Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]

Rosa

Merry Kerosene
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After the last round of suspect Mega Salamence was banned and Blaziken wasn't allowed to stay in the 1v1 territory, on another note we might see an illegality in the standard Charm+Seismic Toss Chansey set (This hasn't been confirmed 100% yet). That sends us to a new world of 1v1, removing an offensive threat from the metagame freeing a team slot and we could see the fall of a defensive wall, that opens spots to new 1v1 heros. Which Pokemon do you think will arise and envelop itself with a cape? Is the metagame in a healthy state or are there more holes? Do you think we will call another ascended Pokemon to lend us a hand?

New heroes are born everyday implicitly, it is our duty to find them. I packed up my stuff and went on a journey disguised as a 1v1 schoolgirl to study the comportment of Pokemon in the 1v1 land. I was welcomed by a mass of new Pokemon trying to make up a name for themselves in the area now that others are gone. I walked through the city took notes on my notebook then sat on the back of a my Kyurem-Black and organized my information, this is what I've come to:


The disappearing of Mega Salamence made a lot of offensive threats more viable, I mean they weren't bad before but they just got better! What I have noticed in my exploration is that we got a rise in Mega Pinsir. It was shadowed by Mega Salamence thanks to a better typing and move pool yet sharing the same ability. Let's stop for a moment at Mega Pinsir.


Target Name: Mega Pinsir
Ability: Aerilate
Useful acquired moves: Endure, Protect, Giga Impact, Flail, Feint, Quick Attack, Close Combat, Sword Dance, Return, Earthquake
Threat Rank: A

After collecting these information about Mega Pinsir, I started noting common sets it can toy with to prey on the foe's Pokemon, it uses its wings to fly around and cause damage, steel Pokemon tries to break it but they are sent back home with a Close Combat or an Earthquake. What are the most effective Pinsir sets you say? I'll show you!

Set name: Can you endure the wind?
Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter/Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Endure
- Flail
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake / Close Combat

Thanks to its capability of learning Endure, Pinsir can utilize a powerful flail set. Endure allows Pinsir to concentrate its force in its body shielding it from strong attacks making it live with 1 HP, that's not bad because Flail has more power when the user has less HP left which makes reducing Pinsir HP to as minimal as possible to trump card behind this set. Well, in case Flail doesn't OHKO Quick attack is here to save the day, let's not forget that both of them gains STAB and are boosted by Aerilate! Earthquake is present to take on pesky steel types, (Even though it doesn't beat them most of the time) or you can opt for the alternative Close Combat which doesn't care about air balloons (Yes you heatran). It can toy with two abilities before Mega Evolving, hyper cutter or mold breaker. While Mold breaker is better at defeating sturdy users it doesn't really need it because Hyper Cutter has more advantages. How so? Intimidate! The use of Intimidate has become redundant from Mega Gyarados to Mega Mawile they are able to check Mega Pinsir easier with Intimidate but worry not Hyper Cutter allows it to not feel intimidated and keeps it composure so it can defeat them!

Set name: Salamence 2.0
Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect / Sword Dance
- Giga Impact
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake / Close Combat

Hmm, what's better than a good ol' Mega Salamence set incarnated in Mega Pinsir? Well there's nothing to add here except the fact that protect is used to outspeed Charizard after Mega Evolving, or you can opt for Sword Dance for better wall breaking capabilities.

Pokemon that it can beat: Charizard-Mega-Y, Gardevoir-Mega, Meloetta, Sylveon, Gyarados, Venusaur-Mega
Pokemon that it loses to: Bulky fire types, Kyurem-Black, Heatran, Aggron, Dragonite, Garchomp
Possibility of beating: Charizard-Mega-X, Porygon-Z, Lopunny-Mega
Good Teamates: Mega Pinsir likes to pair with Pokemon that can take on steel types and other problematic Pokemon; Kyurem-Black, Charizard-Mega-X, Porygon-Z, Mawile Mega, Heatran.

Other offensive threat will see more usage such as Mega Gyarados, Dragonite, Garchomp now that Mega Salamence left the metagame adding to that the lack of Chansey also gives offensive threats a Pokemon less to worry about, head over Playstyle archetype to know such physical offensive threats. Noting that I will be needing help to complete the guide if you want to help hmu with a PM.

As for a solid defensive backbone, Mega Slowbro has proved itself to be the one. Indeed, it has high defensive stats which paired with a physically offensive metagame pays off. It has the ability to keep in check a lot of viable Pokemon such as Kyurem-Black, Mega Mawile, Mega Charizard X (Now only if it had charm!). However Mega Slowbro doesn't have specially defensive stats to mix with its defensive stats but that doesn't make it a defensive threat! Let's not forget it's movepool and typing that works well together.


Target Name: Mega Slowbro
Ability: Shell Armor
Useful acquired moves: Iron Defense, Amnesia, Rest, Slack Off, Scald, Thunder Wave, Flame Thrower, Foul Play.
Threat Rank: A

Set Name: How do I die again?
Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Amnesia
- Rest / Slack Off
- Scald

Thanks to Iron Defense, it can boost its defenses faster than most setup sweepers can boost their offensive stats and proceed to burn its foes with Scald and slowly whittle them down or PP stall them if they have recovery. While normally this tactic would be thwarted by a single crit, Mega Slowbro's ability comes in handy here, giving it an immunity to them. Like the offensive Pokemon, it has a number of options: Rest allows it to beat status users and PP stall a lot of other common stall Pokemon, while Slack Off allows it to do better against offensive Pokemon, such as allowing it to beat Mega Mawile without having to fish for a burn. It can run Calm Mind over Amnesia to bolster its offensive presence, and it can even run Counter to catch physical attackers by surprise.
Thanks Articuno I for that.

Pokemon it beats: Most physical attackers notably Mega Mawile, Kyurem-Black, Mega Charizard X, Sawk, Mega Pinsir
Pokemon it loses to: Most special attackers notably Porygon-Z, Meloetta, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Venusaur
Good Team mates: Meloetta, Kyurem-Black, Latios, Deoxys-Defense.

Minimal changes were brought to the metagame after Mega Salamence's ban, Greninja can now run Modest as it no longer needs to outspeed a specific Pokemon, random ice beam users can now opens a spot for a better move, Kyurem-Black can now go full physical oriented without worrying about packing Ice Beam.

