np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched

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252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 256-303 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And you have some chance to ohko with Psycho Boost.
Oh,and this isn't even the defensive version (252/240+).
LOLWUT. 252 hp deoS with life orb??????
 
Deo-S: Imo its even less bannworthy than Deo-D because its not centralizing the meta as much as his brother. Its Hazard Set is outclassed by Deo-D, Dual Screens are awesome but see very little use outside of BP and they wouldnt be that good without BP because normal quick pass is far easier to counter than BP, even with screens up.
Its revengekilling set is good, I used it myself on a team for a long time but its not even close to beeing broken. Its frailness in combination with its bad typing and Life Orb severly limit its potential as it will die very fast especially with SR on the field. Switching it into attacks is almost impossible and even if you manage to switch it into something, you can only do it once cause it takes 50+% of damage from basicly everything. The fact that its forced to switch out after using its main attack once makes this frailness even worse. Priority is another big problem for it especially on things its supposed to stop like Dragonite or Pinsir. That beeing said, it isnt even that reliable at revenging common threats.

244 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 273-321 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

only 50% chance even against an offensive set, it needs prior damage to stop it reliably and even more against a defensive set.

12 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 203-239 (61.1 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even after rocks it fails to ohko.

244 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 261-308 (96.3 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 211-250 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

With rocks up it falls to Quickattack and without rocks on the opponents side it doesnt kill reliably.

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 240-283 (99.5 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Almost no chance to stop Dragonite.

12 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 307-364 (89.7 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Even here it needs prior damage.

Dont even have to talk about Bisharp or Mawile here. Scarf Chomp/Terrakion are more reliable at stoping these things so while Deo-S a very good revenger and lategame cleaner, its not like he is the only one, arguably he isnt even the best.


Summary: Both mons are incredibly good but given the overall powerlevel of OU at the moment they are nothing out of the ordinary. Because of that i dont think they deserve a bann.
K, I'm just going to focus on the Deoxys-Speed part of what you have to say. As for the hazards set, I agree, Deo D does it better, not that that means that Deo S sucks at the Hazards role. In fact, I am in the camp where if Deo D gets banned (which I expect), but Deo S stays (which I find absurd, but it can happen I guess), Deo S can just as easily fill the role. As mentioned earlier by someone (I believe alexwolf ), Deo S doesnt need speed to do the whole hazard set thing. It already outspeeds Base 130's without any speed itself, so it can very easily run some much-needed bulk as the only taunters at that point that can beat it are Prankster mons, Mega Aero and Mega Zam, of which the latter two aren't exactly hugely prevalent in OU. It really isnt that different from Deo D in that regard.

Now, you say that DeoScreens only common use is for BP which is just flat-out wrong. DeoScreens HO has been a fairly common playstyle for quite some time now. It commonly uses set-up mons or other very powerful Pokemon to take advantage of their boosted bulk and smash through the opposing team. The results can be very devastating very quickly when you have things like Stallbreak Zard or SD Diggersby smashing behind screens. Deoscreens on its own is broken, in my opinion, but, again as stated by others, Deo S has other sets that leave you guessing and picking, and since others have said that, I won't elaborate further.

Now onto the revenge killing. Aside from the fact that your DNite calc has it at +1 and with a Band, and that you say that Deo S cant kill reliably against a lot of threats, but then you post a calc of Mega Pinsir that, by your definition, doesn't kill reliably (and I'd say that 75% on the psycho boost is reliable, especially against pinsir's 25%, but w/e), you didn't go into all of the offensive threats it potentially demolishes. Keldeo, Thundurus, Landorus (both forms), Azumarill, Bisharp (Deo S can play some serious mind games with Bish), Greninja, Mega Venu, Mega Pinsir, Scarfchomp, SD Chomp, MegaZards... and thats only S and A+ Rank. Its a nightmare for offensive teams when it follows suit. To be a revenge killer, you dont have to OHKO 100% of the time. Especially things like Zard, Dos, or TTar where they can very easily take in enough damage during set-up, priority, and especially in Dos and Zard's case, hazards that can push them over the edge. And Zard is even more prone because of recoil... Deo S (and D, but all I have to say on that has been said by others), in my honest opinion, is broken, without a doubt. From the mindgames, the diversity, the potential power, all of that, it is broken.
 
K, I'm just going to focus on the Deoxys-Speed part of what you have to say. As for the hazards set, I agree, Deo D does it better, not that that means that Deo S sucks at the Hazards role. In fact, I am in the camp where if Deo D gets banned (which I expect), but Deo S stays (which I find absurd, but it can happen I guess), Deo S can just as easily fill the role. As mentioned earlier by someone (I believe alexwolf ), Deo S doesnt need speed to do the whole hazard set thing. It already outspeeds Base 130's without any speed itself, so it can very easily run some much-needed bulk as the only taunters at that point that can beat it are Prankster mons, Mega Aero and Mega Zam, of which the latter two aren't exactly hugely prevalent in OU. It really isnt that different from Deo D in that regard.

