Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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Also the argument that T-tar and Mandibuzz can be worn down with hazards doesn't make a lot of sense as Mega Sab has Magic Bounce.
GL getting the magic bounce b4 mega evolving.

Anything gets worn down. Nobody said the core is invincible, but saying "Oh it gets Worn down" is not a good argument to make against a suspected mon because everything gets worn down. That is how a lot of pokemon battles work, Chipping and chipping at walls and backbones to give your wincon the game winning hole punch or sweep. There is no core in the history of pokemon that cannot be worn down. Saying that "Oh a strong wallbreaker deals with it" is not enough to convince anybody that a mon isn't broken.
This core especially gets worn down by ahzards, as I mentioned ttar has no reocver, mandibuzz is weak to sr, and you can easily switch on the defgog to say, mega gardevoir, camerupt, something with strong ice/electric attacks, to go and take that out, and if they switch, act upon that, and so on.
 

Wanka

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GL getting the magic bounce b4 mega evolving.


This core especially gets worn down by ahzards, as I mentioned ttar has no reocver, mandibuzz is weak to sr, and you can easily switch on the defgog to say, mega gardevoir, camerupt, something with strong ice/electric attacks, to go and take that out, and if they switch, act upon that, and so on.
ANY CORE CAN GET WORN DOWN BY HAZARDS PLEASE LISTEN TO WHAT IM SAYING.

With the combo of magic bounce and defog, dark is not as overly pressured by hazards than what you make it out to be. Sableye is a fantastic lead with early priority willo and for some reason everyone in this tier leads with their rocker in every single battle so you can threaten them out straight off the bat.

You also have to take into account the ghost side of things as well which provides arguably just as good, if not better support than dark does. I'm not saying the core is perfect because no core is in terms of keeping hazards out. But you are wrong in saying that it is hard for dark to prevent them/keep them out of play because rather than just one reliable hazard controller that cores generally have, This core has 2. Mega Sab and mandi have access to recovery and ttar has passive recovery in leftovers which makes helps out with hazards just as much. You are blowing things out of proportion for no reason by making general statements that don't contribute to the argument.
 
Cast already said this, but can we do less of this "personal attacking?" Or at least do it in pms, and not clutter up the thread. The Mono council has already decided that Mega Sableye is going to be suspected, so it doesn't really matter how much you defend or hate it. Now can we talk about other potential suspects instead of repeating the same stuff over and over?
 
Cast already said this, but can we do less of this "personal attacking?" Or at least do it in pms, and not clutter up the thread. The Mono council has already decided that Mega Sableye is going to be suspected, so it doesn't really matter how much you defend or hate it. Now can we talk about other potential suspects instead of repeating the same stuff over and over?
What other suspects do the council consider looking into?
 
To be honest there are plenty of ways teams can deal with mega Sableye...
Yes you can get him at plus one, but his speed becomes so slow...
There are three ways to run sab
Fake out+knock off set with recover and a extra move, the physical annoyance
Then the more common
Cmind, willowisp,recover, and finally darkpulse/special move/foul play
The major difference here is where you stack Your Evs.. For me I put them in Hp and special d to fuck over people.. But many do defense plus instead.. Now since it boosts with calm mind there is only one op mon to handle it the best... Diancie mega.. The next would be gardevoir mega or a Pokemon like clefable, I know I'm mentioning fairies right now but there one of the few types to have it easier

Ghost and dark have it slightly easier as well due to the ton of special mons in that types or if your like me who makes it a special tank, physical mons.. Gengar, chandelure for ghost and for dark a good special mon would be zoroark, or hoopa U are good examples

Water can last a little bit but Keldeo with calm mind set out right rapes sableye so much... Same for fighting weirdly... But for fighting there's also nape

Fire just rapes it so hard if done right cause no willo while grass has it tough...

Bug defeats Sab with volcarona ONLY IF it catches it early in the calm minds if not it has plenty of powerful mind like pinsir, heracross, and scizor

Psychic well.. Gardevoir again, and also viccy, then mins with a ton of bulk like rienculus or cresselia...

