np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched

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Question: Is it for only the OU (Suspect) ladder or for both OU and the OU (Suspect) ladder. It's done differently a lot so I'd like some extra clarification please! n__n
If the previous suspect tests have been any indication, it's just the suspect ladder that you need the COIL req on.

Edit so this isn't a one liner:
Since we all know what the alien viruses can do, let's take a look at how the rest of the metagame might be affected should they go.

There are still plenty of viable hazard layers around, e.g. certain Tyranitar sets for rocks and Ferrothorn or Klefki for spikes. Most teams that heavily utilize them (mostly HO, but other teams can as well) would look to one of these mons for that role. The latter two don't really change much to fit into these roles tbqh, so those playstyles will still be viable.

Hazard control users might see a drop in use but as I mentioned, there will still be hazards around. Bisharp probably won't change much, but he will get new teammates.

Of course, there are other things they can do besides hazards. D is arguably the best wall in OU right now, and we all know how fast S is; it can go offensive (which is its best set imo) and even RK Talonflame with E-speed, despite the seeming overkill on gotta-go-fast-ness. D can handle unboosted TF as well. If the aliens go, I can see TF being even harder to wall than it already is.

Overall, the biggest change I could see is Talonflame running rampant, but not much else changing much. I'm actually undecided at this point; I'll head onto the ladder and see what happens.
 
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Jukain

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In my opinion, Deo-D is not really broken. It's actually rather overrated. It can consistently be taken advantage of by the likes of CM Lando, SR SD Chomp, NP Thundurus, etc. and can be blocked to one layer of hazards by Knock Off Landorus, Aegislash, and Bisharp. Furthermore, hazards are not actually that difficult to remove, and Bisharp is cute and all, but everyone especially using a Defogger is prepared for it, as it is a top-tier threat. However, I still think it needs to be banned, for one major reason: it encourages a type of brainless hyper offense where all of the teams look basically the same and, combined with Deo-S, centralizes the metagame around a devastating type of hyper offensive teams. Nothing fills the role of setting up early-game hazards as perfectly as Deo-D; it has the stats and the movepool that gear it to thrive at this role. I don't think it belongs in a healthy tier.

Deo-S, on the other hand, is ridiculously broken. I'm not going to rehash everything that's been said already, but tl;dr too much it can do and a god at all of it, not at all healthy for the tier.
 

Jacks0n

formerly grassycow
I'll just throw in my 2 cents

I'm not going to say anything about deo d because everything I wanted to say has already been said. I don't think it's as borked as it's speedy counterpart but it is still extremely unhealthy.

Deo s is so borked. Having more speed than scarf chomp and being able to switch moves around and have them boosted by LO is so ridiculous. Deo s is just to overpowered with its 4 attacks LO set. It also has an amazing dual screens set which can prevent opposing rocks and lay you're own. It is simply too fast and too versatile and it makes the meta quite unhealthy.
 
Warning: What is hidden is regarding Deo-S, and my opinions on it might not be valid, as I have a very one-sided view of it, so feel free not to regard what's written about it seriously, as it's just my personal experience with it:
I'm a stall player, mostly, and I can honestly say I've never struggled against Deo-S. Revenge killers are typically something I don't worry too much about, as being able to revenge kill Chansey, Quagsire, Skarmory/Ferrothorn, and Clefable isn't exactly a stellar accomplishment. And honestly, Deo-S isn't strong enough to revenge kill most of them anyway, especially something like CM Clefable after a few boosts. With a LO, yes, it's pretty powerful, but as long as you're running Knock Off, which many teams have taken to doing, all it takes is losing that LO and this thing is piss-weak. I have a fairly limited knowledge of how Deo-S fares against balance and offense, so perhaps it does more damage to those play styles than stall. The Dual Screens set isn't so bad either. If you see Deo-S + Bisharp, it's pretty much guaranteed that Deo-S will be the lead, so prepare for it. Against DeoSharp, I typically lead with Gothitelle and Psychic it to death. Gothitelle is piss-weak, but the Dual Screens set often doesn't even have an attacking move, so by the time Goth kills it off, there aren't many turns left. Same thing with hazard stacking variants. Although on balanced teams, just lead with any bulky attacker first, like Scizor or Heatran, and it can be dealt away with fairly quickly. Again, my experience against Deo-S is fairly limited, as I don't venture far outside of Stall and Balance, so if it tears Offensive teams a new asshole, I don't have much to offer in that regard. I have no opinion one way or another on the banning of Deo-S, honestly.


