np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched

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pre-laddering thoughts n_n

I think that only Deoxys-S should be banned, because of the number of sets it can run. When facing a Deoxys-S, you need to consider the "hazards stacking" set, the screener set (by the way, this set is also the only reason baton pass chains are still powerful) and of course the Life Orb set. So, it goes without saying that predicting wrong can cost you the game. At turn 1, yes. Also, remember that a SR + 3 attacks is totally viable, which leads to even further risks of losing the game/an important pkmn.
As regards Defog, I think that this is not the right argument to justify DeoS presence in OU; no viable defog user can, in fact, outspeed it and actually removing the hazards from the field. Most DeoS also run Superpower, so that the Magic Coat users and most spinners have no chance to prevent the hazards setting, either (Superpower scores a OHKO on M-Absol and a 2HKO on Smeargle, taking Focus Sash into account. Also, it deals huge damage to Excadrill, which can no longer spin, considering rocky helmet damage).
At last, don't forget that a 252 HP / 252 Def+ DeoS is bulky enough to sponge strong hits and set hazards in front of powerful attackers.

On the other hand, Deoxys-D deserves to stay in OU. The only role it can perform is the hazards setter (please, don't even think about the screener and the recover + toxic set, they are not nearly as strong as the SR + Spikes set) so it is pretty easy to plan ahead and prevent it from setting hazards.
In this case, Defog users are pretty effective, since DeoD is pretty slow. Also, it usually doesn't run Superpower, so the aforementioned MCoat users and Spinners are very likely to remove the hazards from the field.
The last thing I would like to point out about DeoD is that many sweeper can set-up on it. M-Pinsir, M-CharX, NPThundurus and SDGarchomp are all good examples.

Oh, there's one last thing I would like to remind you. A suspect test is supposed to nerf any overpowered/dangerous pkmn or play style, not to remove them. So yeah, why ruining spikes stacking offense when it is not overpowered at all?
 
So I am going to try my hand at explaining why even a support mon can be considered broken, because a lot of people only think of mega offensive mons to be "broken" like mega kanga or mega blaziken. When in reality a support mon can make very many offensive mons just as threatening as mega kanga and it only needs 1-2 turns to accomplish that, those 2 turns are guaranteed with deo-s' amazing speed stat. So then the problem becomes not knowing which offensive mon they are going to turn into a god damn super hero, it could be dnite, charx, mega gyar, mega ttar, lando-i, manaphy, mega hera, etc... lets just say it isnt a small list.

So what deo-s is able to do as a support mon is turn a lot of mons into mons we would consider "broken" offenisvely, because I am sure we would all instantly ban charizard x if its defense and special defense just doubled lol, but that can be easily accomplished with deo-s as the lead. I only bring this up because I think the dual screens set is the one that is broken, I consider the revenge killing set to merely be the best revenge killer, which does not inherrently make it broken, but pair that with its amazing support classes and I think it would be hard to argue for it not being broken and not sounds insane.

As far as deo-d goes These pokes are ubers by their very nature and we always ban them...its time for them to go.
 
After playing 15 games on the suspect ladder I thought I'd drop my opinion on the suspects Deoxys-S. Like others in this thread I believe the offensive Stealth Rock Deoxys-S moveset is manageable but like we've all agreed all it takes is one extremely effective moveset in order to push it to 'broken' or Uber stature (i.e Choice Scarf Genesect). The Dual Screens moveset is in my opinion the one that offers the greatest support and is the hardest to stop. There isn't any Pokemon in the tier who is fast enough to prevent it from setting up at least one screen since it can easily use Taunt or Magic Coat. With Dual Screens support it becomes incredibly hard to stop the tiers setup sweepers because of their boosted defense. It's pretty easy to say you can just defog away the screens but Deoxys-S and -D are probably the tiers best hazard remover lures. Latios can come in on Dual Screen Deoxys-S and use Defog for sure, but then it's open to being Pursuit trapped by Aegislash, Bisharp, Tyranitar, or Scizor. Leaving Deoxys-S free to switch back in and setup screens again. Mandibuzz, Skarmory, and Zapdos? Easily taunted. The amount of support this Pokemon can offer is incredible and in my opinion it should be banned.
 

Bad Ass

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i feel like deoxys-s and deoxys-d further the problem that we have seen in a lot of tiers, and that is quick hazards that can only be removed at a difficult cost. it just amplifies the power of offense to a degree that it becomes VERY difficult to slow it down.
 
Klefki can do the same thing, at priority speed. deoS isnt the culprit youre looking for.
yeah klefki doesnt do the same things, not having access to taunt is game changing. Anything can come in and defog at will, the only slight deterrent would be a paralysis. Even then zapdos is still a prevalent defogger that shuts klefki down.

Thats the whole point too, is that if deo-s goes and klefki takes its place there is a nice balance and HO is still possible, just not broken, thats what nerfing is.
 

Nova

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Klefki can do the same thing, at priority speed. deoS isnt the culprit youre looking for.
Except Klefki does not have Stealth Rock, the most important entry hazard. It also does not have Taunt which is a critical move for Deoxys-S who has an extremely fast Taunt that is very useful to prevent opposing entry hazards from being set up. Lastly, Klefki pretty much only has one, maybe two sets both of which are support while Deoxy-S not only has the entry hazard and screens sets but a potent Life Orb set that makes him more unpredictable
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
So, I've done some laddering, and I think it's time for me to weigh in on the Deoxys formes.

Deo-S:
This, in my opinion, is much more broken than its defensive twin. It's versatility is unmatched. It has at least four different sets to run: Dual Screens, Rain Dance, Hazard Lead, and Revenge Killer. The first three sets are all very good, though others could easily take their place. Thundurus would work well with Prankster Rain Dance, Deoxys-Defense is a better hazard leader, and Klefki can do Dual Screens. The revenge killer set is where Deoxys-Speed truly shines. The other decent revenge killers in the game are CB Talonflame, ScarfChomp, and ScarfRakkion. Deo-S is stronger than each one of them, and is not locked on a single move.

244 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 239-282 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 196-232 (57.3 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 195-231 (57 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Deoxys-Speed heavily contributes to the decline of Choice Scarf, because every Choice Scarfer is slower than it, except for Terakkion, which is much weaker. When you add the fact that it has many other viable sets, it is clear: Deoxys-Speed must be banned.

Deo-D:
Deoxys-Defense is extremely good at what it does. I won't go over it in detail, because that would count as adding nothing of value to this thread. It is much less banworthy than the Speed forme, because it always has the same role. However, it is incredibly overcentralizing. Every team needs to either have a way of dealing with a +2 Bisharp (which there are very few of, especially on stall teams) or lose a Pokemon removing the hazards. Let's look at the support clause:
Support Clause said:
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
Deo-D fits that definition. It needs to be banned as well.
 