That's all thanks for reading. Which Pokemon do you think got better? Anything worth banning? Share your opinion!
I'd write more but I got too lazy...



Very well-made post! Although there is one thing that jumped out at me for Mega-Pinsir's bio;
"Pokemon that it loses to: Kyurem-Black"

It would seem that Pinsir would lose to something with distinct type advantages such as that, BUT;
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 228-270 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now that Physical Kyube, the most common Kyube, is no longer limited to needing Ice Beam all too much, a general Scarf Kyurem-B simply cannot OHKO Pinsir without resorting to either using Ice Beam, going Adamant/Lonely/Naughty, or using Rock coverage, but even then, the Pinsir could simply not Mega Evolve to tank the Ice Beam/Fusion Bolt, hit hard with Close Combat, and then Mega Evolve to have a relatively solid chance of finishing off the Kyurem with Quick Attack, or a guaranteed chance of finishing it off, if the Pinsir happens to be Adamant.
 
Uncommon, but I found Mega-Banette to be very useful against Choiced Pokemon:



Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Disable
- Will-O-Wisp
- Phantom Force/Shadow Sneak/Filler

- Frisk allows you to see what item your opponent holds
- Protect is for a save Mega Evolution
- Disable is used to block your opponent's attack after you went for Protect (IF they are choiced; if not, it is still fun to use >:D)
- Will-O-Wisp for constant damage after each turn
- Phantom Force or whatever you desire to attack. DON'T go for Knock Off, though!


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-340552681
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
After having stopped laddering for a while, I thought "maybe I was exaggerating, maybe it wasn't as bad as I thought", I tried laddering once again, and at first glance and initial experience it wasn't all that bad, but after laddering for some time and playing on high ladder for a while, the same issues I've brought up here before made themselves very apparent. I tried to ignore them, convincing myself they weren't a big deal, but once again, laddering became a bad experience due to these problems.
It's very frustrating trying to play a meta you like and being pretty much forced to stop playing because of this.

As not everything can be discussed or fixed at once, I'm bringing up the Trick problem this time. We discussed this problem here, starting with this post, into the next page, and briefly on page 24 as well.
To anyone who would want to discuss this: Could you please read every post of the entire previous discussion about this first?
(Also as a side note, I would like to add that the checklist in my initial post was made as a quick overview of what TrickChoice can beat, and not that it beats any and all of those strats listed every time)
It has been a while since anything else was said about this subject, but the problem persists, and I'm hoping this doesn't go ignored.

I know most players won't specifically get the move Trick used on them, instead they will face some attacks and not think much of it. But this is a real problem, and some pokes (the main abusers) become very unmanageable when having both the power of a choice item (not scarf), and the life-saving, get-out-of-jail, insta-win utility of Trick / Switcheroo available to deal with other approaches than the usual "which poke can KO the other 1st".

I really hope this discussion doesn't derail into a "just use this" and "just use that" kind of argumentation again, and I would like if at least these points from my initial post got addressed:
  • Mail's absence
  • 1v1's difference from 6v6
 
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Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
After having stopped laddering for a while, I thought "maybe I was exaggerating, maybe it wasn't as bad as I thought", I tried laddering once again, and at first glance and initial experience it wasn't all that bad, but after laddering for some time and playing on high ladder for a while, the same issues I've brought up here before made themselves very apparent. I tried to ignore them, convincing myself they weren't a big deal, but once again, laddering became a bad experience due to these problems.
It's very frustrating trying to play a meta you like and being pretty much forced to stop playing because of this.

As not everything can be discussed or fixed at once, I'm bringing up the Trick problem this time. We discussed this problem here, starting with this post, into the next page, and briefly on page 24 as well.
To anyone who would want to discuss this: Could you please read every post of the entire previous discussion about this first?
(Also as a side note, I would like to add that the checklist in my initial post was made as a quick overview of what TrickChoice can beat, and not that it beats any and all of those strats listed every time)
It has been a while since anything else was said about this subject, but the problem persists, and I'm hoping this doesn't go ignored.

I know most players won't specifically get the move Trick used on them, instead they will face some attacks and not think much of it. But this is a real problem, and some pokes (the main abusers) become very unmanageable when having both the power of a choice item (not scarf), and the life-saving, get-out-of-jail, insta-win utility of Trick / Switcheroo available to deal with other approaches than the usual "which poke can KO the other 1st".

I really hope this discussion doesn't derail into a "just use this" and "just use that" kind of argumentation again, and I would like if at least these points from my initial post got addressed:
  • Mail's absence
  • 1v1's difference from 6v6
So your main argument about trickchoice, as quoted from your original post is TrickChoice beats every non-mega in 1v1 that doesn't rely on 1 move only.
You then continue to say what all trickchoice beats. So, first, I don't think "Relying on 1 move" is a problem, its actually pretty common. Charizard is relying on fire blast, greninja relies on whatever 1 move hits SE, kyurem relies on outrage. Second, lets think about what beats trickchoice.

Obvious answers:
1. Any Mega: GG (Ex: Gyarados)
2. Anything that outspeeds and OHKOs: This is obvious as it wins against anything, but needs to be said. (Ex: Scarf Tyrantrum)
Other:
3. Outspeeds and Substitute: Locks you into trick, you lose (Ex: Keldeo)
4. Outspeed/Prankster Disable: Makes you struggle to death (Ex: Alakazam/Banette)
5. Choice users: If I'm specs, and you trick me a specs, I just got off a free attack, and you're back where you started (Ex: Meloetta)

I'm sure there are plenty of other ways, but these are the ones that quickly came to mind. This is obviously just talking about what beats trick not other moves, but you are specifically discussing trick. Also, most of these will still win against the other moves as well. I hope I demonstrated that much more beats trickchoice than you lead onto, and trickchoice doesn't beat nearly as much as you say.

Now, if we want to talk about choice items in general, and their healthiness for 1v1, that's a different discussion.
 
It isn't a problem for everything that learns Trick. I do not agree with a Trick+Choice suspect. It is a complex and unnecessary ban. If certain Pokemon that can utilize this strategy are deemed broken then we can ban said Pokemon.
some pokes become very unmanageable when having both the power of a choice item, and the life-saving, get-out-of-jail, insta-win utility of Trick / Switcheroo available to deal with other approaches
I suggest you bring up said Pokemon to be suspected because Trick+Choice isn't going to be.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Radical idea coming up:

I have an idea to freshen up the meta, while diversifying it and making teambuilding more thoughtful. The idea is: Mega Clause

Under Mega Clause, each team may only have one mega stone. This eliminates the standard 1v1 team that everyone runs: Mega Dos, Mega Zard X/Y, Kyurem, and much more. My reasoning is that megas really dominate the meta, as there is no opportunity cost as there is in 6v6, and megas are just, well, powerful. With this clause, players would have to go deeper into the pool of viable threats to fill holes in their team, leading to more diversity, creativity, and fun!

