Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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Hey guys, Lord B33 here. So now that Mega Sableye suspect is pretty much confirmed by the council after the reset, let's steer the discussion to another extremely powerful set up sweeper, Mega Gyarados.

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Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Substitute

This set can single-handedly destroy Psychic, Ghost, Rock, Ground and Fire. It can set up on pretty much any wall with Substitute and its damage output is insane. It gets Heal Bell support in BOTH of its types + both types get great defensive cores you can rely on. Unfortunately I don't have many replays besides one (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-288036682 which is pretty low ladder lol yet displays the sheer power of Mega Gyara anyway) So what do you guys think?
This is entirely about Ground v Megagyara, I haven't played Psychic, Ghost, Rock, or fire enough to know how it does.

Water's counter to generic Ground's water counter, Mega Gyarados is a massive threat to Ground at least. Mega Gyarados isn't really subject to any "who's the mega?" mixups in team preview, the only really good one is running Gyara and Swampert together on Water. No matter how great some low-ladderers think it is, RestTalk normal Gyara is garbage and is not worth calling a mixup.

Substitute is run on 34.7% of Gyaradoses on Water and 25.1% of Flying Gyaradoses use it. Not super common, it really appreciates Earthquake or Ice Fang's coverage options. If it does have Substitute, setting up with it on Ground is piss-easy. Unless they run Haze Quagsire, it's basically sac something to their water counter->sub with gyara->ddance all day. I find myself spamming Scald when Gyara is still up, because some people try to pull a fast one and switch in Gyara on a predicted Earth Power. 30%=100% when they switch in, usually, but usually it just serves to keep them scared, which is really the goal. Burning Slowbro is never awful either.

There are plenty of situations where you can potentially beat Mega Gyarados or at least scare it so the situation doesn't get dire. Assuming that only popular options are used on Ground (Excadrill, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Mamoswine, Lando-I, Gastrodon, Seismitoad, Camerupt, Nidoking, Lando-T, Gliscor), only "water counters" barring the meme set Haze Quagsire fail to stop Megagyara from setting up. I'm assuming that the Megagyara user is actually thinking about the battle and isn't Mega Evolving immediately.

0 SpA Seismitoad Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 48-57 (14.4 - 17.1%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Gastrodon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 32-38 (9.6 - 11.4%) -- possible 9HKO

Mega Gyarados doesn't shine on Flying like it does on Water, as it has Keldeo the Ground Destroyer himself to take out his #1 nemesis, Hippowdon the phazer, and it takes out Keldeo's "What do you mean I can't click Scald and watch things die?" mon, either Gastrodon or Seismitoad. Ground users have to predict perfectly and/or somehow scout Gyarados's Substitute to make the right switch to Hippowdon and phaze it, hopefully making it Mega Evolve to take less hazard damage

If you fuck up and let it set up, sacrificing Hippowdon, physically defensive Gastrodon with Earthquake (20.7% usage) at over 83% health without rocks or ~90% with rocks, and Adamant Life Orb/Jolly Choice Band Excadrill working in tandem is the only way to slay this beast at +2 behind a Substitute.

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 420-494 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 298-352 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 85-102 (25.6 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Always breaks subs)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 222-263 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage (after 2 turns of sand damage and the HP deduction from a substitute, this is a guaranteed kill)

Mega Gyarados is a huge threat, but tbh Specs Keldeo with HP Grass destroys Ground harder, IMO it's not an auto-win, it's beatable, but its difficult. Keep.

tl;dr: freeroamer's post
 
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Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
Mega Gyarados breakdown
Mega Gyarados is a great Mon. But I think The Monotype community is becoming a bit too ban happy. First of Mega Gyarados is very predictable 99% of the time is gonna have DD. Ok the Mega Gyra set that was showcased does not beat Fire or Rock (needs EQ). The main reason is Mega Gyra has to give up Sub making it lose to status which Psychic Ghost and Fire all have Wil-o-Wisp. If Crunch is replaced then Ghost and Psychic don't get swept. Mega Gyra will never be able to Sweep all of those types (it will only beat 3 at max). Also it can run Rest talk which is a very cool set to use Mono. Other than that it is very predictable.
Is Mega Gyarados autowin condition against those types?
No its not even close to an auto win condition vs those types. Here are some easy ways to beat it on "Generic Teams"
Psychic: Burn with Mew- Most mews outspeed Mega Gyarados because of speed investment
Gard- outspeeds before DD and kills with Hyper Voice. Also Trace Intimidate
Mega Gallade- takes a plus 1 Crunch and does massive damage to Regular Gyarados and Kills Mega Gyarados
Vicitni: Forces it to Mega Evolve and hits hard with Scarf Bolt Strike

