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InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
We've known about this for a while tbh (I remember discussing it in the OM chat at least a couple weeks ago). I believe TI said it was a pain in the ass to code it though, so I'm not sure if it's implemented on main.
 

Osra

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is a Pre-Contributor
Good morning/afternoon/evening everyone, This is Glyx here, and I'm here to talk about 1v1 etiquette.

1v1 etiquette is the process of using your moves in a specific manner to win battles in the 1v1 meta. It is what can change what some would have once thought to be a guaranteed loss into at least a chance of winning. One such example being the matchup of Gyarados vs Mawile; the winner here seems pretty obvious, right? Well, maybe not that obvious, a standard Gyarados set with Earthquake vs a standard Mawile actually 50/50's it as long as the Mawile doesn't carry Hyper Cutter for its ability. All Gyarados needs to do is go against the primal instinct to click Dragon Dance and use Earthquake without Mega evolving, and then Earthquake again after Mega evolving so that way you can resist the incoming Sucker Punch, otherwise you're signing your death certificate upon using Dragon Dance.

Anyways, it's matchups like these that are filled with possible hope where hope is not seen where 1v1 etiquette comes into play, and the main function of this post is to try and offer as many systems of move selections for every seemingly hopeless matchup of common Pokemon in the 1v1 meta.
Please note that I will be leaving out matchups where it comes down to random chance/heavy predicting, such as anything involving Serene Grace, UNLESS there's a noteworthy detail involved that matchup that people tend to overlook
ALSO NOTE: these matchups are based on first impression battles, NOT after you've fought the same person a lot


