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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
- Start date
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In UU a while back, I used SubPunch Azumarill with Toxic to deal with Slowbro and Milotic to clear a path for Arcanine.
I'm sure SubPunch Toxic Poliwrath could do something similar (it would be Substitute / Waterfall (or Ice Punch) / Focus Punch / Toxic. Imagine this common scenario:
Regirock comes in.
You switch Poliwrath in.
Regirock uses Stone Edge.
Poliwrath takes meh damage.
Poliwrath uses Substitute.
Slowking comes in.
Poliwrath uses Toxic.
Slowking attacks.
(Poliwrath uses Substitute) x4
(Slowking attacks)
Almost 100% clear path for Scarf Medicham or Relicanth now with Slowking practically useless.
I'm sure SubPunch Toxic Poliwrath could do something similar (it would be Substitute / Waterfall (or Ice Punch) / Focus Punch / Toxic. Imagine this common scenario:
Regirock comes in.
You switch Poliwrath in.
Regirock uses Stone Edge.
Poliwrath takes meh damage.
Poliwrath uses Substitute.
Slowking comes in.
Poliwrath uses Toxic.
Slowking attacks.
(Poliwrath uses Substitute) x4
(Slowking attacks)
Almost 100% clear path for Scarf Medicham or Relicanth now with Slowking practically useless.
^I'd like that scenario more if I was using Quagsire, who while getting curbstomped by the multitude of Grass-types in the tier and unfortunately doesn't have STAB on Focus Punch, has Encore too as well as access to Recover unlike Poliwrath allowing him to continuously abuse Substitute.
And think, it'll take months for it to get banned (RegiKing) even if proven to be too overcentralizing!
It's never a good thing for the same few Pokemon to be in every team because it just proves boring. How people actually find OU fun I've no idea.
Quagsire lures in Slowking....? I'm pretty sure Quagsire is a switch-in to Slowking, not a lure.
Yep, said I stated before, I was having issues with Sub CM's, and it seems I was not alone.
And reliable recovery is something Regirock always needed, it's hampering him in NU, to the degree that I'm thinking Regirock will stay in NU.
Slowking, on the other hand, I think he's the problem in the duo/trio.
And reliable recovery is something Regirock always needed, it's hampering him in NU, to the degree that I'm thinking Regirock will stay in NU.
Slowking, on the other hand, I think he's the problem in the duo/trio.
Regirock + 4x Grass resist (Vileplume) = fine, somewhat annoying to counter
Slowking + 4x Grass resist (Vileplume/Venusaur) = annoying to "counter" due to both being absurdly bulky
Regirock + Slowking = bad, requires super strong grass types like SDMeganium in NU or SDVenusaur in UU.
Regirock + Slowking + Vileplume = very, very bad. Unlike the above, SDMega/SDVenu are your only choices, no questions asked.
Ban Slowking and we'll be fine.
Slowking + 4x Grass resist (Vileplume/Venusaur) = annoying to "counter" due to both being absurdly bulky
Regirock + Slowking = bad, requires super strong grass types like SDMeganium in NU or SDVenusaur in UU.
Regirock + Slowking + Vileplume = very, very bad. Unlike the above, SDMega/SDVenu are your only choices, no questions asked.
Ban Slowking and we'll be fine.
I don't understand how Venusaur comes into play here but by mentioning him, you're also venturing into UU territory. UU is a completely different metagame and you have to compare the Pokemon (Regirock/Slowking) relative to each metagame.
In NU, the only viable counter for Regiking is SDMeganium, but in UU, where things tend to hit a lot harder and powerful Grass types are everywhere, the combination is not potent enough to force you to use SDVenusaur as the only counter.
Heracross can handle them with STAB Megahorn (Slowking and the Grass type of choice) and STAB Close Combat (Regirock)
Milotic can wall them to hell and back as well as likely take out Regirock with Surf (lack of recovery really hinders Regi, as does the lack of Sandstorm in UU). She can also Ice Beam you're Grass type
SD Leafeon laughs in both their faces and can Return/Double Edge Vileplume/Venusaur once it's set up
Venusaur, with just about any set, can handle both Regirock and Slowking (Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, Power Whip. Hell, even Grass Knot) and can Sludge Bomb/Earthquake your Grass or Grass/Poison type.