These are some counters.... Not saying there perfect and many are iffy counters... But if done right can counter Sab mega
 
Ed, most of our ideas come from the thread. But if people keep on talking about Mega Sab, we won't have any! The community plays more Monotype than a majority of council members, so it's normal that you'd be better at finding broken stuff. Personally, I'd like to see a Hoopa-U because of its sheer power, and Mega Gallade because of its fast speed, and access to SD and Knock Off.
 
Ed, most of our ideas come from the thread. But if people keep on talking about Mega Sab, we won't have any! The community plays more Monotype than a majority of council members, so it's normal that you'd be better at finding broken stuff. Personally, I'd like to see a Hoopa-U because of its sheer power, and Mega Gallade because of its fast speed, and access to SD and Knock Off.
The problem I find right now with this and future suspects is your banning philosophy. When we voted on MAlt suspect we were given three options: global ban and the type bans. Now you guys wanting to be more inline with Smogon's own tiering way of thinking, have eliminated the type/complex bans oh wait except for Aegislash/steel.

Some of the pokes we will suspect are not broken/OP/unhealthy on their own. They can be depending on their type. The reason is exactly what has been mentioned already. We are playing Monotype here, there can't really be over centralization when a bunch of types don't have access to the problem Mon or sometimes 100% counters to it. When looking at say, Hoopa-U, I'd be hard pressed to push for a global ban. I believe a ban from Psychic is more appropriate (positive matchup versus ghost wow). Most people have been arguing the support M-sableye gets but are just naming dark pokes. I haven't read any counterarguments from a ghost perspective. Do I think M-sableye deserves a global ban? Probably not. But if you give me the option of choosing for a ban type on Dark I'll probably opt for that.

Now why do you prefer to agree with Smogon rather than the player base that defines this meta when it comes to tiering? I don't know.
 

Wanka

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The problem I find right now with this and future suspects is your banning philosophy. When we voted on MAlt suspect we were given three options: global ban and the type bans. Now you guys wanting to be more inline with Smogon's own tiering way of thinking, have eliminated the type/complex bans oh wait except for Aegislash/steel.

Some of the pokes we will suspect are not broken/OP/unhealthy on their own. They can be depending on their type. The reason is exactly what has been mentioned already. We are playing Monotype here, there can't really be over centralization when a bunch of types don't have access to the problem Mon or sometimes 100% counters to it. When looking at say, Hoopa-U, I'd be hard pressed to push for a global ban. I believe a ban from Psychic is more appropriate (positive matchup versus ghost wow). Most people have been arguing the support M-sableye gets but are just naming dark pokes. I haven't read any counterarguments from a ghost perspective. Do I think M-sableye deserves a global ban? Probably not. But if you give me the option of choosing for a ban type on Dark I'll probably opt for that.

Now why do you prefer to agree with Smogon rather than the player base that defines this meta when it comes to tiering? I don't know.

Because the player base has proven time and time again that they don't have a clue whats going on and anyone who does has had poor relationships with some of the staff so there is almost a sense of boycotting happening right now. This tier can actually become so much better with the right hands in power but the poor relationships are kind of keeping us away from contributing as much as we'd like.
 
Because the player base has proven time and time again that they don't have a clue whats going on and anyone who does has had poor relationships with some of the staff so there is almost a sense of boycotting happening right now. This tier can actually become so much better with the right hands in power but the poor relationships are kind of keeping us away from contributing as much as we'd like.
sorry but that doesn't make much sense. Why are there suspect tests then if the players "don't have a clue what's going on"?
The community plays more Monotype than a majority of council members, so it's normal that you'd be better at finding broken stuff.
The whole "become so much better" argument I presume is just tied up in Smogon terms (having a sub forum, seasonal tourneys, etc). We already have our own webpage and our own forum (which is criminally underused btw, that's a different story).
 
I'm going to try to point out some things and ideas about a Hoopa-U suspect. Hoopa-U suspect on Psychic would be a great way to improve this meta imo, as well as even Dark maybe(I guess lmfao)! It hurts a lot of matchups, and especially because Fighting doesn't often carry a dark immunity(lol) anymore. A wide movepool and a passable speed with a scarf, as well as tremendous power with or without Life Orb is insane. It hurts and skews some matchups, and I feel like I'm looking at Landorus-I in OU again. While Lando-I had great speed and power and some better defenses, it hurt many teams in OU with its coverage and power. Now, I feel as if it is an apt comparison for Hoopa-U's situation in Psychic Monos and some matchups for Dark. It can hurt a lot of teams with its coverage and power, and it can utilize a few items some might not think it can use well. Things like Band/Specs/LO, it just feels as if it has more freedom to abuse its options on Psychic over Dark. It is immensely bulky on the special side of things, so that is a cause for concern, as it can take free switches in from weak spatks and retaliate. So I think I like the idea of a suspect after this for Hoopa-U on Psychic.
 