  • Chansey vs Gyarados-Mega: Never have Chansey use a move vs Gyarados on the first turn, the chance that Gyarados is running Taunt nowadays is beginning to skyrocket, but even then, Taunt does not stop Chansey as long as you know to anticipate it, since Seismic Toss is a guaranteed 4HKO on Gyarados, and most, if not all Taunt Gyarados just use it immediately.
  • (Substitute) Charizard-Mega-X vs Chansey: Never assume you're safe to do anything just because you managed to outpredict your opponent and get a free Substitute, it's still another 50/50 chance between whether or not you use Dragon Dance/Wisp or just go all in, attacking them. Chansey loses roughly 50% from a Charizard-X Flare Blitz/Outrage, meaning that it is capable of simply spamming Softboiled until you either kill yourself from recoil, or confuse yourself, which will lead to even more shenanigans. The 50/50 war between these two gods of 1v1 may never end.
  • Chansey vs Chansey/Sableye-Mega/Aegislash: All of these Pokemon have one thing in common when up against Chansey; lots of PP stalling. Most Ghost types are accredited with being able to blatantly beat Chansey, which actually isn't all that true; Aegislash actually has less PP than Chansey, but usually only wins because it manages to out PP stall it because the Chansey was crazy enough to use Thunder Wave on it from the start. Sableye on the other hand, acts in a reversed manner; Chansey easily stalls it for PP if either the Sableye chose not to use Wisp on the first turn in, or the Wisp missed, either situation allowing Chansey to have Thunder Wave get bounced back at it, allowing it to easily stall Sableye down. Now, in a situation of Chansey vs Chansey, you never want to use Thunder Wave until it's the last move you have PP for, otherwise the paralyzed Chansey easily wins by PP stall unless some amazingly unlucky paralysis shenanigans occur.
  • Mawile-Mega/Pinsir-Mega/Metagross-Mega vs Chansey: Chansey is regarded as one of the best physical attack stoppers in 1v1, for good reason; it has great bulk, and a very effective way to reduce the opponent's Attack stat, BUT these few Pokemon have abilities prior to Mega evolving that allow them to negate Chansey's Attack reductions. Mawile and Pinsir both have Hyper Cutter, which strictly serves the purpose of negating Attack drops, while also being backed up with Swords Dance, allowing them to make quick work of Chansey. Metagross, on the other hand, has the superior ability of Clear Body, which negates all stat drops, but no effective way of setting up, which means that Metagross is left at the mercy of RNG as to whether or not it will be paralyzed on the key turns that matter (Note that Metagross also needs Hammer Arm to deal any notable damage to Chansey, otherwise it's left relying on the Meteor Mash boost).
  • Charizard-Mega-X vs Mawile-Mega:
    -1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 282-332 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    This is why you should absolutely have Charizard use Will-o-Wisp on Mawile without Mega evolving it, in the event that you're in this matchup and carry the move, otherwise you have less chance of winning than a Hypnosis has of hitting.
  • (Scarf) Porygon-Z vs Gyarados-Mega: For some reason, whenever I see people get this matchup, the Porygon-Z instantly loses by using Hyper Beam. I guess they may just be lacking Thunderbolt or Uproar, but I mean, if you're not using either of those moves on Porygon-Z, what even are you using? Adaptability Uproar or Thunderbolt with any ability easily knock out most Gyarados in two hits.
  • Gyarados-Mega vs Slowbro/Mega: Most people usually look at this matchup and think Slowbro wins because of its raw bulk, but what people forget is that Gyarados has both a STAB super effective attack with Crunch, AND can block Slowbro setting up its defenses with Taunt. The main problem with this matchup is that Slowbro in its base form has the ability Oblivious, which nullifies Taunt, BUT if Slowbro stays in its base form to do so, it leaves itself vulnerable to be hit hard by a Crunch. The way that Gyarados usually almost always wins against Slowbro is through using Crunch first to deal damage, because Mega Slowbro or not, it will still deal a lot of damage, and if they Mega evolved then Gyarados wins by using Taunt and finishing them off, and if they didn't then Gyarados wins by just finishing it off with a second Crunch (Given that your Gyarados is carrying both of these moves). The only way a Slowbro could win this matchup is if it were maximally invested towards physical bulk and used Iron Defense turn 1 in its regular form.
  • Greninja vs Meloetta/Porygon-Z: Both of these Pokemon are prominent threats to Greninja in that they either easily tank an attack from it, or outspeed it and KO it before it gets to do anything. As such, a while ago, someone crafty figured to give Greninja Shadow Sneak, since the move is a priority attack, that means it will go first, AND it changes Greninja's type into Ghost, making it immune to both of their Hyper Beams. The only problem with this strategy is once people know you're liable to use it, they'll smarten up, but for the first time you're battling someone, it will almost always net a win by making them struggle to death once their choiced move runs out of PP.
  • Slowbro-Mega vs Kyurem-Black: Slowbro is usually viewed as the winner of this matchup, which, it indeed usually is, BUT Choice Specs Kyurem-Black is absolutely a thing that can exist, which is usually capable of knocking out Slowbro that have little to no special bulk in one hit, but in the event Slowbro survives a Specs attack, it has a chance to change its fate. The easiest way to do this is to have it use Slack Off on the first turn every time you encounter a Kyurem with your Slowbro, so that way the opposing Kyurem can't 2HKO with a potential Specs Draco Meteor.
  • Garchomp vs Charizard-Mega-X/Y: It is a very common misconception that Garchomp needs to carry a Rock type attack to handle the Charizards, all it really needs to do is use Outrage and that will do the job for every Charizard except for the rare Charizard that packs maximum investment towards its physical bulk.
  • Pinsir-Mega vs Kyurem-Black: Kyurem seems very intimidating towards Pinsir considering the fact that two of its most popular moves are both super effective against Pinsir, but the worst that Kyurem can deal Pinsir with is a 50/50 chance of an uninvested Ice Beam OHKO-ing Mega Pinsir, which it can easily scout out with Protect and act accordingly, either OHKO-ing with Giga Impact on the next turn if it chose anything except Ice Beam, or 2HKO-ing with the combination of Close Combat + Quick Attack if it does use Ice Beam (Assuming you carry these moves).
  • Rhyperior vs (Substitute) Charizard-Mega-X: You'd hardly believe a Rhyperior would lose to Charizard-X, but it does, and quite frequently at that. The main issue that Charizard deals Rhyperior with is using Substitute when the best and pretty much only move Rhyperior can do is Rock Wrecker, which leaves it incredibly open to be set up on further. The easiest solution to this problem is simple, just give Rhyperior Rock Blast, it's a multi-hit attack, which means it's capable of breaking Charizard's Substitute, as well as dealing further damage beyond that.
  • Whimsicott (Leftovers) vs Low PP choiced Pokemon: A little known fact about Whimsicott is that, when given Leftovers, it becomes one of the best PP stallers in the meta. The combination of Protect + Substitute spamming allow it to wear down up to 16 points of an opponent's PP, meaning that the only real threat to it after that point is whether or not the opponent's Struggle will finish it off. And if that is a legitimate concern for you, you can always give it Rest just to make absolutely certain that it will live. Other than Hoopa and any Sound abusing Pokemon, this setup on Whimsicott actually allows it to beat practically any Choiced Pokemon that's using a move with 16 PP or less.
  • Metagross-Mega vs Mawile-Mega: I don't get why so many Metagross lose to Mawile, the only reason I can think of is that they didn't pack Bullet Punch. Bullet Punch allows Metagross to outprioritize Mawile's Sucker Punch, meaning that the only moves it has to deal damage with are Play Rough and Iron Head, unless they're carrying some kind of strange coverage move.
  • Blastoise-Mega vs Greninja: Blastoise vs Greninja is a very tricky matchup that's usually based on the presence of the move Grass Knot in Greninja's moveset. That being said, just because Greninja does have Grass Knot, doesn't mean that it automatically wins. Blastoise's weight range in its base form makes Grass Knot have a base power of 80, meanwhile Mega Blastoise's weight range causes Grass Knot to have a base power of 100, which serves as the definitive difference between whether or not Blastoise actually survives the attack. So when Blastoise is up against Greninja, it is actually in your better interest to not Mega evolve immediately, and either scout what move they're using with Protect, or just immediately go for Mirror Coat, since that is the only move regular Blastoise can use to OHKO Greninja when it's a Grass type.
That's every matchup I could think of using all the S, A, and notable B ranks, if there are any particular matchups I missed or if I did something wrong, please do let me know, but try not to involve any niched sets, just the standard ones that are usually to be expected.

 
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Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Some issues I wanted to bring light to:

There's still what in my opinion a bunch of pokes and strats that cause an unbalanced meta. I think celticpride was on to something in his posts: 1 2.
Change here happens very rarely and very slowly. I get that in order for change to happen there needs to be discussion to begin with, however 1v1 is such a meta that doesn't attract the playerbase that discusses things in forums. And even if a discussion starts, very few people join, and when they join, no offense to any of the posters here, but the quality of the posts is subpar to the standard that is and should be required for a progressive and intelligent discussion as outlined here for example.