Deo-D / bisharp / Mmawile / Thundurus / landorus / Aegislash
This is a team I have faced several times already and it's just stupidly good. I'll speak purely from a balanced/offence perspective, though I would imagine stall would find the pressure too much, too. Such is the power of this team and similar ones that defogging or spinning often forces you to lose a Pokemon in the process (if you even get the chance) but if you don't remove the hazards mega Mmawile and bisharp can run rampant.
What Bad Ass said above really is the crux of the issue - reliable hazard support makes offensive teams much harder to deal with, and in an already offensive metagame it's just way too unhealthy IMO.
 

RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341
So, I've done some laddering, and I think it's time for me to weigh in on the Deoxys formes.

Deo-S:
This, in my opinion, is much more broken than its defensive twin. It's versatility is unmatched. It has at least four different sets to run: Dual Screens, Rain Dance, Hazard Lead, and Revenge Killer. The first three sets are all very good, though others could easily take their place. Thundurus would work well with Prankster Rain Dance, Deoxys-Defense is a better hazard leader, and Klefki can do Dual Screens. The revenge killer set is where Deoxys-Speed truly shines. The other decent revenge killers in the game are CB Talonflame, ScarfChomp, and ScarfRakkion. Deo-S is stronger than each one of them, and is not locked on a single move.

244 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 239-282 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 196-232 (57.3 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 195-231 (57 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Deoxys-Speed heavily contributes to the decline of Choice Scarf, because every Choice Scarfer is slower than it, except for Terakkion, which is much weaker. When you add the fact that it has many other viable sets, it is clear: Deoxys-Speed must be banned.

Deo-D:
Deoxys-Defense is extremely good at what it does. I won't go over it in detail, because that would count as adding nothing of value to this thread. It is much less banworthy than the Speed forme, because it always has the same role. However, it is incredibly overcentralizing. Every team needs to either have a way of dealing with a +2 Bisharp (which there are very few of, especially on stall teams) or lose a Pokemon removing the hazards. Let's look at the support clause:

Deo-D fits that definition. It needs to be banned as well.
Wait, why are you comparing Psycho Boost to BB, Outrage, and CC? All which are spammable unlike Psycho Boost, not to mention all of the other mons you have mentioned have dual stab and better typing overall which makes them much more efficient than Deo-S. Also Sash SD Chomp and Sash SD Terra or even standard LO (CB is viable for terrakion too) sets can clean the game after you have defeated anything faster than current base speed (Keldeo, Lati@s, Manectric Thundurus, and Greninja are the ones that stand out to Garchomp while only Lati@s, greninja, and Thunudrus for Terrakion's) which are not really that many.

The cleaner set is good, I'm not denying that, but LO Greninja, LO/Scarf/CB Terrakion, LO/Scarf Garchomp, Specs Keldeo, CB Talonflame, etc. there's a lot of mons who can clean the meta depending on the situation, but Deo-S only sands out for the speed and not power, as you implied, it is super-vulnerable to priority and priority is everywhere. It also doesn't have too much power on moves like Fire Punch, Knock off, and Superpower, only Psycho Boost really. The only real threatening set on Deo-S is the dual screen one.

LOL, why do people assume as soon as you see Deo-Sharp that Bisharp has automatically +2 or something must die to get hazards off? If the former part was true Bisharp would've been banned already and if the latter part was true then you haven't even played Gen 5 OU lol. Rapid Spin is a thing, and nothing can spinblock Exca. Not only that, but it's easy af to use HP Fighting/Fire on Latios and hit Bisharp on the switch or at least run SUB. You can also use WoW/Defog/Roost MEW and WHIRLWIND Skarm/Mandibuzz. So I don't know what you guys complain about, I use Deo-Sharp and only 4/10 matches I get my Bisharp to +2 without SD, all of them (sometimes because of sticky web but that's not that common) because the opponent was actually dumb enough to defog on my bisharp switch-in, and 50% of those times I was actually stopped by Quag, Mind Games, or something that can take a +2 Sucker punch (like greninja). Every other game either carried Rapid Spin, didn't use Defog (Cuz HO), or just didn't defog on my bisharp.

Also what do you mean stall can't handle +2 Bisharp? Whoever runs stall without quag is dumb af and even Mega Venusaur and Skarm can handle Bisharp.





And yes while I was laddering on the suspect test, I have seen Roar Mega Venusaur so you can't complain about Bisharp SD-ing on Mega Venu
 
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Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
Wait, why are you comparing Psycho Boost to BB, Outrage, and CC? All which are spammable unlike Psycho Boost, not to mention all of the other mons you have mentioned have dual stab and better typing overall which makes them much more efficient than Deo-S. Also Sash SD Chomp and Sash SD Terra or even standard LO (CB is viable for terrakion too) sets can clean the game after you have defeated anything faster than current base speed (Keldeo, Lati@s, Manectric Thundurus, and Greninja are the ones that stand out to Garchomp while only Lati@s, greninja, and Thunudrus for Terrakion's) which are not really that many.
Why are you mentioning any variant of Garchomp or Terrakion other than Scarf? I agree that they are more useful in general, but they are not revenge killers. Revenge killers don't need a spammable STAB, they need to hit once, hit hard, and get out. I perfectly agree that they have roles at which they are better than Deo-S, but those roles are not revenge killers.
The cleaner set is good, I'm not denying that, but LO Greninja, LO/Scarf/CB Terrakion, LO/Scarf Garchomp, Specs Keldeo, CB Talonflame, etc. there's a lot of mons who can clean the meta depending on the situation, but Deo-S only sands out for the speed and not power, as you implied, it is super-vulnerable to priority and priority is everywhere. It also doesn't have too much power on moves like Fire Punch, Knock off, and Superpower, only Psycho Boost really. The only real threatening set on Deo-S is the dual screen one.
Sure, plenty of other Pokemon can clean. All of those you mentioned do a good job at it. What you leave out it that Deoxys' speed means that it can hold an item such as Life Orb to boost its power while still outrunning everything. And how is it more vulnerable to priority than Greninja? The others you mentioned do have better bulk, but again, revenge killers need speed above all, then offensive power, and lastly defensive ability.
LOL, why do people assume as soon as you see Deo-Sharp that Bisharp has automatically +2 or something must die to get hazards off? If the former part was true Bisharp would've been banned already and if the latter part was true then you haven't even played Gen 5 OU lol. Rapid Spin is a thing, and nothing can spinblock Exca.
Actually, Air Balloon Aegislash does a great job at spinblocking Excadrill. Of course Exca can predict the switch and use Iron Head, but the Aegi player could anticipate that and simply kill the Excadrill.
Not only that, but it's easy af to use HP Fighting/Fire on Latios and hit Bisharp on the switch or at least run SUB. You can also use WoW/Defog/Roost MEW and WHIRLWIND Skarm/Mandibuzz.
The point of Bisharp is to make the opponent suffer for removing the hazards. Please note that on a HO team, whoever is out will oftern be able to simply KO the Defogger, or double switch to Bisharp. HP Fighting Lati@s have to contend with Sucker Punch mindgames, while I'm pretty sure that Substitute Lati@s isn't a thing.
So I don't know what you guys complain about, I use Deo-Sharp and only 4/10 matches I get my Bisharp to +2 without SD, 1 of them is because of Sticky Web and 3 of them because the opponent was actually dumb enough to defog on my bisharp switch-in, and 2/3 of those times I was actually stopped by Quag, Mind Games, or something that can take a +2 Sucker punch (like greninja). Every other game either carried Rapid Spin, didn't use Defog (Cuz HO), or just didn't defog on my bisharp.
I'm not arguing for Bisharp's brokenness, I'm arguing for Deo-D's. If there is no Defog, then obviously Bisharp didn't help much that match. However, either Air Balloon Aegi kept the hazards in play, or the opponent couldn't remove them in the first place. Deoxys-Defense is what is consistently putting in work. As for Greninja taking a +2 Sucker Punch:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 251-296 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Good luck with that. If the Sucker Punch doesn't kill it, Life Orb recoil will.
Also what do you mean stall can't handle +2 Bisharp? Whoever runs stall without quag is dumb af and even Mega Venusaur and Skarm can handle Bisharp.