Ghost- Sableye- utility Wil-o-Wisp set with Foul Play means Mega Gyarados is not problem CM Mega Sableye can still burn it
Also majority of ghost Mons hit it hard besides Jelicent on "Generic Ghost Team"

Rock- If Cradily physically defensive takes it on easily and forces it to Mega Evolve so Giga Drain does lots of damage
Mega Aggron sets up with it and beats it with curse
Mega Diancie- You need Iron Head Skarmory and it beats flying without Gliscor or Iron Head Skarmory (So it can't Set Up).
Terrakion- Scarf Revenge Kills it

Ground- Hippowdon- Sand wears it down plus SR and can force it out and make it mega evolve for powerful EQs
Excadrill- Outspeeds in Sand and hits it Hard (some 50 50's tho if its not mega evolved yet)
Mega Garchomp- Hits it hard with EQ/Stone Edge and lives a plus 1 Waterfall

Fire: Mega Charizard-Y Sun Support makes Gyarados' water attacks be cut in half
Scarfers- Most of them check Mega Gyarados and hit it hard on fire
Basically anything on Team if no EQ

Mega Gyarados is a great Mon in the Monotype Metagame, but it is not close to broken at all. You earn a Mega Gyarados sweep by predicting a Mon to come in. Mega Gyarados doesn't fit the criteria of banning Mon from this Metagame because it doesn't make a Psychic, Ghost, Ground, Fire, Rock users use different Mons just to beat Mega Gyarados. Also Flying has Mega Charizard-Y (equally viable if not better) so it isn't used all the time on flying. On Water there are other options ( Mega Sharpedo and DD Gatr, and Mega Swampert (mostly used on SS) ),but Mega Gyarados is the best one. Also before it Mega Evolves it loses 25% top SR which makes it lose some of its sweeping potential. Mega Gyarados is a great Mon in the Monotype Metagame, but it is not Ban worthy because the types it "beats" actually have multiple ways of beating it.
*Side note replays are not the best way to prove a Pokemon is broken because there are lots of variables in a battle (hax, player skill, etc.)
Good list, but 80% of these are going to die if Mega Gyarados has Dragon Danced at least once. Let's see; Mega Charizard Y's horrible defense will make it be 2HKO'd by Waterfall by a +1 Gyara, and if it flinches, it's dead, and your Monotype Fire Team is dead. Psychic. A +1 Crunch not only OHKOs Mew, who cannot outspeed it at +1, but Mega Gyarados can also live a Drain Punch from Gallade. Gallade will then die to another Crunch. Mega Gardevoir will be OHKO'd by Crunch or Waterfall at +1. Victini can Bolt Strike, but Mega Gyarados can just switch into a Landorus-Therian, which is a staple on Monotype Flying Teams. So that eliminates Psychic.
Fire. As I had said, if your Char is a lucky bastard it will live, but if it flinches or if Stealth Rock is set up, Char is dead. Infernape and Darmanitan are the only standard Choice Scarfers on Monotype Fire that are capable of damaging Mega Gyarados at the top of my head. How could you say "Basically Anything On Team if no EQ" if Mega Gyarados is a WATER type. Even in Sun, Mega Gyarados is going to land OHKO or severely damage both them. Fire has a huge weakness to Mega Gyarados, even in Sun, and all Fire teams must be prepared for it.

Well for the most part I agree with Rock. Terrakion can revenge kill it if Choice Scarf, Mega Diancie can Moonblast it but dies if Mega Gyarados is at +1. Mega Aggron is the only true counter to mega Gyarados.

Ground. Ice Fang. Garchomp. Ded. Excadrill. Waterfall. Ded.

So far, this discussion has covered Mega Sableye, Hoopa-Unbound, and Mega Gyarados as possible ban suspects, and what's really ironic is that none of them are remotely overpowered! They are all very centralizing, but none of them are as unstoppable as other bans were, such as Kyurem-White, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Slowbro. Both are basically the glue that holds their respective type together. Take one away, and watch the horror. Mega Sableye's death would make Dark incredibly weak to Fighting, and they would be more open to physical attackers in general. Hoopa-Unbound would take away the sheer offensive potential that Dark needs and deserves. Mega Gyarados is the best Mega for Flying, so why mess something that's good at what it does? They all have weaknesses, they aren't unstoppable, so in my opinion none of them are worthy of a ban.
 
I have to agree with most of what Physical Tyranitar said, if Gyarados already has a dd up, or if it's behind a sub it will most likely eliminate any threat to it on most of those monos.

But I have to disagree with Gyarados being the best mega for flying. I can tell you it is really amazing but it has a hard competition with Charizard-Y. The place where it really shines at is being the most viable out of water mono megas unless you are running Drizzle.

Overall it sounds really crazy to me wanting to ban Gyarados, never had a problem with it but it does seem like many types struggle with it so I could understand the need for a suspect.
 
