np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched

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Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
I'm probably one of the least ban-happy folks around, but I think that it's time these two go away. Deoxys-D is the quintessential hazards stacker, as his perfect base stats and access to Taunt and Thunder Wave allow him to shut down Pokes that try to set up on him, as well as slower Defoggers. Additionally, he is one of the few Pokes that actually benefits from a Psychic typing because the low base power of Bug, Dark, and Ghost attacks make it nearly impossible to OHKO him, making a hazard or two all but guaranteed. At that point, offensive sweepers can often prevent the opponent from successfully removing hazards.

Deoxys-S is a weaker hazards setter, but can run several other effective sets, making him more flexible than D. However, unlike some people, who actually use "versatile" as a snarl word, I don't really consider versatility itself to be a bad thing; in my opinion, the most enjoyable and skillful metagames in Pokemon had some of the most unpredictable Pokes (e.g. DPP prior to the LatiMence ban). The main problem that this metagame has is that it is way too standardized, with there being very little variation between sets on each Pokemon. That being said, Deoxys-S should still be banned because his Dual Screens set is too potent of an instigator for BP and HO teams.
 
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Ok, I may get a bit heated when talking about this, so excuse me and do know that I have no intent to be hostile towards any of you in the thread.

Throwin' it back to debate with the flow lol

Contention 1 Deo-S:

-This is the one that from what I understand, is the most 'broken'. Well, in my opinion, it's not broken - it's far from it.
2
-Deo-S is susceptible to literally all priority (which is one reason that Mega Zam was moved to UU - but that conversation is for another thread on another day).

-Many make the argument of versatility being an issue on Deo-S. However, it's fairy obvious, early in the match, which set it is. Plus, you can easily counter lead with pretty much any play style barring stall (HO = BD Azu, Balanced = Scarfer to hit hard b4 screens/hazards). Stall has a bad matchup, but let's be real, pretty much every mon has a good advantage against a certain play style. Just like how Azumarill has a good matchup vs most Balanced, and a combo of generic stall mons (VenuTran) are capable of locking up HO.

-If the argument about 'team support' is made, then I agree - it does provide good Team Support. However, if you mean Hazards/Screens, then I think this point shouldn't be weighed as heavily as others. Defog, which has taken a majority of the meta by storm, can remove all of these in one swift motion. Additionally, if you want to make the arg that this supports the revitalization of BP, then the solution is simple: bring in your setup mon turn 1 as the opponent sets up a screen to cover your best attack. Then use your set up move. Subsequently, they will either have to taunt to stop set up or opt for their second screen - that gives you an opportunity to wreck shop from there.

-Ok I think I've covered most of the args on the Deo-S ban so here's a summary of my stuff: Deo-S is good, and is in the top 10% of OU w/o a doubt. By no means am I saying that it sucks. However, I don't think it is great because of ability to check Team Support, Defog, Priority, Stat Drops w/ powerful moves (which can be manipulated thru predictions)


Contention 2: Deo-D

-Hazard Stacking, the primary arg against Deo-D, is a valid argument. However, Defog solves this. I guarantee many will respond w/ "but bisharp", however, after the peak of DeoSharp, many teams pack ways to beat it. Plus, you can lead w/ an offensive mon, smack it w/ a great hit, and then proceed to limit hazards w/ other means of offense.

-Team Support - cross apply all team support args to here, all of them apply.

-Offensive pressure - Deo-D provides 0 offensive pressure. Only support and hazards. So just hit it turn 1 to limit hazards, or stack them yourself.

-Ok that seems like most args being made, so here is my opinion: don't ban this thing. It's good, but its not Uber worthy. Sure, it's got great bulk and a great support move pool, but everyone knows what to expect on these things. You can counter with a pep of offense turn 1.

I know I'm in the minority here and am wondering if I should even get reqs. I guess I will bc it will make me better, but its honestly pointless at this stage of the game.

Catch ya on the flip flop
 
Finally! I am so fucking tired of seeing Deoxys HO teams everywhere. I'm going to hop on the BANdwagon here and say that both of these need to go.

First off Deoxys-D. It was worth giving it a shot in OU to see if Defog would make it less broken, but that hasn't been the case. It has Taunt to block slower Defog attempts and its partners in crime Bisharp and Defiant Thundurus make it difficult to remove those hazards without getting wrecked. It also has a lot of options with that fourth slot to fuck things over with including the buffed Knock Off which it didn't have last gen.