Now, Deo-D, on the other hand, can be a nightmare to deal with if you're a stall user. Or balance. And it seems like to offense, too. Unless you have a faster/prioritized Taunter (or Crawdaunt), you can't prevent it from getting up a hazard or two. As a stall player, my only ways of dealing with it are Tricking it a Scarf and psychic-ing it to deal, or lead with Chansey and Seismic Toss the fucker to death, and even then it's guaranteed to get up several hazards. With Balance, there's just nothing strong enough outside of shit like Crawdaunt that can kill the thing unboosted. The reliability at which this thing can get hazards up is insane.
 

alexwolf

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Some people say that Deoxys-D is the best at what it does, but what it does is not so great anymore. This is true to an extend. Defog exists, and Latios and Latias sit at 110 Speed and have many opportunities to use it, alongside Excadrill, a fantastic Rapid Spin user. So, this means that when using Deoxys-D you have to provide it the necessary support to make sure that the hazards won't easily be removed and thus your teamslot won't have been wasted. To do this, you need one Defiant user, a spinblocker (even if it dies to Excadrill, being able to spinblock it even once does the trick), and fast, powerful Pokemon that can prevent Defog and Rapid Spiner users from getting rid of the hazards or can punish them hard for getting rid of them. However, Bisharp is one of the best Pokemon to use on hyper offensive teams anyway, due to its strong priority, good sweeping ability, ability to trap threatening Pokemon and pave the way for other Pokemon to sweep, and its ability to check some dangerous threats, such as Clefable, Latios, Latias, and Deoxys-S, so using it on your team is hardly, if ever, a limitation. Defiant Thundurus is a great Pokemon but it's viability stems from the fact that it can punish the use of Defog, so i won't talk about it, because without heavy hazard support, Defiant Thundurus would be replaced by Prankster sets, which are much better outside of punishing Defog users. As for fast and strong Pokemon that can punish the opponent for giving you a free turn, those are exactly the kind of Pokemon that HO teams use, so no limitation here either.

So, basically, the only real limitation when using Deoxys-D is the need to use a Ghost-type if you want to keep your hazards up against Excadrill, a threat that has been on the rise lately. And even though teams with Latios, Latias, Kabutops, or Excadrill can usually find a chance to get rid of hazards or at least threaten to do so in order to get the upper hand of the game, the teams that don't use those Pokemon struggle a lot against Deo-D HO. Even though sand offense, rain offense, and offensive teams in general can deal with the hazards that Deo-D sets up, teams with other, more defensive or balanced anti-hazard means, such as Zapdos, Mega Scizor, Skarmory, and Mandibuzz, can't, and that's where the problems lies. And i am not talking only about stall teams, i am talking about any team that relies on a defensive core to handle offensive threats, all of which usually employ defensive Defog users. Deoxys-D has a huge advantage against any such kind of team, making the game way more offensive and match-up reliant. For those reasons, it's broken.

And that's where Deoxys-S comes in, taking advantage of the offensive metagame to shine with its revenge killing prowess and excellent supporting abilities. Be it support or offense, Deoxys-S does both of those jobs admirably. The first time Deoxys-S was suspected, i voted to keep it in OU, because each individual set wasn't broken imo, and the metagame wasn't mature enough for me to realize Deoxys-S's impact on it. However, now i do. Deoxys-S's combination of dual hazards, Taunt, dual screens, unmatched Speed, and great immediate firepower make it a truly broken Pokemon. It can revenge kill a multitude of Pokemon like no other Pokemon can, and simultaneously set up SR and prevent Defog and Rapid Spin users from getting rid of it with Taunt or its attacking options. It can work as a lead that provides every kind of support you would want on an offensive team, be it Duals Screens, Rain Dance, or dual hazards. And the worst is that it can mix all those roles together, making you struggle to find its moveset, which often comes at the cost of a Pokemon or momentum, momentum which is almost impossible to regain unless you really go out of your way. And that is the biggest problem. Deoxys-S doesn't have a single broken set, but all of them combined together make playing around it a gamble. Whatever Deo-S's purpose on a team is, it will almost always perform it while simultaneously leaving no room to the opponent to regain momentum. Even if Deo-S ends up dying in the process, it will have done its job and it will have put its team to a pretty advantageous position. And when Deo-S can do so many tasks for offensive teams almost flawlessly, you know that something is wrong.