Josh

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tagging Eevee General to come clean this up because its getting ridiculous


Anyways my thoughts on the current discussion topics?

Well, I definitely don't agree with Smogon's decision to not do complicated bans, but I do understand that it makes it more complicated for new players and new players are very important. I do agree with Monotype following their tiering philosophies, but I don't agree that we are executing that. None of the official smogon tiers are like monotype. They don't need to worry about most mons being essentially 2 Pokemon. So, I don't support things like unbanning Talonflame and just banning Gale Wings on it. I don't agree with unbanning Blaziken and banning Speed Boost. But I do think that having type only bans makes full sense and doesn't qualify as a complicated ban, because I view it as 2 seperate Pokemon (basically).

I have no reserves about banning Hoopa-U, I'm indifferent.
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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lol this got really off topic, what's with all the smogon philosophy and look for other bans stuff, we already have a mono banning philosophy and a confirmed suspect. The question is whether sablenite makes multiple types almost certainly auto lose to types that they normally wouldn't. Now I don't have the best mono experience (seriously get ur damn tutoring program together even PU's better lol) but it seems to me that it simply puts a lot of pressure on certain types (fighting, poison? idrk D: ) but it doesn't turn them into an auto win and obviously something with its resistances is going to be really annoying. Regular sableye probably manhandles types like fighting anyway. It's good, it needs careful handling, but does it just win?
iWanka is mean :[
 
Ok sorry about that one liner but can we talk about how strong the gardevoir + hoopa core is right now? Hoopa + Garde can break down virtually each of their checks through out the game allowing scarfers or late game win cons like slowbro to sweep through teams.
 

lax

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Sorry, just my thoughts but can we be a little less "ban happy" trying to ban everything? The community has grown a lot so if you really feel the metagame needs a change after this suspect test then feel free to voice your opinions but don't try to get things removed from monotype just because you dislike it, you lost it once, or anything insignificant like that. Think if it is actually a big problem for the metagame and have a nice discussion in it. This is a serious and fun tier! n_n
 
Let's Talk about

Dark: On dark 99% of the time its running Scarf. It is Dark's main way of getting rid of fighting types. This Pokemon needs to fulfill a specific role on Dark. The other sets are not ass viable as scarf on Dark. I feel this Pokemon adds to Dark and doesn't get to utilize its versatility to its fullest on Dark Teams because it fills a specfic roll as a powerful mixed scarfer that was lost on Dark when Greninja got ban. I say Do Not touch it on Dark because it fulfills a very important role on Dark Teams and doesn't get to abuse its versatility.

Psychic: Hoopa really gets to shine on Psychic teams because of the team support it gets on Psychic. Sets that can be used (Scarf mixed attacker, Band, Sub Nasty Plot, Life Orb Mixed attacker). The problem most people have with Hoopa is on Psychic because it is a lot less predictable on Psychic because of the team support it provides. Also along with Hoopa's very good coverage on both the Physical and Special Side
Hyperspace Fury, Drain Punch,Gunk Shot, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Knock Off, Zen Headbutt

Hyperspace Hole, Psychic, Psyshock, Energy Ball, HP Ice or Fire, Focus Blast, Dark Pulse, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, Shadow Ball

Nasty Plot, Sub, Taunt, D-Bond,Trick

One very important thing to note about Hoopa is that it decimates slower bulky Pokemon because of its coverage options. Sure most types do not have a "switch in" to Hoopa but that is to be expected in Monotype because of the limited options. Example Lando-I vs Steel or Mega Vena vs Water. If Hoopa is being considered for a ban it will be a type only ban or it will not get ban because most types can check it (besides ghost). I feel Hoopa right now should be in the back of our minds atm because it is not as broken as it was originally thought to be and we should wait and see how it affects the Metagame.