I was undecided about Deoxys-S last time, but I think it needs to go this time. Mega Lucario and Genesect kind of covered up how good Deoxys-S is partially because they were both pretty good checks to it and it was a case of broken checking broken. It has become much more of a menace with them gone. It isn't much worse than Deoxys-D as a hazard setter, but it can also blast you with Psycho Boost when you are expecting hazards. Deoxys-S also can take advantage of Knock Off to beat Psychic types and full health Chansey which it couldn't do very well last gen. Deoxys-S is very difficult to wall with the combination of Psycho Boost, Superpower, and Knock Off and its speed makes offensive sets a nightmare for both offensive and defensive teams to face.

Every Deoxys form has been sent to Ubers in every generation they have existed in for a reason. The Knock Off buff and the ability to self "spinblock" by Taunting the more common Defog makes them arguably better than ever. Let's send them back to Ubers for the fourth consecutive time.
 

Srn

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to be fairly honest, i haven't used either of them extensively (at all) but I can easily say that deo-d is a pain in the ass to deal with. I'd personally ban both, but even though deo-d is better at setting hazards, i'd lean toward deo-s being more dangerous overall due to its versatility:
Deo-s runs roughly 3 sets
Dual screens
Hazards
Offensive

Or maybe a combination of the latter two, you can easily stuff rocks into offensive and not mind to loss of coverage too much.

Dual screens- Again, I've almost never even used deo-s, but the one time i faced this thing it was retarded. It had decent bulk to set screens, and it even did it twice during the match, and my team was quite offensive. Between trying to defog the screens, stopping the opponent from boosting, and trying to get my own momentum back, this set was probably the scariest to face. It puts you on the defensive turn 1, and since the usual set is taunt/screens/rocks, you're not setting up either. Not often used, but this set is a monster to face.

Hazards- Not that effective imo. Even deo-d can carry superpower, deo-d just does this better overall. On average, opponents who used deo-d got up more hazards against me than those who used hazards lead deo-s. So this set really isn't too scary imo, its just slightly inferior and is still effective. I say this because if for some reason we only ban deo-d, then deo-s will be RIGHT there to replace it, so we need to ban both or neither for anything to really change.

Deo-s, due to being more versatile, isn't always found on teams, but Deo-d is on a LOT of HO teams, and thus deo-s being banned doesnt' change too much imo. In theory, ofc getting this gigantic threat off your back is a huge relief, but its not even that common on the ladder to start with (atleast in my experience) so I think the absence of deo-d will make a bigger difference.

Offensive- yeah this is probably the second best set. Hits pretty hard despite 95 base offenses and it has quite a few moves to play with, making it very tough to switch into safely. This guy can wrap up the remaining 2 or 3 mons on his own sometimes when the situation arises, and being able to revenge threats like char-x (psycho boost does a lot to offensive, not as much to bulky), Mega Tar, Mega Gyara (superpower) and a few others is really cool.
Unfortunately, sweepers with actual priority like azu, dnite, lucario, etc gotta be checked some other way, and that's where deo-s sorta falls apart. Deo-s lacks the bulk or priority to combat powerful priority users, and while it may have espeed, we're working with an 80 base power move, unSTAB, off of 95 base attack. It's not even worth it.

So yeah deo-d is the best at what it does albeit pretty predictable, and deo-s is versatile af while dual screens is scary as hell. Ban both pls k thx bai
 
SMOGON U JUST MADE ME LADDER FOR BATON (never gonna give u up, never gonna let u down) PASS ;_;
Ahh well, gotta ladder again and fight for Deo-S to be saved. This thing isn't broken. It's just damn good at it's job. Aegislash should be on the chopping block before Deo-S. Ughh 2700 COIL The Sequel...here I come. Deo-S checks many of the DDers that just annihilate everything after a single dance. He also checks scarfchomp, scarfdrill, scarftar, gengar and basically everything sans Terrakion that makes Mega Pinsir and Zard-Y's lives hell, He's a godsend. I swear, you guys should really think if you want Deo-S banned. He was broken as hell last gen, but he's much more manageable this gen and really keeps the megas and thundurus in line. I'll re-write this when I'm done with work.
 