How I see the teambuilding process going:
1. Choose a mega, build to beat as many threats as possible
2. Choose 2 sidekicks. They must cover up any weaknesses that the mega has, as well as defeat as much of the meta as possible.

This leaves people really building around a mega as there main threat, and then trying to create a synergy with it. To me, this sounds much better than a meta where zard takes down 75% of the meta, as does gyarados, so there is really no intense thought involved

But LaxLapras, you can't use more than one mega at once in this meta, your idea is dumb and you are dumb.

Well, yes, you cannot use more than one mega at a time. However, in regular tiers, using a mega has an opportunity cost in that you cannot have any other megas on your team. This rule exists since megas are so dominant over regular mons. In 1v1 this opportunity cost does not exist, which honestly makes megas even stronger.

tl;dr
1 mega per team cuz its fun
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
So your main argument about trickchoice, as quoted from your original post is TrickChoice beats every non-mega in 1v1 that doesn't rely on 1 move only.
You then continue to say what all trickchoice beats. So, first, I don't think "Relying on 1 move" is a problem, its actually pretty common. Charizard is relying on fire blast, greninja relies on whatever 1 move hits SE, kyurem relies on outrage.
So in other words, you are saying that since status quo is what it is, there are no problems? I'm saying that Trick holds back too many pokes and strats because it forces pokes and strats capable of winning by just clicking 1 move to be used, but you're saying since there are pokes that do just that, and are common, "relying on 1 move" isn't a problem.

Second, lets think about what beats trickchoice.

Obvious answers:
1. Any Mega: GG (Ex: Gyarados)
2. Anything that outspeeds and OHKOs: This is obvious as it wins against anything, but needs to be said. (Ex: Scarf Tyrantrum)
Other:
3. Outspeeds and Substitute: Locks you into trick, you lose (Ex: Keldeo)
4. Outspeed/Prankster Disable: Makes you struggle to death (Ex: Alakazam/Banette)
5. Choice users: If I'm specs, and you trick me a specs, I just got off a free attack, and you're back where you started (Ex: Meloetta)

I'm sure there are plenty of other ways, but these are the ones that quickly came to mind. This is obviously just talking about what beats trick not other moves, but you are specifically discussing trick.
Why are you listing things that already have been discussed and deemed irrelevant?
And saying that I'm "specifically discussing trick", seriously? No one in their right mind would run a poke with just the move trick. And no one in their right mind would use Trick against: "1. Any Mega", "2/3. Anything that outspeeds", "5. Choice users", aka offence. Listing these "answers" doesn't accomplish anything against my case, since the pokes that use trick have their own stats, typings and 3 more moves, that are very relevant to this case, and are a force to be reckoned with on their own.

Also, most of these will still win against the other moves as well. I hope I demonstrated that much more beats trickchoice than you lead onto, and trickchoice doesn't beat nearly as much as you say.

Now, if we want to talk about choice items in general, and their healthiness for 1v1, that's a different discussion.
"1. Any Mega: GG (Ex: Gyarados)" - Already discussed and proven that megas don't necessarily beat Trick pokes at all.
"2. Anything that outspeeds and OHKOs: This is obvious as it wins against anything, but needs to be said. (Ex: Scarf Tyrantrum)" - Obviously, but this doesn't help against my case at all, and this is in fact even used as part of my argument against Trick.
"3. Outspeeds and Substitute: Locks you into trick, you lose (Ex: Keldeo)"
- Just simply untrue that just using sub would beat a choiced poke attacking you.
"4. Outspeed/Prankster Disable: Makes you struggle to death (Ex: Alakazam/Banette)"
- This was also brought up, and the issue was that "Outspeed disable" is just 1 poke, Alakazam, and is not that good of a poke in 1v1 in high ladder, and you shouldn't be forced to use it in a healthy meta. Same goes for "Prankster disable", aka mega Banette, a single poke, a not very good poke, and same goes here, you shouldn't be forced to use it.
"5. Choice users: If I'm specs, and you trick me a specs, I just got off a free attack, and you're back where you started (Ex: Meloetta)"
- How do other pokes beat these trick pokes attacking them just by holding a choice item?

So no, you have not demonstrated that much more beats TrickChoice than I lead onto.
And I don't want to talk about choice items in general, they are perfectly balanced out by that you are locked into 1 move, and if a poke becomes too strong in 1v1 because of the power given by the choice item then it should be suspected.


Which brings me to:
It isn't a problem for everything that learns Trick. I do not agree with a Trick+Choice suspect. It is a complex and unnecessary ban. If certain Pokemon that can utilize this strategy are deemed broken, such as Victini, then we can ban said Pokemon.
I suggest you bring up said Pokemon to be suspected because Trick+Choice isn't going to be.
The thing is that these choiced Trick abusing pokes wouldn't be banworthy in my opinion if they weren't able to use Trick, because they would have many more answers if that was the case.
And if Trick+Choice is too complex I say just ban Trick itself, which wouldn't be too complex in that case.


some pokes (the main abusers) become very unmanageable when having both the power of a choice item (not scarf), and the life-saving, get-out-of-jail, insta-win utility of Trick / Switcheroo available to deal with other approaches
So yeah, these pokes (the main abusers), are mainly Victini, Meloetta, and Porygon-Z, and they, as I said, wouldn't be banworthy if they didn't have Trick. And looking at the other Trick pokes, while they aren't as unmanageable when approached by using anything that does rely on 1 move and megas, they still invalidate everything that doesn't rely on 1 move only, which I'm arguing is unhealthy for the meta. At least 3 bans can be avoided by just banning Trick, the move that breaks these pokes in the 1st place, and causes very unhealthy matches in general.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
So in other words, you are saying that since status quo is what it is, there are no problems? I'm saying that Trick holds back too many pokes and strats because it forces pokes and strats capable of winning by just clicking 1 move to be used, but you're saying since there are pokes that do just that, and are common, "relying on 1 move" isn't a problem.