Now, you say that DeoScreens only common use is for BP which is just flat-out wrong. DeoScreens HO has been a fairly common playstyle for quite some time now. It commonly uses set-up mons or other very powerful Pokemon to take advantage of their boosted bulk and smash through the opposing team. The results can be very devastating very quickly when you have things like Stallbreak Zard or SD Diggersby smashing behind screens. Deoscreens on its own is broken, in my opinion, but, again as stated by others, Deo S has other sets that leave you guessing and picking, and since others have said that, I won't elaborate further.

Now onto the revenge killing. Aside from the fact that your DNite calc has it at +1 and with a Band, and that you say that Deo S cant kill reliably against a lot of threats, but then you post a calc of Mega Pinsir that, by your definition, doesn't kill reliably (and I'd say that 75% on the psycho boost is reliable, especially against pinsir's 25%, but w/e), you didn't go into all of the offensive threats it potentially demolishes. Keldeo, Thundurus, Landorus (both forms), Azumarill, Bisharp (Deo S can play some serious mind games with Bish), Greninja, Mega Venu, Mega Pinsir, Scarfchomp, SD Chomp, MegaZards... and thats only S and A+ Rank. Its a nightmare for offensive teams when it follows suit. To be a revenge killer, you dont have to OHKO 100% of the time. Especially things like Zard, Dos, or TTar where they can very easily take in enough damage during set-up, priority, and especially in Dos and Zard's case, hazards that can push them over the edge. And Zard is even more prone because of recoil... Deo S (and D, but all I have to say on that has been said by others), in my honest opinion, is broken, without a doubt. From the mindgames, the diversity, the potential power, all of that, it is broken.

I agree with what you say about the hazard set, banning Deo-D and leaving Deo-S wont make much sense as Deo-S will just take over that role.

Regarding Dual Screen HO i can only say that I havent seen them that much so far and I play the ladder on a regular basis, dont know much about tournaments though. However as I said in my last post, those teams arent as strong as BP with screens since their sweepers can simply get roared out, at least from my limited experience with them.

The Dnite calc is a blunder on my side, didnt realise that CB is the standard set in the calc sry for that :(
I am not denying that Deo-S can revenge lots of stuff very well, thats the reason why its such a good revengekiller. I just wanted to mention that there are also quite a few relevant things it CANT revenge so easily especially among the set up sweepers which are, at least for me, the main reason to use such a fast mon for RK. For Keldeo, Thundy, Lando etc you dont need Deo-S or some scarfer, there are more than enough things that outspeed and ohko those things. In my eyes Deo-S does have quite a few flaws as a revenger so i dont consider that set to be broken, the hazard set is atm outclassed and the screen set, from my experience, rare. Because of that I dont realy see a reason for a ban, imo it fits well into the current meta.
 
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The commonly used "definition of uber" typically comes iirc from Jumpman's 2008 post entitled "Portrait of an Uber"; it can be found at http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/portrait-of-an-uber.43566/. The definitions of an Uber, from Jumpman's post are (if you do not wish to look, however, I advise you to do, it is very informative):


As under the Offensive Characteristic:
"A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."

As under the Defensive Characteristic:
"A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame."

Finally, under the Support Characteristic:
"A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep."

However, there is little consensus (from what I can see) about what is "significant", or "little effort"/"consistent"

Other possible definitions:

Versatility (the ability to defeat all counters, but this is suspect)
Over-centralization (you MUST run this Pokemon in order to defeat this other 'Mon)

PLEASE CHIME IN!

EDIT: (from X-Act, and as this post relates as another condition of the offensive characteristic, which is not really being tested here): A Pokemon's power is the ratio of the amount of damage it deals on average by the amount of damage it is dealt in common battling conditions.
 
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I'd say versatility isn't a good deciding factor, but over-centralization is if it is really over-centralizing. I'd call deo-s a non-uber over offensive as it can't sweep, but can revenge kill. It will be forced out, tho. Under support, it is a fast and tactile duel screener, taunter, and statuser. I think this is possibly uber, but only if it really is so powerful as an offensive force, as deo-s is susceptible to prankster and twave like everyone else. As for deo-d, it does its spiking and sr duties well, but it's sr and spikes can be defogged as easily and others. It just does its job well. I don't think it is any more over-centralizing than hazards as a whole. Therefore I don't think it an uber. Anything I missed?
 
Not like the most other user I'll try to explain some Countersor Checks to Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D 'cause in my opinion they're annoying, they're strong but far away from Ubers.

Deoxys-S:

From the start of the match you know whats this thing is. If it's send out on turn 1 you can bet that it's a support set with most likely Rocks, Spikes, Dual Screens. Yeah there are a few variations w/o dual screens and like Psycho Boost and taunt but thats really nothing we can't deal with. So what do we do against this type of set? There are a few answers:

1. Defog: Nearly every person runs a defogger on his team so it shouldn't be too difficult to see the answer to this but i know what you think "what if it carries taunt?" then switch into another member of your team which carries U-turn or Volt Switch. It can't stay in all day long.