And yes while I was laddering on the suspect test, I have seen Roar Mega Venusaur so you can't complain about Bisharp SD-ing on Mega Venu
Yes, stall can handle a +2 Bisharp, but it is quite difficult. Quagsire takes a decent chunk of health from Knock Off, and some Bisharp use Grass Knot to deal with it. Roar Mega Venu does work, but stall shouldn't be forced to use Roar on a Pokemon that already has 4mss (Giga Drain/Sleep Powder/Synthesis/Leech Seed/Sludge Bomb). Skarmory almost dies to a +2 Knock Off, and will always die with slightly more than SR prior damage.
 
Calm Mind+Morning Sun Espeon? Defensive Deoxys-S with Recover?

._.
CM + morning sun espeon served me quite well in the BP suspect test, thank you very much. As for defensive deo-s, it has better defensive stats and movepool then sableye, and it's speed gives it psudo prankster. Throw in pressure and you have a passable defensive mon.

Anyway, the point of mentioning defensive deo-s wasn't that it's its best set, but to say that it can pull it off decently well only because of it's speed.
 

Energy

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Deoxys-D: No Ban

Deoxys-D is not broken. Yes, Deoxys-D is a very good pokemon, but with the move Defog in addition to Sand Rush Excadrill in OU, most teams are prepared for it from the ground up. Yes Deoxys-D can Taunt most defoggers (Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Skarmory), but it doesn't stop them all... In addition, Deoxys-D needs a lot of support to be fully effective. Deoxys-D teams need to provide enough pressure to stop Defoggers, as well as Rapid Spin users. Deoxys-D + Bisharp hardly forces hazards up, Deoxys-D itself can do nothing to stop Excadrill from spinning. Furthermore, Latias/Latios + Keldeo is a pretty standard core that can handle +2 Bisharp just fine. Deoxys-D needs support by Bisharp and Aegislash to really stop hazards, and even so, Aegislash needs to watch out for Earthquake unless it has a balloon. Furthermore, Mega Blastoise is another pokemon that handles Deoxys-D fine, spinning with no drawback because it can handle Aegislash with Dark Pulse.

I am not arguing Deoxys-D is a bad pokemon. However, I do not believe it is a broken pokemon. Sand Rush Excadrill continues to rise in popularity, and thats always a nasty matchup for any Deoxys-D team. Furthermore, it needs a good amount of support to have maximum effect. I think Sinclair's old DeoSharp Team is a perfect example of this. Thundurus killed Mandibuzz and could Nasty Plot on it defogging and set up a sweep with Mega Lucario, Azumarill served the same purpose with Belly Drum. Excadrill was not as popular early XY, which explains the lack of an Aegislash. I also wanted to add from experiences during SPL I found Deoxys-D much more effective on the lower ladder then higher up where players are more prepared for it.

Deoxys-S: No Ban

Deoxys-S is also not broken. Although it gets almost every offensive move imaginable, without hazard support its sadly missing kills on things like Thundurus and Latios with LO Timid Ice Beam. Deoxys-S in my opinion is becoming increasingly worse as Mega Mawile increases in popularity. Mawile can easily come in on any move, even Hidden Power Fire fails to always 2HKO (252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO), and Mega Mawile almost always carries Sucker Punch. Furthermore, with max Special Attack Deoxys-S loses out on a guaranteed kill on defensive Tyranitar and always on Mega Tyranitar.

During stage 1 when Genesect was popular I thought Deoxys-S was broken because it just shut down Scarf Genesect... then people started using band to deal with it. As the metagame has developed people have found ways to deal with Deoxys-S, Assault Vest Azumarill, Mega Mawile, Aegislash, all do fine, and Aegislash finds itself consistently in top 5 in the usage statistics. Heck, Deoxys-S is basically a free switch in for Aegislash (even on Knock Off), which most offensive teams lack a safe switch in for. Finally, Deoxys-S has serious 4 Move Slot Syndrome, it can't run everything to deal with every threat. If it could have of every EV, and 5 moves, I'd say Ban...

I'd support a Deoxys-D ban before Deoxys-S, but I do not think either should be banned.
 

RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341
Why are you mentioning any variant of Garchomp or Terrakion other than Scarf? I agree that they are more useful in general, but they are not revenge killers. Revenge killers don't need a spammable STAB, they need to hit once, hit hard, and get out. I perfectly agree that they have roles at which they are better than Deo-S, but those roles are not revenge killers.


Sure, plenty of other Pokemon can clean. All of those you mentioned do a good job at it. What you leave out it that Deoxys' speed means that it can hold an item such as Life Orb to boost its power while still outrunning everything. And how is it more vulnerable to priority than Greninja? The others you mentioned do have better bulk, but again, revenge killers need speed above all, then offensive power, and lastly defensive ability.