Good list, but 80% of these are going to die if Mega Gyarados has Dragon Danced at least once. Let's see; Mega Charizard Y's horrible defense will make it be 2HKO'd by Waterfall by a +1 Gyara, and if it flinches, it's dead, and your Monotype Fire Team is dead. Psychic. A +1 Crunch not only OHKOs Mew, who cannot outspeed it at +1, but Mega Gyarados can also live a Drain Punch from Gallade. Gallade will then die to another Crunch. Mega Gardevoir will be OHKO'd by Crunch or Waterfall at +1. Victini can Bolt Strike, but Mega Gyarados can just switch into a Landorus-Therian, which is a staple on Monotype Flying Teams. So that eliminates Psychic.
Fire. As I had said, if your Char is a lucky bastard it will live, but if it flinches or if Stealth Rock is set up, Char is dead. Infernape and Darmanitan are the only standard Choice Scarfers on Monotype Fire that are capable of damaging Mega Gyarados at the top of my head. How could you say "Basically Anything On Team if no EQ" if Mega Gyarados is a WATER type. Even in Sun, Mega Gyarados is going to land OHKO or severely damage both them. Fire has a huge weakness to Mega Gyarados, even in Sun, and all Fire teams must be prepared for it.

Well for the most part I agree with Rock. Terrakion can revenge kill it if Choice Scarf, Mega Diancie can Moonblast it but dies if Mega Gyarados is at +1. Mega Aggron is the only true counter to mega Gyarados.

Ground. Ice Fang. Garchomp. Ded. Excadrill. Waterfall. Ded.

So far, this discussion has covered Mega Sableye, Hoopa-Unbound, and Mega Gyarados as possible ban suspects, and what's really ironic is that none of them are remotely overpowered! They are all very centralizing, but none of them are as unstoppable as other bans were, such as Kyurem-White, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Slowbro. Both are basically the glue that holds their respective type together. Take one away, and watch the horror. Mega Sableye's death would make Dark incredibly weak to Fighting, and they would be more open to physical attackers in general. Hoopa-Unbound would take away the sheer offensive potential that Dark needs and deserves. Mega Gyarados is the best Mega for Flying, so why mess something that's good at what it does? They all have weaknesses, they aren't unstoppable, so in my opinion none of them are worthy of a ban.
I'm gonna correct your ground point if that's ok. Gastrodon (especially physical defensive) and seismitoad (w/ grass knot) do a decent job of checking it. Exca in the sand once it's mega'd and sub's broken, can check if so long as it isnt max speed and passed +2. Mega Garchomp can check it, because it does not always run Ice fang. Usually more commonly it runs rest talk, taunt, or EQ over it. Mamoswine if you catch it early can also check it, but that's rare.

Banning Gyarados tbh is pretty absurd, yes its good, but it has it's faults, the biggest 1 probably being 4 moveslot syndrome.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Tiering Contributor
Gastrodon is set up bait unless you go out looking for Scald burns and it doesn't have sub, Seismi I kind of agree with cos it's fkin fat but uninvested G Knot barely does anything to base forme and doesn't 2hko mega either. rip Storm Drain/Water Absorb cos of Mold Breaker. Smart players will actually keep it in base forme to set up which forces you to go Hippo or Gastro, in the case of the former it gets a +1 Waterfall off severely weakening Hippo for next time round cos it's hard to heal hippo in these kind of matchups or Gastro you can either set up again then mevo and outspeed Exca. Keeping Chomp at max and making sure sand is up is generally your best bet vs Gyara because virtually none run Ice Fang as Crunch(130 BP when SE vs 120 after STAB) hits most stuff almost as hard and has better neutral coverage particularly vs Water types. There isn't really a defined way for Ground to beat Gyara more than playing smartly and managing the game well, a common trait in Monotype. This is why a key part of tiering philosophy here explains that not having defined counters for stuff on types doesn't necessarily make them broken, as often threats can be beaten through smart building and playing but more a mon shouldn't be able to 6-0 multiple monos from the lead spot.
 
Alright time to clear up some stuff, yes mega gyarados is a fantastic mon, but all you guys are forgetting something, it kinda has 4 move syndrome as in if you run dragon dance+ three attacks your begging to be burned or statused in some way, if you run sub dragon dance you only get two coverage moves so you will be getting walled by certain things, and my favorite set rn being spedef rest talk, which gives flying a great specs Keldeo check(if you don't mega) and mega Sableye check (no one runs cm dazzling gleam since early oras) along with walling every ice poke besides low kick weavile and mamoswine. But it lacks all breaking potential. And rest dragin dance is walled by any grass pokemon or slowbro for psychic.So in my opinion yes Mega Gyarados is a great mon but it shouldn't be suspected.