Suspect Threads Etiquette

I am seeing some repeated arguments, I am just going to do a quick summary post.

- Firstly, if you make a checks or counters argument, the very first thing you need to do is make sure you have the correct terminology. A check, is something that cannot exactly switch in safely, but can often win a "1v1", or revenge kill the Pokemon in question. A counter is something that can 100% switch in and hard wall, or force an unfavourable situation for said Pokemon.

- Secondly, just because something lacks counters / checks does NOT mean it is instantly broken. Cube, BW Hydreigon etc were / are all impossible to switch into, but that does not instantly make them broken. However, if something DOES have checks and counters, this doesn't make it NOT broken either. Genesect had counters, Aegislash had counters (specific to its set) and so on. Also, take not that if you parade around a collection of shitty mons that situationally counter a suspect, I will flat out delete your post. It might even give you an infraction. I know that myself and pretty much every other OU mod is tired of seeing people discuss Arcanine, Weezing, Quillfish and pretty much anything else. Hint: If you are using garbage mons to check a top-tier sweeper, then its potentially a good indicator as to how unhealthy it is.

- Thirdly, just because you beat Mega Mawile while you have an Elo rating of 1000 does not mean it's not broken. If you want to use battle statistics in your argument, look at the top tier battles, the VR posters, the Tourney scene, use really good examples. It's much harder to refuse your points if you are a highly respected battler, usually because it means people trust and respect your opinion, regardless as to which way you vote. The lower you are on the ladder, the less Mega Mawile will be used successfully and intelligently, so please bear that in mind.

- Fourthly, if you use the argument; "LOL MEGA MAWILE SUCKS I JUST OHKO IT WITH EQ GGGGGGGGGGG", I will infract you. No question. All of us are (mostly), intelligent and have the ability to read. We all know how to look at a type chart, and you stating the obvious just makes you look like an utter retard that's out of his/her depth, and thus shouldn't be posting here.

-Fifthly, Fact Check. There is nothing more retarded than posting a sweeping statement that's incorrect. For instance, several people brought up earthquake from several mons as methods of dealing with Mawile. Many of these people failed to realize EQ missed a KO, and thus looked like morons. According to an IRC convo, someone who's opinion I trust remarked that Mega Mawile for instance, actually beats Gliscor provided it used SD on the switch in, tanks the Earthquake, and smokes Gliscor with a +2 Play Rough. I'm not sure if residual damage is required to do all that but the point is, don't take short cuts; we all have damage calculators, and we WILL call you out on it if you fucked up. I'm exempt from this rule because I'm a mod.

- Sixthly, don't assume a suspect (say Mega Mawile) will stay in on your Sun boosted, Blaze boosted Choice Specs Overheat. An earlier argument I saw was someone posting a load of calculations and saying "LOL MAWILE GETS OHKOed BY CHANDELURE". That's A+ logic mate, but Mega Mawile isn't setting up on a Charizard Y, instead, it's coming in on a choice locked dragon move, a resisted attack, a -1 Pokemon that lacks an effective means to do severe damage, etc. Posting a list of Pokemon that can OHKO Mega Mawile means jack shit if you need to sacrifice a Pokemon to get your check in safely. Its not setting up, and its not staying in.

- Seventhly, be careful of the "Prediction argument". IT GOES BOTH WAYS. Really clever posters will use the risk reward prediction argument, which is a good one. If you want a breakdown about it, I'm sure many experienced players will be able to tell you, but the point is, you don't have godlike prediction skills, so I don't want to see posts like "I will go to Heatran on a play rough, then go to Gengar on a Focus Punch, then use Substitute on the Sucker Punch and then use Will-o-Wisp on a second Sucker Punch. You are not clairvoyant, nor is your opponent, so don't pretend otherwise.

- Eighthly, make sure your post actually bring some sort of discussion to it. The posts I see that are just "yea so Mega Mawile has high attack power so I think it's broken" not only have terrible arguments but add NOTHING to the discussion. I'm not asking you to make a novel, but please make sure your post has a depth of reasoning and quality behind it. If you cannot be bothered putting through into it, then quite frankly, I cannot be bothered reading it. In general, the better your arguments are (detail, reasoning etc), the better of the overall quality of your post, and the better chance you have of influencing people to see things your way. Therefore, if you feel strong about a particular suspect, it is in your interest to make your post as well reasoned as possible, because if you half-ass it, then you are convincing no-one.

- Ninethly, don't mention how good / not good a Pokemon will be in Ubers. We don't care. Usage in Ubers has no impact on if we ban / not ban something. It could be garbage in Ubers but if its unhealthy for the OU metagame then it goes, no exceptions.