Actually, Air Balloon Aegislash does a great job at spinblocking Excadrill. Of course Exca can predict the switch and use Iron Head, but the Aegi player could anticipate that and simply kill the Excadrill.


The point of Bisharp is to make the opponent suffer for removing the hazards. Please note that on a HO team, whoever is out will oftern be able to simply KO the Defogger, or double switch to Bisharp. HP Fighting Lati@s have to contend with Sucker Punch mindgames, while I'm pretty sure that Substitute Lati@s isn't a thing.


I'm not arguing for Bisharp's brokenness, I'm arguing for Deo-D's. If there is no Defog, then obviously Bisharp didn't help much that match. However, either Air Balloon Aegi kept the hazards in play, or the opponent couldn't remove them in the first place. Deoxys-Defense is what is consistently putting in work. As for Greninja taking a +2 Sucker Punch:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 251-296 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Good luck with that. If the Sucker Punch doesn't kill it, Life Orb recoil will.

Yes, stall can handle a +2 Bisharp, but it is quite difficult. Quagsire takes a decent chunk of health from Knock Off, and some Bisharp use Grass Knot to deal with it. Roar Mega Venu does work, but stall shouldn't be forced to use Roar on a Pokemon that already has 4mss (Giga Drain/Sleep Powder/Synthesis/Leech Seed/Sludge Bomb). Skarmory almost dies to a +2 Knock Off, and will always die with slightly more than SR prior damage.
Greninja outspeeds every non-scarfer in the tier bar Deo-S, which is something really good for a revenge killer, especially when it hits harder, I agree that Deo-S's main niche is outspeeding basically all scarfers, but a cleaner doesn't really hit-and-run, it just cleans with coverage and power, but you can't clean if you can't use 2 psycho boosts.

Greninja resits all Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak, the former being the most common priority, the middle one being one of the most powerful priority on a common pokemon, and the latter being on the most popular pokemon, it truly suffers from Talonflame's BB as much as Deo-S but that's about it. Deo-S is not only hit by all priority but it's also hit Super Effectively by 2.

True Air Balloon Aegi is a thing and it's really annoying, but Aegi switching on Exca is really really aggressive, when my RS is obvious I always Iron Head if I see an Aegi, but other than that it cannot be spinblocked what so ever.

True, but HP Fighting/Fire Lati@s can hit Bisharp on the switch, and Sub Lati@s is a thing actually just not that common, I used it successfully on a balanced team (Latias, it's hard to pull off Sub Latios on HO)

Yeah true, it puts pressure on the team, but for example, almost every single DeoSharp has Landorus and Thundurus, which Lati@s can easily come and Defog (Granted they have defog but it doesn't always OHKO and really rare) or predict the Bisharp switch and HP Fire. I have done it a lot of times since I'm a hardcore Balanced/Offensive player. Also, for Greninja, most Bisharp right now are Jolly simply to outspeed Adamant Mamo and stuff. I use Jolly so it's more like

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 229-269 (80 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I usually get min rolls ;-;

Wait ... Grass Knot Bisharp? Why? Teammates are for that, I don't think such gimmick is worth it.

Also how does skarm die to a +2 knock off?

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 168-199 (50.2 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And that was Adamant, remember you can always Roost and Knock off becomes weaker after the first time, you are also LO and first time you are prolly hurt by Rocky Helmet so you get worn down easy.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 175-208 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Same with Quag

Yeah it's true what you said about Mega Venu.
 
This is the first time I've made a serious attempt at the suspect ladder, and I'm not sure if I'll be able to reach the required COIL score, but I'll give my thoughts based on what I've seen after 26 battles.

Many teams are running Deoxys-S, and some of the sets I've seen include Dual Screens + Light Clay, SR + 3 attacks, SR + Spikes + Taunt + 1 attack, LO 4 attacks, Damp Rock Rain Dance and even a Deoxys-S with 4 support moves and no Taunt, which didn't fare too well. The most threatening have been the Dual Screens set paired with 1 or more dangerous setup sweepers like Mega Pinsir, and LO offensive sets for their unpredictability; the LO set is in my experience the most difficult to handle, as it is very unpredictable (Psycho Boost and Superpower/Low Kick are mandatory, but the other two moves are wide open), and the options for checking it (without knowing its exact moves) are fairly limited, particularly as Choice Scarf isn't the most ideal item for Keldeo/Terrakion/Lati@s etc. to run. If I qualify, I'll definitely vote to ban it.

I haven't run into any Deoxys-D teams yet, so I'll reserve commenting on that until later, although from experience with both using and facing it on the normal OU ladder, I'm on the fence about banning it. It deserves to be suspect tested although IMO it's definitely not the strongest S-Tier pokemon.
 
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HBK

Subtlety is my middle name
Deoxys-D: No Ban

Deoxys-D is not broken. Yes, Deoxys-D is a very good pokemon, but with the move Defog in addition to Sand Rush Excadrill in OU, most teams are prepared for it from the ground up. Yes Deoxys-D can Taunt most defoggers (Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Skarmory), but it doesn't stop them all... In addition, Deoxys-D needs a lot of support to be fully effective. Deoxys-D teams need to provide enough pressure to stop Defoggers, as well as Rapid Spin users. Deoxys-D + Bisharp hardly forces hazards up, Deoxys-D itself can do nothing to stop Excadrill from spinning. Furthermore, Latias/Latios + Keldeo is a pretty standard core that can handle +2 Bisharp just fine. Deoxys-D needs support by Bisharp and Aegislash to really stop hazards, and even so, Aegislash needs to watch out for Earthquake unless it has a balloon. Furthermore, Mega Blastoise is another pokemon that handles Deoxys-D fine, spinning with no drawback because it can handle Aegislash with Dark Pulse.

I am not arguing Deoxys-D is a bad pokemon. However, I do not believe it is a broken pokemon. Sand Rush Excadrill continues to rise in popularity, and thats always a nasty matchup for any Deoxys-D team. Furthermore, it needs a good amount of support to have maximum effect. I think Sinclair's old DeoSharp Team is a perfect example of this. Thundurus killed Mandibuzz and could Nasty Plot on it defogging and set up a sweep with Mega Lucario, Azumarill served the same purpose with Belly Drum. Excadrill was not as popular early XY, which explains the lack of an Aegislash. I also wanted to add from experiences during SPL I found Deoxys-D much more effective on the lower ladder then higher up where players are more prepared for it.