2. Prankster: Since Swagplay is banned to Ubers they're completely forgotten but here they are in a new (old) kind of role. Priority taunt is shutting the support set completely down. Of course it can switch out and in again but then you either have your own hazards already, you killed another poke or deal lots of damage to Deoxys-S itself and kill it the turn after with a priority move.

3. Focus Sashed Breloom: Since Grass Pokemon are immune to Spore this is a little bit trickier but I've never seen a Venusaur or Mandibuzz on the same team as Deoxys-S. You lead with it and start with a Bullet Seed. If it goes for taunt You're allright and if it goes for Rocks never mind every Pokemon with Sturdy can do that too. If it goes for Reflect you can just Fire Bullet Seeds again and Spore the next thing that comes in which guarantees you to waste a few turns of that.

4. Magic Coater or Magic Bouncer: It's obvious what they do. Not covering that dual screen set completely though.

5. Knock Off user: The Scald of this Gen. Nearly every team has one of them. You can cripple the screen set with removing the clay and you most likely can oneshot every other set.

6: TALONFLAME: Enough said.

Offensive set:

This one is most of the time a late game sweeper, revenge killer or something like that. But it's nearly never sent out on the first turn. (not looking at you Focus Sash one :P)

1. Super Effective Priority Users: Due to the lack of Priority except for E-Speed (which isn't that great) you should severely damage or kill it

2. Again looking at you Talonflame: Obvious

3. Every Focus Sasher: If no Rocks are up you live your hit and revenge kill it with your attack

4. Chansey or Blissey: Chansey is Stopping it with no effort and Blissey is able to survive 2 Hits (Attack drop from SP included) and heal up with the Move of your Choice.

5. Aegislash: All your enemy's attack do nearly nothing and you retaliate back with super effective Ghost type attacks

Deoxys-D:

Same options like Deoxys-Speed except for the offensive set (forget Psycho Boost and add Seismic Toss and Recover as a possibility)

1. Defog: read above

2. Prankster: read above

3. Magic Coater and Magic Bouncer: read above --> only Problem is Seismic Toss

4. Choice Band Crawdaunt: One shotting it with Knock Off and trust me nothing wants to switch in this Monster

5. Focus Sashed Breloom: You have to play differently with this one. Rock Tomb your foe. If he used Taund you're fine and can switch out or do sth else. If he used a support move you can outspeed him next turn and put him to sleep. Then you should be able to kill it easily.


I'm going to say it again they're not too strong for the OU metagame.

Still it's just my opinion and i don't want to annoy somebody.
 
Ok so I am on the suspect ladder using Deo-s with dual screens (which i consider to be broken). I have 2 replays to show, one opponent used HO and the other stall. In both cases Deo-S was able to give me a buffer without fail which allowed the rest of my team to do whatever they wanted with minimum consequences. The HO match (yes his team was not amazing) has me setting up screens and using them for Suicune to calm mind under relative safety. It takes all of their offensive force (Absol and Azumarill at max attack!) to break through but this exposes the team and lets me break them. Later on they counterattack but a max bulk Deo-S was too good and he could not stop me screening and therefore winning. Without Deo-S I would have been overwhelmed and lose.

The second match turned into a full blown stall match, but again Deo-S was what made me win. He was able to reliably set up screens which i passed again to Suicune. This let him stand up to Amoonguss and using pressure drain the pp of clear smog while not caring about giga drain. Therefore the opponent was forced to forfeit. Normally if I fully invest in bulk I expect to be out-speeded but Deo-S was always much faster than anything else. It really is like a free choice scalf. Therefore once Sableye was taken out nothing could prevent Deo-S from doing its job without fail.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-134158849

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-134170144

So basically Deo-S can't be stopped screening whether you use HO or stall. It will always complete some of its job and even if it can't I can always troll with knock off or Psycho-boost. This thing is too much for the meta to handle, ban it. And ban Deo-D as well who can in theory do the exact same job. Yes he is not fast but he is so bulky to compensate so again stopping him is too much hard work. I will try to get some replays of Deo-D to prove this later.
 
Ok so I am on the suspect ladder using Deo-s with dual screens (which i consider to be broken). I have 2 replays to show, one opponent used HO and the other stall. In both cases Deo-S was able to give me a buffer without fail which allowed the rest of my team to do whatever they wanted with minimum consequences. The HO match (yes his team was not amazing) has me setting up screens and using them for Suicune to calm mind under relative safety. It takes all of their offensive force (Absol and Azumarill at max attack!) to break through but this exposes the team and lets me break them. Later on they counterattack but a max bulk Deo-S was too good and he could not stop me screening and therefore winning. Without Deo-S I would have been overwhelmed and lose.