Lastly and obviously, if only Deo-D gets banned, Deo-S will immediately rise to take its position as a dual hazards lead that will be almost as effective. Deoxys-S can fully invest in bulk as it doesn't need any Speed, can outspeed and Taunt every Taunt and hazard user in OU, unlike Deo-D, so it won't have any need for Mental Herb or Magic Coat, freeing up a moveslot or an itemslot. On the itemslot, it can run the Ghost-reducing Berry to be able to set up both layers of hazards against Aegislash. On the moveslot, it can run Reflect, to give it a buffer against physical priority. Or it can use Red Card, similarly with Deoxys-D, in combination with Superpower, making almost sure that it will set up two layers of hazards unless a Scarfer or a priority user comes in, with Superpower taking care of the few Pokemon that can OHKO Deo-S, such as Bisharp and Tyranitar. So, to those who only want Deo-D gone, you can be sure that Deo-S will take its place and force very similar limitations to teambuilding and similar match-up reliance. Deo-S is more or less every bit as effective as Deo-D at a dual hazard setter lead in a Deo-D-less metagame, so if you want Deo-D gone you have to get rid of Deo-S gone too.
 
For future reference, posting "lol Deoxys-S isnt broken because Scizor can kill it if it has no Fire Punch" and "Sucker Punch exists" isnt a "well substantiated" argument. Especially when you claim Azumarill can deal with it when 2 Psycho Boosts to its face will tear it apart. Try to concentrate on stuff like Deoxys's unparalleled team support capabilities, both through utility and its offensive movepool if you want to make arguments as thats what is wrong with it.
 
Deoxys-S is really easy to fit on a team. We all know how versatile it is. Its speed is unparalleled in OU, allowing it to out-speed even most Scarfers and taunt all defensive walls. Its a nightmare for offensive teams too as already mentioned, it outspeeds all relevant Scarfers and can strike with a powerful Psycho Boost. Psycho Boost's sheer power allows it to ignore its mediocre offensive stats and take out the HO's most relevant threats. Due to HO being the most common play-style, Deoxys-S is very prominent in today's metagame. It's probably ban-worthy with the multiple roles it can fulfil on a team.
Deoxys-D on the other hand, is a nightmare for defensive teams. Along with a defiant user and a spinblocker, there is no way defensive teams can get rid of the hazards without giving the defiant user a boost, making it very dangerous. The only problem with Deoxys-D is that most spinblockers are threatened by Excadrill, the premier spinner of OU. Still ban-worthy imo though
 

Mew2

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However, I still think it needs to be banned, for one major reason: it encourages a type of brainless hyper offense where all of the teams look basically the same and, combined with Deo-S, centralizes the metagame around a devastating type of hyper offensive teams.
This is why I stopped playing OU, with Deo-sharp cores in every corner, hyper offense overcentralizes the metagame and makes stall and balance very hard to play. I see Deoxys-D as the RU shuckle, setting 2 hazards 99% of the time adding a lot of offensive pressure in the early game. If we want the OU metagame to evolve into a more balance playstyle Deoxys-D must go.
 
Maybe it's just because I play ubers, but the argument that deoxys is the best support doesn't lead me to want a ban, nor does it supporting offensive strategies "too" well. Metagames shift, and I honestly think we need to either wait a bit or re-evaluate what "broken" is when the ability to set 2 layers of hazards is "game breaking". Ubers may be the format of broken shit but people look for ways to deal with it, and it doesn't have to be straight checks/counters. Xerneas, a stupidly powerful mon with a variety of sets is fairly hard to deal with, especially at +2/+2/+2, and there are teams that would just lose if xerneas gets off 1 geomancy, but those teams perform well by applying pressure enough that xern either never gets that chance or it sacrifices enough hp to do so that it's revengeable. Also I don't see why in a format with aegislash and scoli so incredibly popular that deoxys is seen as hard to deal with. Life orb deoS is so incredibly frail that while a good revenge killer, its also not hard to switch something in on and its also not hard to kill it with basically any priority at all (and I'm sorry but I'm not buying that "most" ou teams don't have priority of some sort).
 
Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D do the "broken support pokemon" thing better than anyone else. I think part of the reason why they only got suspected (again) now is that they are way less flashier than the previous suspects, but now, especially with the new 3BP teams, it's becoming obvious that these guys need to get out of OU. Anyone who thinks Deoxys-S is not as broken as Deoxys-D, please look at what its dual-screener set can do, especially when it's passing those screens to a BP chain (or a similarly threatening sweeper).

Deoxys-D, on the other hand, seems to be getting ignored by some players because "oh just because it's the best doesn't mean it's broken, also DEFOG" but I don't think it's a coincidence that for the majority of Gen VI OU the best teams were HO (or things that preyed on HO, like Swagplay) (the only outlier was Baton Pass) and I think part of it is thanks to Deoxys-D's ability to gain so much of an early game advantage with its hazards, forcing the opponent to either continually take damage when switching in (which is a necessity when dealing with HO) or give up momentum by getting rid of hazards (which can be punished via Bisharp). Long story short, Deoxys-D is the man behind HO's dominance so far in OU.
 
I dunno. Maybe it's because I always carry mons that can make short work of either form, but neither of the Deos scream broken to me. They're good at doing their job, but so are Froslass and Shuckle, and I'm not seeing those guys suspected any time soon. This really feels more like a move against hazards if anything. If the Deos go, something WILL rise in their place. Klefki's got prankster screens, spikes, and T-wave going, and only dies to the most absurd of SE hits. Lass and Shuckle have spikes, webs, and rocks, and the while latter absolutely cannot be stopped from doing his job, the former is extremely difficult to stop from doing hers.

Eh, I'm really not convinced this will get you your "healthy metagame".
 
I'm definitely going to vote to ban both.
Deoxys-D is pretty much guaranteed hazards. Nothing can OHKO it unboosted, and the fact that it can run stuff like red card or mental herb makes it even better. It can also run mirror coat to surprise OHKO aegi and Superpower to surprise OHKO bisharp, the two main counter-leads that try to limit it to one layer of hazards. It has decent speed and can outrun many other hazard leads, and it can carry taunt and magic coat.
What I really want to emphasize though, is recover Deoxys-D. Sounds kind of stupid, perhaps, and is set up on (one boost), sure. But this thing can literally switch into most if not all relevant defoggers and use pressure to stall out Defog. With pressure, 12 defogs is actually rather limiting. For example, you know they're going to defog, you switch in deo-d, their mandi/lati/zapdos/skarm can't do crap to your taunt / magic coat + recover deo-d, and you just set up rocks again on the switch. I personally sometimes pair it with an unaware clef or quag, and sometimes ditto just for good measure.

Deoxys-S is just very unpredictable. It outspeeds the entire relevant +1 meta, can taunt, set up screens, and hazards. It's crazy.
But more importantly, the life orb set is just really really good. With life orb, Deoxys-S gets just enough power to OHKO threats with SE hits. Knock off + Superpower is already great coverage, psycho boost hits pretty damn hard and ice beam is overall excellent coverage in this meta. You pretty much go "oh look, the remaining 4/6 members of their team is outsped (obviously) and Deoxys-S can hit them SE so they'll be OHKO'd, nice."
 
I dunno. Maybe it's because I always carry mons that can make short work of either form, but neither of the Deos scream broken to me. They're good at doing their job, but so are Froslass and Shuckle, and I'm not seeing those guys suspected any time soon. This really feels more like a move against hazards if anything. If the Deos go, something WILL rise in their place. Klefki's got prankster screens, spikes, and T-wave going, and only dies to the most absurd of SE hits. Lass and Shuckle have spikes, webs, and rocks, and the while latter absolutely cannot be stopped from doing his job, the former is extremely difficult to stop from doing hers.