Why are you listing things that already have been discussed and deemed irrelevant?
And saying that I'm "specifically discussing trick", seriously? No one in their right mind would run a poke with just the move trick. And no one in their right mind would use Trick against: "1. Any Mega", "2/3. Anything that outspeeds", "5. Choice users", aka offence. Listing these "answers" doesn't accomplish anything against my case, since the pokes that use trick have their own stats, typings and 3 more moves, that are very relevant to this case, and are a force to be reckoned with on their own.


"1. Any Mega: GG (Ex: Gyarados)" - Already discussed and proven that megas don't necessarily beat Trick pokes at all.
"2. Anything that outspeeds and OHKOs: This is obvious as it wins against anything, but needs to be said. (Ex: Scarf Tyrantrum)" - Obviously, but this doesn't help against my case at all, and this is in fact even used as part of my argument against Trick.
"3. Outspeeds and Substitute: Locks you into trick, you lose (Ex: Keldeo)"
- Just simply untrue that just using sub would beat a choiced poke attacking you.
"4. Outspeed/Prankster Disable: Makes you struggle to death (Ex: Alakazam/Banette)"
- This was also brought up, and the issue was that "Outspeed disable" is just 1 poke, Alakazam, and is not that good of a poke in 1v1 in high ladder, and you shouldn't be forced to use it in a healthy meta. Same goes for "Prankster disable", aka mega Banette, a single poke, a not very good poke, and same goes here, you shouldn't be forced to use it.
"5. Choice users: If I'm specs, and you trick me a specs, I just got off a free attack, and you're back where you started (Ex: Meloetta)"
- How do other pokes beat these trick pokes attacking them just by holding a choice item?

So no, you have not demonstrated that much more beats TrickChoice than I lead onto.
And I don't want to talk about choice items in general, they are perfectly balanced out by that you are locked into 1 move, and if a poke becomes too strong in 1v1 because of the power given by the choice item then it should be suspected.


Which brings me to:

The thing is that these choiced Trick abusing pokes wouldn't be banworthy in my opinion if they weren't able to use Trick, because they would have many more answers if that was the case.
And if Trick+Choice is too complex I say just ban Trick itself, which wouldn't be too complex in that case.


So yeah, these pokes (the main abusers), are mainly Victini, Meloetta, and Porygon-Z, and they, as I said, wouldn't be banworthy if they didn't have Trick. And looking at the other Trick pokes, while they aren't as unmanageable when approached by using anything that does rely on 1 move and megas, they still invalidate everything that doesn't rely on 1 move only, which I'm arguing is unhealthy for the meta. At least 3 bans can be avoided by just banning Trick, the move that breaks these pokes in the 1st place, and causes very unhealthy matches in general.
I mean i was trying to give more general responses because I didn't think going through specifics was necessary and i'm lazy, and since TI said there wont be a suspect im not going to bother now. I will address your point that victini isn't ban worthy, its just trick thats banworthy. Everything has something that makes it broken. If MMence didn't have hyper beam, it may not be broken. If Deo-D didn't have taunt, it wouldn't be broken. So I agree that I don't like the idea of banning something in entirety. As a comparison, we don't need to ban aerilate, because that would also get rid of MPinsir, which isn't necessary, we just needed to ban MMence. We don't need to ban Noivern specs/switcheroo, I doubt you think thats broken. An argument for tini/melo individually though, has more merit.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
I mean i was trying to give more general responses because I didn't think going through specifics was necessary and i'm lazy, and since TI said there wont be a suspect im not going to bother now. I will address your point that victini isn't ban worthy, its just trick thats banworthy. Everything has something that makes it broken. If MMence didn't have hyper beam, it may not be broken. If Deo-D didn't have taunt, it wouldn't be broken. So I agree that I don't like the idea of banning something in entirety. As a comparison, we don't need to ban aerilate, because that would also get rid of MPinsir, which isn't necessary, we just needed to ban MMence. We don't need to ban Noivern specs/switcheroo, I doubt you think thats broken. An argument for tini/melo individually though, has more merit.
Well, as I understand it he was talking about "Trick + Choice" specifically and not Trick by itself. I really hope this will have the chance to be suspected/banned and not flat out rejected as an idea, because the core of the problem is the unhealthyness of the strat itself in 1v1, and not just some of the pokes abusing it.
 

Rosa

Merry Kerosene
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Some problems I have with the idea of a TrickChoice ban, and yes I'm saying TrickChoice rather than Trick by itself because who in their right mind would actually use this thing if it weren't for choice items, are that:
A: TrickChoice really only inhibits a select few mons, those mons being Chansey, Deoxys-Defense, Porygon-2 (to an extent), Togekiss (to an extent), Whimsicott (if they're dumb enough to get hit by it), Aegislash (if it doesn't ohko you first), Aron, and a bunch of either bad mons or situations that are just too unlikely to even hold relevance. This aspect of it really only makes it comparable to just giving your pokemon coverage, like giving Greninja Shadow Sneak to spite Meloetta and Porygon-Z, or giving Kyurem Ice Beam to handle Salamence-Mega while it was still allowed. The only real difference is that, rather than beating specific Types of pokemon, since Trick isn't an attack, it instead beats specific roles that a pokemon can fulfill, this case being stall or non-offensive play in general, and even then, it can't guarantee a win vs them, unless you know that they can't do anything to you, which in that case, the question arises; why don't they do what any rational 1v1 player, or even a Pokemon player in general, would do and just not use something that loses to something that has coverage for them?
B: TrickChoice is a One-Hit-Wonder; once a player knows you have TrickChoice as one of your coverage moves, they won't be losing to it again, unless it's something that's a 50/50 dependent upon whether the Trick user uses Trick or not, OR if the targeted mon can't benefit from the Choice boost; i.e Chansey's Seismic Toss.
C: The main problem I have with this, and a lot of 1v1 speculation in general, is that it is assumed that people will always make the right move, when in reality, it's actually quite the opposite. So few people actually know the proper etiquette for 1v1, such as how a standard Gyarados has a 50/50 chance of 2hkoing Mawile if it uses Earthquake twice, or how Alakazam should always wait a turn after Encoring so that way you can get double the turns of Struggle, that it actually raises the question of if we should consider how they play more important than how an ideal player would. Rumplestiltskin himself even says it's a rare move to encounter, which really whittles it down to the same level as being coverage (whether it's gimmicky coverage or not) such as Grass Knot anything for counter teaming Swampert, or Brick Break anything for handling Tyranitar.
D: The main Pokemon that like to abuse this strategy aren't even S rank, which is something we should take into account before dealing them with the same fate as Pokemon or concepts that were rightfully banned, such as most Ubers, Swagger, Evasion, etc. Porygon-Z on the other hand, would much rather be doing better things than be armed with something to handle... Shuckle, Aron, Deoxys (even though it's absolutely capable of handling it without the need of TrickChoice), and Chansey, I guess...

tl;dr Banning too many things can leave a perfectly healthy meta in a rather Tricky situation.
 