- FINALLY don't discuss past or future tiering. I couldn't care less if you feel salty about the Aegislash ban, and I don't give a shit that you feel that Thundurus-I should be suspected first. Likewise for the love of god, DON'T, DON'T say "but if we ban Mega Mawile, suddenly haxorus becomes broken", like in one post I read. We do not keep broken things within OU to check others, so please don't try this argument. Furthermore, don't whinge that your precious mon might be garbage in Ubers - we don't use it as a point of reference. It could get less usage that Magikarp in Ubers and we don't care - its not relevant. Likewise, please don't bitch or rage that your fanboy favourite just got suspect tested and might, be banned, use calm logic and reasoning and you will do a heck of a lot of a better job convincing others to see your side instead of posting shit like "FUCK SMOGON IT HATES ON MEGAS AND WANTS TO BAN THEM ALL I HATE THIS SITE".
I know these guidelines were broken multiple times in different discussions here, and I could give examples, but that's not the point of this post this time.

And regarding what happens after a discussion is concluded, the suspect process, I think when something is way broken, it shouldn't be suspected, it should be straight up banned. This is not unprecedented Smogon procedure, as pokemon do get quickbanned based on merely what they do on paper, which could be easy to see based on base stats for example. In 1v1 it hasn't been complaints based on whats merely on paper, they have been long time experiences. I know this could be problematic due to being subjective, but when something as broken as Perish Song or Mega Salamence is proven to be broken by magnitudes of reasons, and is left up to the 1v1 players whether or not it should be banned, it's ridiculous. Mega Salamence barely got enough ban votes when the suspect voting was held. If the votes were against ban, would that suddenly make Mega Salamence or Perish Song balanced or healthy for 1v1?
According to the result it would, and that speaks a lot of the 1v1 player's mindsets and sense for what balance is. Combine that with the fact that people have since long adjusted to the status quo, which allows what in my opinion are too strong pokes such as Kyurem-B and Mega Mawile, it's not strange that change is very hard to achieve.

So going back to the issue, there's still a bunch of uncompetitiveness and unhealthyness in 1v1.
Examples being Kyurem-B, Deo-D, Mega Mawile. Not to mention the TrickChoice issue which went largely ignored, which is an example of an issue that the majority of the playerbase won't consider or have much problems with due to their playstyle and the nature of the strat which won't immediately make clear that there's an issue, but the issue is real nonetheless and it's an arguably unhealthy strat nonetheless, and up to the players it would stay.

At this rate, with the current procedures, it's going too slow. This calls for a change. Other OM's constantly revise their banlists, 1v1 shouldn't be an exception. It's not like 1v1 somehow already has the perfect banlist? I know that the other OM's partly achieve change thanks to people actively posting, but as I said, that's is not very likely to happen at all in this thread.

A judgement of some sort, based on arguments here would go a long way in getting things banned, as opposed to leaving it up to players that ignore the discussion here when voting or ignore Smogon's guidelines on what balance is. And speaking of which, balance guidelines for 1v1 should be set after some discussion maybe. And I say after discussion because that would make it as objective as possible.
At this point if something is banned it is far more likely that it was something uncompetitive rather than it being a case of something perfectly balanced being banned. And should that happen, maybe it would trigger reactions from the playerbase and generate discussion here? It's not like it can't be unbanned.
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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So going back to the issue, there's still a bunch of uncompetitiveness and unhealthyness in 1v1.
That's your opinion and not the opinion of majority of the player base.

It's not like 1v1 somehow already has the perfect banlist? I know that the other OM's partly achieve change thanks to people actively posting, but as I said, that's is not very likely to happen at all in this thread.
I'd argue it does, since the player base is not in favor of any change. When people thought Mega Kangaskhan was broken, they made an argument for it. When people wanted Perish Song gone, they fought for it. When people wanted Mega Salamence banned, you get what I'm saying. This thread not being active means that majority of the player base is satisfied with the current metagame.

At this point if something is banned it is far more likely that it was something uncompetitive rather than it being a case of something perfectly balanced being banned. And should that happen, maybe it would trigger reactions from the playerbase and generate discussion here? It's not like it can't be unbanned.
Banning something for the sake of creating discussion? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
That's your opinion and not the opinion of majority of the player base.


I'd argue it does, since the player base is not in favor of any change. When people thought Mega Kangaskhan was broken, they made an argument for it. When people wanted Perish Song gone, they fought for it. When people wanted Mega Salamence banned, you get what I'm saying. This thread not being active means that majority of the player base is satisfied with the current metagame.
I could provide reasons that back up my opinion, but it's very discouraging when the arguments go ignored, don't lead anywhere, and met with posts disregarding the etiquette guidelines I posted. My issue was that it seems that the validity of arguments matters less than the opinion of the majority of the playerbase in here.
I had to actively talk to people on PS and tell them to post about Perish Song, and the same with Mega Salamence. I had posted about both, but only after actively telling other people to post did something happen. And those were extreme cases that should be likely to cause complaints, and yet there was none until I posted and told people to post. Don't know how much you trust my judgement and my word, but after having laddered 1v1 for such a long time, I noticed that 1v1 players don't know or care about the 1v1 thread and don't consider the possibility for change even if they have complaints and problems with the meta. And as I said, people have adjusted to that the banlist has been pretty much the same for so long which makes change more unimaginable. And I'd argue that even if the majority of the playerbase is satisfied, the banlist could still not be perfect. If something is objectively broken and the majority of the playerbase is ok with it or oblivious to it, does that still make the banlist perfect?