The second match turned into a full blown stall match, but again Deo-S was what made me win. He was able to reliably set up screens which i passed again to Suicune. This let him stand up to Amoonguss and using pressure drain the pp of clear smog while not caring about giga drain. Therefore the opponent was forced to forfeit. Normally if I fully invest in bulk I expect to be out-speeded but Deo-S was always much faster than anything else. It really is like a free choice scalf. Therefore once Sableye was taken out nothing could prevent Deo-S from doing its job without fail.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-134158849

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-134170144

So basically Deo-S can't be stopped screening whether you use HO or stall. It will always complete some of its job and even if it can't I can always troll with knock off or Psycho-boost. This thing is too much for the meta to handle, ban it. And ban Deo-D as well who can in theory do the exact same job. Yes he is not fast but he is so bulky to compensate so again stopping him is too much hard work. I will try to get some replays of Deo-D to prove this later.
So you built a team around deoS and without deoS your team sucks. I'm sorry but that fails to prove to me that it's broken, it just proves that your team doesnt function without it.
 
Disclaimer: I ladder on both Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown. I do not claim to be well-experienced in the higher ladder on Pokemon Showdown.

In find the versatility argument extremely flawed. We keep justifying past bans such as the Genesect ban of XY, telling ourselves that banning Pokemon that can perform multiple successful movesets will ultimately form a balanced metagame, only to suspect something else that is, "too versatile." My case and point being, that if we ban Deoxys Speed, it is only a matter of time before something else (ie. Klefki, should it learn Stealth Rock in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire) can fill its shoes flawlessly. Problems such as BP, DeoSharp, and pressure to remove hazards/screens due to Defiant users will still be prevalent. I believe that as a whole, Pokemon is a game of luck and skill, and should be treated as such. Should you predict incorrectly, against any prevalent threat in OU, consequences will be met. I have no problem with the potential ban of either Deoxys form, however, I must ask, what is next to ban? Thundurus, which has the ability to get past each of its counters? The unidentifiable Charizard?

As a whole, we must ask, what type of metagame do we want?
 

alexwolf

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Disclaimer: I ladder on both Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown. I do not claim to be well-experienced in the higher ladder on Pokemon Showdown.

In find the versatility argument extremely flawed. We keep justifying past bans such as the Genesect ban of XY, telling ourselves that banning Pokemon that can perform multiple successful movesets will ultimately form a balanced metagame, only to suspect something else that is, "too versatile." My case and point being, that if we ban Deoxys Speed, it is only a matter of time before something else (ie. Klefki, should it learn Stealth Rock in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire) can fill its shoes flawlessly. Problems such as BP, DeoSharp, and pressure to remove hazards/screens due to Defiant users will still be prevalent. I believe that as a whole, Pokemon is a game of luck and skill, and should be treated as such. Should you predict incorrectly, against any prevalent threat in OU, consequences will be met. I have no problem with the potential ban of either Deoxys form, however, I must ask, what is next to ban? Thundurus, which has the ability to get past each of its counters? The unidentifiable Charizard?

As a whole, we must ask, what type of metagame do we want?
Whatever proves to be broken. We can't know when we will stop, but this shouldn't prevent us from going on.

On to your examples, you mentioned Klefki, BP, DeoSharp, and pressure to remove hazards/screens due to Defiant users, all of which will still be prevalent according to you. I can't talk about SR Kelfki because it doesn't exist. Baton Pass teams are still very viable and strong playstyles, but not universally broken. Some people believe they still are, some don't, it's too early to tell. However, the banning of Deo-S will definitely make the BP playstyle a bit less effective, as Deo-S is by far the best dual screener in OU. DeoSharp won't exist anymore with Deo-D and Deo-S in OU, so i don't know what you are talking about. If you are talking about other dual hazard setters used in conjunction with Bisharp to punish the use of Defog, none of the other dual hazard setters are even close to Deo-D's or Deo-S's level (namely Skarmory, Forretress, Shuckle, and Smeargle). Finally, pressure to remove hazards and screens will be way less if those hazards and screens are not so easy to set up in the first place, or if the Pokemon that sets them up can't do a ton of other things flawlessly as well (see DS Azelf, a Pokemon that you almost always know it's a Dual Screen set if it leads).

The metagame right now is heavily skewed towards offense, and Deo-S and Deo-S play a big role in this situation. When all the support that offensive teams need is provided so easily and so reliably, it's no wonder why offensive teams are so easy to build and win with, with the second part being the most important. Personally, i don't like how offensive-centric the metagame has become and this is why i will be voting to ban Deo-S and Deo-D. Not to mention that even if you like seeing so much offense, Deo-D and Deo-S create so many 50-50 situations in games of offense vs offense, to the point where it becomes stupid, as variety on the supporting aspect of offensive teams is being stifled by the Deos. If you use other Pokemon to support your offensive team that face competition from the Deos (which happens most of the cases), then you will be using an inferior team. But if you use the Deos, then you will inevitably get into those stupid 50-50 that happen all the time in games of offense vs offense. Either way, the situation isn't pretty. You either have to deal with using an outclassed team or constant 50-50 situations when using offensive teams, which shouldn't happen in a balanced metagame.
 