Deoxys-S: No Ban

Deoxys-S is also not broken. Although it gets almost every offensive move imaginable, without hazard support its sadly missing kills on things like Thundurus and Latios with LO Timid Ice Beam. Deoxys-S in my opinion is becoming increasingly worse as Mega Mawile increases in popularity. Mawile can easily come in on any move, even Hidden Power Fire fails to always 2HKO (252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO), and Mega Mawile almost always carries Sucker Punch. Furthermore, with max Special Attack Deoxys-S loses out on a guaranteed kill on defensive Tyranitar and always on Mega Tyranitar.

During stage 1 when Genesect was popular I thought Deoxys-S was broken because it just shut down Scarf Genesect... then people started using band to deal with it. As the metagame has developed people have found ways to deal with Deoxys-S, Assault Vest Azumarill, Mega Mawile, Aegislash, all do fine, and Aegislash finds itself consistently in top 5 in the usage statistics. Heck, Deoxys-S is basically a free switch in for Aegislash (even on Knock Off), which most offensive teams lack a safe switch in for. Finally, Deoxys-S has serious 4 Move Slot Syndrome, it can't run everything to deal with every threat. If it could have of every EV, and 5 moves, I'd say Ban...

I'd support a Deoxys-D ban before Deoxys-S, but I do not think either should be banned.
That Sand Rush Excadrill terrorizes Hyper Offensive teams is irrelevant; you cannot expect every one to use it for the sole purpose of defeating such teams. And it can, to an extent, be played around. It cannot even guarantee that Deoxys-D will not be able to do it's job; it succumbs to the same mind games as the Mold Breaker variants; the player using a Deoxys-D can predict a Rapid Spin and switch to a ghost (generally Aegislash, maybe even Gengar) or predict an Earthquake and stay in to set up more hazards/switch out to a flying type/levitator pokemon. Using Keldeo may allow the Latis to clear the field without fear of a Bisharp sweep but it might give some other pokemon the opportunity to set up. Deoxys-D is quite durable and since it doesn't need to rely on a Focus Sash, it need not die in the first few turns like most dedicated leads. A smart player might save it so that it can come on late to set up SR again after his opponent has Defogged and this just might decide the match (like if the opponent has a weakened Thundurus or Charizard left). I know that Magic Coat is a very popular move on Deoxys-D but the move set that I normally use is: Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt and Thunder Wave. So if any Latios/Latias were to come in, confident that my Bisharp cannot sweep because of a certain Keldeo, and Defog, I could just paralyze them, re-set up my hazards as they Draco Meteor me (that's what most of them do) and Taunt them as they try to Defog again. Even after my Deoxys-D is dead, my other pokemon will kill them before they can do anything. Blastoise is prone to the same mind games as Excadrill albeit to a lesser extent as Aegislash doesn't possess a Super Effective move to hit it with. If played correctly, Aegislash won't die without weakening the opposing Blastoise to the extent that it cannot spin before it dies. If that seems too risky, Deoxys-D can always switch out only to come in later to do it's job when Blastoise is neutralized. The Deoxys-D user can also take advantage of the opponents eagerness to spin with double switches or by threatening to set up on it.

Yes, Deoxys-D may seem more effective against players placed at the lower end of the ladder but that can be said for any pokemon/strategy. Players who are higher on the ladder tend to be more prepared for anything in general which probably has something to do with them being high on the ladder in the first place.


As for Deoxys-S, it might not hit like a truck right off the bat but no one is dumb enough to do that. Why were Garchomp and Salamence banned in DPP when they could be instantly killed at turn 1 with an Ice Shard ? It is most deadly as a late game sweeper, killing off weakened pokemon with it's pace and coverage. It's diverse move pool only makes it harder to stop. It doesn't matter if it has 4 Move Slot Syndrome; apart from Ice beam and, maybe, Psycho Boost, you don't really know which moves it has. And by the time you figure it out, it might be too late. Mawile might be popular but not every one is going to use it to the extent that Deoxys-S will no longer seem broken. Plus, Deoxys-S does most of it's work late game when Mawile is most likely dead. As a standard lead, it might be outclassed by Deoxys-D but when it comes to setting up Reflect and Light Screen, there is no pokemon that can compete with it. As such it forms the basis for many Baton Pass and Offensive teams. And this is why they should both be banned.
 

Nova

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I've been playing a bit on the suspect ladder with a pretty standard DeoSharp HO team so I wanted to give some of my thoughts on Deoxys-D. The main issue that I feel makes Deoxys-D banworthy is that he creates a very formulaic and mechanical playstyle that puts more emphasis on team matchup than actual skill in order to win games. This is akin to Baton Pass which was banned partly because it was a very formulaic playstyle where people could just a simple flowchart and complete the steps over and over again to routinely win games. If you didn't have one of the few dedicated checks to Baton Pass teams in your team, you already lost the game no matter what plays you made. Deo-D HO suffers from this same imbalance, although to a slightly lesser degree. Deo-D HO also operates on a basic formula that is almost a step by step as well. Instead of setting up boosts and baton passing around your team to eventually sweep, you set up your entry hazards while preventing your opponent from getting their's up, send in Bisharp on the predicted Defog for the Defiant boost and then proceed to smash through with your 5 offensive threats. Deoxys-D's entry hazards just increase the power of the already offensive threats in the current metagame and create a ton of pressure that most teams cannot handle.

You can argue that Deoxys-D is not banworthy because it requires a lot of support. Really, it only really needs Bisharp and Aegislash who are already top tier threats that can thrive in OU on non HO teams. The remaining members are usually just 3 different offensive threats and you can be really flexible with these picking from things like Thundurus, Greninja, Keldeo, Landorus, Scizor, Azumarill, Charizard, Gyarados, etc. I don't see how the argument that Deo-D requires a lot of support is somehow hindering to how effective it is; you have the flexibility to choose pretty much any viable offensive Pokemon on a Deo-D HO team. Another potential knock on Deo-D is that it is a very linear Pokemon. If you see him in team preview, you already know what he's going to do so you won't be surprised by it and should be able to find a way to deal with him. However, even though it only does one thing really, it does that thing really damn well which makes him all the more difficult to stop. If you know what he's going to do but have nothing to stop him from doing that, then who cares if he is a linear mon that only has limited options.

I do agree that Deo-D has a few checks, a lot more than full Baton Pass teams did. One bad matchup for Deo-D HO is Sand Rush Excadrill teams who can get rid of the hazards with Drill who also handles Bisharp and Aegislash without Balloon and outspeeds the things on Deo-D HO. However, every suspect really has some checks no matter how broken, so it's tough to say that Deoxys-D is not banworthy just because it has a few bad matchups when it has many more advantageous ones.