A few Pokemon have the offensive capabilities to utilize Trick (and Choice) and threaten archetypes as Rumple describes here. With that said, I'm opening discussion for Meloetta, Porygon-Z and Victini. Please make your case to why each of them should be suspected (or not suspected). Although 1v1 is drastically different from OU, I still recommend looking at the relevant parts of the tiering policy as there isn't a version written up for OM or for 1v1 (yet). And remember, don't post one-liners or your post will be deleted, and repeat offenders will be infracted.
 

DEG

ggs
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Meloetta used Trick!
Meloetta switched items with its target!
The opposing Chansey obtained one Choice Specs.
Meloetta obtained one Eviolite.

This is the scene we always see against a Trick user Pokemon, when it needs to neutralize its foe when it can't OHKO it easily, but is that strategy really broken? Does it really destroys archetype as we pretend it does? Is the move broken or the Pokemon?

First of all, I do not really believe the move is broken nor the Pokemon because it actually balances the metagame. Starting from the idea that it destroys archetypes, I find it hard enough to believe. Starting with the most archetype hit, Stall. Yes, trick+choice items hurt them but they can have a way against it, just like Stall hurts Semi-Offense, or recharge moves against offense. It doesn't necessarily beat it everytime but it has the advantage since we're talking about competitive play, plethora of archetypes, moves, Pokemon to choose from. Stall has a way against Trick+Choice, being in moves and items. Moves such as Substitute, Taunt or any relative attacking move can stop said user specially because Trick isn't fairly distributed fairly with Pokemon that have the prestige of being S rank, and being not as bulky nor as strong hitters as others, example Meloetta and Victini finds it hard to deal against Mandibuzz before or after tricking choice. Items which are obviously Mega-Stones can also stop the act, by no mean using a mega is actually bad, every team has a mega in every meta so we can't really say that using a mega is situational and only to beat said users, in contrary Megas actually aid stall in every aspect as they tend to be bulkier. We can also advance that the usage of Trick stops Stall from being overpowered, it limits the usage of Aron, Deoxys-D, Chansey to a degree since those Pokemon are hard to take down by most Pokemon, so taking away Trick would allows such users to prosper.

Secondly, it doesn't quite beat semi-offense because most Pokemon uses Sub or Taunt as they also need to beat stall Pokemon which stops their strategies, let's not forget that most semi-offensive Pokemon are actually mega-evolutions or have the offensive and defensive capabilities to beat Trick Users whether they use Trick or not.

Thirdly, Coverage Moves + Priority and Multi-Hit moves are rare and to an extent non existent and doesn't really necessarily loses to such tactic.

I do not really have time to make a longer post, I'd refer to The Official Glyx for the points risen. I do not think ruining a balanced metagame as a whole to aid the minority, which can also beat this tactic would help the metagame be in shape. Also there's no way we're banning such Pokemon just because they use Trick+Choice that sounds really bad, as they aren't even broken not overcentralizing.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Stall has a way against Trick+Choice, being in moves and items. Moves such as Substitute, Taunt
Are we really doing this? Seriously? Alright then.
As you may know, most stall pokes do not invest in speed, because they need the stats elsewhere, this is common knowledge. This means that "moves such as Substitute, Taunt" do not stop a choiced Trick user, unless you are talking about prankster. And the prankster stall pokes are Whimsicott, Sableye, and Murkrow. Other than the fact that saying that these 3 pokes are "a way against Trick+Choice" for stall is absurd, I literally just in 2 posts earlier said that no one in their right mind would use Trick against a prankster poke known to have sub or taunt, something all of these 3 pokes usually have, with Sableye almost always being a mega (do I need to repeat that no one would use Trick against a mega again?). What happens instead is that the Trick poke will attack them, and because it's dependant on the matchup, there is no prankster poke that can beat any and all of the choiced Trick pokes if they decide to attack it.

Secondly, it doesn't quite beat semi-offense because most Pokemon uses Sub or Taunt as they also need to beat stall Pokemon which stops their strategies, let's not forget that most semi-offensive Pokemon are actually mega-evolutions or have the offensive and defensive capabilities to beat Trick Users whether they use Trick or not.
And the same goes here, the Trick pokes are always invested in speed and will always outspeed any relevant "semi-offense". As for "semi-offense" beating the Trick pokes if they didn't use Trick, I'm not sure which pokes these "semi-offense" you are talking about here are.

or any relative attacking move can stop said user
So you're saying that all this time Trick was actually useless, and all anyone really needed to do was to use their low attacking stat, non invested pokes' unboosted "any relative attack" and they would win the matchup after getting swapped a choice item?
And that the poke that used Trick wouldn't still win after having lost a 1,5x boost in speed or an attacking stat and 1 turn?

specially because Trick isn't fairly distributed fairly with Pokemon that have the prestige of being S rank, and being not as bulky nor as strong hitters as others, example Meloetta and Victini finds it hard to deal against Mandibuzz before or after tricking choice.
I don't really see what the viability ranking thread has to do with this. Meloetta is one of the bulkiest offensive pokes, Victini is fairly bulky with it's 100-everything stats, and Porygon-Z is surprisingly bulky for the damage it's able to dish out. And saying that Trick pokes aren't as strong hitting as others? Seriously? Take a look at these pokes and imagine them spec'd or banded and tell me they aren't as strong hitting as others: Meloetta, Porygon-Z, Victini, Hoopa-U, Latios, Chandelure, Alakazam. Do I really need to prove this with calc's? I really thought this would be common knowledge.
And regarding the Mandibuzz argument; Mandibuzz has the right offensive and defensive type against both Meloetta and Victini. And yet it can only win vs Meloetta if it's fully invested in HP and spD, otherwise it gets OHKO'd. And against banded Victini it needs to be fully invested in HP and Def, and even then it loses by getting 2HKO'd by bolt strike if it goes for Foul Play or gets locked into a status move and loses if it gets a choice item to hold. What happens against the rest of the Trick pokes? Mandibuzz loses to most of them.