Banning something for the sake of creating discussion? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
That's not what I said. I meant that if there's reluctance to ban something in fear of banning something perfectly balanced, that fear could be abandoned. And if that fear was valid, players might complain and that way it would be known if the decision to ban was problematic, which is where the discussion might come from. The discussion wasn't the goal.
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
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I could provide reasons that back up my opinion, but it's very discouraging when the arguments go ignored, don't lead anywhere, and met with posts disregarding the etiquette guidelines I posted. My issue was that it seems that the validity of arguments matters less than the opinion of the majority of the playerbase in here.
According to you it's valid, not according to everyone else. Since you mentioned my trust in your judgement, I'll say this: you have unconventional ideas. Your suggestions and arguments go nowhere because they are unwonted, not because people are ignoring you.

1v1 is not STABmons or any other minor metagame. It's the most played OM on Pokemon Showdown (after AG), and probably in the overall top 5 most popular non-random formats. I don't need to make decisions dictatorially; even if I did, it won't be in your favor, if I'm being honest. The player base can discuss any changes they think will improve the 1v1 metagame, and we go from there.
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Sorry if I am intervening, but if this discussion is alluding to the potential ban of Kyreum-B, I would 100% support it. The Ice Dragon destroys any wall not named Mega Aggron, Chansey and Deoxys-D (although Counter and Mirror Coat are conditional due to mixed attacking shenanigans) with the Choice Scarf set. Its amazing bulk, incredibly high offenses, and overall negative effect it has on the tier makes me believe its fully suspectworthy.
 
Sorry if I am intervening, but if this discussion is alluding to the potential ban of Kyreum-B, I would 100% support it. The Ice Dragon destroys any wall not named Mega Aggron, Chansey and Deoxys-D (although Counter and Mirror Coat are conditional due to mixed attacking shenanigans) with the Choice Scarf set. Its amazing bulk, incredibly high offenses, and overall negative effect it has on the tier makes me believe its fully suspectworthy.
you missed slowbro-mega (spd sets can beat spa kyube), and sableye-mega as sure counters.
You also dont have to hardwall kyurem to beat it. defensive tflame, specs/airballoon heatran, specs volcanion, whimsicott, scarf jirachi, scarf archeops, mew among others can beat kyurem depending on sets. I don't see how it is giving an overall negative effect to the metagame
 

Uselesscrab

suffering whiteout conditions
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you missed slowbro-mega (spd sets can beat spa kyube), and sableye-mega as sure counters.
You also dont have to hardwall kyurem to beat it. defensive tflame, specs/airballoon heatran, specs volcanion, whimsicott, scarf jirachi, scarf archeops, mew among others can beat kyurem depending on sets. I don't see how it is giving an overall negative effect to the metagame
To be fair, while I'm not sure how I would feel about a Kyurem-B ban, many of those Pokemon are unreliable against alternative sets like Specs or WP. For instance, Mega Slowbro is an extremely unreliable counter to Specs and has to have advance knowledge of the set, Whimsi loses to Specs Ice Beam, and Talonflame, some Heatran, and Scarf Jirachi can lose too.
 

Osra

⠓⠊⠂ ⠊⠄⠍ ⠙⠁⠊⠎⠽⠖
is a Pre-Contributor
That's your opinion and not the opinion of majority of the player base.

This thread not being active means that majority of the player base is satisfied with the current metagame.
To be fair, only a good 4-6 people on the top 100 of the current ladder even use smogon to my knowledge, let alone even actively post or interact on this particular page. Unfortunately, this means that most activity here is derived from some 1v1 "authority" trying to generate debate or activity through some kind of announcement or block of text post.
And even more unfortunate, I actually find myself agreeing with Rump for once. If suspects are done based on the general opinions of a lot of people that don't really know what they're doing, but are doing well simply because they're either lucky or just using good Pokemon at a good time seriously, some dude was about to top the ladder at 1750~ elo a couple days ago with Scarf Garchomp, hax shenanigans Togekiss, and Bisharp, then should that be the way we carry out any form of action for this meta?
I am unable to offer a perfect solution, as the meta itself is not perfect, and the tools we have to change it with aren't perfect either, but the best way I can think of to positively influence the meta in the best way possible is to use GXE in conjunction to a minimum set number of total battles as the rating format of choice for suspect tests, since, unlike ELO, you can't get it very high very quickly or easily without Godlike levels of luck or skill, and, unlike COIL, you can't just eventually work your way towards it by just doing an absurd amount of battles you can even just forfeit every single battle and your COIL will still progressively increase, it would take a very long time, but you could in theory just do that to reach the reqs . GXE, like ELO, goes up and down with each win or loss, but it takes into account the number of wins and losses you've had, which ultimately determine just how high it is; I also suggested having a minimum set number of total battles alongside the GXE req, just so that way it doesn't take a brief streak of good luck with 15-30~ battles to achieve the reqs. Ultimately, this will make suspect tests harder for people that aren't as good at 1v1, but it will at least (theoretically) make the end result of suspects more balanced in the interest of providing a healthy meta.