Eh, I'm really not convinced this will get you your "healthy metagame".
Klefki doesn't have rocks and isn't particularly bulky or have any good way of dealing damaging, apart from Foul Play.
Froslass doesn't have rocks, though Destiny Bond is really annoying. It's still not as good as the Deo's
Shuckle only has rocks and Sticky Web is very ineffectual in OU, due to the number of stuff that's immune, doesn't care, or is Bisharp. It also heals its opponents if it attacks.

I don't think anyone is kidding themselves that Hazard Offense will die off if Deo-D and S are banned, but it's not going to be so mindlessly easy. Every other hazard setter has some important flaw that doesn't make them as good as Deos, whether it be not having both of Spikes and Stealth Rock, being susceptible to Taunt, being set-up bait, having zero offensive presence, or being susceptible to being OHKOed by more than a couple things that aren't extremely niche.

Meanwhile, Deo-D is nigh flawless in its role. Its only flaw is that it's set-up bait for a handful of things that are immune to Thunder Wave and which are over 90 base speed (so SD Garchomp, CM Lando, NP Thundurus, uhhh that's basically it.) Compared to other hazard setters, that's really its only flaw (aside from stupid nit-picky stuff like "it can't spinblock its own hazards like Froslass can.)

Edit: Liarliarpantsonfire PO stats had Blaziken in UU range for the entirety of its stay in OU before it got banned last gen, just gonna let you know.
 
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Funny how on Showdown Deoxys-D is being suspected for Ubers while on Pokemon Online it's in range to drop to NU. Personally I don't see the problem with Deoxys-D. Yeah, it's really good at setting up Spikes and Stealth Rock, arguably the best. People are saying: "but it's so hard to stop it from setting up two layers of hazards" when realistically, there's countless pokemon that setup Stealth Rock reliably. So that implies Deoxys-D is broken because of that one, extra layer of Spikes it can setup reliably. Now with reliable, we all mean sacrificing Deoxys-D in the process but everybody conveniently doesn't mention that ofcourse. Okay, you have Spikes and Rocks up, but then you're 5 to 6. If your opponent Defogs, you can bring in your Bisharp/Defiant Thundurus if you run either of them and get the boost, but then you're still 5 to 6 but without any hazards or any possiblity to get them up. If your Bisharp/Defiant user gets one kill, your opponent can just revenge kill it afterwards and then you're still behind 4 to 5, or if you switch out 5 to 5 and they get a free turn. Seems to be pretty even to me. SpikeStack has been a good playstyle since forever in pretty much all the tiers, but you guys are really exaggerating their strength once more.

As for Deoxys-S, I'm on the fence because it's incredibly good in the current metagame, but I'm not sure if it's too good. I'd say the LO set pushes it over the edge, just because you can't reliably revenge kill it without priority and it revenge kills a substantial amount of common pokemon itself. Even Stall has difficulties playing around it because of its coverage, Knock Off and threatening to OHKO Mega Venusaur.
 

Chou Toshio

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Deo-S: Too much coverage, too much speed. I said it the first time this was tested, but while DS's base power might not be very impressive, it's Speed breaks a major dimension of the game, and its coverage is a major problem. Talonflame's a major ass with just flying coverage, but even with just 90 base ATK/SpA, Deo-S is like a poke with huge base power priority in Ice, Electric, Fighting, Psychic, Fire, and Knock Off-- which is just stupid. Add it's Taunt, Screen, and Hazard setting abilities into the mix, and you got a Poke that will never be good for any meta, no matter the power creep.

Deo-D: I'll be more convinced when players stop letting me DD up on this thing, one shot it with Mega Tar, and proceed to sweep half their team. I mean of course it could use red card (or superpower?)-- but while there's a lot of things Deo-D could do to fuck up specific threats to its game, it can't stop everything with one set, and goes down surprisingly frequently without achieving enough to really make up for that lost team slot.

Point is, Deo-D is more of a high risk investment than it seems (definitely more than Aegislash anyway-- med risk/high reward < 0 risk / HIGH reward), and is only problematic because it's backed by synergy with lots of other really broken crap.