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BenTheDemon

Banned deucer.
I'm actually quite the opposite of what I've been reading.
I think Deoxys-S is the one that's clearly broken while Deoxys-D is more borderline.
Deoxys-S is extremely versatile and does its jobs very well. It's a reliable hazard setter since it's nearly impossible to Taunt and can use Taunt itself.
It can also run an Offensive set with Life Orb or Sash. Since it's almost always a lead, it's Sash is rather reliable, but Life Orb boosts its power to a decent level, though its offensive power comes from its high Base Power moves, most prominently STAB Psycho Boost and Super Power. Predicting the wrong set can easily put you at a severe disadvantage.
This thing definitely deserves the boot. It's just too versatile to reliably stop, and its too fast to prevent some form of punishment.

As far as Deoxys-D, it's more simple. It's bulky. REALLY bulky. It can also be Taunt bait given its mediocre Speed, but it can carry Magic Coat to patch up that weakness. As others have said, its bulk allows it to almost guarantee at least two hazards. It also has reliable instant recovery in Recover, forcing any Pokemon that cannot 2HKO it out, and not many Pokemon can boast that ability.
Deoxys-D's only real problem is 4MSS. It can run the four annoying moves I have mentioned (Rocks and Spikes are my hazards), but then it would lack Seismic Toss, which is its only offensive presence. So you either have to forgo an attacking option, a hazard, a Taunt counter, or Recovery.
The best set is arguably:
-1 Hazard (Spikes or Rocks)
-Magic Coat
-Recover
-Seismic Toss
Though not impossible, this set is rather hard to break and a team absolutely REQUIRES a reliable way to 2HKO Deoxys-S, which makes it limit teambuilding and therefore should be banned.
 
Deoxys-D should probably be banned but doesn't taint the meta-game as much as Deoxys-S does...

Deoxys-S has so many roles that it performs extremely well. It offers a diverse move pool and nearly unrivaled offensive capabilities (definitely rivaled by Greninja), especially against its counters for instance superpower for Bisharp (can run sash if it intends to counter), outspeed and take out scarfed pokes weak to ice, fire punch for iron types, pokes vulnerable to taunt, and psycho boost obliterates poison and fighting types and severely dents unresisted... Not to mention it can run a lead set and guarantee screens & rocks with extreme ease, dies fast giving ample time for a sweeper to set up. Without a poke that is specifically tailored to dismantling Deoxys-S a battler will struggle to to maintain momentum as soon as Deoxys-S enters the field.

Deoxys in general is just an uncreative pokemon in terms of battling. All of its forms crush the meta-game, leaving it flat and lifeless. There is no reason any form of Deoxys should be in the meta-game.
 
Man so much hate on DeoD/S.

@ Deo-D. It runs 1 set like 90% of the time and often can't get SR + 1-2 layers of spikes from my experience. And if it can't set up early then it's pretty much dead weight later on. I also feel like DeoSharp is too predictable these days and people will usually lead with something that can mess DeoD up.

Deo-S is the more threatening of the two IMO but I don't think it's LO set is as good as people put it out to be. It has to choose btw HP fire/knock off, which lead to different counters (chansey, aegi, scizor, ferro, and stuff).

You can also usually tell what DeoS set depending on team composition (if offense team probs dual screens, obvious if weather, LO if there is another pokemon that often sets hazards or a likely scarfer). Knock off hurts dual screens lead a lot, hazard lead is eh, and LO is usually just psycho/ice beam/knock off/superpower.

I don't think either DeoS or D deserve a ban
 
Man so much hate on DeoD/S.

@ Deo-D. It runs 1 set like 90% of the time and often can't get SR + 1-2 layers of spikes from my experience. And if it can't set up early then it's pretty much dead weight later on. I also feel like DeoSharp is too predictable these days and people will usually lead with something that can mess DeoD up.

Deo-S is the more threatening of the two IMO but I don't think it's LO set is as good as people put it out to be. It has to choose btw HP fire/knock off, which lead to different counters (chansey, aegi, scizor, ferro, and stuff).

You can also usually tell what DeoS set depending on team composition (if offense team probs dual screens, obvious if weather, LO if there is another pokemon that often sets hazards or a likely scarfer). Knock off hurts dual screens lead a lot, hazard lead is eh, and LO is usually just psycho/ice beam/knock off/superpower.