Houndoom can handle Slowking and Grass type easily with STAB Dark and Fire attacks, leaving only Regirock to worry about.
NP Mismagius, Sceptile, Torterra, arguably Tangrowth. The list goes on. This core isn't half as effective in UU as it is in NU because of the amount of things that can take out at leasat two thirds of it single handedly. And that's not even getting into the fact that Registeel pretty much outclasses Regirock in every way imaginable.
I think it's not accurate to say that "SD Venusaur is the only counter to RegiKingPlume" since Venusaur is UU and the UU tier is a completely different metagame.
Heracross shouldn't even be in UU. It'll take months to fix that though and it's a different metagame altogether, kind of like how it'll take months to fix NU.
MixPedo? Have fun with the complete lack of power.
Good Luck getting Mixpedo in without sacrificing something.
And there's still 3 team slots to handle Sharpedo. And if Sand is up, Regirock > Sharpedo.
Anyway, this is the second hotly debated combination Slowking's been in. It's quite clear Regirock is not broken alone, due to lack to reliable recovery, without it, it gets worn down. Almost any set-up attacker can take Regirock down.
Oh, and I'd like to propose a counter to RegiKingPlume:
Zangoose.
Calcs made with Life Orb, and Jolly Nature, at +2
Night Slash v 212/0 Calm Slowking [Sp.Def set from Smogon]
114.1% - 134.4%
Return v 252/252 Bold Vileplume:
142.1% - 167.5%
Close Combat v 252/36 Regirock: [RestTalk set on smogon]
93.4% - 109.9%
All cleanly outsped and OHKO'ed with Rocks/Spikes down.
The trouble is getting Zangoose IN, and getting an SD up, but it's possible, especially with a Sleep-inducer, or on a prediced heal from one of the squad. And unlike Mixpedo, he might actually survive a neutral attack from these guys.
BTW, Oglemi, Poliwarth has Encore too.
And there's still 3 team slots to handle Sharpedo. And if Sand is up, Regirock > Sharpedo.
Anyway, this is the second hotly debated combination Slowking's been in. It's quite clear Regirock is not broken alone, due to lack to reliable recovery, without it, it gets worn down. Almost any set-up attacker can take Regirock down.
Oh, and I'd like to propose a counter to RegiKingPlume:
Zangoose.
Calcs made with Life Orb, and Jolly Nature, at +2
Night Slash v 212/0 Calm Slowking [Sp.Def set from Smogon]
114.1% - 134.4%
Return v 252/252 Bold Vileplume:
142.1% - 167.5%
Close Combat v 252/36 Regirock: [RestTalk set on smogon]
93.4% - 109.9%
All cleanly outsped and OHKO'ed with Rocks/Spikes down.
The trouble is getting Zangoose IN, and getting an SD up, but it's possible, especially with a Sleep-inducer, or on a prediced heal from one of the squad. And unlike Mixpedo, he might actually survive a neutral attack from these guys.
BTW, Oglemi, Poliwarth has Encore too.
Cacturne
Camerupt
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Gardevoir
Glaceon (SubGlaceon in hail specifically)
Hitmonchan
Jynx
Kingler
Lickilicky
Magmortar
Magneton (specifically SubRise or simply Life Orb)
Medicham
Nidoqueen
Pinsir
Raichu
Relicanth
Rhydon
Sandslash
Sharpedo
Victreebell
Vileplume (LO variants beat defensive ones sorry people)
These are all common Pokemon that this combo cannot safely switch into (I'm being very generous on your side, so don't complain please).
Articuno
Cacturne
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Dodrio
Gardevoir
Grumpig
Haunter
Hypno
Jynx
Kingler
Lickilicky
Magneton (specifically SubRise or simply Life Orb)
Pinsir
Rampardos
Raichu
Relicanth
Rhydon
Sandslash
Sharpedo
Tauros
Victreebell
Vileplume
Zangoose
This is about as big as the other list since Regirock and Slowking can switch into about the same amount of threats.
Cacturne
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Gardevoir
Jynx
Kingler
Lickilicky
Magneton
Meganium
Pinsir
Raichu
Relicanth
Rhydon
Sandslash
Sharpedo
Victreebell
Vileplume
Slight improvement since Vileplum sucks and doesn't really check much.
