get on my level
We've known about this for a while tbh (I remember discussing it in the OM chat at least a couple weeks ago). I believe TI said it was a pain in the ass to code it though, so I'm not sure if it's implemented on main.
I know these guidelines were broken multiple times in different discussions here, and I could give examples, but that's not the point of this post this time.Suspect Threads Etiquette
I am seeing some repeated arguments, I am just going to do a quick summary post.
- Firstly, if you make a checks or counters argument, the very first thing you need to do is make sure you have the correct terminology. A check, is something that cannot exactly switch in safely, but can often win a "1v1", or revenge kill the Pokemon in question. A counter is something that can 100% switch in and hard wall, or force an unfavourable situation for said Pokemon.
- Secondly, just because something lacks counters / checks does NOT mean it is instantly broken. Cube, BW Hydreigon etc were / are all impossible to switch into, but that does not instantly make them broken. However, if something DOES have checks and counters, this doesn't make it NOT broken either. Genesect had counters, Aegislash had counters (specific to its set) and so on. Also, take not that if you parade around a collection of shitty mons that situationally counter a suspect, I will flat out delete your post. It might even give you an infraction. I know that myself and pretty much every other OU mod is tired of seeing people discuss Arcanine, Weezing, Quillfish and pretty much anything else. Hint: If you are using garbage mons to check a top-tier sweeper, then its potentially a good indicator as to how unhealthy it is.
- Thirdly, just because you beat Mega Mawile while you have an Elo rating of 1000 does not mean it's not broken. If you want to use battle statistics in your argument, look at the top tier battles, the VR posters, the Tourney scene, use really good examples. It's much harder to refuse your points if you are a highly respected battler, usually because it means people trust and respect your opinion, regardless as to which way you vote. The lower you are on the ladder, the less Mega Mawile will be used successfully and intelligently, so please bear that in mind.
- Fourthly, if you use the argument; "LOL MEGA MAWILE SUCKS I JUST OHKO IT WITH EQ GGGGGGGGGGG", I will infract you. No question. All of us are (mostly), intelligent and have the ability to read. We all know how to look at a type chart, and you stating the obvious just makes you look like an utter retard that's out of his/her depth, and thus shouldn't be posting here.
-Fifthly, Fact Check. There is nothing more retarded than posting a sweeping statement that's incorrect. For instance, several people brought up earthquake from several mons as methods of dealing with Mawile. Many of these people failed to realize EQ missed a KO, and thus looked like morons. According to an IRC convo, someone who's opinion I trust remarked that Mega Mawile for instance, actually beats Gliscor provided it used SD on the switch in, tanks the Earthquake, and smokes Gliscor with a +2 Play Rough. I'm not sure if residual damage is required to do all that but the point is, don't take short cuts; we all have damage calculators, and we WILL call you out on it if you fucked up. I'm exempt from this rule because I'm a mod.
- Sixthly, don't assume a suspect (say Mega Mawile) will stay in on your Sun boosted, Blaze boosted Choice Specs Overheat. An earlier argument I saw was someone posting a load of calculations and saying "LOL MAWILE GETS OHKOed BY CHANDELURE". That's A+ logic mate, but Mega Mawile isn't setting up on a Charizard Y, instead, it's coming in on a choice locked dragon move, a resisted attack, a -1 Pokemon that lacks an effective means to do severe damage, etc. Posting a list of Pokemon that can OHKO Mega Mawile means jack shit if you need to sacrifice a Pokemon to get your check in safely. Its not setting up, and its not staying in.
- Seventhly, be careful of the "Prediction argument". IT GOES BOTH WAYS. Really clever posters will use the risk reward prediction argument, which is a good one. If you want a breakdown about it, I'm sure many experienced players will be able to tell you, but the point is, you don't have godlike prediction skills, so I don't want to see posts like "I will go to Heatran on a play rough, then go to Gengar on a Focus Punch, then use Substitute on the Sucker Punch and then use Will-o-Wisp on a second Sucker Punch. You are not clairvoyant, nor is your opponent, so don't pretend otherwise.