I don't think either DeoS or D deserve a ban
Not everybody plays Pokémon that can check Deoxys D. For Example you can play Mandibuzz as Taunter, so opposing Pokémon wont set up Rocks. But in Deoxys's case Deoxys is faster and Mandi gets Taunted. Knock Off doesnt hurt it so much, nor the Foul Play. Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Scizor... those defensively based Pokémon cant Defog. So you end up beating it 2HKO due to its defenses and SR and layer of spikes. And that is probably more than any other suicude lead. Forretress and Skarmory uses both SR and Spikes but they're at least slow enough to taunt them and to defog.
Problem with having two layers of hazard is, that hyperoffense team won't allow you to rest and defog, since pretty much all of your Pokémon begin to die.

Deoxys S as mentioned is fast without scarf, so it can switch moves and provide good revenge killing. Thanks to its movepool and LO its very powerful and you cannot easily stop that. yes there are priority attackers but you can team Deoxys S with for example Zapdos, that counters Scizor, Talonflame, Pinsir, more likely even Azumarill and then return with Deoxys when it is needed.

MY OPINION: DEFINATELY BAN BOTH!
 
Testing them at the same time, I see that being a bit inappropriate for deoxys-s. I don't feel deoxys-s is broken as it stands, but that seems mainly owing to the fact defence form can do his hazard lead sets better in general, thus putting a limit on versatility he wouldn't have in it's absence. It would have been interesting to see if a separate test would have demonstrate more of speeds capabilities and if it's enough to push him into the red zone of "brokenness", but as it stands I fear if he remains in ou, we may end up finding he is indeed broken in the absence of dee dee.
 
I am the kind of person that avoids banning mons unless they are extremely broken. I think Both deoxys-S and D were clearly broken last gen and up till now I thought the rise of Knock off and defog was just about enough to keep them in check. That was my opinion till a week or two ago when I saw the true power of their duel screens set on the neo-BP teams.

Stopping them getting up both screens is border line impossible. You can taunt them yes, but the opponent will just put up the appropriate screen so that Scoilipede is not overwhelmed by physical or special attacks (depending on the opposing team). Deoxys-D is near impossible to take down without it doing its job and deo-S can blow you away with Phyco-boost or any other surprise set.

The most broken thing in OU right now is Denis's BP teams, and the Deo aliens are a essential part of making it work. Without them he will have to use things like Klefki which are much, much easier to take down. Ban both Deo-S and Deo-D for their screens set, which are extremely broken.
 

ginganinja

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SMOGON U JUST MADE ME LADDER FOR BATON (never gonna give u up, never gonna let u down) PASS ;_;
Ahh well, gotta ladder again and fight for Deo-S to be saved. This thing isn't broken. It's just damn good at it's job. Aegislash should be on the chopping block before Deo-S. Ughh 2700 COIL The Sequel...here I come. Deo-S checks many of the DDers that just annihilate everything after a single dance. He also checks scarfchomp, scarfdrill, scarftar, gengar and basically everything sans Terrakion that makes Mega Pinsir and Zard-Y's lives hell, He's a godsend. I swear, you guys should really think if you want Deo-S banned. He was broken as hell last gen, but he's much more manageable this gen and really keeps the megas and thundurus in line. I'll re-write this when I'm done with work.
We don't keep broken shit in the metagame because they keep something else checked. If Scarfchomp proved to be broken without Dexoys-S in the metagame (lol), then we would simply ban Scarf Chomp. The mere fact you're willing to break one of the core rules about our suspect process indicates you potentially shouldn't even be allowed to vote even if you got the requirements.

Deo-D is definitly not op in my opinion and isnt even S worthy. If you prepare your team for it it will usually only set up sr and then die and srsly letting one pokemon die for sr doesnt sound op for me. it it would be gone, azelf would do this job.
Yea, cos we saw a surge of Azelf usage after we banned it in BW /sarcasm

Like ok, different metagames between BW and XY, but I highly doubt your prediction will be accurate.
 