The problem here is that you cannot back up your claims because they are incorrect where as all mine need are calculations to be backed up - however; I'm too lazy to do this; you have the ability to either do them or take my word for it.
Cacturne
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Gardevoir
Jynx
Kingler
Lickilicky
Magneton (specifically SubRise or simply Life Orb)
Pinsir
Raichu
Relicanth
Rhydon
Sandslash
Sharpedo
Victreebell
Vileplume
Sixteen individual Pokemon break through this core of three Pokemon quite easily. That's not a broken core at all. It's good.
Fun fact: If you use Defensive Meganium instead, you remove:
Sandslash
Rhydon
Relicanth
Magneton
Kingler
Crawdaunt
Cacturne
This means only nine Pokemon can break through that core. That's very impressive.
I don't believe that you could believe what you say some times.
Basic information regarding MixPedo:
- 372 Attack LO Crunch 2HKOes almost everything in the tier.
- Most of what it doesn't is OHKOed by Hydro Pump, 2HKOed by Crunch + Hydro Pump or simply 2 Hydro Pumps. (mainly Regirock, Skuntank, and bulky Grounds)
- Most of what Hydro Pump doesn't hit is beaten by two of Zen Headbutt, HP Grass, and Ice Beam (Meganium, Quagsire, Poliwrath).
I cannot comprehend how you think something that hits this many Pokemon that hard is remotely "lacking" power.
Almost every Pokemon you listed as a "counter" to RegiKingPlume (remember they can switch? yeah) can't switch in at all.
And two Hydro Pumps? Two hits of 80% Accuracy? That's our reliable counter to this? Hell, let Garchomp in NU, we'll just use Sashed OHKO moves.
And two Hydro Pumps? Two hits of 80% Accuracy? That's our reliable counter to this? Hell, let Garchomp in NU, we'll just use Sashed OHKO moves.
You forgot to read my post:
Heysup said:
What is so great about a defensive Combo that can't switch into so many common Pokemon???
And, as per usual, you're also wrong.
Cacturne - Easy switch into Slowking. Too easy almost. It can also take a Stone Edge from Regirock and an Earthquake much more easily.
Cradily - It can switch into literally EVERY attack these three mons use. Every singe one.
Crawdaunt - Once again, easy switch in for Slowking. It's also tickled by Earthquake and Stone Edge doesn't KO it.
Gardevoir - Slowking and Vileplume can't do shit to it. It also doesn't mind Earthquake from (defensive) Regirock.
Jynx - Slowking's Psychic or Slack Off. Defensive Regirock's Earthquake and Stealth Rock. Etc.
Kingler - Slowking and Regirock easily.
Lickilicky - Can switch into basically any attack.
Magneton - Anything but Earthquake.
Pinsir - Anything but Stone Edge.
Raichu - only Regirock's Stealth rock or Slowking's Slack Off. It can take a Surf I guess, but Thunderbolt doesn't OHKO.
Relicanth - Regirock's Stone Edge or Stealth Rock. Slowking's Slack Off.
Rhydon - Regirock's anything. Slowking's Slack Off or Thunder Wave.
Sandslash - Regirock's anything. Slowking's Slack Off or Thunder Wave. Vileplume's Sludge Bomb.
Sharpedo - Slowking.
Victreebell - Vileplume. Slowking's Surf and Slack Off. Regirock's Earthquake and Stealth Rock.
Vileplume - Vileplume. Slowking's Surf and Slack Off. Regirock's Earthquake and Stealth Rock.
This game we're playing - you saying something false then me correcting you - is getting kind of old. I mean I'm having a blast but it's a little tedious some times, you know?
Unholy Confessions said:
Only one Pokemon set, SpD Skuntank, needs to be hit by two Hydro Pumps. What about the other, you know, 100 Pokemon? What is your "counter-argument" for my actual argument? Your grasping for straws and not addressing my points (as demonstrated by this "lol 2 hydropumps won't hit" post).
I'm a little late, but I've gotta stick up for Gabite. This thing has been awesome in UU (as well as NU of course), and now people are going to theorymon that it can't be used in NU? Good logic, NU thread.