Before you tear me apart for having a different opinion from yours, please be aware that I have little knowledge of how leaders of a meta are usually supposed to make decisions on how to change the meta, and when I asked briefly in the OM room on Showdown, I was presented with a response in that it usually is mixed between what is healthy for the meta, as well as pandering out to what the majority of people participating demand, despite not really having any form of criteria to work off of; I personally just want what's best for the meta, regardless of how people feel about it, so if you sense any form of bias in that regard, please be aware that it is intended. And if you've read the above statements of Rumplestiltskin, you will hopefully understand that the problem we are experiencing right now is that what's healthy for the meta acts in a contradictory manner to what the people want; in no way am I supporting the ideas for bans he's suggesting, but from what I do know, I understand that he lurks around a lot, meaning that he at least knows how the thread acts, and as such, his statements regarding how the thread has been, as opposed to how the thread will be, are to be respected.

tl;dr 1v1 needs change right now, but nobody can really tell what in particular needs changing, and few really seem to care.

If I got anything wrong, please feel free to point them out to me in a respectful manner ^-^
 

The Immortal

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tl;dr 1v1 needs change right now, but nobody can really tell what in particular needs changing, and few really seem to care.
Fair enough Glyx. But if the few people don't agree then I'm not going to make a change. For example, literally nobody supported Rumple's Trick/Choice suspects a page or two ago. So move on instead of repeating the same the thing over and over.

See, like Funbot. Albeit he could have added more to his post to support his suspect suggestion, he's not bringing up something that the community (or "authority" as you put it) already decided isn't an issue.
 

DEG

degdeg
is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Here we are again, trying to ban something just to shake up discussion or the metagame. It has entered in a dead state, seeing same old Pokemon and repetitive sets because it's an OM, not a tier where we can get constant changes. Plus, its format is different than other OMs, we can't really switch out and create endless cores and toy with a lot of Pokemon. But, there's still a lot of Pokemon that can use competent sets in this metagame that are still undiscovered or considered not that useful. I'd like to trace a line between what's viable and what's not viable, in 1v1 called viable sets that can beat a good portion of the metagame even if it sounds weird, called unviable sets that cannot find a place in such meta, per instance Specs Dragonite IS viable but Banded Snorlax isn't. Sets are the reason we keep turning around ourselves without finding an escape, we do fixate ourselves on a specific set and not try to thing outside of the box. What stops Banded Aggron from being viable? What stops Scarf Archeops from shining? What stops Banded Azumarill from shining? Not the Pokemon in the metagame, but the player himself. We're in an age where players can't innovate here (no offense to the people above me, lol ik karl doesn't use common sets but just making a general remark) and keep on using the same sets which creates a dull metagame. Now, staying on the moveset argument, this does not justify bans. Yes, a Pokemon can run different movesets and the biggest example of it is Kyurem-Black, it has a lot of movesets that are viable from Choice Scarf to Choice Band and Choice Specs but most of them are beatable, Kyurem-B is victim of being unpredictable but what stops Dragonite from being unpredictable? It doesn't have the same power but has better coverage, what stops Mega Gyarados from being unpredictable? From Taunt to Sub, Crunch to Earthquake, Outrage and Waterfall, it's just not that obvious since it's a metagame called 1v1 that screams counter me!

Secondly, the suspect threads etiquette doesn't really work for 1v1 because it's not a metagame like others, we cannot switch, the terms of Checks and Counters change here since most things can adapt to check other Pokemon and still be viable unlike a 6 Pokemon team. It's our job to put the guidelines for our metagame so we don't tormented by such decisions from now on. The Immortal thoughts? Now, I would like to discuss what feels suspect worthy for other OMs or official tiers.

1) This Pokemon is extremely unhealthy because its overcentralizing (See RU suspect atm, Mega-Steelix)

We don't really have any overcentralizing threat in 1v1, looking at the usage stats of last month, the highest ranked Pokemon is in fact Kyurem-Black sitting at 17.1% which isn't a lot as we have other Pokemon that follows it closely such as Mega Charizard Y at 14.2% and Mega Mawile at 13.2%. That does not prove any point made thus far, Kyurem-Black isn't overcentralizing, and I'm pretty sure the counter-argument to this would be "But Mega Charizard Y and Mega Mawile ARE unhealthy also." This is a point that a lot of people will make, they are not unhealthy because they have more than 10% usages but because they are just good and can beat more Pokemon that others which is why they are common but that doesn't make them uncheckable by other Pokemon, per instance Mega Mawile is afraid of all Fire-type Pokemon, and can lose to a good number of special attackers counting Greninja and Porygon-Z unless its ''invested just to live against them'' which weakens its attacking and defensive against other Pokemon, double edged sword.

2) This Pokemon has a little to no checks and counters in the metagame.

Again here I can't really define what's a check and what's a counter in the metagame since we don't have specific guidelines, what's broken to me might be to you since we're more in a free zone. As an offensive player I find defensive Pokemon annoying to a lesser extent broken for me but they in no way deserve a ban because they balance the metagame, my playstyle loses to them but they are not broken in reality. Back to the list of Pokemon I was given consisting of Kyurem-B, Mega Mawile and Deoxys-D. For Kyurem-B checks that come to my head are Archeops, Chansey, Mega Slowbro, Mega Gyarados, Defensive Invested Porygon-Z, Meloetta, Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, and other lower Pokemon. I know these checks are based on ''Choice Scarf Kyurem-B'' and loses to other sets but if you use Specs Kyurem-B it opens up more hole to the Pokemon and the item can generally be predicted by the view of the team, is it a slow team? High change it's scarf. Is it a bulky team? It's Banded! Yea you can't really predict what the other user run but that's the hidden gem of 1v1 and what makes it interesting and entertaining, hazard, probabilities!