As for what Physical Tyranitar said, Landrous-Therian is not a staple on flying, yes it's a great stealth rocker and defensive pivot, but gliscor is a better pokemon at feeling in that roll because of its reliable recovery and being able to wall Mega diancie. And offensively I just used stealth rock Landrous Incarnate for the first time and got around 1550 with a 83 gxe, and it hits like a truck and great steel killer (unlike therain which loses to ferrothorn and skarmory)
 
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Ok, now i urge all of you to write thoughtful posts, I have seen couple of posts which are either just theorymon or have a lot of bias on them.

Mega Gyarados breakdown
Mega Gyarados is a great Mon. But I think The Monotype community is becoming a bit too ban happy. First of Mega Gyarados is very predictable 99% of the time is gonna have DD. Ok the Mega Gyra set that was showcased does not beat Fire or Rock (needs EQ). The main reason is Mega Gyra has to give up Sub making it lose to status which Psychic Ghost and Fire all have Wil-o-Wisp. If Crunch is replaced then Ghost and Psychic don't get swept. Mega Gyra will never be able to Sweep all of those types (it will only beat 3 at max). Also it can run Rest talk which is a very cool set to use Mono. Other than that it is very predictable.
Is Mega Gyarados autowin condition against those types?
No its not even close to an auto win condition vs those types. Here are some easy ways to beat it on "Generic Teams"
Psychic: Burn with Mew- Most mews outspeed Mega Gyarados because of speed investment
Gard- outspeeds before DD and kills with Hyper Voice. Also Trace Intimidate
Mega Gallade- takes a plus 1 Crunch and does massive damage to Regular Gyarados and Kills Mega Gyarados
Vicitni: Forces it to Mega Evolve and hits hard with Scarf Bolt Strike

Ghost- Sableye- utility Wil-o-Wisp set with Foul Play means Mega Gyarados is not problem CM Mega Sableye can still burn it
Also majority of ghost Mons hit it hard besides Jelicent on "Generic Ghost Team"

Rock- If Cradily physically defensive takes it on easily and forces it to Mega Evolve so Giga Drain does lots of damage
Mega Aggron sets up with it and beats it with curse
Mega Diancie- You need Iron Head Skarmory and it beats flying without Gliscor or Iron Head Skarmory (So it can't Set Up).
Terrakion- Scarf Revenge Kills it

Ground- Hippowdon- Sand wears it down plus SR and can force it out and make it mega evolve for powerful EQs
Excadrill- Outspeeds in Sand and hits it Hard (some 50 50's tho if its not mega evolved yet)
Mega Garchomp- Hits it hard with EQ/Stone Edge and lives a plus 1 Waterfall

Fire: Mega Charizard-Y Sun Support makes Gyarados' water attacks be cut in half
Scarfers- Most of them check Mega Gyarados and hit it hard on fire
Basically anything on Team if no EQ
Starting with the fact than half of your checks just die to a 1+ 1+ mega gyarados (which you could take in account in your calcs) and like the other half is just setup bait/can only whirlwind, only very few checks remain, mostly revenge killers. Also, saying everything on ghost/fire hits it hard is so inconclusive considering the water/dark typing. This is how a really list of checks could look:

Psychic:
Alakazam: Magic guard sash can reliable break sub or weak mega gyarados with dazzling gleam/focus miss letting megados in OHKO range for any revenge killer.
Victini: Revenge kill it, hoping mega gyarados don't attack from the bat or use a sub.

Ghost:
Sableye/mega sableye: specially with Foul Play, in case megados have sub or is the Resttalk variant.
Random gimmicks: Focus sash Golurk/Gengar/Froslass (with icy wind and Dbond), Dbond mega banette (someone use it at all? lol)

Rock:
Cradily: sacrifices itself for a 3HKO but stop megados to setup further, letting megados in OHKO range for terrakion.
Terrakion: same like victini, revenge hoping for no subs or attack from the bat

Ground:
Seismitoad: It have 50/50 chance with Grass knot, depending Gyarados is mega evolved or no
Mega garchomp: can take a a hit, and let megados in OHKO range for a revenge killer.
Hippowdon: It can just whirwind it away, while getting 2HKOed in return, but at least stop the sweep.
Excadrill/scarf nidoking: revenge killers, same situation like victini/terrakion, but with the add which sandstorm must be up for exca.