Mega Gallade:

Reintroducing this was a good idea although it is not seen much (faces competition from Mega Gard) I feel council made the right decision with unbanning this hopefully Hoopa doesn't end up like Mega Gallade where it was demmed "too good with the support Psychic gave it" when it was just fine in the meta. Mega Gallade is a great example of a rash ban that hopefully Hoopa won't receive because its "new toy". Hopefully we learned our lesson with Mega Gallade about not banning something without giving players a chance to adapt.
 
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Let's Talk about

Dark: On dark 99% of the time its running Scarf. It is Dark's main way of getting rid of fighting types. This Pokemon needs to fulfill a specific role on Dark. The other sets are not ass viable as scarf on Dark. I feel this Pokemon adds to Dark and doesn't get to utilize its versatility to its fullest on Dark Teams because it fills a specfic roll as a powerful mixed scarfer that was lost on Dark when Greninja got ban. I say Do Not touch it on Dark because it fulfills a very important role on Dark Teams and doesn't get to abuse its versatility.

Psychic: Hoopa really gets to shine on Psychic teams because of the team support it gets on Psychic. Sets that can be used (Scarf mixed attacker, Band, Sub Nasty Plot, Life Orb Mixed attacker). The problem most people have with Hoopa is on Psychic because it is a lot less predictable on Psychic because of the team support it provides. Also along with Hoopa's very good coverage on both the Physical and Special Side
Hyperspace Fury, Drain Punch,Gunk Shot, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Knock Off, Zen Headbutt

Hyperspace Hole, Psychic, Psyshock, Energy Ball, HP Ice or Fire, Focus Blast, Dark Pulse, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, Shadow Ball

Nasty Plot, Sub, Taunt, D-Bond,Trick

One very important thing to note about Hoopa is that it decimates slower bulky Pokemon because of its coverage options. Sure most types do not have a "switch in" to Hoopa but that is to be expected in Monotype because of the limited options. Example Lando-I vs Steel or Mega Vena vs Water. If Hoopa is being considered for a ban it will be a type only ban or it will not get ban because most types can check it (besides ghost). I feel Hoopa right now should be in the back of our minds atm because it is not as broken as it was originally thought to be and we should wait and see how it affects the Metagame.

Mega Gallade:

Reintroducing this was a good idea although it is not seen much (faces competition from Mega Gard) I feel council made the right decision with unbanning this hopefully Hoopa doesn't end up like Mega Gallade where it was demmed "too good with the support Psychic gave it" when it was just fine in the meta. Mega Gallade is a great example of a rash ban that hopefully Hoopa won't receive because its "new toy". Hopefully we learned our lesson with Mega Gallade about not banning something without giving players a chance to adapt.[/hide][/hide]
The only real argument you could make tbh is that psychic is currently probably the strongest and easiest type to use rn. Banning hoopa on it would at least give ghost a fighting chance against it again. Granted I'm not 100% on banning it (psychic only), but I feel like it's a potential rising isdue.
 
I don't believe that Hoopa merits a ban as of now. I thought that we have escaped th mindset of banning to nerf a type that is good. Is Psychic an incredibly versatile and potent type with many viable playstyles and threats? Yes. Is Hoopa required to make the type decent? No. However, this does not mean that it merits a ban just because the type is good.

Certain types are naturally better than others, so players will use the tools that they have to win.

While Hoopa does have incredible offensive prowess with a movepool to back up its stats, it is inhibited by its mediocre physical bulk and speed tier that won't accomplish much outside of wallbreaking. Yes, most types don't have a solid switch to Hoopa, but most types don't have a solid switch into Gardevoir as well. Should we ban Gardevoir for this same reason? After all, a mammoth base 165 SpA coupled with Pixelate and unresisted coverage, mixed attacking capabilities, and neat setup/support moves make it comparable to Hoopa in this aspect.

At one point, I used to say: "most types don't have a switch into Mega-Charizard-Y and its decent bulk make it difficult to revenge kill. WHY isn't it banned?" Why? Because types that lack a switch in are usually loaded with a plethora of checks. This tier, more so than any other tier, is heavily influenced by counter playing against unbalanced matchups. While Hoopa does not necessarily have a safe switch, it has plenty of offensive checks.