With the amount of pressure it can apply and matchup advantages, Deo-D serves as a team archetype that is not only low risk and high reward, but also formulaic enough that it prioritizes team matchup over actual playmaking, the same reasons why full Baton Pass was banned.
 

Valmanway

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As a user of Deoxys-D, I can safely that he is indeed one of the most broken defensive Pokemon in the tier, and while I'll deeply miss him when if he gets banned, I honestly wouldn't feel that broken up about it. I made some points in an earlier post in the OU Viability Rankings list on VR, so I guess I'll just bring that up again:

Valmanway said:
While it's true that removing the hazards it lays down is somewhat easy nowadays, Deoxys-D can potentially outrun and Taunt some Defoggers, such as Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and Mega Scizor. Besides, it just walls so many things with relative ease that it isn't even funny. Just the Specially Defensive set alone can take on LO Landorus without Calm Mind, Specs Keldeo, Deoxys-S, Scarf Garchomp, Specs Latios, Scarf Terrakion, and Greninja without Dark Pulse, can mess up almost every lead except Oblivious Mamoswine and Taunt Deoxys-S with its own Taunt, wrecks most walls such as Chansey, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Mega Venusaur, and Latias, and can also take on a good chunk of slow setup sweepers, such as Clefable, Mega Scizor without Bug Bite or U-turn, Azumarill, and Breloom. It's true that Bisharp, Mega Mawile, Gengar, and Aegislash kind of destroy it, but it just takes on way too many significant threats to be considered anything other than S-Rank, imo.

*Edit
Just remembered that it has Magic Coat, so it can actually screw over Deoxys-S lead when it goes for Taunt and can reflect Stealth Rock against Mamoswine, as well as Toxic, Roar, and other field hazard moves from various other Pokemon. So yeah.
To summarize that quote, Deoxys-D can shit all over stall teams, can go toe-to-toe with so many sweepers in OU, and can easily set up hazards, as well as prevent the opponent from setting up theirs.

I don't really use Deoxys-S, so I can't say whether or not it should be banned, but I can wholeheartedly say that Deoxys-D really does deserve to be suspected. Maybe not banned (my bias talking, blech), but suspected for sure.
 

Clone

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Nachos, someone asked for the B-value for this suspect test, so I edited the OP to include it and a table of how many battles it takes to achieve reqs vs. the player's GXE. In the future, feel free to just copy/paste that section.
Thanks Antar, I asked around for this, and I never got a straight answer. You putting this up has helped.

Anyways, Ill get on topic and throw in my personal experience and views on the Deos. Here it goes.

So far, Ive been laddering on the suspect ladder with no problems. Ive played about 30 games, and have gotten to the top 30. Yes, I know none of this means anything right now, as its still early and most of the regs havent begun their ladder journey yet. However, about 2/5 teams I face have either Deo forme, with the most popular being Deo S on rain and Deo S on BP, and Deo D on Deosharp. Now, the team Im using isnt prepared (and I say that loosely. Very loosely), but I can still play around them. Ive played a few people who used them who I know are good (See: reyscarface and a few other alts that Ive recognized from previous req ID threads). Now, Ive both won and lost. Ive won by simply playing around Deo D and his posse, but that Deo forme has also caused me the most losses on the ladder. Deo S, however, Ive found to be more managable. This is because I like to run Banded Smogonbird(TM). Most Deo-S's are leads, and Im able to predict the lead correctly and KO with Talon. Now, if I didnt have Banded Talon, things would be different. Much different.

Throughout my time on the normal ladder, where I use a variety of teams, Deo-S is a shit. It outspeeds everything bar Scarf Terrakion and SR Excadrill, and has three sets it can run: Dual Screens, SR + 3 Attacks, and LO Cleaner (Fuck the hazard lead, that is shit with Doe-D being a thing). All three of these sets are almost perfect at what they do. Dual screens lets a set up sweeper eat up hits while it boosts in your face before sweeping you, while the SR +3 attacks set can set up the rocks with his ability to force switches (See: anything that is threatened by Psycho Boost/Ice Beam). The last set, the LO Cleaner, is fucking scary. it comes in when you no longer have priority on the field and when SR Exca is dead. From there, it outspeeds everything and can choose the appropriate move. Unless you have something that ist OHKOed by it (which is rare, considering this is late game), its GG. This in itself is what makes it OP. When you are unable to hit an opposing Pokemon even when you still have a Jolly Scarfchomp on your team, and that Poke can switch moves at will, you are at a severe disadvantage, and frankly, this makes that said Poke OP. Scarfchomp is the fastest relevant Scarf user (Bar Terrakion), and even hes outsped by Deo S and easily OHKOed. That, in my opinion, is not healthy for the meta and why Ill vote to ban him when if I make reqs.

Deo-D, on the other hand, is an entirely different story. Jukain's post on page 3 sums it up quite nicely: The hazards he lays make HO overcentralizing. Once again, my vote is to ban him.
 
I got to 2700 COIL recently, so I'm now going to share my thoughts on each suspect, outside of what is hopefully obvious and what has already been said.

A common misconception that people seem to have about the standard Deoxys-D on offensive teams is that it "guarantees" two layers of hazards and that it's not unlikely for it to get up more. In reality, it's often forced into plenty of 50/50 scenarios that can lead to it only getting a single layer up. As a generic example involving a powerful attacker with either high speed or access to priority: after Aegislash hits it with Shadow Ball, Deoxys has to get lucky with Red Card (if it's even running that -- otherwise it's KOed by Shadow Sneak) and hope that something slower than it is brought out. Similarly, if Deoxys is faced with something like Mawile, it's forced into another 50/50 scenario where it usually has to use Taunt unless it wants to risk losing one or more team members to Swords Dance + Sucker Punch. Yet another example is against Gengar, where Deoxys has to watch out for both Shadow Ball and Taunt. Speaking of Taunt, if Deoxys doesn't have Mental Herb or Magic Coat, faster Taunt users force it out. A few Pokemon including Landorus (Sheer Force stops Red Card, for those who may not know), LO Bisharp, Mega Heracross, and CB Tyranitar can limit Deoxys to one layer of hazards regardless of its item.