Fire: (im not taking in account Sunlight, because is a very unreliable factor, hard to maintain, and isnt said which Char-Y is still alive when megados comes up)
Victini/darmanitan/rotom-h: revenge killers, fears subs/attacks
Random gimmicks: Focus sash infernape

Physical Tyranitar said:
So far, this discussion has covered Mega Sableye, Hoopa-Unbound, and Mega Gyarados as possible ban suspects, and what's really ironic is that none of them are remotely overpowered! They are all very centralizing, but none of them are as unstoppable as other bans were, such as Kyurem-White, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Slowbro. Both are basically the glue that holds their respective type together. Take one away, and watch the horror. Mega Sableye's death would make Dark incredibly weak to Fighting, and they would be more open to physical attackers in general. Hoopa-Unbound would take away the sheer offensive potential that Dark needs and deserves. Mega Gyarados is the best Mega for Flying, so why mess something that's good at what it does? They all have weaknesses, they aren't unstoppable, so in my opinion none of them are worthy of a ban.
Just to point a thing: which a mon is a glue that hold a respective type don't allow it to remain unbanned if that is broken. Just see Aegislash on steel, it was the perfect glue for steels, but we banned it becos it was inherently broken on it.
Also, i disagree strongly when u say Mega sableye ban could make dark incredibly weak to fighting; normal sableye is hands down the best answer to any physical attacker in the tier, excluding fire/fairy mons or guts users, and for heracross/ conkeldurr darks have mandibuzz anyway, so yeah, if mega sableye goes away monodark will remain a potent threat, even again fightings. I don't get too why you say dark need and deserves Hoopa-U, specially when darks have other strong sweepers/wallbreakers available there. Im not again Hoopa-U remaining on dark, becos it normally need a choice scarf, making it predictable, but im gonna need more arguments to be convinced. It seems to me Hoopa U on dark makes it too cheap for monodarks to beat fightings now. Finally i think Megachar-y is the best mega for flyings, but dats another argument. On monowater is the best mega, i agree (unless SS teams with megapert)



Anyway, all that said, my opinion on Mega gyarados is:
Although it is a strong sweeper, and it have the bulk and the ability to sweep teams easily, my thoughts based on the second point of the Monotype Philosophy: Does it add to, or subtract from the metagame? are:

  • 1. If we ban mega gyarados, monoGround and monoRock will still be pwnd for monowater anyway, the problem here isn't the mon, the problem here is the matchup. Arguably Keldeo / SS mega swampert are bigger threats for those 2 monotypes. If used on monoflying, mega gyarados don't pressure those teams dat much.
  • 2. Like already pointed, in monoflying mega gyarados have big competition for a mega spot with Mega charizard-Y, so opportunity cost in this aspect.
  • 3. Finally Mega gyarados is a big threat for monopsychic, a top monotype in the tier. It can only help balance instead of be a letdown. In short it adds to the metagame.
The only letdown I find of letting megados in the tier is which it makes monoghost life a lot harder, but in short I don't think Mega gyarados deserve a suspect.
 
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Ridley

stay oras
is a Tutor
Ok, now i urge all of you to write thoughtful posts, I have seen couple of posts which are either just theorymon or have a lot of bias on them.


Starting with the fact than half of your checks just die to a 1+ 1+ mega gyarados (which you could take in account in your calcs) and like the other half is just setup bait/can only whirlwind, only very few checks remain, mostly revenge killers. Also, saying everything on ghost/fire hits it hard is so inconclusive considering the water/dark typing. This is how a really list of checks could look:

Psychic:
Alakazam: Magic guard sash can reliable break sub or weak mega gyarados with dazzling gleam/focus miss letting megados in OHKO range for any revenge killer.
Victini: Revenge kill it, hoping mega gyarados don't attack from the bat or use a sub.

Ghost:
Sableye/mega sableye: specially with Foul Play, in case megados have sub or is the Resttalk variant.
Random gimmicks: Focus sash Golurk/Gengar/Froslass (with icy wind and Dbond), Dbond mega banette (someone use it at all? lol)

Rock:
Cradily: sacrifices itself for a 3HKO but stop megados to setup further, letting megados in OHKO range for terrakion.
Terrakion: same like victini, revenge hoping for no subs or attack from the bat

Ground:
Seismitoad: It have 50/50 chance with Grass knot, depending Gyarados is mega evolved or no
Mega garchomp: can take a a hit, and let megados in OHKO range for a revenge killer.
Hippowdon: It can just whirwind it away, while getting 2HKOed in return, but at least stop the sweep.
Excadrill/scarf nidoking: revenge killers, same situation like victini/terrakion, but with the add which sandstorm must be up for exca.