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General thoughts on Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S pre-laddering
I think that both forms of deoxys aren't broken, since maybe only the Deoxys-S has some offensive potential apart from the Attack one.
BUT in my opinion they are still unhealty in this metagame and main reason is the enourmous capacity of setting spikes and stealth rocks pretty easily in the early game.
They just need to get banned since they don't improve the tier, instead, they just make it seem centralized on Deoxys Hyper Offense teams, that are almost all the same.
There's no reason to keep that in the metagame, it's like Froslass in RU, it only makes the tier more worst and unhealty by time, yes there's defog for removing hazard but i'll remember to you that a decent player will reserve his Deoxys until the defogger is dead(i will guarantee to you that with a Bisharp it's easy) and then spam all his layers of spikes and Stealth rocks on the field if he already didnt.
Deoxys-D: I think the only two viable sets of Deoxys-D are the Suicide/Hazard Lead and the Bulky Hazard Setter since the offensive set is really bad imo, and if you want to use a deoxys for offensive roles in Over Used i would suggest you to use Deoxys-S, but i'll talk about him later. Personally I don't use Deoxys-D so much at the moment since Deoxys-S is a more viable option thanks to its base speed and its still good bulk that allows you to place good damages with rocky helmet+superpower.
The set I prefer is the Hazard Lead one because it makes you in a good position in the start of the game, placing Stealth Rocks or Spikes easily and then preserving it if the opponent has a defogger, if the opponent hasnt let ur spikestacking destroy him.
The Bulky Hazard Setter set is a good option for the surprise factor too because at the moment almost all the players when they see a Deoxys-D they'll think it's the Suicide Lead since it's massively more used, but then they setup on it and they get wrecked by Thunder Wave+Rocky Helmet+Recover combo, and the Deoxys will still place Stealth Rocks or a layer of Spikes.
Deoxys-S: Im not gonna to spent many words on that since most of the things I had to say are up there.
The Speed form is the one that keep the Defensive one in the low usages for good reasons.
I just think that think has to be banned lol, it's much better than the Defensive version in my opinion, his Base Speed(180) is one of the best in the tier if not in the metagame, his bulk is just good and solid.
A massive factor is that Deoxys-S is unpredictable since it can be used in different roles: from the Hazard Lead, the Specs one to the Life Orb all out attacker set which is the most overpowered at the moment.
I use it because it's just too useful, it can place spikes and rocks easily and then hitting hard with Superpower or cleaning the opponents team completely if its weakened with the Choice Specs or the Life Orb set.
I prefer using the Hazard Lead because I feel more comfortable using it, but imo the Life Orb one releases his full potential with high base speed, decent sp. attack and attack and really good coverage which allows him to break through the majority of walls and teams.


If im gonna get the requirements im gonna ban them without doubt.
 
well i didnt play in bw.

however i still say that deo-d is not ban worthy and aegishlash and probably also char-x are more ban worthy than deo-s. atleast when i team build those last 2 pokes are more important to me and even than they give me more trouble.
 

ginganinja

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aegishlash and probably also char-x are more ban worthy than deo-s.
You are entitled to think Charizard-X and Aegislash are worse ( or more banworthy) than Deoxys-S, thats your own opinion and are fully entitled to it. That said, please (and this goes for everyone), do not use this argument in an anti ban post, because it has no relevance on how we suspect things. This is the second time someone has used this argument (just on this page), so I'm issuing a general warning that I will start infracting posts that continue to use this or very similar justifications to vote in against (or support of), a ban.

If you wish to know more about the suspect process, and the type of arguments you SHOULD be using, you are welcome to PM our OU Moderator and OU Suspect Council member Haunter for more infomation.
 

PokèManiac Livio

Un panino al salame
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Oh finally, I've been waiting for a long this suspect, both forms are broken as hell, but in my opinion only Deo-S need to be banned. Minimum two layer of hazard on the field, the access to Superpower against Bishap or Mega Absol, possible Ice Beam/Psichoboost against Taunt or Thunder Wave Thundurus, base speed over 9000 (180) and his ductility. Helmet version is also a cancer, All out attacker outsped basically all the metagame, choice scarf included (The only one faster is Sand Rush Excadrill). I got my doubts about Defensive version, but if they are both banned the metagame can only get better
 
Okay going to keep it short and try to avoid stressing points that have already been mentioned. These are my opinions.

Deo-D: Boring, overrated setup fodder. Teamslot dedicated to hazards. Doesn't function as well without Bisharp to take the Defog, Skarm and Mandi can beat Bisharp, decent Lati play forces 50-50s. Needs Balloon Aegislash for Excadrill. Not banworthy IMO.

Deo-S: I love this thing and it has to go ;_;. Unpredictable, great lead, best dual screener, best revenge killer by far, allows teams to not even care about opposing sweepers hitting +1. One thing I would like to emphasize on why Deo-S is unhealthy is because it has utterly killed Choice Scarf by being faster and having better coverage than any scarfer WHILE being able to run LO and change attacks. Ridonkulous.
 