This isn't to say that Deoxys-D doesn't deserve to be banned, however. First of all, other than the previously mentioned Pokemon (Landorus and co.), there isn't really much that can reliably OHKO it or otherwise limit it to a single layer of hazards outside of random niche stuff like Crawdaunt. More importantly, if the opponent doesn't have a Pokemon that fits one of the "50/50 scenario" descriptions listed above (see: most stall teams and many balanced teams), Deoxys will get up multiple layers of hazards due to Taunt and its ridiculous bulk, and it may even be able to come back later in the match if the hazards are removed. On that note, Defog exists and is effective against Deoxys-D teams in theory, but it's less helpful in practice when a +2 Bisharp can OHKO or nearly OHKO every relevant Defog user after Stealth Rock and easily take down multiple Pokemon afterwards. Rapid Spin from the likes of Excadrill does better, but even that can be at least temporarily blocked by an Air Balloon Aegislash, which is not immediately threatened by any relevant spinner other than the uncommon Blastoise. Additionally, the opponent using up a turn to remove the hazards can potentially give a powerful set-up sweeper (which Deoxys-D is almost always paired with) a free turn.

On top of all this, the Pokemon that can threaten a lead Deoxys-D aren't even guaranteed to stop it from getting up multiple layers of hazards if it runs something unconventional, or if the Deoxys-D user simply switches it out or anti-leads with something else. For example, I used a Deoxys-D with Superpower and the appropriate EVs for much of the suspect ladder and was able to get a free KO against almost everyone who led against me with Bisharp.

tl;dr: Almost nothing can OHKO Deoxys-D or otherwise stop it from setting up hazards, it has an incredibly easy time doing so against most stall and balanced teams (and is still pretty effective at it against offensive teams) and thus makes sweeping substantially easier for its teammates, the only "support" it needs is from other top tier Pokemon, and it has the movepool and stats to do its one job extremely well.

In comparison, I think Deoxys-S is absolutely insane, though most of what I would want to say about it has already been said. Its versatility isn't the reason it should be banned -- it's the fact that every set it commonly runs is amazing, particularly the offensive set and the dual screens set. The ability to outspeed anything else that relies on speed even after a boost in conjunction with a wide movepool, a Life Orb boost, and an extremely powerful STAB move in Psycho Boost makes it pretty much a staple on any offensive team that doesn't use Deoxys-D. It does have problems against stall teams and against things like AV Azumarill and Steel-types, but the ability to safely revenge kill anything it wants with the exception of a few priority users more than makes up for this. On the other hand, Deoxys-S is the best screener in the game, bar none. Its ludicrous speed, acceptable bulk when backed by the screens, and Taunt let it facilitate the setup of a sweeper or a Baton Pass chain with incredible ease.

tl;dr: Deoxys-S is too good at everything it does, specifically cleaning/revenge killing and setting up screens.
 
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Srn

5/6 Doctors agree Russian Roulette is totally safe
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I got to 2700 COIL recently, so I'm now going to share my thoughts on each suspect, outside of what is hopefully obvious and what has already been said.

A common misconception that people seem to have about the standard Deoxys-D on offensive teams is that it "guarantees" two layers of hazards and that it's not unlikely for it to get up more. In reality, it's often forced into plenty of 50/50 scenarios that can lead to it only getting a single layer up. As a generic example involving a powerful attacker with either high speed or access to priority: after Aegislash hits it with Shadow Ball, Deoxys has to get lucky with Red Card (if it's even running that -- otherwise it's KOed by Shadow Sneak) and hope that something slower than it is brought out. Similarly, if Deoxys is faced with something like Mawile, it's forced into another 50/50 scenario where it usually has to use Taunt unless it wants to risk losing one or more team members to Swords Dance + Sucker Punch. Yet another example is against Gengar, where Deoxys has to watch out for both Shadow Ball and Taunt. Speaking of Taunt, if Deoxys doesn't have Mental Herb or Magic Coat, faster Taunt users force it out. A few Pokemon including Landorus (Sheer Force stops Red Card, for those who may not know), LO Bisharp, Mega Heracross, and CB Tyranitar can limit Deoxys to one layer of hazards regardless of its item.

This isn't to say that Deoxys-D doesn't deserve to be banned, however. First of all, other than the previously mentioned Pokemon (Landorus and co.), there isn't really much that can reliably OHKO it or otherwise limit it to a single layer of hazards outside of random niche stuff like Crawdaunt. More importantly, if the opponent doesn't have a Pokemon that fits one of the "50/50 scenario" descriptions listed above (see: most stall teams and many balanced teams), Deoxys will get up multiple layers of hazards due to Taunt and its ridiculous bulk, and it may even be able to come back later in the match if the hazards are removed. On that note, Defog exists and is effective against Deoxys-D teams in theory, but it's less helpful in practice when a +2 Bisharp can OHKO or nearly OHKO every relevant Defog user and easily take down multiple Pokemon. Rapid Spin from the likes of Excadrill does better, but even that can be at least temporarily blocked by an Air Balloon Aegislash, which is not immediately threatened by any relevant spinner other than the uncommon Blastoise. Additionally, the opponent using up a turn to remove the hazards can potentially give a powerful set-up sweeper (which Deoxys-D is almost always paired with) a free turn.

On top of all this, the Pokemon that can threaten a lead Deoxys-D aren't even guaranteed to stop it from getting up multiple layers of hazards if it runs something unconventional, or if the Deoxys-D user simply switches it out or anti-leads with something else. For example, I used a Deoxys-D with Superpower and the appropriate EVs for much of the suspect ladder and was able to get a free KO against almost everyone who led against me with Bisharp.

tl;dr: Almost nothing can OHKO Deoxys-D or otherwise stop it from setting up hazards, it has an incredibly easy time doing so against most stall and balanced teams (and is still pretty effective at it against offensive teams) and thus makes sweeping substantially easier for its teammates, the only "support" it needs is from other top tier Pokemon, and it has the movepool and stats to do its one job extremely well.

In comparison, I think Deoxys-S is absolutely insane, though most of what I would want to say about it has already been said. Its versatility isn't the reason it should be banned -- it's the fact that every set it commonly runs is amazing, particularly the offensive set and the dual screens set. The ability to outspeed anything else that relies on speed even after a boost in conjunction with a wide movepool, a Life Orb boost, and an extremely powerful STAB move in Psycho Boost makes it pretty much a staple on any offensive team that doesn't use Deoxys-D. It does have problems against stall teams and against things like AV Azumarill and Steel-types, but the ability to safely revenge kill anything it wants with the exception of a few priority users more than makes up for this. On the other hand, Deoxys-S is the best screener in the game, bar none. Its ludicrous speed, acceptable bulk when backed by the screens, and Taunt let it facilitate the setup of a sweeper or a Baton Pass chain with incredible ease.

tl;dr: Deoxys-S is too good at everything it does, specifically cleaning/revenge killing and setting up screens.
I can totally agree taht superpower on deo-d is fantastic :I Honestly, I've just accepted the fact that against decent players, deo-d really won't be getting up more than 1 layer of hazards while preventing any set up. I run taunt/t-wave/rocks/superpower, and honestly, I really don't miss spikes at all. The situations in which i actually got up spikes were far less common than a scenario in which superpower actually came in handy.
Superpower is also pretty useful to 2hko excadrill that think they can just come in and spam rapid spin or something, people like to do that.