- Eighthly, make sure your post actually bring some sort of discussion to it. The posts I see that are just "yea so Mega Mawile has high attack power so I think it's broken" not only have terrible arguments but add NOTHING to the discussion. I'm not asking you to make a novel, but please make sure your post has a depth of reasoning and quality behind it. If you cannot be bothered putting through into it, then quite frankly, I cannot be bothered reading it. In general, the better your arguments are (detail, reasoning etc), the better of the overall quality of your post, and the better chance you have of influencing people to see things your way. Therefore, if you feel strong about a particular suspect, it is in your interest to make your post as well reasoned as possible, because if you half-ass it, then you are convincing no-one.
- Ninethly, don't mention how good / not good a Pokemon will be in Ubers. We don't care. Usage in Ubers has no impact on if we ban / not ban something. It could be garbage in Ubers but if its unhealthy for the OU metagame then it goes, no exceptions.
- FINALLY don't discuss past or future tiering. I couldn't care less if you feel salty about the Aegislash ban, and I don't give a shit that you feel that Thundurus-I should be suspected first. Likewise for the love of god, DON'T, DON'T say "but if we ban Mega Mawile, suddenly haxorus becomes broken", like in one post I read. We do not keep broken things within OU to check others, so please don't try this argument. Furthermore, don't whinge that your precious mon might be garbage in Ubers - we don't use it as a point of reference. It could get less usage that Magikarp in Ubers and we don't care - its not relevant. Likewise, please don't bitch or rage that your fanboy favourite just got suspect tested and might, be banned, use calm logic and reasoning and you will do a heck of a lot of a better job convincing others to see your side instead of posting shit like "FUCK SMOGON IT HATES ON MEGAS AND WANTS TO BAN THEM ALL I HATE THIS SITE".
That's your opinion and not the opinion of majority of the player base.So going back to the issue, there's still a bunch of uncompetitiveness and unhealthyness in 1v1.
I'd argue it does, since the player base is not in favor of any change. When people thought Mega Kangaskhan was broken, they made an argument for it. When people wanted Perish Song gone, they fought for it. When people wanted Mega Salamence banned, you get what I'm saying. This thread not being active means that majority of the player base is satisfied with the current metagame.It's not like 1v1 somehow already has the perfect banlist? I know that the other OM's partly achieve change thanks to people actively posting, but as I said, that's is not very likely to happen at all in this thread.
Banning something for the sake of creating discussion? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.At this point if something is banned it is far more likely that it was something uncompetitive rather than it being a case of something perfectly balanced being banned. And should that happen, maybe it would trigger reactions from the playerbase and generate discussion here? It's not like it can't be unbanned.
I could provide reasons that back up my opinion, but it's very discouraging when the arguments go ignored, don't lead anywhere, and met with posts disregarding the etiquette guidelines I posted. My issue was that it seems that the validity of arguments matters less than the opinion of the majority of the playerbase in here.That's your opinion and not the opinion of majority of the player base.
I'd argue it does, since the player base is not in favor of any change. When people thought Mega Kangaskhan was broken, they made an argument for it. When people wanted Perish Song gone, they fought for it. When people wanted Mega Salamence banned, you get what I'm saying. This thread not being active means that majority of the player base is satisfied with the current metagame.