I do feel like my opinion my change when we look into offensive cores that Hoopa forms on Psychic, but the team support aspect can then get tricky because *cough cough* the core of Bisharp and Mega-Scizor exists
 

Ridley

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I don't believe that Hoopa merits a ban as of now. I thought that we have escaped th mindset of banning to nerf a type that is good. Is Psychic an incredibly versatile and potent type with many viable playstyles and threats? Yes. Is Hoopa required to make the type decent? No. However, this does not mean that it merits a ban just because the type is good.

Certain types are naturally better than others, so players will use the tools that they have to win.

While Hoopa does have incredible offensive prowess with a movepool to back up its stats, it is inhibited by its mediocre physical bulk and speed tier that won't accomplish much outside of wallbreaking. Yes, most types don't have a solid switch to Hoopa, but most types don't have a solid switch into Gardevoir as well. Should we ban Gardevoir for this same reason? After all, a mammoth base 165 SpA coupled with Pixelate and unresisted coverage, mixed attacking capabilities, and neat setup/support moves make it comparable to Hoopa in this aspect.

At one point, I used to say: "most types don't have a switch into Mega-Charizard-Y and its decent bulk make it difficult to revenge kill. WHY isn't it banned?" Why? Because types that lack a switch in are usually loaded with a plethora of checks. This tier, more so than any other tier, is heavily influenced by counter playing against unbalanced matchups. While Hoopa does not necessarily have a safe switch, it has plenty of offensive checks.

I do feel like my opinion my change when we look into offensive cores that Hoopa forms on Psychic, but the team support aspect can then get tricky because *cough cough* the core of Bisharp and Mega-Scizor exists
The main reason Hoopa is so good is because of its amazing ability to break absolutely every wall and the fact that it does not have a single solid switchin in this entire metagame, due to the fact it can run so many viable sets. These two characteristics combined with the fact that it does not take up a mega spot and allows one to use ANOTHER amazing wallbreaker such as Mega Gardevoir are what make it too much for many teams.

Also, psychic offers one of the best, if not the absolute best team support to this amazing mon. Mega Gardevoir takes out the things that Hoopa can't outright OHKO. It also has defensive mons like Slowbro/Cresselia/Metagross etc. that can switch in to the priority attacks that are such a big threat to Hoopa. Psychic also has a plethora of healing wish users that can give you two shots at a sweep with Hoopa, or bring it back to enough health to take out that one last threat.


This argument is pretty much invalid. Saying that a type or team isn't OP because it loses to ONE type is like saying Bug with Genesect wasn't OP because it struggled with beating Fire.

tl;dr: it's not that long, just read it please.
 
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Acast

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I feel Hoopa right now should be in the back of our minds atm because it is not as broken as it was originally thought to be and we should wait and see how it affects the Metagame.
Hoopa-U seems to be in a very similar situation to what Mega Sableye was in at the beginning of ORAS. Sablenite was released, and there was a massive uproar calling for it to be quick-banned or at least suspected. After almost a year, people have found ways of dealing with it and the uproar died down up until recently.

Just as Sablenite was at the end of last year, Hoopa-U is still a fairly new toy. It hasn't been fully integrated into the metagame yet and we don't know exactly what all the other types can do to deal with it. The fact that Sablenite is still being talked about now is strong evidence that it at least deserves a suspect. It may have taken a long time to get to this point, but I'm glad the suspect is happening now instead of when it was still new. Now we have a far better understanding of Mega Sableye and its place in the metagame. We're all more informed today than we were last year.

My opinion on whether or not Sablenite should be suspected has jumped around a lot and I'm still not entirely sure if the suspect is worth our time, but if it's going to happen at all, now is a good time.

Going back to Hoopa-U, I agree with iVid. It needs to be in the metagame longer before we can fully understand what it can do and what can be done to stop it. A better understanding leads to a more informed and intelligent suspect test.

tl,dr Suspecting Sablenite when it was still new would have been a mistake. At least now we can all be confident that the metagame has had the opportunity to adapt to it. We should do the same for Hoopa-U. Wait and see what happens, and then suspect it later if it's still a problem.
 

