensive hail team with strong cores and Pokemon such as Nidoqueen/Hitmontop/defensive Arcanine/Slowbro/Milotic.
Blizzspam teams are easily beaten by something like Choice Scarf Victini or Heracross. Blizzspam also has much more problems with stuff like RestTalk users (especially Milotic, Snorlax, and Suicune), the only thing that can hit any of them is Abomasnow or something like a random Thunderbolt on Froslass.
I think that when people mention "BlizzSpam" the refer to general hail, since that's what hail boils down to, defensive or not. And yes, it is insanely hard to combat, no matter the team you're using. Scarf Victini/Heracross get worn down by Hail and hazards, and have defensive mons like Slowbro/Nidoqueen respectively to stop them 90% of the time. Hazards are, of course, essentially a given due to Froslass, and the number of time these scarfers are required to switch in is pretty alarming, and really, they die after like 2-3 switches overall.
Random ramblings, I guess. If you didn't get the picture: I don't like Hail.
Random ramblings, I guess. If you didn't get the picture: I don't like Hail.
Just saying, I personally don't think BlizzSpam is broken, it's just that I'm disturbed at how easily and mindlessly I can just spam it and win like >70-80% of games.
Choice Scarf Victini gets revenged by Dugtrio after you use V-create, and I use Gastrodon for Rotom-H (Who can also spam Blizzard).
Choice Scarf Victini gets revenged by Dugtrio after you use V-create, and I use Gastrodon for Rotom-H (Who can also spam Blizzard).
Something that may be broken: An entire team of Shed Skin users. Super frustrating to go up against, especially if your team is somewhat stallish.
^^^^^ Exactly what I'm talking about. There's almost no way to beat a team like that without knowing that you'll face them in advance.
NO. i got the perfect counter for a shed skin team.
jumpluff anyone?
jumpluff
@leftover
bold 252 hp 4 defense 252 speed
worry seed
toxic
stun spore
sleep powder.
with worry seed, you can negate shed skin and status them. BRILLIANT
edit: worry seeding + insomnia + sleep powder is an absolute MUST. since its not like insomnia blocks sleep or watever.
jumpluff anyone?
jumpluff
@leftover
bold 252 hp 4 defense 252 speed
worry seed
toxic
stun spore
sleep powder.
with worry seed, you can negate shed skin and status them. BRILLIANT
edit: worry seeding + insomnia + sleep powder is an absolute MUST. since its not like insomnia blocks sleep or watever.
i think one of the main issues with playing against hail of any kind comes down to how easy it is to wear down hail's 'counters' with multiple kinds of residual damage. a lot of them are weak to sr, some spikes as well, and the constant hail damage is always annoying. on top of that, hail takes away a large portion of the tier's ability to recover reliably (morning sun arcanine for example). furthermore, idk if it's just me, but i've found it terribly hard to spin against hail teams to get rid of said hazards. donphan, arguably one of the best overall utility spinners, can't do shit in the face of almost every mon on a hail team and is too slow to get a spin off before it dies. hitmontop is also terribly slow and because it's usually focused on soaking up physical hits, it hates taking even some of the weakest blizzards, which often puts it in the same boat as donphan. claydol obviously isn't going to be doing shit due to it's ground typing, just like donphan. the last common / viable spinner left is blastoise, who pretty much has to run a set of rest/ sleep talk/ rapid spin/ scald to even stand a chance against most hail teams and then it has to get past froslass who'll just set up 3 layers of spikes in your face while dodging ever fucking scald you throw at it from behind a sub (dramatization, but it's still an annoying little bitch).
edit: and wow, some of you people really need to learn how to distinguish a serious post from obvious sarcasm. all of those shed skin mons are shitty and will get destroyed by any team that doesn't solely rely on status to beat the opponent.
edit: and wow, some of you people really need to learn how to distinguish a serious post from obvious sarcasm. all of those shed skin mons are shitty and will get destroyed by any team that doesn't solely rely on status to beat the opponent.
I haven't fought that much hail, so I don't know how well it is, but to change the subject slightly:
Banded Vicini is amazing. Jolly is able to 2HKO both donphan and evolite gligar with ease. Same strategy as scarf though, spam u-turn until flashfire pokes are gone, then spam v-create. It is sick how much power you add with a band. Here are some calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Gligar:
51.2% - 60.48% without rocks
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 252 HP/252 Def Donphan:
60.94% - 71.88% without rocks.
252 -1 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 252 HP/252 Def Hitmontop:
60.2% - 71.05% without rocks (although victini has to be wary of sucker punch)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 252 HP/80 Def Eviolite Dusclops:
59.15% - 69.72% with rocks.
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 160 HP/0 Def Rhyperior:
32.36% - 38.2% with rocks (and this is a poke with a 130 defense stat AND resists V-create).
Just somethings to think about.
Banded Vicini is amazing. Jolly is able to 2HKO both donphan and evolite gligar with ease. Same strategy as scarf though, spam u-turn until flashfire pokes are gone, then spam v-create. It is sick how much power you add with a band. Here are some calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Gligar:
51.2% - 60.48% without rocks
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 252 HP/252 Def Donphan:
60.94% - 71.88% without rocks.
252 -1 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 252 HP/252 Def Hitmontop:
60.2% - 71.05% without rocks (although victini has to be wary of sucker punch)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 252 HP/80 Def Eviolite Dusclops:
59.15% - 69.72% with rocks.
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs 160 HP/0 Def Rhyperior:
32.36% - 38.2% with rocks (and this is a poke with a 130 defense stat AND resists V-create).
Just somethings to think about.
Problem is after your first v create you get ohkod by something right away. Also the stallbreaker set is much better vs most teams.
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