Items which are obviously Mega-Stones can also stop the act, by no mean using a mega is actually bad, every team has a mega in every meta so we can't really say that using a mega is situational and only to beat said users, in contrary Megas actually aid stall in every aspect as they tend to be bulkier.
I have lost count of how many times I've had to address this, most recently being 2 posts before this...
No one in their right mind will use Trick against a poke that has a mega. And with their other attacks the Trick pokes can still beat even the stall megas, depending on the matchup, and I have proven this in an earlier post...
And megas aid stall? I counted 10 megas that could be used for stall with extremely varying viability, out of the 43 usable megas, while the rest couldn't possibly. And even then, as I said, even those stall megas could lose to the Trick pokes.

We can also advance that the usage of Trick stops Stall from being overpowered, it limits the usage of Aron, Deoxys-D, Chansey to a degree since those Pokemon are hard to take down by most Pokemon, so taking away Trick would allows such users to prosper.
Do we even play the same 1v1 meta you are talking about here? Stall has never been even close to overpowered in 1v1, with massive offense dominating the meta since forever and stall being at a massive disadvantage. This should also be common knowledge, and even if not, I know this from 1st hand experience.
And you're scared that FEAR and Chansey will prosper without Trick? 1st of all, FEAR is a mediocre strat that has too many counters in 1v1, with FEAR beaten by so many status moves and and pretty much any status infliction, mold breaker, and leftovers to name some, and the fact that Chansey is also beaten by so many things ranging from choiced offense, setup offense, taunt offense, offense with recovery, to stall, and the move leech seed, that saying that Trick gone would be the specific thing that would make them prosper is ridiculous. 2nd of all, this is only showing bias of unwillingness to adapt and not leave the easy-mode that is choiced offense that's very viable against other offense that doesn't have to deal with other approaches thanks to Trick.

I do not think ruining a balanced metagame as a whole to aid the minority, which can also beat this tactic would help the metagame be in shape.
Is the metagame balanced just because you said so? Why should the minority not be aided, have you ever considered that the minority is the minority because the metagame isn't balanced? Most people will flock to use the available arguably broken pokes that are allowed in the meta, leaving the rest of the pokes in the minority.

Also there's no way we're banning such Pokemon just because they use Trick+Choice that sounds really bad, as they aren't even broken not overcentralizing.
And again they aren't broken just because you said so? I've been arguing with many real arguments that Trick is broken. If you don't want to look at Trick itself, then by all means, every poke using Trick is broken in that case, not just because I said so, but because I've provided real reasons as to why, and refuted the opposing arguments.

I do not really have time to make a longer post, I'd refer to The Official Glyx for the points risen.
Well then, let's take a look at that.
Some problems I have with the idea of a TrickChoice ban, and yes I'm saying TrickChoice rather than Trick by itself because who in their right mind would actually use this thing if it weren't for choice items, are that:
A: TrickChoice really only inhibits a select few mons, those mons being Chansey, Deoxys-Defense, Porygon-2 (to an extent), Togekiss (to an extent), Whimsicott (if they're dumb enough to get hit by it), Aegislash (if it doesn't ohko you first), Aron, and a bunch of either bad mons or situations that are just too unlikely to even hold relevance.
No, wrong.
1st of all they are not "a select few". Let's add some more pokes I quickly thought of and then tell me that they are "a select few": manaphy, mew, smeargle, azumarill, dusclops, jellicent, shuckle, torkoal, sylveon, mandibuzz.
2nd of all, the only reason these pokes would be bad or irrelevant (they aren't) would be because of the currently allowed arguably broken pokes in the first place, and the existence of Trick.
3rd of all you are forgetting that undiscovered sets that require the utilization of more than 1 move might exist, and you're saying that they don't matter.

This aspect of it really only makes it comparable to just giving your pokemon coverage, like giving Greninja Shadow Sneak to spite Meloetta and Porygon-Z, or giving Kyurem Ice Beam to handle Salamence-Mega while it was still allowed. The only real difference is that, rather than beating specific Types of pokemon, since Trick isn't an attack, it instead beats specific roles that a pokemon can fulfill, this case being stall or non-offensive play in general, and even then, it can't guarantee a win vs them, unless you know that they can't do anything to you, which in that case, the question arises; why don't they do what any rational 1v1 player, or even a Pokemon player in general, would do and just not use something that loses to something that has coverage for them?
"Just don't use what the very thing being accused of being broken beats!" Let's see how it looks if we apply that logic to megaray if that was being discussed here:

"why don't they do what any rational 1v1 player, or even a Pokemon player in general, would do and just not use something that loses to megaray?"​

Don't know what else to say than that this is not a good argument at all.

B: TrickChoice is a One-Hit-Wonder; once a player knows you have TrickChoice as one of your coverage moves, they won't be losing to it again, unless it's something that's a 50/50 dependent upon whether the Trick user uses Trick or not, OR if the targeted mon can't benefit from the Choice boost; i.e Chansey's Seismic Toss.
So if I run into a player I know has Trick, all I need to do is not use the poke that loses to Trick and I won't lose again? Seriously?
Not like the opponent could have at least 1 poke in his squad that would beat the poke that doesn't lose to the Trick poke.
Or that I could somehow Trickproof my Trick-weak poke.

C: The main problem I have with this, and a lot of 1v1 speculation in general, is that it is assumed that people will always make the right move, when in reality, it's actually quite the opposite. So few people actually know the proper etiquette for 1v1, such as how a standard Gyarados has a 50/50 chance of 2hkoing Mawile if it uses Earthquake twice, or how Alakazam should always wait a turn after Encoring so that way you can get double the turns of Struggle, that it actually raises the question of if we should consider how they play more important than how an ideal player would. Rumplestiltskin himself even says it's a rare move to encounter, which really whittles it down to the same level as being coverage (whether it's gimmicky coverage or not) such as Grass Knot anything for counter teaming Swampert, or Brick Break anything for handling Tyranitar.
How is this relevant at all? By Smogon standards, the possibility of players not using broken things optimally doesn't exempt them from being banned.
And I said that most players don't get Trick used against them most of the time by pokes that have Trick as one of their moves. What you said doesn't hold any weight as an argument as we've already established that most people will use 1 move offense and megas. Are you saying that because what most people use doesn't lose to the move Trick, then everything else should be disregarded? That isn't what balance is.