Disclaimer: I ladder on both Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown. I do not claim to be well-experienced in the higher ladder on Pokemon Showdown.

In find the versatility argument extremely flawed. We keep justifying past bans such as the Genesect ban of XY, telling ourselves that banning Pokemon that can perform multiple successful movesets will ultimately form a balanced metagame, only to suspect something else that is, "too versatile." My case and point being, that if we ban Deoxys Speed, it is only a matter of time before something else (ie. Klefki, should it learn Stealth Rock in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire) can fill its shoes flawlessly. Problems such as BP, DeoSharp, and pressure to remove hazards/screens due to Defiant users will still be prevalent. I believe that as a whole, Pokemon is a game of luck and skill, and should be treated as such. Should you predict incorrectly, against any prevalent threat in OU, consequences will be met. I have no problem with the potential ban of either Deoxys form, however, I must ask, what is next to ban? Thundurus, which has the ability to get past each of its counters? The unidentifiable Charizard?

As a whole, we must ask, what type of metagame do we want?
I agree that the versatility argument is flawed. That being said, one flawed argument does not make a mon not broken (gosh we'd never get anything done here if that were the case). In genesect's case, the scarf set was broken, even without taking into account the rest of the sets. The mere threat of scarf genesect was what allowed genesect's other, relatively mediocre sets to succeed.

In deo-s's case, it's not so much that it's versatility makes it broken, but that it's overkill speed allows it to do whatever it wants. Being able to outspeed the entire meta, even scarfers, without a choice scarf is pretty broken. Outspeeding base 130's with no speed investment while still having decent other stats is broken. The excellent movepool simply allows it to take advantage of this overkill speed in any manner it wishes, it's not what's breaking it.
 
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RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341
tbh, as alexwolf said, Deo-D is not broken in any way.

Anything with a higher base speed of 90 and can set up literally has the potential to sweep your team.

Char X for example

Turn 1: You DD he sets up Rocks

Turn 2: You DD he taunts

Turn 3:

+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 348-409 (117.9 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 348-409 (114.4 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It literally becomes set-up fodder to anything faster or un-expected like a surprise Mega T-tar first turn DD. Deo-D does what it does good, but not THAT good, people are just over-reacting tbh. It has great movepool support (T-wave, SR, Spikes, Screens, Taunt, S-Toss, Magic coat, etc.) that make it fantastic on HO and Balanced, but it also has access to Toxic and Recover which could be combined with Magic Coat and S-Toss/hazards/T-wave to be a really good stall. Not only that but it can also be a great anti-meta / anti-stall mon with Sub, Toxic, Recover/Taunt, and S-Toss.

Deo-D easily fits on any team, but it's usefulness for every single style of battling makes it even IMO, it's good with HO, Stall, Balanced, everything. It's not broken in any format tbh either.

I would vote Not Ban

Deo-S, on the other hand, is a beast, the hazard setting set is good yes, but that's not what makes it broken.

Deoxys-Speed @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SAtk / 100 Spd
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Agility
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 236 HP / 40 Atk / 104 Def / 108 SDef / 20 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Roost

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 176 SAtk / 44 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SAtk / 30 SDef
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge


That was a team I literally just crammed together with NO synergy what so ever and easily laddered to 1900 with no effort at all [btw this was before the BP nerf too lol). That's how fucking good the dual screens set, revenge killer set and sash lead sets are meh really, sash lead you can only get 2 hazards max but Deo-D can get ALL if you play it right, while revenge killing sets are also meh because Deo-S cannot sweep because it lacks power on coverage moves (Fire Punch and Superpower particularly) there are better ES users, and the only real merit is the power of Psycho boost, not to mention priority is a bitch for it, and priority defines the meta right now. Back to the point, Dual screen Deo-S is the real fucking threat here, I agree to the point Ninja Charizard said about the dual Screen set being amazing. It's what makes the meta ugly, if you lake carefully at my team, I had a standard DD Gyara and common Bulky SD Mega Scizor, but with weird Keldeo set and 2 double dancers, I literally only lost like 12 times, this team was really hard to stop, it has gimmicky sets that you would think they would never work. But Deo-D glues the team fantastically.

And as soon as this things gets screens (which is super easy with timid 252) it has better bulk than Deo-D

Calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S through Reflect: 242-285 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 291-346 (95.7 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

LOL

The only things stopping this from getting both screens are like Talonflame and Aegislash (with Shadow Sneak + Shadow Ball)

TL;DR

Deo-D isn't ban worthy tbh, SO WHAT if it gurantees 2+ hazards? Defog and RS are a thing and almost no team comes without them, if you really think Bisharp is a problem, just run something like a Trick Flame Orb Sub HP Fighting Latios and be real and stop whining, DeoSharp is a legit strategy just like Skarm/Chansey/Quag core, both cores are fucking annoying but not really broken, you can deal with them.