That's not what I said. I meant that if there's reluctance to ban something in fear of banning something perfectly balanced, that fear could be abandoned. And if that fear was valid, players might complain and that way it would be known if the decision to ban was problematic, which is where the discussion might come from. The discussion wasn't the goal.Banning something for the sake of creating discussion? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
According to you it's valid, not according to everyone else. Since you mentioned my trust in your judgement, I'll say this: you have unconventional ideas. Your suggestions and arguments go nowhere because they are unwonted, not because people are ignoring you.I could provide reasons that back up my opinion, but it's very discouraging when the arguments go ignored, don't lead anywhere, and met with posts disregarding the etiquette guidelines I posted. My issue was that it seems that the validity of arguments matters less than the opinion of the majority of the playerbase in here.
you missed slowbro-mega (spd sets can beat spa kyube), and sableye-mega as sure counters.Sorry if I am intervening, but if this discussion is alluding to the potential ban of Kyreum-B, I would 100% support it. The Ice Dragon destroys any wall not named Mega Aggron, Chansey and Deoxys-D (although Counter and Mirror Coat are conditional due to mixed attacking shenanigans) with the Choice Scarf set. Its amazing bulk, incredibly high offenses, and overall negative effect it has on the tier makes me believe its fully suspectworthy.
To be fair, while I'm not sure how I would feel about a Kyurem-B ban, many of those Pokemon are unreliable against alternative sets like Specs or WP. For instance, Mega Slowbro is an extremely unreliable counter to Specs and has to have advance knowledge of the set, Whimsi loses to Specs Ice Beam, and Talonflame, some Heatran, and Scarf Jirachi can lose too.you missed slowbro-mega (spd sets can beat spa kyube), and sableye-mega as sure counters.
You also dont have to hardwall kyurem to beat it. defensive tflame, specs/airballoon heatran, specs volcanion, whimsicott, scarf jirachi, scarf archeops, mew among others can beat kyurem depending on sets. I don't see how it is giving an overall negative effect to the metagame
To be fair, only a good 4-6 people on the top 100 of the current ladder even use smogon to my knowledge, let alone even actively post or interact on this particular page. Unfortunately, this means that most activity here is derived from some 1v1 "authority" trying to generate debate or activity through some kind of announcement or block of text post.That's your opinion and not the opinion of majority of the player base.
This thread not being active means that majority of the player base is satisfied with the current metagame.
Fair enough Glyx. But if the few people don't agree then I'm not going to make a change. For example, literally nobody supported Rumple's Trick/Choice suspects a page or two ago. So move on instead of repeating the same the thing over and over.tl;dr 1v1 needs change right now, but nobody can really tell what in particular needs changing, and few really seem to care.
RIP Me. I'm not going to quote you or hold you to any GXE and battle threshold you propose, but do you have any numbers in mind, so we can who and how many of the top 100 would qualify right now if something were being suspected?I am unable to offer a perfect solution, as the meta itself is not perfect, and the tools we have to change it with aren't perfect either, but the best way I can think of to positively influence the meta in the best way possible is to use GXE in conjunction to a minimum set number of total battles as the rating format of choice for suspect tests, since, unlike ELO, you can't get it very high very quickly or easily without Godlike levels of luck or skill, and, unlike COIL, you can't just eventually work your way towards it by just doing an absurd amount of battles
you can even just forfeit every single battle and your COIL will still progressively increase, it would take a very long time, but you could in theory just do that to reach the reqs. GXE, like ELO, goes up and down with each win or loss, but it takes into account the number of wins and losses you've had, which ultimately determine just how high it is; I also suggested having a minimum set number of total battles alongside the GXE req, just so that way it doesn't take a brief streak of good luck with 15-30~ battles to achieve the reqs. Ultimately, this will make suspect tests harder for people that aren't as good at 1v1, but it will at least (theoretically) make the end result of suspects more balanced in the interest of providing a healthy meta.
Im on mobile but there was no suspect. Seismic Toss+Charm was illegal due to breeding factors but it wasn't implemented on PS!I noticed the set that everyone uses on chansey got banned. What was the reasoning for this, and is there a thread with a suspect test or something?
That's an inefficient spread, run 144 hp 0 defense and 188 spdef rest speed for more bulk on both sides of the spectrum.Mew @ Leftovers
EVs: 16 HP / 64 Def / 252 SpD / 176 Spe
- Knock Off
I was redoing my Mew's EV spread to creep Timid Deoxys-D, and found that I had quite a lot of EV's left over. As opposed to the primarily Physically defensive spread that I was using because Mew rarely has to take Special attacks, I decided on a mixed spread with significant emphasis on Special attacks. Even though this looks horribly unoptimized due to the fact that EV's are split between both defenses, this spread works like a charm.