Fire: (im not taking in account Sunlight, because is a very unreliable factor, hard to maintain, and isnt said which Char-Y is still alive when megados comes up)
Victini/darmanitan/rotom-h: revenge killers, fears subs/attacks
Random gimmicks: Focus sash infernape


Just to point a thing: which a mon is a glue that hold a respective type don't allow it to remain unbanned if that is broken. Just see Aegislash on steel, it was the perfect glue for steels, but we banned it becos it was inherently broken on it.
Also, i disagree strongly when u say Mega sableye ban could make dark incredibly weak to fighting; normal sableye is hands down the best answer to any physical attacker in the tier, excluding fire/fairy mons or guts users, and for heracross/ conkeldurr darks have mandibuzz anyway, so yeah, if mega sableye goes away monodark will remain a potent threat, even again fightings. I don't get too why you say dark need and deserves Hoopa-U, specially when darks have other strong sweepers/wallbreakers available there. Im not again Hoopa-U remaining on dark, becos it normally need a choice scarf, making it predictable, but im gonna need more arguments to be convinced. It seems to me Hoopa U on dark makes it too cheap for monodarks to beat fightings now. Finally i think Megachar-y is the best mega for flyings, but dats another argument. On monowater is the best mega, i agree (unless SS teams with megapert)



Anyway, all that said, my opinion on Mega gyarados is:
Although it is a strong sweeper, and it have the bulk and the ability to sweep teams easily, my thoughts based on the second point of the Monotype Philosophy: Does it add to, or subtract from the metagame? are:

  • 1. If we ban mega gyarados, monoGround and monoRock will still be pwnd for monowater anyway, the problem here isn't the mon, the problem here is the matchup. Arguably Keldeo / SS mega swampert are bigger threats for those 2 monotypes. If used on monoflying, mega gyarados don't pressure those teams dat much.
  • 2. Like already pointed, in monoflying mega gyarados have big competition for a mega spot with Mega charizard-Y, so opportunity cost in this aspect.
  • 3. Finally Mega gyarados is a big threat for monopsychic, a top monotype in the tier. It can only help balance instead of be a letdown. In short it adds to the metagame.
The only letdown I find of letting megados in the tier is which it makes monoghost life a lot harder, but in short I don't think Mega gyarados deserve a suspect.
You said, "Ok, now i urge all of you to write thoughtful posts, I have seen couple of posts which are either just theorymon or have a lot of bias on them," while you literally just took EXACTLY what other people said in prior posts and stuck it into one post. I'm not trying to be a debbie downer here, but let's try not to have debbie down syndrome when you're posting stuff on here.
 
Hey guys, Lord B33 here. So now that Mega Sableye suspect is pretty much confirmed by the council after the reset, let's steer the discussion to another extremely powerful set up sweeper, Mega Gyarados.

/


Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Substitute

This set can single-handedly destroy Psychic, Ghost, Rock, Ground and Fire. It can set up on pretty much any wall with Substitute and its damage output is insane. It gets Heal Bell support in BOTH of its types + both types get great defensive cores you can rely on. Unfortunately I don't have many replays besides one (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-288036682 which is pretty low ladder lol yet displays the sheer power of Mega Gyara anyway) So what do you guys think?
Mega Gyarados has a mediocre speed that isn't too fast even after +1 if adamant, and does not hit that impressively when Jolly. You have said Psychic has no way of dealing with a Sub Gyarados. Uhm Mew hits 263 Speed to creep Jolly Bisharp so it outspeeds and burns Gyarados anyways (unless you're bad and you don't run that), while Jolly is annoying, you can predict the sub and U-Turn with Victini. Also the fact that Gyarados has no reliable recovery proves the fact that it's not broken. lol what is gyarados setting up on Ghost except Jellicent? Nothing, Gengar hits hard, Chandy as well, Sableye burns, Hoopa hits hard, Aegislash kills with Sacred Sword. Rock is lol, it's not setting up infront of ttar, cradily, terrakion, diancie (if ur running shuckle then ur just bad sigh). Yes it is as dangerous as a Mega Scizor is to Rock, as a Keldeo is to Rock, so stop bringing stupid arguments. Ground has its ways of dealing with it, I have not seen any good ground user complain about it, and so shouldn't you. Lastly, Fire is too offensive and Gyarados has a hard time setting up if the fire user plays aggressively which you're supposed to do if you play with Fire.

Mega Gyarados is not even a bit of broken and thus please don't suggest it to be even suspect worthy.
 
Mega Gyarados has a mediocre speed that isn't too fast even after +1 if adamant, and does not hit that impressively when Jolly. You have said Psychic has no way of dealing with a Sub Gyarados. Uhm Mew hits 263 Speed to creep Jolly Bisharp so it outspeeds and burns Gyarados anyways (unless you're bad and you don't run that), while Jolly is annoying, you can predict the sub and U-Turn with Victini. Also the fact that Gyarados has no reliable recovery proves the fact that it's not broken. lol what is gyarados setting up on Ghost except Jellicent? Nothing, Gengar hits hard, Chandy as well, Sableye burns, Hoopa hits hard, Aegislash kills with Sacred Sword. Rock is lol, it's not setting up infront of ttar, cradily, terrakion, diancie (if ur running shuckle then ur just bad sigh). Yes it is as dangerous as a Mega Scizor is to Rock, as a Keldeo is to Rock, so stop bringing stupid arguments. Ground has its ways of dealing with it, I have not seen any good ground user complain about it, and so shouldn't you. Lastly, Fire is too offensive and Gyarados has a hard time setting up if the fire user plays aggressively which you're supposed to do if you play with Fire.

