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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)

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Uberiffic said:
Subroost zard doesn't work, everyone knows not to let charizard get a sub up in case of belly drum, which is why specs charizard works so well (I run Flamethrower/Air Slash/Dragon Pulse/Overheat) because you rarely need to predict a switch, since no one switches out of zard
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Why run Dragon Pulse over Hidden Power [Grass]? Punishing silly people who send Quagsire into Charizard thining it might be a decent counter is fun.

My favorite Charizard set is LORoost acctually. It works a lot like Moltres in UU, but its not the most obvious moveset for him, which helps a lot. But LORoost is deadly by itself, so the surprise factor is just an added bonus.
 
Agreed. You need HP Grass to hit bulky waters harder, particularly Gastrodon, Quagsire, and the physically-based ones you can easily 2HKO.
 
I got HeartGold today, and, while I was training up a Slowpoke, an idea for a possible Slowking set hit me on the head:

Although the basics are on the analysis, that's geared towards UU, even OU play.

Slowking is already one of NU's strongest Special Walls, basically, it can't be 2HKO except by Specs Special Attacks, Espeon's Shadow Balls or Magmortar's Thunderbolts.

Slowking @ Leftovers
252 HP, 252 Sp.Def, 4 Attack
Careful Nature

Curse
Slack Off
Aqua Tail
Zen Headbutt

With absolute maximum Sp.Def, hitting 350, Slowking is not even 2HKO'ed by most non-Choiced Special Attacks. However, Slowking is vunerable to Physical attacks.

Curse makes work of this. Slowking's horrendous Base 30 Speed isn't going to be missed as you use Curse to increase your defence as the Special Attacker you're sure to wall switch to a physical attacker, who suddenly finds they're in the same boat, against Slowking's acceptable Base 80 Defence.

However, the defence buff isn't all. Slowking recives a buff to his Attack stat as well, which isn't half bad, Base 75. Combined with his two STAB options, Slowking actually gains almost perfect coverage within NU.

Slack Off allows Slowking to heal, while building up his Attack and Defence, for a 'Sweep'. After a couple of turns of setting up. Slowking will be outsped by even Trapinch... but who cares when basically nothing in the teir can 2HKO you, and you have reliable recovery?

The first things to fall will probobly be Slowking's common counters, as they switch in, only to end up being walled. This allows Slowking to more easily set up after it's usual 'counter' is gone.

The thing about this Slowking, is that even if it fails to sweep the first time, it can come in on something it walls, and Slack Off, so it can try again later. It's like the definition of a Tank. It's hard to take out, slow, but crushes everything under it once it gets going.

Counters

Note, that most of this Slowking's counters have to switch in before it sets up too much, otherwise, they will be OHKO'ed before they can 2HKO Slowking.

Choice Specs or Life Orb Magmortar can 2HKO Slowking with Thunderbolt, and without Thunder Wave, it is a lot safer for Magmortar to attempt to do so.

Espeon can also manage a 2HKO with Shadow Ball. It can also Clam Mind and Substitute as you Curse, and then defeat you with Shadow Ball.

Choice Manetric can be a major pain, Specs don't benifit you, and Scarf is pointless as well. In addittion, there's a 2HKO risk with Thunderbolt.

Choice Haunter can also manage a 2HKO with Shadow Ball.

Primeape's U-Turns can whittle down Slowking's HP, especially if it's Banded. However, if Slowking's set up, this is no issue.

Opposing Slowking can wall your Slowking, being one of the few to resist both STABS. However, Toxic is the only thing they can really do back.

Toxic ruins Slowking, as ever.

Anything with Explosion is a counter to any Slowking, as it ignores Defence boosts, and resolves damage at -1 Defence. Slowking isn;t going to be OHKO'ing Explosive pokemon before they explose either.

Skuntank is not a counter to this Slowking, and is in fact set-up fodder as long as Slowking already has a Curse under it's crown.