I wouldn't mind seeing Deo-D banned, but we're just going to have to deal with the same kind of teams when people start throwing around mental herb/red card lead Skarm and eventually Klefki (if when it gets SR). Hazards should be easier to handle than ever this meta, and if they're not easier to handle, Deo-D is certainly not the reason.


edit:

...
...

srsly?

Anyway, to me, the biggest problem with Deo-SHARP teams isn't Deo-D's ability to lay hazards, but the incredible offensive power of other key members that enable those hazards to stay up. There are other really good hazard setters, and said teams will continue to thrive as long as maintaining hazards through offensive pressure is kept easy.
 
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For one Deo-S is an excellent revenge killer but it is very vulnerable to priority.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 256-303 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And you have some chance to ohko with Psycho Boost.
Oh,and this isn't even the defensive version (252/240+).

Deo-S: I think that at the moment Deo-S should be banned. He is definitely better than the D version.
He can survive out of the earlygame,he can be a good mixed attacker,his speed allows him to outspeed scarfers and statuppers too,and overall,the bulkyness difference is minimum. (especially for the screener set)
#banplz

Deo-D: With the buff of defog DeoD has been nerfed quite a bit.
I think he's a tough guy,but he's not banworthy. Or at least,not as much as the S form.

Before I close my intervention,I want to make some general considerations.
First,I think both them had to be banned together with the other forms. Or at least,you should've banned DeoS when it was suspected together with Lucarionite and Genesect.
Second,there are other things to suspect at the moment,such as MegazardX,Thundurus and overall MegazardY.
Just my opinion btw <3
 
Deo-D isn't OP, hazards are OP, and Deo-D is the best setter. But, there are many other mons that can set hazards well without dedicating an entire teamslot for it. If anything there are just far too few viable defoggers (Lati@s, Mew, Mandi, Zapdos, Skarm...any more?) and only a single viable spinner. Offensive teams are forced to run either Lati or Drill if they want to take hazards off which is really centralizing. Isn't it enough that having to use Defog allows the opponent to switch into what they want and gain momentum? But no, theres a mon who is absolutely fearsome at +2 that can take the free Defog and can't be OHKOed by a single Defogger bar HP Fighting. It's too easy to set hazards in this meta and too hard to remove them without consequence. This is one main limiting factor for balanced teams.

Now, IMHO and experience DeoSharp teams are bloody easy to beat. But the teams with one rock setter and one spikes setter (which don't dedicate their roles entirely to hazards), along with a Bisharp are far more threatening. These teams can run balance while not bothering to run hazard control because they force the Defog from the opponent. Rocky Helmet Skarmory and Ferrothorn can punish Excadrill's spins while setting hazards all over it. There's probably no way to nerf hazards but the easiest way to make them more manageable would be to get rid of Bisharp or ban it's ability, not Deo-D. Sorry for going against the basic rule of the thread but it was to point out why Deo-D seems broken when it's not, as similarly mentioned by Chou.
 
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Pyritie

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But no, theres a mon who is absolutely fearsome at +2 that can take the free Defog and can't be OHKOed by a single Defogger bar HP Fighting.
Zapdos with Heat Wave OHKOs bisharp, though zapdos does have problems with thundurus.
 
Zapdos with Heat Wave OHKOs bisharp, though zapdos does have problems with thundurus.
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 222-262 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 222-262 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - (Bulky Leftovers Bish can hit 201 Speed with 100 EVs which is generally enough. A better option for balanced teams)

Offensive Zapdos KOes but it isn't a good defogger or even a good option because Zapdos wants to check Landorus/BirdSpam.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
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0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 222-262 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 222-262 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - (Bulky Leftovers Bish can hit 201 Speed with 100 EVs which is generally enough. A better option for balanced teams)

Offensive Zapdos KOes but it isn't a good defogger or even a good option because Zapdos wants to check Landorus/BirdSpam.
Zapdos' set has 68 SpA EVs, giving:
68 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 236-278 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
which is less than I thought it was, so you're right, but it still does a load
 
So a lot has already been said, and I do not have a lot to add to it I think but still.