Mega Gyarados is not even a bit of broken and thus please don't suggest it to be even suspect worthy.
shuckle encores it
 
Ahem, shuckle rules the streets! To contribute to the conversation though, shuckle can encore gyara then either poison it, switch to a sub breaker / killer, or switch to cradily to force the mega evo to hit through storm drain.

Edit: sniped
 

Barian

formerly PK-Kaiser
ArVaDa- Come back and destroy ladder so I can win with my new meta squads.

Anyways in my opinion, People are getting a little bit ban happy, and after mega Sableye suspect, I feel there is nothing else to really look at in the current ORAS Monotype metagame as a whole and that's the most balanced it would get for now, although have to note how great we are doing atm.

#WoA
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Driver Alumnus
ArVaDa- Come back and destroy ladder so I can win with my new meta squads.

Anyways in my opinion, People are getting a little bit ban happy, and after mega Sableye suspect, I feel there is nothing else to really look at in the current ORAS Monotype metagame as a whole and that's the most balanced it would get for now, although have to note how great we are doing atm.

#WoA
It's a sign that Pokemon Z is going to be released soon and bring more OP megas to satisfy our thirst for bans. Mega Lapras

But I do completely agree that we're getting ban happy. Mega Gyarados guys? Really? There might be other mons worth looking at, but I can't honestly say anything should be suspected after Sablenite. Maybe something else will show up, but we'll just have to wait and see.
 

terrors

stfu
is a Contributor to Smogonis the defending Monotype Circuit Champion
So first off, I just want to clear up that my previous post was not asking for a Mega Gyarados ban. I don't why you guys interpreted it that way because the forums is NOT only about discussing bans. My post was merely meant to steer the discussion away from Mega Sab which is already been confirmed as a suspect and to hear what you guys think about Mega Gyarados.

Sorry about the kinda short post but I had to clear up.
 
mega riddley said:
You said, "Ok, now i urge all of you to write thoughtful posts, I have seen couple of posts which are either just theorymon or have a lot of bias on them," while you literally just took EXACTLY what other people said in prior posts and stuck it into one post. I'm not trying to be a debbie downer here, but let's try not to have debbie down syndrome when you're posting stuff on here.
I'm not asking people post rocket science posts or something, but when you saw mega gardevoir posted like a counter to mega gyarados when irl this happens: (I didnt like to posts calcs but whatever)

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 336-396 (121.2 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

mega gallade: (not that any monopsychic prefer this to mega gardevoir but anyways)

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 256-303 (92.4 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

mega diancie:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 302-356 (125.3 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

mew: (megados can even sub again mew becos outspeeding it at +1, and mew doing nothing at all)

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 492-578 (121.7 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, i specified revenge killers like excadrill, terrakion, victini, etc... are pretty shacky at best, because megados likes to use sub lot of times.

Finally the "everything on fire or ghost hit is hard" part. Megados can setup into a lot of monoghost: jellicent, choice locked chandelure, gourgeist after the intimidate (use sub to avoid burns), hell even cm mega sableye falls to it (it usually runs dark pulse).

+1 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 45-54 (13.5 - 16.3%) -- possible 7HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again monofire is a bit harder to setup, due to all monofire being ho, but i couldnt say "everything on fire with it hard" either

PK-Kaiser said:
Anyways in my opinion, People are getting a little bit ban happy, and after mega Sableye suspect, I feel there is nothing else to really look at in the current ORAS Monotype metagame as a whole and that's the most balanced it would get for now, although have to note how great we are doing atm.
Hoopa-u suspect tho, i mean in monodark it can be passable becos predictable with always choice scarf, but in monopsychic is different. Psychic had already a good offensive couple with Scarftini/Mega gardevoir, add to them Life orb Hoopa-u, and not many teams can handle the offensive pressure of Hoopa-U/Victini/Mega gardevoir. Hoopa-U just dismantle any walls for their other 2 partners to finish the job. I could talk about the defensive support mew/slowbro give to them but dats another story.
 
Last edited:

Barian

formerly PK-Kaiser
Well, until something else goes up or it starts being an issue by most of the community, my opinion will stay the same that everything is balanced as it is after Sableye suspect testing,
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Well, until something else goes up or it starts being an issue by most of the community, my opinion will stay the same that everything is balanced as it is after Sableye suspect testing,
Is that with either outcome or a particular one?
 