Next, I would like to talk about what we all are discussing for the past pages, the reason why we're punishing high used Pokemon. "If we ban Kyurem-B, Deoxys-D and Mega Mawile lower Pokemon will be able to shine and the game will be more balanced!" (Not attacking karl cause he suggested these Pokemon they are just to examples that are under my eyes, ily buddy and I respect your opnion" From a futuristic vision that's HIGHLY unlikely to happen, if we ban these Pokemon, I'm pretty sure were opening more holes in a metagame, do we realize that if we ban these Pokemon Charizard will get more usage being X or Y exceeding the healthy number? Then what do we do? Yup ban it. Then we get more usage from Porygon-Z and Chansey and we repeat the ban arguments and mention that they are also broken. The reason we're not doing that at this moment is because we don't really have a Pokemon that can punch through walls that easily. There's in no way, low tiered Pokemon will see usage unless we ban all S ranks, and some A rank Pokemon. This is why 1v1 UU exists.

Concerning the suspect tests, they are a good way to get the community involved and TI has done his best to restrict the reqs to the better people of this metagame and not let everyone decide our fate. Whether they decide to vote for ban or unban, it's still an opinion. For instance the Perish Song suspect was a good call and the results turned out bad for Perish Song as it was banned with a large majority while the Mega Salamence suspect ended with close votes. Now saying that Mega Salamence didn't get banned, its because we had split opinion, that doesn't make it less broken to people thinking it was broken, views change, what's a healthy meta? what's a broken meta? We have no fixed guidelines. Mega Salamence was banned which was good, and healthy for the people that voted ban but I still don't find it broken.

Noting the dullness of the metagame and the dead thread, it's probably because the metagame doesn't change a lot and its been around for so long that most issues were discussed and we're stuck in a ''1v1'' and not a ''team vs team'' situation. The thread isn't active because unlike other metagame our playerbase doesn't use Smogon that much or have nothing to discuss since we've tried a lot of projects to revive the thread but failed, that's why we're left with suspect discussion and stuff. I'm going to try finding a good topic to discuss after this one, but for now my final words are "I don't really believe anything is broken at this moment even if the metagame is repetitive, by banning some Pokemon we create a more unhealthy metagame and we don't really need that, also we need to fix specific guidelines to assure a healthy metagame for the rest of GEN 6 and a better metagame in GEN 7" Speaking of Gen 7, we're on the doors of change and I'm pretty sure this is gonna shake up the metagame like crazy.

As closing remarks, if you really find something wrong with what I said all along mention it, I probably won't have the time to make another big post as this but I'll reply (hopefully???). If you have another topic to spark up discussion in this thread being lower tier Pokemon, innovating sets and stuff, please share. Thanks!

tl;dr: lol no hf reading.
 
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lost heros

Meme Master
I am unable to offer a perfect solution, as the meta itself is not perfect, and the tools we have to change it with aren't perfect either, but the best way I can think of to positively influence the meta in the best way possible is to use GXE in conjunction to a minimum set number of total battles as the rating format of choice for suspect tests, since, unlike ELO, you can't get it very high very quickly or easily without Godlike levels of luck or skill, and, unlike COIL, you can't just eventually work your way towards it by just doing an absurd amount of battles you can even just forfeit every single battle and your COIL will still progressively increase, it would take a very long time, but you could in theory just do that to reach the reqs . GXE, like ELO, goes up and down with each win or loss, but it takes into account the number of wins and losses you've had, which ultimately determine just how high it is; I also suggested having a minimum set number of total battles alongside the GXE req, just so that way it doesn't take a brief streak of good luck with 15-30~ battles to achieve the reqs. Ultimately, this will make suspect tests harder for people that aren't as good at 1v1, but it will at least (theoretically) make the end result of suspects more balanced in the interest of providing a healthy meta.
RIP Me. I'm not going to quote you or hold you to any GXE and battle threshold you propose, but do you have any numbers in mind, so we can who and how many of the top 100 would qualify right now if something were being suspected?

As for Kyurem-B and Mega-Mawile, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to suspects of either of them. Mostly to see what the meta would look like without them, although I doubt much would change. They may not be over-centralizing in that they're on every team, but I do believe they're popular enough that a designated counter for them must be on every team else, you're going to have a bad time.
 

Knuckstrike

Hi I'm FIREEEE
I noticed the set that everyone uses on chansey got banned. What was the reasoning for this, and is there a thread with a suspect test or something?
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 16 HP / 64 Def / 252 SpD / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Will-o-Wisp


I was redoing my Mew's EV spread to creep Timid Deoxys-D, and found that I had quite a lot of EV's left over. As opposed to the primarily Physically defensive spread that I was using because Mew rarely has to take Special attacks, I decided on a mixed spread with significant emphasis on Special attacks. Even though this looks horribly unoptimized due to the fact that EV's are split between both defenses, this spread works like a charm.