Team Options

A great thing for this Slowking to have on it's side is something that can take on Espeon, Magmortar, Haunter, and Manetric. Unfortunetly, no such NU pokemon can take on all of these [In truth, none can reliably take on Magmortar 100% of the time...].

Skuntank is a great partner for Slowking, beating Espeon, Haunter, and opposing Slowking. Manetric and Magmortar also don't like Sucker Punches. Immunity to Toxic is great too.

Floatzel is probobly one of the best Magmortar checks, as it can come in after a KO, a threaten a OHKO with Waterfall. Persuit can also be used to damage a fleeing Magmortar. Scarfed Magmortar locked on Thunderbolt, however, are not safe.

Magneton resists all attacks that Slowking is weak to. In return, Slowking resists Fighting and Fire, and hits Ground types Super Effectivly. It has to watch out for Flamethrowers from Manetric and Magmortar.

Paralysis Support is noteworthy, as it may let Slowking better handle Magmortar, provided it's not cursed too much. Once set up, Slowking will probobly be outrun even by Paralysed pokemon.

Holes mde in the opposing team by such a Slowking can later be exploited by other physical attackers, such as ScarfApe, or DDCharizard.

I'll probobly be giving CurseKing a shot in NU next time I'm on, and once I make a decent team utilising it.

Opinions? Worthless Gimmick, useful, or great?
 
I believe in order to prove this isn't gimmicky, you would have to give attack calcs. Cause base 75 with only 4 ev's and neutral is not very strong at all. Even at plus 6 i bet it doesn't OHKO bulky pokemon, and especially not resisters. I also bet that Crawdaunt would see this as HUUUUGE set-up bait, and would love this set to pieces. lol. A couple of DD's, or even just one, and CRUNCH.

But actually, Crawdaunt wouldn't love it so much if you added Return as a possibility over Zen Headbutt. Although it loses even MORE power, which is probably a huge issue.

So, I pretty much think it is a gimmick. Slowking is damn good enough as is, and gets Nasty Plot if it really wants to sweep.
 
I've been using Curse Slowking recently, but with Return over Zen Headbutt. The problem I'm having is that if you don't have a super effective attack, its easy enough to set up on. There's also enough physical threats that it can be hard to get a couple curses up to begin with.
 
The best use of Articuno is to scare the beejeezus out of everything not Sturdy with:

~Mindreader
~Sheer Cold
~Roost
~Ice Beam/Blizzard

When playing matches where OHKO moves are allowed, that is pretty fearsome especially with Spikes down.

Curse Slowking isn't horrible but with higher SpA, Nasty Plot, and higher base power special moves it'll be a harder to justify using Curse over his alternatives.
There is actually a Curse Slowking in the onsite analysis with Return and Avalanche as slashes over Zen Headbutt and some EV investment in Atk.
Avalanche would help against Grass types such as Exeggutor who resists Slowking's STABs and should often get to 120 power with his low speed.
Unfortunately, Pokemon like Lapras/Walrein/Dewgong, with their typing and abilities, will LOL at the Water/Ice combination all day.
 
I'm making a more general statement here, but auto heal in my opinion is poor on a Curser. Most people's first reaction when they see one is to status it. Since Rest also takes up two non moving turns, it makes it harder to stall Cursers out of their PP, and since you have massive defenses it's harder to kill you in those two turns. I see Miltank that run Milk Drink and Heal Bell on the same set....that's pretty inefficient, you can combine those two moves into one, not have to deal with Heal Bell's low PP, and have room for two attacks that can grant perfect coverage.

So yeah, I would recommend against using Milk Drink / Recover / Slack Off etc.
 
Age of Kings said:
I'm making a more general statement here, but auto heal in my opinion is poor on a Curser. Most people's first reaction when they see one is to status it. Since Rest also takes up two non moving turns, it makes it harder to stall Cursers out of their PP, and since you have massive defenses it's harder to kill you in those two turns. I see Miltank that run Milk Drink and Heal Bell on the same set....that's pretty inefficient, you can combine those two moves into one, not have to deal with Heal Bell's low PP, and have room for two attacks that can grant perfect coverage.