Wanka

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I think ridley brings up a fantastic point about hoopas wallbreaking ability while not being able to take up a mega slot which leaves the door open to use mega garde as well which on paper, seems like insta wins against balance builds with their sheer power. The thing about psychic (and this is probably just me) is that I don't think mew and slowbro are as good of support mons as ttar, mandi, and sable and aegi, sable, and jelli. Now, I probably feel that way because obviously those are cores of 3 mons as opposed to only mew and bro, but the main reason I don't like mew and bro as much is because I really only don't like mew. Mew has 5MSS (five move slot syndrom) at times for me and it can be extremely passive. It usually doubles up as a rocker and a defogger which takes up two slots right there along with will-o which is three. You are then most likely going to add on roost for longevity so you miss out on things like taunt, heal bell, or knock off. or you risk not running defog or roost and then you leave yourself prone to types like like to spike and stack hazards (grass, steel, fairy, flying, and bug?) and not having roost means you can't wall stuff as well. I have seen some cool mew sets that can get around the passiveness but it is somewhat difficult to dodge it.

In a nutshell what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the support mons for hoopa on psy are AS effective as they might seem, but they are still strong without a doubt. I just don't really like mew all that much. All in all I think we need to give hoopa a lot more time, Acast made a good point in saying that some of us were a little quick ban happy when hoopa first got realeased (including myself) so I think it should just chill for a bit longer until we see a glaring issue with it. It's ability is hindered on dark with it really only being able to run scarf sets so on dark its fine. Psychic isn't overly powerful either so it really shouldn't be too too much of an issue for people because psy is balanced out with dark being an extremely common type on the mid to higher ladder. If dark wasn't so popular than there would defo be focused on a lot more but I can see slow adaptations to the 6 armed monster so I'd leave it be for now.

I kinda suck at getting my point across on here sometimes so I apologize if I made that sound really over complicated and weird.
 
I hate to bring this up again, but this is a point that I need to get across to people as these people are potential voters in a sablenite suspect test:

Do not cite team support as the sole reason Mega-Sableye should be banned.

Reasoning:
Team support is definitely a factor in how good a pokemon can perform, this is true. However, this is akin to saying "it doesn't matter if you pack a Weavile to counter my DD Dragonite; I will simply switch out to Skarmory and your counter means nothing".

I have seen multiple times that people claim that Mega-Sableye makes the matchup lopsided vs. poison teams; this is simply not true. Tentacruel is an excellent answer to the CM set (and if it's a restalk set, it is a hard counter and switches in every time to force out mega-sableye; which btw is not overcentralizing as this also shuts down many stally mons that can be found on many different teams). The utility set is a little harder to deal with, but it struggles to break past Mega-Venusaur / Weezing, and don't forget that poison attacking moves will eventually poison Mega-Sableye through Magic Bounce, assuming that you haven't scald-burned it yet).

I will repeat this in case you missed it; RestTalk Tentacruel is right up there with Volcarona in terms of an excellent mega-sab answer. Obviously Tenta is beaten by Bisharp / Aegislash and friends, but you can say the same for Volc vs. Chandelure / Tyranitar, and nobody is discounting Volc as an excellent answer to Mega-Sableye.

The team support argument, if cited as the main reason it is banned (if it's banned) will lead the Monotype Metagame down a very slippery slope. All of a sudden, Mega-Scizor is too stronk against Rock/Ice/Fairy since hey, it has 5 teammates to rely on in case the rock/ice/fairy player has something that beats it. Let's ban Mega-Scizor!

Or, Lando-I is too strong vs. poison/electric/rock/steel/fire types, and even though I can pack HPice Gengar / Kabutops / w/e, it doesn't matter since I can switch out to my Skarm/Gastrodon/Gyarados. Therefore, team support makes Lando-I too good for monotype, and is overcentralizing; let's ban it!

.... I hope Monotype does not make this mistake. If Mega-Sableye is really such an over-centralizing mon that it takes at least 2 pokemon to not auto-lose to it, then I will accept it when it gets banned. In my experience battling (vs. both n00bs and battlers who know what they're doing), this is not the case.

One final point I'd like to bring up, is that just because a pokemon is good enough to be seen on 99% of teams of that type, does not mean it is overcentralizing. Heatran is found on 99.99% of fire and steel teams today, and requires 1-3 pokemon to check it on ice/grass/steel/bug teams and is more unpredictable than Mega-Sableye (with excellent team support on Steel). Yet nobody is crying for Heatran to get banned...
 
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