Deo-S's sets of Revenge Killer and Sash Lead are fine in the meta, but fucking dual screen is fucking good, it's so good it's stupidly good that any team with any shit set up moves and Deo-S can easily make it to 1600s even if a noob which knows the most basic things about pokemon was using it. Deo-S's set of Dual Screens is a glue for every team, it's not just any glue to a team, it's a not a super glue either, it's an Uber glue.
 
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Chou Toshio

Over9000
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There's no official definition-- tiering is subjective, and the best way to understand it is to get familiar with the older decisions, the older literature, the older discussions.
As a whole, we must ask, what type of metagame do we want?
According to the survey data, we want:

-A meta that ranks on the offensive-defensive scale at 6.3 (current XY is 7.09)
-A meta that can achieve 7-8 mean score in "balance" (current ~6.1)
-A meta where players are confident that skill wins out a majority of the time
-A meta that diversity is such that the game is not overly-centralized
-A meta that that is not SO over diverse with extremely powerful threats that team match-up and gimmicks determine most games

^All of the above variables are measurable with surveys. It is indeed certain that Pokemon that are over-diverse in set potential are harmful for the meta, especially if the differences in sets are such that mis-guessing on one turn can have a major impact on the outcome of the game.


Regardless, the main argument for Deo-S is not diversity in my opinion-- it's having a Speed that breaks the dimensions of the game and too much coverage. Being able outspeed the best scarf mons (of whom there are barely any this gen) and freely switch between Electric/Ice/Fighting/Dark/Psychic/Fire coverage is just too much; and it's speed is so insane that the diversity of potential EV spreads in bulk or offensive stats is also too much to handle. The fact that it is such a near-flawless support mon only makes the situation worse for a Pokemon that is already really bad for the meta.
 
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Disclaimer: I ladder on both Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown. I do not claim to be well-experienced in the higher ladder on Pokemon Showdown.

In find the versatility argument extremely flawed. We keep justifying past bans such as the Genesect ban of XY, telling ourselves that banning Pokemon that can perform multiple successful movesets will ultimately form a balanced metagame, only to suspect something else that is, "too versatile." My case and point being, that if we ban Deoxys Speed, it is only a matter of time before something else (ie. Klefki, should it learn Stealth Rock in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire) can fill its shoes flawlessly. Problems such as BP, DeoSharp, and pressure to remove hazards/screens due to Defiant users will still be prevalent. I believe that as a whole, Pokemon is a game of luck and skill, and should be treated as such. Should you predict incorrectly, against any prevalent threat in OU, consequences will be met. I have no problem with the potential ban of either Deoxys form, however, I must ask, what is next to ban? Thundurus, which has the ability to get past each of its counters? The unidentifiable Charizard?

As a whole, we must ask, what type of metagame do we want?
Versatility isn't broken by itself. Or Smeargle would be banned, obviously.

Hydreigon in gen 5 was uncounterable with its coverage. But you know when a Hydreigon appears, it's probably about to use Draco meteor or whatever hits the thing you have out. You can dodge this by going to your Heatran, to take Hydreigon's most spammy moves. Then you go to some flying type to see if it took your Heatran bait and went for the Superpower/Earthquake. Now you know if Heatran is a good counter to that Hydreigon.

Part of why Genesect's versatility was an argument for its ban was it was so hard to scout. Most of the time it just hit you with a u-turn and switched back out, which basically told you jack shit, since u-turn is on every one of its sets. Well, no, u-turn wasn't on its boosting sets, but if you scout on those, the Genesect boosts on you, and it's a bit too late to learn it's a boosting set if you wait for it to set up on you.

And that brings me to why Deoxys-S has the more unhealthy type of versatility. So a Deoxys-S leads in front of your Crawdaunt*. You could switch to see if its an attacking set with super power but then it sets up hazards or screens. You could blast it with Knock Off to stop it from setting up on you only to find it outspeeds and super powers. It uses the threat of its attacking set to help it set up, on top of its 180 speed and support movepool. I don't know if deoxys' versatility is unhealthy enough to go to ubers but versatility can be broken if it's abused right.

*Before you say that leading Deoxys-S is information, it's really not. Even attacking Deoxys-S will lead because it bluffs other sets, potentially giving set up time and/or easy KOs, they lead nearly all of the time against me.
 
tbh, as alexwolf said, Deo-D is not broken in any way.
Anything with a higher base speed of 90 and can set up literally has the potential to sweep your team.

Char X for example

Turn 1: You DD he sets up Rocks

Turn 2: You DD he taunts

Turn 3:

+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 348-409 (117.9 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 348-409 (114.4 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And what happens if he taunts turn 1 and has a red card? He'll set up rocks with ease and will make you waste turns, thus gaining momentum in the game as you are forced to bring in hazard removal.
 