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Glad we are targeting these insta stealth rock and most of the time layer of spikes users.

That being said, if we are going to be doing a lot of consecutive suspects (imo we should) any possibility of having suspects req carry on from one test to the other?
Reason being is getting req are quite tedious about 70+ games. Also, most of the time it is a lot of the same people that gets the reqs. Also if we are doing them in quick succession like this the meta won't change all that much one suspect to another.
 

Dread Arceus

total cockhead
The first time Deo-S was getting suspected, I was against its banning. Its hazards set was pretty mediocre, and could be done just as easily by things like Aerodactyl and Azelf, while its revenge killing set was fairly good, albeit not broken. However, I now realize that there's another set that Deoxys can run that is simply too powerful: DeoScreens. If you search RMTs for 5 minutes, you'll quickly come across a few teams that have peaked in the top 10-25, that probably wouldn't have broken 1600 had it not been for Deo-S providing Screens (I mean, come on...Virizion?). For that set alone, I say ban Deoxys-S.

As far as Deo-D goes, it's easily the best at what it does, ie set hazards. It's frustrating, hard to prevent layers from going up, and has even inspired some weird leads like SD Garchomp. Regardless of its broken, though, we really should ban Deoxys-D just to get the metagame to stop being so goddamn boring. Maybe we'll finally start seeing some-dare I say it-lead variety
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
If you wish to know more about the suspect process, and the type of arguments you SHOULD be using, you are welcome to PM our OU Moderator and OU Suspect Council member Haunter for more infomation.
The Deoxys formes are by a large margin the most suspect-worthy Pokémon that are currently OU. Chou Toshio's survey just confirmed what we had been thinking for quite a while. There is nothing to discuss here.
That being said, if we are going to be doing a lot of consecutive suspects (imo we should) any possibility of having suspects req carry on from one test to the other?
Reason being is getting req are quite tedious about 70+ games. Also, most of the time it is a lot of the same people that gets the reqs. Also if we are doing them in quick succession like this the meta won't change all that much one suspect to another.
No. The metagame changes after each ban/unban. As much as you might find the ladder boring, you're required to play
4-5 matches per day, a minor sacrifice for whoever wants to contribute to shape our most important tier.
 

alexwolf

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Just an advice if you don't want to have your post deleted: Don't post the obvious. Yes we all know what Deo-D and Deo-S do in a nutshell and we don't need to see it posted a million times in this thread. If you want to make a post with a few lines that is not an answer to somebody, make sure it actually adds something to the discussion.
 
Okay, here's what I think about it. The main problem about these two pokemon is that they are absolutely perfect at doing their respective jobs. Let me elaborate.

Deo-D has only one job, which is hazard setter. And it's perfect at it. If you lead with another hazard setter, Deo-D will win, due to its higher speed than most setters, and Taunt/Magic Coat/Mental Herb, and the fact that its enormous bulk lets it survive the attacks of most common leads. Unless you are very lucky and manage to trick Deo-D into using Taunt as you attack, chances are you are losing the hazard war and letting your opponent lay more hazards. On the other hand, if you lead with something offensive to kill it fast, it's still impossible to stop it from laying at least rocks (since the very few pokemon who can OHKO it are slower than it), and it still has a good chance of using multiple layers of spikes assuming it's lucky enough with red card. So in the end, Deo-D is guaranteed to lay more hazards than any opponent, almost every time.

Now let's check Deo-S. This thing has 3 main sets: hazard lead, dual screens lead, and revenge killer. The hazard lead set, imo, is not a problem. It's just a little better than most leads with Focus Sash + Stealth Rock, which are also guaranteed to lay rocks, and it's easily stopped from going any further by any strong attacker with a priority move. So in the end, you sack a pokemon to use just one layer of hazards, while isn't necessarily a good proposition. This pokemon will likely replace Deo-D if only it gets banned, but I don't perceive that as a problem.