So yeah, I would recommend against using Milk Drink / Recover / Slack Off etc.
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I hear you and I tend to feel that way too.
OTOH, I can understand the general preference for side-effect free recovery when available.

Rest imposes two turns of sleep which can be dangerous free turns in certain situations (opposing setup sweepers).
You can opt for SleepTalk but then you have used as many slots as Recover+Refresh and have to deal with SleepTalk's randomness.

So while I tend to prefer Rest on Pokemon like Curse Cradily it has never been a really easy decision.
 
Basically, there are three viable Cursers in NU - Miltank, Cradily and Slowking. Miltank can take advantage of Scrappy to use Heal Bell and Milk Drink - I've tested this and it really isn't a problem. Slowking has much better Special Defense so is harder to kill once it has a Curse, but is vulnerable to Toxic. Cradily gets Sand bonus, but that requires you dedicate a slot on your team to Hippopotas. It also has to use Rest, leaving you free to bring in a powerful special attacker like Espeon or a Focus Blast-wielding Fire-type.
 
Ice-eyes said:
Basically, there are three viable Cursers in NU - Miltank, Cradily and Slowking. Miltank can take advantage of Scrappy to use Heal Bell and Milk Drink - I've tested this and it really isn't a problem. Slowking has much better Special Defense so is harder to kill once it has a Curse, but is vulnerable to Toxic. Cradily gets Sand bonus, but that requires you dedicate a slot on your team to Hippopotas. It also has to use Rest, leaving you free to bring in a powerful special attacker like Espeon or a Focus Blast-wielding Fire-type.
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Gastrodon is also a great Curser but he's better off Stockpiling.
 
I've found Cursers to just be incredible Encore Quagsire bait. Once they've been forced out they are not going to be indiscriminately Cursing when they come back in and they are then just weak walls and you can take them out accordingly.
 
I'm curious as to what people think of Trapinch in the current metagame. I don't ladder much so I haven't tested it, but it can trap and kill Skuntank with a LO Earthquake (no attack investment at all), whilst taking around 55-60% from a STAB 252 attack LO Sucker Punch, which is a godsend since so many sweepers and/or Pokemon in general are Skuntank weak. Quick Attack of 100 base attack can hurt too depending on how much attack investment you have. Overall though, the bulk is what is has over Diglett as a trapper.
 
Why is Skuntank using Sucker Punch? Trapinch is ungodly slow, I'd use Crunch.

BTW, Scarf Jolly Trapinch is less fast and less powerful than Adamant Band Diglett.
 
Besides, LO Skuntank shouldn't run Crunch. Taunt/Sucker/Pursuit/Explosion. The problem with Trapinch is that Skuntank will just boom on it - given It probably just Pursuited something to death, sacking something to force the Explosion isn't the best idea.
 
Ice-eyes said:
Besides, LO Skuntank shouldn't run Crunch. Taunt/Sucker/Pursuit/Explosion. The problem with Trapinch is that Skuntank will just boom on it - given It probably just Pursuited something to death, sacking something to force the Explosion isn't the best idea.
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I find the general STAB attack to be better than Taunt. It eases the prediction and allows Skuntank to function as a makeshift lategame sweeper if need be. Most people with Slowking stay in and attack to avoid both Taunt and Pursuit. Crunch allows you to hit it hard, still, and doesn't punish you as Sucker Punch does if it goes with Thunder Wave. It works similarly with Espeon.

Still, if you do find yourself in a Skuntank vs Trapinch matchup you should just Explode. Skuntank is going to die anyways, why not kill Trapinch too?
 
I'd probably choose Trapinch over Diglett, but that would depend on the team I'm using, and the metagame.

However, I probably wouldn't use either. Their stats are really quite dire (well, Trapinch has great Attack, and Diglett has great Speed I suppose).

I was thinking, it would be useful to know the average stats in each tier, because then we could work out things like if Diglett's Attack is higher relative to the average Defense in NU, than Dugtrio's Attack is relative to the average Defense in OU.
 