Floatzel seems like a pretty cool Pokemon. It's not a terribly good wallbreaker because it falls just short of a 2HKO against some key walls (Meganium mainly), although Crunch / Waterfall / Ice Punch gets neat coverage against the "RockKingGrass" core. What it does seem good at is a late game finisher because it gets a strong Waterfall, and second fastest Pokemon in the tier speaks for itself. Since it gets great coverage with those three moves, its last moveslot is pretty open. Double-edge/Return for the neutral coverage of Water/Normal and a stronger attack vs. other waters (Poliwrath and Quagsire). Taunt to prevent set-up. Bulk Up as a proxy for Swords Dance. Low Kick for Walrein coverage.
"Guesstimated" statistics based on battle experience is never accurate. Garchomp never rose above like 33% or something (which is a lot), but a lot of people were bitching about it being on EVERY SINGLE TEAM. I know that it felt more like 50%+ at the time. But it just wasn't the case.
Floatzel seems like a pretty cool Pokemon. It's not a terribly good wallbreaker because it falls just short of a 2HKO against some key walls (Meganium mainly), although Crunch / Waterfall / Ice Punch gets neat coverage against the "RockKingGrass" core. What it does seem good at is a late game finisher because it gets a strong Waterfall, and second fastest Pokemon in the tier speaks for itself. Since it gets great coverage with those three moves, its last moveslot is pretty open. Double-edge/Return for the neutral coverage of Water/Normal and a stronger attack vs. other waters (Poliwrath and Quagsire). Taunt to prevent set-up. Bulk Up as a proxy for Swords Dance. Low Kick for Walrein coverage.
"Guesstimated" statistics based on battle experience is never accurate. Garchomp never rose above like 33% or something (which is a lot), but a lot of people were bitching about it being on EVERY SINGLE TEAM. I know that it felt more like 50%+ at the time. But it just wasn't the case.
Floatzel seems like a good wallbreaker. but with the RegiKingPlume combo. Regigrock mostly (because of it's defense) it will lack power. That almost forces it to run bulk up as it's last slot. That makes it have a niche over MixSharp (I am not calling it MixPedo....) for wall breaking. Also because it's so fast I assume that it needs little speed investments and shifting some of those investments to HP. Another thing that's interesting about Floatzel is rain. With swift swim and base 115 Spd it's amazing, out speeding everything in the tier (baring pokes never seen/ other floatzels and some scarfers (they would have to be really fast >.>). Also it means it gets +1 waterfall and can run adamant. With rain up (we have electrode rain isn't that hard to set up, especially with executor gone, sure hippopatas will be a problem but you still KO it) and +1 from bulk up you can KO regirock
107.1% - 126.9% <--- rest talker set.
Then with crunch you can kill 212-0-0-44-252-0 Slowking (with +1)
100.5% - 118.8%
Item of choice would be LO for both calcs.
The plan would be... switch into regirock, take the stone edge doing
48.1% - 57%, get a bulk up on the switch or if they stay in they only do
32.1% - 38% which if they get max damage both of the times you will die to one LO hit (but you will take something down with you)
Then again, with hazards and stuff everywhere floatzel might not be that good. But at this point, it's just theroymon so who knows ><
Hmm, you could argue these.
Sets used:
Standard EV's + Nature for Slowking
Slack Off
Thunder Wave
Surf/Flamethrower
Psychic
Regirock @ Chesto Berry
252 HP, 252 Sp.Def, 4 Attack
+ Sp.Def, - Sp.Attack
Rest
Curse
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Vileplume @ Leftovers
252 HP, 252 Def, 4 Sp.Attack
Bold Nature
Energy Ball/Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb
Aromatherapy
Sleep Powder
Cacturne - Wasn't there some talk a while back about running Flamethrower and Psychic? Flamethrower destroys Cacturne, and it's not doing anything to Vileplume without a set-up.
Cradily - Can't touch Regirock. Regirock will Curse up. If Craydily sets up, it comes down to who crits first.
Crawdaunt - Can't switch in on Vileplume, DD sets [Only real option, or else Regirock/Vileplume will wall it], dislike Thunder Wave. Can't switch in on Regirock, espcially Curse.
Gardevoir - If sand is up, it can't touch Regirock. Risks Sleep Powder on Vileplume.
Jynx - Stone Edge, Aformentioned Flamethrower, it can switch in on Vileplume quite well.
Kingler - If Regirock used Curse on the switch, there goes Kingler. Psychic deals far too high damage to Kinger, with his 55/50 Special Bulk.