D: The main Pokemon that like to abuse this strategy aren't even S rank, which is something we should take into account before dealing them with the same fate as Pokemon or concepts that were rightfully banned, such as most Ubers, Swagger, Evasion, etc. Porygon-Z on the other hand, would much rather be doing better things than be armed with something to handle... Shuckle, Aron, Deoxys (even though it's absolutely capable of handling it without the need of TrickChoice), and Chansey, I guess...
No, it shouldn't be taken into account, a pokes position in a viability ranking thread should have no bearing on a ban. If something is broken, it should be banned.
And regarding Porygon-Z 1st of all, most people have Trick on Porygon-Z, because there's no reason not to have an insta-win button against various archetypes.
2nd of all, it seems that you like using Porygon-Z without Trick, which would be an argument to ban Trick itself rather than the pokes abusing Trick, which I agree with.

tl;dr Banning too many things can leave a perfectly healthy meta in a rather Tricky situation.
Is the meta perfectly healthy just because you said so? I've been arguing for months about various several different things that suggest that the meta isn't healthy at all, but because you disagree it's suddenly a fact that the meta is perfectly healthy? And you're using that as a base of your argument to not mess with the meta.

A few Pokemon have the offensive capabilities to utilize Trick (and Choice) and threaten archetypes as Rumple describes here. With that said, I'm opening discussion for Meloetta, Porygon-Z and Victini. Please make your case to why each of them should be suspected (or not suspected). Although 1v1 is drastically different from OU, I still recommend looking at the relevant parts of the tiering policy as there isn't a version written up for OM or for 1v1 (yet). And remember, don't post one-liners or your post will be deleted, and repeat offenders will be infracted.
What about Togekiss, Jirachi, Alakazam, Hoopa-U, Latios, Chandelure, and Rotom?
They might not get as much use, and thus not as big a priority to prepare for, but all of these pokes almost always have Trick, with the exception of Togekiss and Alakazam, who don't use it every time. Was I wrong about the unhealthyness of Trick? Or should those pokes also get suspected?
If I'm gonna make a case against Meloetta, Porygon-Z and Victini, the case would only hold because of what Trick does, which could also be applied to the other pokes I mentioned.
 
You're right that they can use Trick too, but what makes the Pokemon able to abuse Choice is their offensive capability. Chandelure is nowhere near Victini in terms of viability, for example. These Pokemon are suspected based on their overall capability, not because of Trick alone.
 

Rosa

Merry Kerosene
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No, wrong.
1st of all they are not "a select few". Let's add some more pokes I quickly thought of and then tell me that they are "a select few": manaphy, mew, smeargle, azumarill, dusclops, jellicent, shuckle, torkoal, sylveon, mandibuzz.
2nd of all, the only reason these pokes would be bad or irrelevant (they aren't) would be because of the currently allowed arguably broken pokes in the first place, and the existence of Trick.
3rd of all you are forgetting that undiscovered sets that require the utilization of more than 1 move might exist, and you're saying that they don't matter.
Most of these mons that you listed CAN lose to trick, but that doesn't mean that they will, as each of them have things that they can do to counteract being Tricked.
Manaphy: Just attack, only Meloetta stands a plausible chance of taking 2 hits
Mew: I'm unfamiliar with Mew sets, but the stallier sets that it's prone to will likely lose to Trick.
Smeargle: Just Transform and get the easy win
Azumarill: One of this mon's prominent sets involve using a Choice item, why on earth would you Trick them unless you're trying to cteam?
Dusclops: This one loses to Trick yes, but being the #161 most commonly used pokemon in 1v1 does not give it all that much significance.
Jellicent: Already has two attacks that hurt both Porygon-Z and Victini pretty badly if they Trick it, only Meloetta stands up to a Choiced hit from it.
Shuckle: Has next to no niche in 1v1 other than trolling lower ladder people, and even then, still has Encore, which it can use to smack Trick users in the face.
Torkoal: I've never seen a Torkoal in 1v1, and I doubt I ever will. It's just plain bad. Losing to Trick is just one of many things it loses to.
Sylveon: Blatantly beats Porygon-Z or loses to a Specs variant anyways. Victini usually wins regardless. Meloetta is the only debatable case, and even then, it blatantly 2hko's with Psyshock while being able to take a Hyper Beam to the face; only a Choice Specs or Custap/Endure Sylveon even has a chance at beating it.
Mandibuzz: Kinda loses to Porygon-Z regardless, unless specially defensive. It creates a 50/50 that you love ever-so-much when against a Victini, since a Banded Foul Play Ohko's it, or you can Torment it to stop it from Bolting twice. Mandibuzz has no chance versus Meloetta unless specially defensive, and even then, it's a 50/50 with whether it Hyper Beams or does a different attack.

2nd, this is the way Pokemon is and you need to accept it. There will always be pokemon that are generally better than the others; even if you ban all the "broken" S ranks, then the A ranks will just take their place, and then the B ranks, and C ranks, and so forth, until we eventually get down to a level in which everyone is forced to use just Magikarp or something. Just because you refuse to use good Pokemon doesn't mean that everyone else should be forced to use your Pokemon.

3rd, if these undiscovered sets were so important, then they would have made some level of impact on the meta already, but as far as how it is now, all the significant sets have already been made present. When Sun and Moon, or some other universal change to the system comes, I'm sure there will be plenty of things to be discovered.

I won't be covering any of the other "points" you've made, since a large majority of them were aimed at other people, or just waiving off my statements as "bad"
 

cant say

twitch.tv/jakecantsay
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Battle Stadium Head
I thought you guys might be interested in this: the next Battle Spot Online Competition is the "Flash Clash" - it's 1v1 with 6v6 team preview, Mega Stones and Focus Sash are banned, item clause is in effect, event/mythical legendaries are banned, and everything is level 50! We'd appreciate any 1v1 experts thoughts in the thread we have:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/flash-clash-online-competition.3568427/

n_n
 
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 16 HP / 64 Def / 252 SpD / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Will-o-Wisp


I was redoing my Mew's EV spread to creep Timid Deoxys-D, and found that I had quite a lot of EV's left over. As opposed to the primarily Physically defensive spread that I was using because Mew rarely has to take Special attacks, I decided on a mixed spread with significant emphasis on Special attacks. Even though this looks horribly unoptimized due to the fact that EV's are split between both defenses, this spread works like a charm.