Mattman324 said:
BTW, Scarf Jolly Trapinch is less fast and less powerful than Adamant Band Diglett.
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Who the fuck would use scarf Trapinch. I said Life Orb ffs.
Leman said:
Still, if you do find yourself in a Skuntank vs Trapinch matchup you should just Explode. Skuntank is going to die anyways, why not kill Trapinch too?
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That's the problem I saw with it, but the whole point of using Trapinch is to get rid of Skuntank to sweep with something like Lunatone or Espeon. If that involves it exploding on Trapinch, I'd consider its mission successful tbh.
 
Note:These were taken before the last tier changes with typhlosion, Espeon, Magmortar, and the like. Nowadays there's probably a bit more spatk.
NU Pokemon only
*begin not my stuff.*
HP 73
Attack 84
Defense 77
Special Attack 76
Special Defense 77
Speed 68

NU and all NFEs together

HP 61
Attack 67
Defense 64
Special Attack 61
Special Defense 62
Speed 58

NU and competitive NFEs*

HP 68
Attack 77
Defense 73
Special Attack 70
Special Defense 72
Speed 65

*Competitive NFEs, for the purposes of this spreadsheet are at least 1 of the following:

- 2nd stage evolution (in the case of 3 stage chains)
- Not a NFE of a current NU (unless they're a special case)
- Distinct to their evolution

An example of a 2nd stage evolution is Charmeleon, meaning that Charmander wasn't counted in this average. A NFE of a current NU would be something like Flaafy, since Ampharos is currently also NU. An exception to this would be Anorith, who is much different than Armaldo due to a huge speed difference. In most cases, if something is distinct to its evolution, it's already counted as NU, but just in case they weren't, they're still listed.
*end not my stuff.*
Kudos to Bologo for putting these up on another forum I frequent, these are awesome. counting competitve NFE's, Adamant band Digglet an effective base 122 attack. Though as choice banders go, this is pitiful, for a one move revenge killer it works fairly well in comparison to average. Trapinch's attack is obviously well above average, but how exactly does it plan to get a hit in? base 10 speed barely outspeeds munchlax, and 45/45/45 defensive stats don't exactly let him survive any hits. I consider trapinch better than digglett, but I'm not particularly iclined to use either of them.
 
TanzAufDemVulkan said:
That's the problem I saw with it, but the whole point of using Trapinch is to get rid of Skuntank to sweep with something like Lunatone or Espeon. If that involves it exploding on Trapinch, I'd consider its mission successful tbh.
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I get that, I was just saying that that was the best option for the Skuntank user.
 
Are people usig AgiliDance Kingler or DD Crawdaunt?

Kingler, in particular can destroy most faster Special attackers with unboosted attacks (w/ SR or LO) while mauling most slower ones at +2.
Since it has the highest attack of any Water Type it must run Swords Dance to further abuse a gift and distinguish itself.
But now Agility gives it the jump on almost anything and it need not fear Intimidate due to Hyper Cutter.
Furthermore, it has the Def to absorb certain physical hits and use Swords Dance after having used Agility.
Since, maximum Speed may not be needed with Agility, some EVs can be put into HP to make set up a bit easier.
In view of the above, Leftovers might actually be the best item over Life Orb.

DD Crawdaunt has good dual STAB moves and decent coverage options.
It's slow though and quite frail but might be worth supporting in NU where it's easily the most powerful Dragon Dancer.
I used them both once on the same team in a few matches I played on the CAP server.
Crawdaunt w/X-Scissor had a knack for weakening Kingler's counters making it easier for him to clean up later.
 
What are people's thoughts on using some of the essentially never used, NU Pokemon. Things like Pidgeot and most bug-types for example?

I don't really play Shoddy, so I don't know about server stats and such, but I've been running the Defensive Pidgeot set in the analysis but using Heat Wave over HP Ground (I'm really crap at IV breeding) and it's doing quite well against other NU teams on Wi-Fi. Mostly due to seeing more of the never used on Wi-Fi than on Shoddy
 
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