Lickilicky - Can switch into basically any attack... but can't do anything back, it's walled by Regirock until the cows come home, while Regirock Curses up.
Magneton - Anything but Earthquake/Flamethrower/Sleep Powder, Specs Flah Cannon actually fails to OHKO the above Regirock, meaning it can't switch in on Regirock at all, unless it's a Magnet Rise version, but those lack the power to beat Slowking, I think
Pinsir - Anything but Stone Edge/Flamethrower/Sleep Powder. Not a fan of Surf or Sludge Bomb either.
Raichu - Then why list as a counter, if it can only come in on non-attacking moves?
Relicanth - If it can only come in on recovery, it's no counter. A counter has to have little to no fear switching in.
Rhydon - Earthquake says HI. Curse says HI to ruining your attempts. Vileplume and Slowking walk all over Rhydon. If Slowking runs Surf...
Sandslash - Cannot do anything to Regirock. If Slowking runs Surf...
Sharpedo - Slowking, as long as it avoids Thunder Wave
Victreebell - Vileplume, provided it avoids Sleep Powder or Sludge Bomb. Slowking's Surf and Slack Off. Regirock's Stealth Rock. [EQ is normal effectivness, and Victreebel won't OHKO without a crit]
Vileplume - Fails to OHKO any of them, while is OHKO'ed by Psychic by Slowking, and Regirock KO's it faster. Biggest threat from it is Sleep Powder.
Nope, none of those are counters to the trio. They may be checks, but all of them can be stopped if certain moves are used. Slowking dosen't need Surf, as Regirock handles what Surf hits more than well enough, either by walling it [Ground and Rock types], or outright defeating it [Fire types]
Lol you're using slashes. Really...? I mean you may as well go Surf/Flamethrower/Toxic/Calm Mind in that slot because that's exactly what you're doing with your argument. Assuming it runs 5 moves rather than an actual slash.
Simply put; No, Slowking is not going to run Flamethrower unless the user is dumb and wants to lose to various threats that resist Psychic. In fact, if you add Flamethrower to your list instead of Surf, you can watch many Fire-types walk all over your ass. Regirock can't switch into many attacks due to not having reliable recovery either. Furthermore, Rock, Grounds, and other Pokemon can just walk and and set up on you, beat you, and then beat the rest of your team. You need Surf.
Additionally, now every Pokemon that I listed has an easier time switching into Regirock during the two turns it rests.
Raikaria said:
No there was no talk about running Flamethrower and Psychic.
Additionally, after it comes in on Regirock or Slowking, it can Substitute as you switch to Vileplume, use Swords Dance, and then keep subbing until you miss or use Sleep Powder then proceed to destroy Vileplume with a +2 Sucker Punch.
Raikaria said:
Uh huh. It can absorb Sleep from Vileplume and proceed to set up just like that. Regirock is not going to be Curse all of the time as you seem to think.
Raikaria said:
How is Regirock going to Curse after it gets Taunted?
More specifically, it can run Swords Dance, come in on Surf / Flamethrower (still lolling about this btw) Slack Off and Psychic, use Swords Dance, and proceed to OHKO the shit out of everyone on your team.
Sounds like a counter to me.
Raikaria said:
Substitute > Sleep Powder. Calm Mind Focus Blast > Regirock in the sand.
Still a counter.
Lol Flamethtrower. See the thing is Regirock uses Rest and Jynx comes in, sets up a Substitute and Nasty Plot, puts Regirock back to Sleep, sets up another 2 Nasty Plots, and OHKOes your whole team (except Slowking which gets slept and 2HKOed).
Raikaria said:
Wrong. How about this: Kingler switches in on any of Regirock's moves. If it uses Curse, then Kingler takes a whopping 40.2% - 47.6% as it sets up Swords Dance. I'm sure you don't need me to explain what happens after that.
Raikaria said:
Where do you get your information from....you seem to be severely misinformed not only about movesets, but movepools, stats, and damage calculations.
Lickilicky can boost its attack faster than Regirock can boost its defense with Swords Dance. Additionally, it can also use Curse Rest and actually stall Regirock out due to having more PP than it.
Or it can switch in on the other two Pokemon and set up Swords Dance.
Raikaria said:
I don't like repeating myself within the same post but....again, please do calculations.