In fact, you ALWAYS beat ALL variants of Meloetta and Specs Porygon-Z and beat Scarf Porygon-Z without Trick simply by clicking Knock Off turn 1.
Calcs: 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 16 HP / 252 SpD Mew: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meloetta does less than PZ so calcing Scarf is unnecessary and the Specs should be Knocked Off before it attacks.
Four Knock Offs do between 283 and 336 HP to Porygon-Z, which has 311 HP. (Trick, Hyper Beam, Recharge, Hyper Beam while you outspeed, if they went for hyper beam turn 1 just spam Roost to PP stall them out of hyper beam) TrickScarf Porygon-Z can beat this with good move selection
0 Atk Mew Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You outspeed Meloetta and 3HKO while it's stuck recharging.

While this spread does leave you WAY more vulnerable to Knock Off + Swords Dance Mega Mawile and Crunch Mega Gyarados, beating those two comes down to a 50/50 between Taunt and Wisp.
 
I found a really interesting way to play 1v1. This set involves lot of prediction.
Snorlax (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Amnesia
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic/Filler
- Rest

Special Defence Snorlax to counter many of the Special Attackers such as Porygon-z.
Rest prevent toxic stall and Seismic Toss is similar to Chansey. The Main Advantage is that Snorlax is harder to predict than Chansey or Blissey since it can be curse lax.

Venusaur-Mega (F) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Knock Off
- Sludge Bomb

This can be substituted for anything but its main purpose is to avoid survive trick physical attackers although it can be replaced to counter trick victini.

Slowbro-Mega (F) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Iron Defense
- Psychic/Scald/Surf
- Toxic/Filler

Defensive Slowbro for Mawille and other physical attackers. Psychic over scald or surf to punish fighting types due to lack of fire types where scald is effective.

The biggest problem with this team is Charizard because it is hard to predict between x and y and choose between Snorlax and Slowbro.
The team can be improved by changing mega venusaur but I am not sure what to replace it with. Taunt is also a problem but venusaur can punish taunt with sludge bomb.
 
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 16 HP / 64 Def / 252 SpD / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Will-o-Wisp


I was redoing my Mew's EV spread to creep Timid Deoxys-D, and found that I had quite a lot of EV's left over. As opposed to the primarily Physically defensive spread that I was using because Mew rarely has to take Special attacks, I decided on a mixed spread with significant emphasis on Special attacks. Even though this looks horribly unoptimized due to the fact that EV's are split between both defenses, this spread works like a charm.

In fact, you ALWAYS beat ALL variants of Meloetta and Specs Porygon-Z and beat Scarf Porygon-Z without Trick simply by clicking Knock Off turn 1.
Calcs: 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 16 HP / 252 SpD Mew: 292-344 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meloetta does less than PZ so calcing Scarf is unnecessary and the Specs should be Knocked Off before it attacks.
Four Knock Offs do between 283 and 336 HP to Porygon-Z, which has 311 HP. (Trick, Hyper Beam, Recharge, Hyper Beam while you outspeed, if they went for hyper beam turn 1 just spam Roost to PP stall them out of hyper beam) TrickScarf Porygon-Z can beat this with good move selection
0 Atk Mew Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You outspeed Meloetta and 3HKO while it's stuck recharging.

While this spread does leave you WAY more vulnerable to Knock Off + Swords Dance Mega Mawile and Crunch Mega Gyarados, beating those two comes down to a 50/50 between Taunt and Wisp.
Meloetta can click Shadow Ball, and it is probably a 2HKO. In addition, Knock Off won't 2HKO or may not even 3HKO because most are 252 HP.
 
Banded Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Charizard Y really put in some work.

These days you see some troll pokemon like aron, probopass, etc. This is easily avoided by leech seed + sleep power from MVenu. Banded Talonflame takes care of fast attackers who don't have much bulk, and Charizard just hits everything with Blast Burn/Fire Blast/Flamethrower/FocusBlast etc.

None of these need suspect testing because they are all easily beaten by individual pokemon but these are some very common threats.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
I think it should be really good. Notably, it can beat common threats such as Greninja, Sylveon, and Gardevoir quite easily. It can even take down Charizards. You can run some funky EV spreads to guarantee KOs on non-bulky zards, or run full SpA to kill even more of the meta, at the loss of some bulk.

252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Volcanion: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 219-258 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
76+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 297-351 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Earth Power vs. 176 HP / 32 SpD Mega Charizard X: 356-420 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 176 HP / 32 SpD Mega Charizard X: 327-385 (95.8 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Overall, we're not going to be able to see just how good this thing is until we use it, but I have a feeling it will be amazing due to typing, bulk, power, and moveset. Even moreso, it can be really unpredictable, and run bulky, physically offensive, specially offensive, or fast sets. It can fill so many roles, Volcanion might quickly become one of the top threats
 
Looks like there isn't support for a suspect test; so, I'll change the topic to something else.

Volcanion will be released in a few days. How will it impact 1v1? Will it see any use? What potential sets can it run?
Can't wait for the Volcanion release!

I don't think it is going to impact 1v1 mostly, looking at Volcanion's stats and its movepool, some pokemon with 150 BP recharge will spam it first try to get rid of it. It will however affect the ORAS tiers gameplay. Showing to be better than Hydro Pump and Scald combined.

Volcanion will mostly only affect 1v1 based on typing. Its unique typing makes it hard to get a solid counter in 1v1. Most viable pokemon will be threatened by it so I am really excited to see how this pan out.

-TenucSkenuck
 

TheMantyke

Sentient Movepool Trivia
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Hello. Not really sure where to post this, but since I saw this set in an archived RMT and a few posts about it in this thread:

Charm + Seismic Toss Chansey is 100% Illegal. Charm is a level up move for Happiny. Seismic Toss is obtained either by tutoring a Gen 3 Chansey Seismic toss (which is before Happiny's introduction) or breeding it on a Gen 6 Chansey. Chansey and Happiny have different egg movepools (Chansey's Happiny's), Happiny's movepool lacking Seismic Toss completely, kind of like how azurill's egg moves lacks Aqua Jet. So, sadly, there's no way to get a legal Chansey with Charm + Seismic Toss. Pretty famous incompatibility people noticed at the start of DP that I guess was just forgotten with time!
 
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