Deo-d being around just is not good for the meta, it just isn't. Because it can so effectively set hazards, can is easily paired with 5 powerful member that abuse spikes it really discourages things like balance. It just isn't worth it to try get rid of the hazards, as you will most likely get set up on. Even when you do try to do so, you are met with defiant and balloon aegislash is also a thing that gets around excadrill. This is not why it should get banned, hazards were also overcentralizing in gen5 ubers, but nobody complained then. But this is much different, using deo-d you can easily put such great pressure on you opponent that it isnt even worth it to run balance (like I said) and I find it very overcentralizing. Also deosharp just has bisharp bc it is a good mon/good abuser of spikes that also has defiant, but then you still have 4 dangerous pokes left. I do not think it is a skill-less strat, nor do I think it is absolutely broken but it is not healthy for the meta. This is the same reason it got banned early BW, I think deo-d should go.

Deo-s I'm not too sure about, I have used it didnt find it too good/broken. It does have great coverage and speed, but it is pretty frail and gets pretty easily revenged by priority mainly sucker punch, gw brave bird and sneak from aegislash. Especially if you predict well around it, you can lower psycho boost's power, and then it is more easily wallable. I'm also glad it can beat stall, to some point. It just is a mon that I do not think is very broken nor overcentralizing.
 
Deo-D: I somewhat understand where people are coming from when they say that Deo-D is centralizing the meta. Deo/Sharp basicly defines HO, a very popular playstyles atm because its so easy to build and play. However from my experience on the high ladder its not like HO is THE Playstyle to play atm. When laddering offense is certainly the most common playstyle but only a fraction of the offense teams are actually Deo/Sharp teams, there are many other efficient ways to build HO teams without Deo-D, there are also Sand and Rainteams which have a pretty good matchup against Deo/Sharp. After more than 1k games with balanced teams on the high ladder I can also say with certainty that balanced is a perfectly viable playstyle though its harder to build than offense, but if build properly it can beat everything. I dont have any experience with stall but judging by the amount of stall teams that run rampant above the 1700 benchmark on the ladder it also seems to be perfectly viable.
What i am trying to say here is that, while Deo/Sharp is a prominent playstyle, its not like its the only one viable. I wouldnt even say its the most viable especially higher up on the ladder where people know how to deal with it. So yeah it is somewhat centralizing but imo not to an extent where it needs to be banned for it.

Deo-D itself is very good at getting up those hazards but its sacrificing itself to do that, so its not like you get those hazards up for free, you dedicated a whole teamslot to get up those 2 layers and are now fighting 5 vs 6. And while removing those hazards usually has consequences for the opponent (+2 Bisharp) its not like these consequences are much of a problem for a well built team. Bisharp itself is a A+ threat and a very dangerous sweeper so every team has to prepare for it even without Deo-D and its not that difficult to stop it even at +2 with hardstops like Terrakion, Breloom and Keldeo on almost every team. Even if the opponent is forced to sac something to get his Bisharp counter in, its just 5 vs 5 now and the hazards are gone, if he manages to remove the hazards without losing something, which is totaly possible, the opponent even ends up in a advantageous position.

Deo-S: Imo its even less bannworthy than Deo-D because its not centralizing the meta as much as his brother. Its Hazard Set is outclassed by Deo-D, Dual Screens are awesome but see very little use outside of BP and they wouldnt be that good without BP because normal quick pass is far easier to counter than BP, even with screens up.
Its revengekilling set is good, I used it myself on a team for a long time but its not even close to beeing broken. Its frailness in combination with its bad typing and Life Orb severly limit its potential as it will die very fast especially with SR on the field. Switching it into attacks is almost impossible and even if you manage to switch it into something, you can only do it once cause it takes 50+% of damage from basicly everything. The fact that its forced to switch out after using its main attack once makes this frailness even worse. Priority is another big problem for it especially on things its supposed to stop like Dragonite or Pinsir. That beeing said, it isnt even that reliable at revenging common threats.

244 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 273-321 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

only 50% chance even against an offensive set, it needs prior damage to stop it reliably and even more against a defensive set.

12 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 203-239 (61.1 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even after rocks it fails to ohko.