And deo-s is dumb get that shit out we all know that :I
 

Genesis7

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I decided to try this suspect test, it is my first one and I am very close to reqs at the time of typing. A lot of the teams I have built use Deo-D as a spikestacker to support my HO and I can say without a doubt that if you do not have a competent Defogger, you will be taking a ton on all switch-ins and it will make an enormous difference throughout the battle. Is this unhealthy for the meta? In my opinion, yes and no; obviously if a Pokemon like Deo-D can cause so much hurt so easily you should bring a Defogger/Spinner but is that really a bad thing? Not in my eyes, I don't think having a good mon like Latios or Excadrill on your team who can do a lot more than just get rid of hazards is a bad thing and I think that all teams should pack a way to get rid of hazards regardless of the conclusion of this test, it would be different if we were suspecting heavy stall (no, I'm not saying I think we should suspect stall just an example) because it was forcing people to run Trick Gothitelle because the only niche that Goth has in this meta is to Trick so it would be taking up a spot on the team and some games would not be used at all. In terms of Deo-S, I sincerely don't think that this guy is much of a threat either, he cannot touch Aegislash and isn't able to switch into most attacks; he is the best revenge killer right now but I don't think that he has quite the power that Pokemon we have banned in the past have had. I decided to try out Deo-S for this test as well and my conclusion is still the same, great Pokemon, but centralizing? No.
 
I'm not quite sure about Deo-S yet as i haven't faced or used the fabled Dual Screens Set yet. (but without it I would say that its borderline but not quite broken)

However I am quite sure that Deo-D is not broken at all (albeit quite good) due to the fact that any decently built offensive team is able to limit it to only Stealth Rock (unless the Deo-D player gets insanely lucky on red card and you just happen to have something on your offense team that can't deal 40% to Deo-D, in which case your doing offense wrong), Stall hates hazards in general and any hazard setter can use them as set up bait (Roserade, Shuckle, Smeargle, Klefki, etc). Balance has some issues with it but once again can usually deal enough damage to limit it to SR or SR and one layer of spikes. Deo-D is also complete set up bait for BellyJet Azumarill. If you don't believe that offense can limit to to SR by 2HKO'ing with faster mons (Or OHKO'ing with slower) here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 291-346 (95.7 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D in Sun: 210-247 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 420-495 (138.1 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (2 layers but now you have a +6 azumarrill)
If Deo D taunts on turn one an azumarill then it loses to CB with only one layer of hazards
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Red card will switch you out to something that is most likely faster, if not then why do you have two slower pokemon on offense? and even if so thats a 1 in 5 shot)

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if it goes for hazards first and you SD
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 327-385 (107.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thats still one layer
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 212-252 (69.7 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 84-98 (27.6 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if SD then a 50% chance to limit it to SR
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 281-331 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 307-367 (100.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 237-280 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Adamant OHKO's
Red card may be annoying but after that one good hit you should be able to finish it with anything else you have on offense.

Not to mention the fact that hazards are easier than ever to get rid of thanks to Defog and Excadrill, at least one of which is present on nearly every team.
 
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Id argue that cb ttar is the best dedidcated pursuit trapper but anyway....

In response to Giometry, it is important to note that deo-d commonly carries t-wave/taunt for that exact reason(offensive teams) it isnt setup bait for anything barring thundurus and garchomp, and nasty plot thundurus is rare af. Everything either gets taunted/twaved and then has to allow at least 1 layer of hazards up giving the team deo-d is on sooo much offensive momentum, even more so than 2 layers of hazards. And its also just so versatile it is able to outspeed and OHKO bisharp, it can use mirror coat to OHKO aegislash. That is just too much rolled into one pokemon to be considered balanced, or healthy for a competitive metagame.
If deo-d was only able to set hazards I would agree that it isnt broken, but it can straight OHKO offensive threats, and if it doesnt kill them it can hinder them harshly with a twave. Leaving us only with NP thundy and SD garchomp, which by definition is overcentralizing the meta. Ban Deo-d

And yeah widetomato start over on a new alt, I believe your gxe needs to be AT LEAST 67 to achieve 2700 coil and should be at 70 if you want to be safe
 

alexwolf

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Muk said:
A common misconception that people seem to have about the standard Deoxys-D on offensive teams is that it "guarantees" two layers of hazards and that it's not unlikely for it to get up more. In reality, it's often forced into plenty of 50/50 scenarios that can lead to it only getting a single layer up. As a generic example involving a powerful attacker with either high speed or access to priority: after Aegislash hits it with Shadow Ball, Deoxys has to get lucky with Red Card (if it's even running that -- otherwise it's KOed by Shadow Sneak) and hope that something slower than it is brought out. Similarly, if Deoxys is faced with something like Mawile, it's forced into another 50/50 scenario where it usually has to use Taunt unless it wants to risk losing one or more team members to Swords Dance + Sucker Punch. Yet another example is against Gengar, where Deoxys has to watch out for both Shadow Ball and Taunt. Speaking of Taunt, if Deoxys doesn't have Mental Herb or Magic Coat, faster Taunt users force it out. A few Pokemon including Landorus (Sheer Force stops Red Card, for those who may not know), LO Bisharp, Mega Heracross, and CB Tyranitar can limit Deoxys to one layer of hazards regardless of its item.
Deo-D can avoid the 2HKO from a lot of Pokemon that could usually 2HKO it, such as Landorus and tank Aegislash, but why people on the ladder just insist on using 252 Spe+ is beyond me (talking about non-Superpower sets, Superpower sets obviously don't run max Speed). For example, a 252 HP / 68 SpD / 188 Spe spread with a Calm nature allows Deo-D to outspeed anything up to Jolly Breloom and Bisharp (the fastest Pokemon that Deo-D wants to outspeed, everything else between 263 and max Speed is crippled by Thunder Wave anyway), while getting 2HKOed by Landorus's Earth Power only 5.9% of the time, and avoiding the 2HKO from Aegislash's combo of Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak (sets with a 252 / 252 SpA spread) most of the time. In general, there is a lot of room for customization on Deo-D's lead sets, which is part of what makes it broken. Different EV spreads, items, and moves, all on a single set, can change Deo-D's checks so much, which is a testament of its power. Few (if any) Pokemon have only one set, almost always lead, and are so unpredictable at the same time.
 
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