In fact, you ALWAYS beat ALL variants of Meloetta and Specs Porygon-Z and beat Scarf Porygon-Z without Trick simply by clicking Knock Off turn 1.
Calcs: 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 16 HP / 252 SpD Mew: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meloetta does less than PZ so calcing Scarf is unnecessary and the Specs should be Knocked Off before it attacks.
Four Knock Offs do between 283 and 336 HP to Porygon-Z, which has 311 HP. (Trick, Hyper Beam, Recharge, Hyper Beam while you outspeed, if they went for hyper beam turn 1 just spam Roost to PP stall them out of hyper beam)TrickScarf Porygon-Z can beat this with good move selection
0 Atk Mew Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You outspeed Meloetta and 3HKO while it's stuck recharging.
While this spread does leave you WAY more vulnerable to Knock Off + Swords Dance Mega Mawile and Crunch Mega Gyarados, beating those two comes down to a 50/50 between Taunt and Wisp.
Simple tip:iirc I was trying to avoid specific KOs while still outspeeding deod, and I've since switched to 136/40/156/176 Jolly.
I'll share some information to correct your assumption. 1v1 was planned to be in the current OMPL. It was going to be bo5 and was practically set in stone. We removed it right before the commencement of OMPL so that we would have an even number of formats, which makes premier leagues more competitive. So no, it was not exactly excluded because of its nature. We simply didn't have space for it. Maybe next time!1v1 has been excluded for The OM premier league and the OMGS for a pretty good reason. It's not a full size battle, and better players can lose quickly because that's the nature of the format. Even in the daily tournament it's a double elimination, because the best player isn't decided in a single match. 1v1 is an inherently ladder based metagame, which is why it's so weird to play it in a tournament.
Some form of ladder based tournament, with rewards such as custom title or avatar, isn't a bad idea. Though, perhaps there needs to be some additional rule to make it interesting because as it stands, the good player with the most free time would likely win. Something like Megas are banned, or Monotype team, or Fire/Water/Grass team.So what I'm suggesting is a ladder based tournament, where everyone who signs up is given an anonymous account provided by the host. Afterwards everyone has 15 days or so to ladder with that alt as high as they possibly can in the pre-existing 1v1 ladder. At the end of the time limit, the host would reveal the top three ladderers with screenshot proof. Idk, just an idea I had. What do you guys think?
Ah interesting. I still think 1v1 is more fitted to the ladder than it is the tournament, but it's good to know that as a 1v1 main I might eventually have a spot in the OMPL.I'll share some information to correct your assumption. 1v1 was planned to be in the current OMPL. It was going to be bo5 and was practically set in stone. We removed it right before the commencement of OMPL so that we would have an even number of formats, which makes premier leagues more competitive. So no, it was not exactly excluded because of its nature. We simply didn't have space for it. Maybe next time!
I was worried about the most available player winning due to sheer volume of battles they'd do as well. Originally my idea was a 100 (or such) battle limit, but that's so hard to enforce and would generally revolve around the player self-reporting their ranking at their 100th battle.Some form of ladder based tournament, with rewards such as custom title or avatar, isn't a bad idea. Though, perhaps there needs to be some additional rule to make it interesting because as it stands, the good player with the most free time would likely win. Something like Megas are banned, or Monotype team, or Fire/Water/Grass team.
That would be a lot of banned things.In regards to the tournament idea, that's something I've been wanting for 1v1 for a long time, but never really talked about it, since there were already other om tours going on at the time. Frankly, I'm thinking a 1v1 tour should be a best-of 5 round of battles per match up, or something akin to that, just so it doesn't last too short.
As for gimmicks, how about ban happy 1v1? :D
Hopefully my computer Internet will be working by then