244 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 261-308 (96.3 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 211-250 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

With rocks up it falls to Quickattack and without rocks on the opponents side it doesnt kill reliably.

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 240-283 (99.5 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Almost no chance to stop Dragonite.

12 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 307-364 (89.7 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Even here it needs prior damage.

Dont even have to talk about Bisharp or Mawile here. Scarf Chomp/Terrakion are more reliable at stoping these things so while Deo-S a very good revenger and lategame cleaner, its not like he is the only one, arguably he isnt even the best.


Summary: Both mons are incredibly good but given the overall powerlevel of OU at the moment they are nothing out of the ordinary. Because of that i dont think they deserve a bann.
 
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The fact that every one of the Deo forms has one(or two or three) stats that are out of this world means that it can do any job you give it effectively(excluding lolol deo-n). of course, the job has to be complimented by stats, but thats not the point. the fact that any of the deos have a stat thats 150+ and an incredible offense and support movepool means that they do any job you give them flawlessly/near flawlessly. this kind of efficiency is unnatural for any kind of metagame that isnt ubers. of course, this is only one way of looking at it. its the jobs they can do that make them broken. deo-d can run a deadly efficient hazards lead. deo-s can run screens, revenge killer, and hazards(albeit somewhat outclassed by deo-d). the pressure they put on the opponent is unreal. this is why I support the deos gettng the boot out of OU.

PS: while my deo-s argument may be a rehash, dont take it the wrong way please ^_^
 
I do not yet have an opinion of deo-d outside of the fact that SD megachomp ohkos it and does not have a terribly good swap in (outspeeds and ohko's all relevant fairies with edgequake, everything else is wrecked by outrage). Obviously, existance of a check/counter does not make a mon not broken, but that's literally the lump sum of my opinion of that thing. Also, CM/morning sun espeon hard counters it.

Deo-S, on the other hand, I know is broken from experience. It has the ability to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame without a single point of speed investment, meaning that it can fully invest in both offenses and be just fine. This is the only mon I know who can get away with this with no reprecutions. It can also do a bunch of other stuff like good ole duel screens and stuff. It can even get away with a defensive set with absurdly fast recovers, passable bulk, and a nice support movepool.

For the record, if I do participate in this suspect, it will primarily be to test duel screens and quick pass. I will comment if my opinions change on the deos but atm I do not feel strongly about either.
 
I do not yet have an opinion of deo-d outside of the fact that SD megachomp ohkos it and does not have a terribly good swap in (outspeeds and ohko's all relevant fairies with edgequake, everything else is wrecked by outrage). Obviously, existance of a check/counter does not make a mon not broken, but that's literally the lump sum of my opinion of that thing. Also, CM/morning sun espeon hard counters it.

Deo-S, on the other hand, I know is broken from experience. It has the ability to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame without a single point of speed investment, meaning that it can fully invest in both offenses and be just fine. This is the only mon I know who can get away with this with no reprecutions. It can also do a bunch of other stuff like good ole duel screens and stuff. It can even get away with a defensive set with absurdly fast recovers, passable bulk, and a nice support movepool.

For the record, if I do participate in this suspect, it will primarily be to test duel screens and quick pass. I will comment if my opinions change on the deos but atm I do not feel strongly about either.
THANK YOU! I've been digging through my team archive (the place I put teams that aren't viable anymore) looking for how my dragonite teams (I was obsessed with WP dragonite for the first few months of xy) kept rocks off the field. They all obviously had excadrill or a defogger, and a lot had priority taunt, but I vaguely remembered one of my favorite teams had something else specifically for deo, and calm mind espeon was what it was. That team sucks now because it carried gems like scarf infernape (cuz genesect was that annoying), but it made the archive, so it was at least viable for a while.

Now, to make sure my post actually has a point, I'm going to ask that we not discuss deo's (at least D's) counters. You can't have any success without having an answer to it, so we all know them, but that just proves how centralizing it is. The fact some of us have rehearsed strategies for when our icicle crashes fail to get a flinch (cuz that's the only way I've ever been able to keep rocks from getting on for the team I'm testing right now) says way too much. Sure people can always scream THUNDURUS! But just like swagplay, the question isn't whether there are counters, it's if we should be forced to use them
 
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