SubRise with Leftovers or Life Orb, Thunderbolt, and Hidden Power Ice beats your whole set up because Flamethrower does in fact not KO Magneton. It 2HKOes you before you 2HKO it. Then what? You try to hit it with Stone Edge/Rock Slide from a weak Careful 236 Attack...?
The Life Orb set actually OHKOes Slowking and 2HKOes Regirock before you can touch it.
Raikaria said:
Wait so Slowking has Surf/Flamethrower/Psychic/Thunder Wave/Slack Off now?
Furthermore, Stone Edge does not OHKO, and it can easily come in on Rest. By changing your moveset, you're really opening yourself up to dumb threats like SD Rampardos and similar things.
Raikaria said:
They aren't all counters. Unholy Confessions said none of these Pokemon can switch in, and they all have ample opportunity. Raichu is on the less common side.
However...now that you brought Rest, Curse, and Flamethrower into the mix, Raichu can easily switch in and Encore, Nasty Plot, and destroy. So I'd say it's fairly comfortable.
Raikaria said:
It can come in on almost any Slowking attack and any Regirock attack (now that it's a weak ass Careful variant) besides Curse.
Raikaria said:
Slowking does nothing without Surf, sorry. Pick one or basically all I have to say to counter your arguments is "well it can't run both".
Earthquake barely says anything to Rhydon, do calculations. Earthquake vs Rhydon: 32.2% - 38.4%.
Rhydon comes in, takes an Earthquake, then promptly says "my turn" and does 79.7% - 94.5% back. It even 2HKOes through Curse.
Raikaria said:
What? Sandslash destroys Regirock. It takes jack shit from Rock Slide, Stone Edge, and Earthquake, while setting up Swords Dances all day. After that it doesn't matter if Slowking runs Surf; it will OHKO your whole team.
Raikaria said:
yes...and?
Raikaria said:
With both of these I was banking on the Sleep and sweep strategy, which does have flaws...just not against this trio.
Raikaria said:
Many of them are counters, but I never claimed them to be. Without Surf, you introduce a flurry of Rock-types, Ground-types, Fire-types (mainly Ninetales and Magmortar) as counters. And I have absolutely no idea why you think Regirock beats Rock/Ground types, because they all have Swords Dance or STAB Waterfall while also taking very minimal damage from Regirock's attacks (even SE Earthquakes).
I just want to point out that these threats only need to switch in on one of the three mons because the others are unable to switch in and beat it.
I'm also wondering why so many people seem to have the attitude that you can only use one single Pokemon to counter RegiKing Plume.
Regiking plume takes up 3 slots. That means even if you devote 2 whole slots to counter it (Heysup's list can EASILY find two things that mesh with your team well enough to integrate into your team) you are still one slot ahead.
Admittedly, at best, I'm mediocre at NU, but I do win my fair share of battles. The number of losses that I can attribute to RegiKing Plume being the core of a team is minimal. In fact, with Ape gone more people use it and I find it easier to exploit. Cacturne, in my experience, is a hard counter to Regirock and Slowking. There are a handful of Slowking that DO run flamethrower but as Heysup postulated, they seem rather few and far between.
Regiking plume takes up 3 slots. That means even if you devote 2 whole slots to counter it (Heysup's list can EASILY find two things that mesh with your team well enough to integrate into your team) you are still one slot ahead.
Admittedly, at best, I'm mediocre at NU, but I do win my fair share of battles. The number of losses that I can attribute to RegiKing Plume being the core of a team is minimal. In fact, with Ape gone more people use it and I find it easier to exploit. Cacturne, in my experience, is a hard counter to Regirock and Slowking. There are a handful of Slowking that DO run flamethrower but as Heysup postulated, they seem rather few and far between.
People find as if the Regiking Plume combo is the same manner of ScarmBliss, That there is a one counter to it so you only dedicate one slot of your team to it. I find that just putting 2 pokemon that are good checks to the trio is efficient.
Thank you, that was a very helpful and succinct reply.
Also, why was Grumpig not listed in the checks? It can come in on any of them and a ChoiceTrick or Toxic can cripple RegiKing like nobody business pluss access to Signal Beam (for King) and Energy ball (for both). And it still 2HKOs Vileplume even if you use a bulky set.
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