In fact, you ALWAYS beat ALL variants of Meloetta and Specs Porygon-Z and beat Scarf Porygon-Z without Trick simply by clicking Knock Off turn 1.
Calcs: 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 16 HP / 252 SpD Mew: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meloetta does less than PZ so calcing Scarf is unnecessary and the Specs should be Knocked Off before it attacks.
Four Knock Offs do between 283 and 336 HP to Porygon-Z, which has 311 HP. (Trick, Hyper Beam, Recharge, Hyper Beam while you outspeed, if they went for hyper beam turn 1 just spam Roost to PP stall them out of hyper beam) TrickScarf Porygon-Z can beat this with good move selection
0 Atk Mew Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You outspeed Meloetta and 3HKO while it's stuck recharging.

While this spread does leave you WAY more vulnerable to Knock Off + Swords Dance Mega Mawile and Crunch Mega Gyarados, beating those two comes down to a 50/50 between Taunt and Wisp.
That's an inefficient spread, run 144 hp 0 defense and 188 spdef rest speed for more bulk on both sides of the spectrum.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
iirc I was trying to avoid specific KOs while still outspeeding deod, and I've since switched to 136/40/156/176 Jolly.
Simple tip:
If your HP is less than defense plus special defense, maxing HP maximizes bulk.
Example: on mew, you max HP. On hariyama or drifblim, with giant HP stats but low defenses, invest in defense and special defense.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
I don't know if here's the right place to suggest it, but this is an idea I had to bring activity to 1v1, as we seem to be in a bit of lull. I'm not quite sure if what I'm suggesting is allowed on Showdown, so I apologize in advance if it's not.

1v1 has been excluded for The OM premier league and the OMGS for a pretty good reason. It's not a full size battle, and better players can lose quickly because that's the nature of the format. Even in the daily tournament it's a double elimination, because the best player isn't decided in a single match. 1v1 is an inherently ladder based metagame, which is why it's so weird to play it in a tournament.

So what I'm suggesting is a ladder based tournament, where everyone who signs up is given an anonymous account provided by the host. Afterwards everyone has 15 days or so to ladder with that alt as high as they possibly can in the pre-existing 1v1 ladder. At the end of the time limit, the host would reveal the top three ladderers with screenshot proof. Idk, just an idea I had. What do you guys think?
 

The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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1v1 has been excluded for The OM premier league and the OMGS for a pretty good reason. It's not a full size battle, and better players can lose quickly because that's the nature of the format. Even in the daily tournament it's a double elimination, because the best player isn't decided in a single match. 1v1 is an inherently ladder based metagame, which is why it's so weird to play it in a tournament.
I'll share some information to correct your assumption. 1v1 was planned to be in the current OMPL. It was going to be bo5 and was practically set in stone. We removed it right before the commencement of OMPL so that we would have an even number of formats, which makes premier leagues more competitive. So no, it was not exactly excluded because of its nature. We simply didn't have space for it. Maybe next time!

So what I'm suggesting is a ladder based tournament, where everyone who signs up is given an anonymous account provided by the host. Afterwards everyone has 15 days or so to ladder with that alt as high as they possibly can in the pre-existing 1v1 ladder. At the end of the time limit, the host would reveal the top three ladderers with screenshot proof. Idk, just an idea I had. What do you guys think?
Some form of ladder based tournament, with rewards such as custom title or avatar, isn't a bad idea. Though, perhaps there needs to be some additional rule to make it interesting because as it stands, the good player with the most free time would likely win. Something like Megas are banned, or Monotype team, or Fire/Water/Grass team.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
I'll share some information to correct your assumption. 1v1 was planned to be in the current OMPL. It was going to be bo5 and was practically set in stone. We removed it right before the commencement of OMPL so that we would have an even number of formats, which makes premier leagues more competitive. So no, it was not exactly excluded because of its nature. We simply didn't have space for it. Maybe next time!
Ah interesting. I still think 1v1 is more fitted to the ladder than it is the tournament, but it's good to know that as a 1v1 main I might eventually have a spot in the OMPL.


Some form of ladder based tournament, with rewards such as custom title or avatar, isn't a bad idea. Though, perhaps there needs to be some additional rule to make it interesting because as it stands, the good player with the most free time would likely win. Something like Megas are banned, or Monotype team, or Fire/Water/Grass team.
I was worried about the most available player winning due to sheer volume of battles they'd do as well. Originally my idea was a 100 (or such) battle limit, but that's so hard to enforce and would generally revolve around the player self-reporting their ranking at their 100th battle.

The rules also are very difficult to enforce. The point of a ladder tour is for there to be a lot of battles, and there is no feasible way for a host to monitor all of those games to make sure those rules are being enforced. A UU 1v1 ladder tour I think would be a cool rule though if we were going to bet on the honesty of our players.
 

Osra

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is a Pre-Contributor
In regards to the tournament idea, that's something I've been wanting for 1v1 for a long time, but never really talked about it, since there were already other om tours going on at the time. Frankly, I'm thinking a 1v1 tour should be a best-of 5 round of battles per match up, or something akin to that, just so it doesn't last too short.

As for gimmicks, how about ban happy 1v1? :D

Hopefully my computer Internet will be working by then
 

lost heros

Meme Master
In regards to the tournament idea, that's something I've been wanting for 1v1 for a long time, but never really talked about it, since there were already other om tours going on at the time. Frankly, I'm thinking a 1v1 tour should be a best-of 5 round of battles per match up, or something akin to that, just so it doesn't last too short.

As for gimmicks, how about ban happy 1v1? :D

Hopefully my computer Internet will be working by then
That would be a lot of banned things.
 

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