A prediction with the banning of Deo-S, if it goes (which it should), then XZard is free from it's most reliable revenge killer. I'm sure we'll be seeing more Scarf usage but then XZard may start running Jolly for Jolly Scarfed Excadrill, Landorus-T, Kyurem-B, etc. The ones that are left to actually take it down are Garchomp and Terrakion, which can easily be taken advantage of with team support since they get locked into moves which have common resists/immunities.

tbh, as alexwolf said, Deo-D is not broken in any way.

Anything with a higher base speed of 90 and can set up literally has the potential to sweep your team.

Char X for example

Turn 1: You DD he sets up Rocks

Turn 2: You DD he taunts

Turn 3:

+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 348-409 (117.9 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 348-409 (114.4 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I too find Deo-D to be overrated setup fodder but this is a very bad example. Deo-D often carries Thunder Wave. You'll end up with two layers of hazards on your side and a crippled Charizard. Some things (off the top of my head) that do set up on it or limit it's hazards to only SR are NP Thundurus, Knock Off/CM Landorus, SD Garchomp, Mega Heracross, and Diggersby. But putting in Xzard is just asking to lose your wincon without even limiting hazards. Xzard is also forced to run Jolly to outspeed Deo-D which means it loses out on the benefits of running the bulky DD set.
 
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I was about to say that deoxys-d has pretty similar bulk to pokemon like mew thanks to its HP (and fully defensive mew can be 2HKO'd be super effective STAB attacks from strong attackers), but then I remembered it has cosmic power. However, cosmic power seems like a waste of a moveslot, as it seems to suffer the four-move syndrome to me. (Hazards, recovery, then a fourth move to do damage.) What makes deoxys-d powerful is the way it interacts with the rest of its team. For example, anyone who relies on defog would suddenly be facing a +2 defiant bisharp, who could have pursuit or sucker punch; quagsire and nothing else is almost essential in order to not take major damage once a defensive pokemon uses defog. (Once I was actually defeated by a bisharp with grass knot specifically for quagsire, lol.) Defoggers like latias or mew will always risk sucker punch or pursuit, and deoxys-d has the power to repeatedly set up hazards to introduce more risk. Latias's dual STABs can't really touch bisharp, so predicting a switch wouldn't help too much. (Maybe latios with thunderbolt could stand some chance?) If hazards are not removed, a switching game could end the opponent, and the opponent would be pressured not to make switching predictions due to the near guaranteed multiple layers of hazards. In theory, deoxys-d seems pretty powerful to me, and even if it's been underwhelming in practice against me since I have defog + quagsire, that would be bias, plus I always risk a pursuit from bisharp.

On the other hand, deoxys-s with hazards seems to be more geared towards dealing with hyper offensive; it has the speed it needs to outspeed even scarf users, and can set up guaranteed hazards before the opponent moves (and sucker punch won't work on hazards). However, the difference from deoxys-d is that it cannot reliably repeat its set-up of hazards. Thus deoxys-s with hazards seems to function best with strong offensive partners with enough momentum to force switches and discourage wasting a turn to defog/spin.
Offensive deoxys-s could pose a threat, but from my experience, it can be walled easily even by blissey when it has superpower. Again, its main power lies in outspeeding more offensive frail threats, although priority somewhat hinders this offensive variant. (I tried using an offensive deoxys-s back in the first suspect, but it kept dying; I might have been using it wrong though.)
Dual screens deoxys-s bypasses the risk of sucker punch, and also provides guaranteed support for more dangerous sweepers to set-up or survive more to kill more. Again, this poses a threat to more offensive teams. In addition, at this point, versatility makes it difficult to predict, and one wrong move could put the opponent at a great advantage.

In summary, deoxys-d seems to be able to handle offensive teams, and with teamwork defensive teams. Deoxys-s is mostly good against offensive teams.
From my stall point of view, I am on the fence for deoxys-d, and don't really feel like deoxys-s should be banned. However, I could see why other playstyles would want deoxys-s banned.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
Deo-D easily fits on any team, but it's usefulness for every single style of battling makes it even IMO, it's good with HO, Stall, Balanced, everything. It's not broken in any format tbh either.
Deoxys-D technically works on most play-styles, but it's misleading to construe that banality to mean that it affects every style evenly. Offense teams generally don't have issues killing it, since they generally carry a fast sweeper that is able to limit it to a single hazard (e.g. NP Thundy, SD Chomp, etc.). Stall, on the other hand, has to squirm while it easily sets up SR + 3 layers much of the time.
 

Killua kun

Pkmn/HxH
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Uhm this suspect it will decide the fate of the spikestaking offence. My opinion about deod is the following: should not be ban! Currently in the metagame is one of the most reliable setter of hazard almost always followed by ghost and defiant users, however after his work from suicide leads, latias and latios roaming the defogger may remove them in any case due to their basic speed, 112 and also at the entrance to bisharp at + 2atk you always manages to eliminate with pokemon like conkeldurr and keldeo used enormously in offense and balance.