The dual screens set, on the other hands, is where things get ugly. I've seen a lot of people whining about the new BP team. And the problem is that such a team isn't much different than a set up sweeping team, it doesn't have a strong defensive core like the old BP, it just relies on getting boosts fast to obtain an invincible mon, which is what any dual screens team does. What makes it so scary is that its dual screen pokemon (Deo-S) is simply the best there is (and also the fact that is is BP team, which tends to cause more panic in this community than any other playstyle). I can't think of a single pokemon who can reliably prevent Deo-S from using both screens every single time. Save for Aegislash, but even this one is likely forced out after it KOs Deo-S due to Light Screen (though it manages to prevent Reflect). That makes setting up anything braindead easy, and while BP is the one that is creating more panic, other sweepers can be also just as effective. I mean, what if the opponent brings a Dragonite next? With both screens and multiscale, that thing will likely use DD twice and destroy your team. And you car hardly do anything to stop it unless you get a perfect match-up against your opponent's choice of sweeper, because Deo-S is just perfect at the job.

Finally, the LO set. It's the best revenge killer in the tier. It's not perfect, though, due to the fact it has only one move that isn't below average in power (Psycho Boost), and it's reliance on multiple moves that reduce its attack power after you use them once (PB, Superpower and Knock Off). So it can be beaten by smart switching, it fails to OHKO a lot of things and it's particulary vulnerable to priority. It's amazing, one of the best sets in the entire metagame, but not unbeatable. I doubt it should be banned just because of this set, though I wouldn't really mind if it was, due to how good it is. Now, when you add the dual screens set, it's when it becomes a problem. Because the very existance of the two sets makes them better. The fact that Deo-S could have a LO set and kick the ass of your anti-lead will make your opponent think twice about using an anti-lead against the screens set, and vice-versa.

Last, here is the main thing about these pokemon: they are broken by design. It's clear that Gamefreak never intended them to be part of a balanced meta. All four Deoxys forms have one thing in common: completely "off the charts" stats that are impossible to be surpassed be anything else in OU. They are just extreme. Deo-A and Deo-N are the unstoppable attacking machines that nothing can hope to wall. Deo-D is the unstoppable hazard lead that nothing can stop from doing its job. And Deo-S is the unstoppable speedster that will always get two turns to do whatever it wants to, or outspeed even scarfers to revenge them. They are just too perfect for a balanced meta. They are binary pokemon that are guaranteed to win in each of their specific jobs. And I don't believe such a thing should exist in this meta.

So, TL;DR, ban both Deo-D and Deo-S.
 
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HBK

Subtlety is my middle name
In my opinion, Deoxys-D is a better hazard setter than Deoxys-S as it's greater bulk provides it with the luxury to run a Mental Herb or even a Rocky Helmet whereas Deoxys-S is forced to carry a Focus Sash. And you can stop Deoxys-S from getting spikes up if you have a pokemon with a strong STAB and a priority move (Diggersby,Azumarril,Aegislash,etc.) but the same cannot be said for Deoxys-D. The latter's non reliance on a Focus Sash allows it to switch out against opponents like Aegislash or Bisharp with minimal risk whereas the former risks having it's Sash broken on entry and/or being KO'ed by virtually anything. However, Deoxys-S is far more efficient at setting up dual screens which puts the opposing player at an immediate disadvantage. It's also really unpredictable which makes it much harder to check. I would, therefore, like to ban both of them.
 

TheEnder

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OK, inb4 thread goes cancer

I'm just gonna give my two cents on the problems with Deoxys-S;


That picture summarizes the situation pretty well; every single set and role it is chosen to do, it does well. In fact, it's the best Pokemon at exactly what you want it to do. Do you want a revenge killer? Deo-S is one of the best. Dual screener? The ablosute best and the only reason BP still works ;_;. Sash lead? You ain't got no choice (except Deo-D).

In addition to being the most versatile Poke in the game, it has another factor bound to it. Just like with the Charizards, you have to guess (or try to read from team structure) what kind of set it runs. Predicting the wrong set can end up costing you the game. This is in my opinon a huge something to consider when talking about Deoxys-S. Some months ago we were all going apeshit about CharX, and some wanted a ban. The main argument brought up was the problems when predicting fromes. In Deoxys's, this prediction is not only harder, but it can be more fatal than most other choices.
 
Being the best at something doesnt make it bannable. No matter how many things you ban something will always be the best at any given role. Don't talk about how deoxys is the best hazards/screens lead. we know that. give me a real reason to ban it. 95 base offense stats on deoS arent great, but passable, and it makes a good support suicide lead. neither of those things is broken. I see the same arguments over and over but they 're just talking about how reliable hazards aren't good for the format and theres a lack of priority to stop deoS when aegislash is like THE ou mon.

tl:dr it might need to be banned but i have yet to hear a good reason for it.
 
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