Deoxys-s is a pokemon that can have roles ranging from standard revengekiller, the setter screens with light bulky clay, simple setter from spikestaking. Him know who owns a 180 base speed, this means that there is no pokemon faster than him in the metagame ou, even fastest pokemon scarfed. Unlike deod, it can't be stopped, and when it starts to come into revengekilling, none manages to be affected before safely, however can easily be revengekill by various talonflame, quick attack of mpinsir. But another not always play this pokemon can become difficult to manage. Then when I did the first suspect, i stay from his ban.
 
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I do not yet have an opinion of deo-d outside of the fact that SD megachomp ohkos it and does not have a terribly good swap in (outspeeds and ohko's all relevant fairies with edgequake, everything else is wrecked by outrage). Obviously, existance of a check/counter does not make a mon not broken, but that's literally the lump sum of my opinion of that thing. Also, CM/morning sun espeon hard counters it.

Deo-S, on the other hand, I know is broken from experience. It has the ability to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame without a single point of speed investment, meaning that it can fully invest in both offenses and be just fine. This is the only mon I know who can get away with this with no reprecutions. It can also do a bunch of other stuff like good ole duel screens and stuff. It can even get away with a defensive set with absurdly fast recovers, passable bulk, and a nice support movepool.

For the record, if I do participate in this suspect, it will primarily be to test duel screens and quick pass. I will comment if my opinions change on the deos but atm I do not feel strongly about either.
Calm Mind+Morning Sun Espeon? Defensive Deoxys-S with Recover?

._.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
My case and point being, that if we ban Deoxys Speed, it is only a matter of time before something else (ie. Klefki, should it learn Stealth Rock in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire) can fill its shoes flawlessly.
The thing is, all of these "deo replacements" all have a flaw or two that makes using them worse than if you just used the appropriate deo.
Klefki? Better typing and prankster, but no taunt or magic coat and no offensive presence so is relatively one-dimensional. Azelf? Roughly the same bulk as deo-s except nowhere near as fast (though 115 is still good), only has SR instead of both SR and spikes, and also has a great offensive movepool but is lacking some things like superpower. Cresselia? No hazards, no taunt, very little offensive presence, and has weather-reliant recovery. In pretty much every single way, the deos are simply better than any other option so nothing else gets used.
 
I honestly think they both deserve the ban, just because HO hazards stakes got the same brokeness they got in BW, and Defog isn't that advantage everyone initially thought (DeoSharp anyone? Though Braviary is cooler x.x)

Also, Deoxys-D got enough bulk and speed to guarantee the opponent doesnt statup on him (MegaPinsir, MegaGyarados, MegaMawile, Diggersby are examples) and to put at least one or two hazards before death. He should do also a "phazer" role with Red Card, entering on a boosted move (if full life) and phazing a +1Dragonite as stupid example.
On the other side, Deoxys-S can have also a bulky set that can take many more hits (max hp max def rocky helmet is quite common nowadays) that helps him to set-up, with a 4th random offensive move in order to kill someone (Bisharp/Greninja w/Spower, almost anyone get several damages from Psycho Boost, Ice beam in order to kill chomps-landos etc), and we don't have to forget the LO 3 atks+sr (or 4-atks) Deo-S set, that can outspeed scarfchomp (lol such a revengekiller without item-priority boost? broken imo) and got enough firepower to make some kills, and a huge movepool to mess up things also for stuff like stalls (knock off - taunt - psycho boost are enough fo this)

in short, they both should be banned
(thinkin about Skarmory/Klefki/Azelf/Froslass/Shuckle/Mamoswine/other fo spikes stackin/dualscreen HO/suicideleads, even without Custap Berry)
 
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A prediction with the banning of Deo-S, if it goes (which it should), then XZard is free from it's most reliable revenge killer. I'm sure we'll be seeing more Scarf usage but then XZard may start running Jolly for Jolly Scarfed Excadrill, Landorus-T, Kyurem-B, etc. The ones that are left to actually take it down are Garchomp and Terrakion, which can easily be taken advantage of with team support since they get locked into moves which have common resists/immunities.
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Then if it goes and zardX becomes overpowered we can just ban it next

Also I find that the doesharp matchup isn't that favored against stall.
Deos sets up rocks+spikes you eventually kill it
You defog-they send in bisharp.
Switch to Quag then wall bisharp
 
Then if it goes and zardX becomes overpowered we can just ban it next

Also I find that the doesharp matchup isn't that favored against stall.
Deos sets up rocks+spikes you eventually kill it
You defog-they send in bisharp.
Switch to Quag then wall bisharp
DeoSharp are just two mons. Common teammates are Landorus and Mawile which tear through stall.
 
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