Interesting things this usage update, the most interesting for me is the huge plunge fire took, and that dark went down a tad, everything else seems reasonable (ground advancing because people noticed ground is still amazing)
As for the types themselves nothing looks that interesting, the biggest thing for me is probably the rise in slurpuff usage (its above sylveon now!)

Looking at the winrates it looks a bit surprising, the two types housing the super op its so good it just comes in and gg mega sableye have practically no good matchups, with darks best being poison (60%) and ghosts being fighting (58%) ofc im ignoring dark vs ghost were dark wins 74% but ofc mega sableye wins a mega sableye vs mega sableye fight. This leaves the types with dark having -2 good matchups and ghost having -11 (if you count the raw matchups its 0 dark and -4 ghost, still pretty average for something supposedly so broken.

Just wanting to point some things out, ofc everyone knows that ladder players are horrible and nothing can be taken seriously their (/sarcasm) but for me atleast this has changed the way i view sableye (slightly).

In an effort to prevent the sableye discussion i probably just revived, what are your thoughts on fire? Its now the 2nd LEAST used type, sitting at 3.11 usage. This puts it under everything except for ice. Is it still a viable type? I have no clue how fire works since Ive never even attempted maining it or even using it a bit, but ive always seen the huge sr weakness as a huge downfall, its not like the top tier ho type fighting were rocks dont really affect it, rocks affect fire to the point were it runs torkoal (it can be good, but ive never really seen torkoal as wow its this amazing ho mon that just happens to remove hazards! its just wow this bulky thing but its saving grace is it removes hazards!) or runs defog charizard (nice 50% hp remaining, unless you switch it into the rocker which might not work out since stone edge heatran etc.). What are your opinions on fire currently?
 
What are your thoughts on fire? Its now the 2nd LEAST used type, sitting at 3.11 usage. This puts it under everything except for ice. Is it still a viable type? I have no clue how fire works since Ive never even attempted maining it or even using it a bit, but ive always seen the huge sr weakness as a huge downfall, its not like the top tier ho type fighting were rocks dont really affect it, rocks affect fire to the point were it runs torkoal (it can be good, but ive never really seen torkoal as wow its this amazing ho mon that just happens to remove hazards! its just wow this bulky thing but its saving grace is it removes hazards!) or runs defog charizard (nice 50% hp remaining, unless you switch it into the rocker which might not work out since stone edge heatran etc.). What are your opinions on fire currently?
The fact that Stealth Rock is a thing is probably the main reason Fire will never crack the top 5 types in mono... Bug and Flying get around this with great removal options (Skarm, Forretress, Zapdos, Armaldo, and Scizor are the best ones), while Ice is doomed to lose to SR (even so, they get Avalugg; Torkoal dreams of having the same kind of utility on a fire team).

Despite this, Fire has great offensive options, which help HO playstyles stand out due to high-power attacks (V-create, Flare Blitz, Fire Blast, etc.) and the tendency of HO not to switch around so much (mitigating SR). It's best mega does take 50%, but at least gets roost and forces enough switches to find opportunities to recover damage. Most fire teams run Nape/Heatran anyway, who both are neutral to rocks, and Torkoal usually only appears on the field once per battle (usually at the beginning to set/remove rocks and spread as much status as possible before dying).

All things considered, Fire would be a good mid-tier type (certainly better than grass/ice/electric/rock and friends, but has some serious flaws that prevent it from competing evenly against dragon/water/psychic/dark). This is all, of course, my opinion based on using fire every now and then and battling vs. other fire teams.
 

Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
Fire is one of the better lower-tier types, but lacks variety of roles which only allow it to play Offensive and Hyper Offensive effectively. Literally, the majority of the options involve no stall at all, only trying to knock out your Pokemon with sun-boosted attacks, which unfortunately leads it to being walled and losing matches because it has terrible defense. Mega Charizard Y granting neutrality to Water isn't enough usually, as Fire will usually lose against Water. Fire is terrible at any form of defense. If Mega Charizard Y dies early in the game, Fire loses a significant boost of power and a special attacker. Fire is a good type but it doesn't fare well against its weaknesses, even Water.

This is why Volcanion can change all of that. It will be the first Fire Pokemon immune to Water, and it's STAB Water attacks can blast Rock and Ground Types. Volcanion is definitely going to be A or S Rank, it's gonna do good, and then somebody is going to suggest that it should be banned, and then the discussion will change to how Volcanion is "too powerful for the metagame and definitely deserves a suspect". And then in the end it isn't going to be banned, and then the next groundbreaking Pokemon will be released, and we'll worry about that.
 

Wanka

a suh
is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributor
Monotype Leader
This is why Volcanion can change all of that. It will be the first Fire Pokemon immune to Water, and it's STAB Water attacks can blast Rock and Ground Types. Volcanion is definitely going to be A or S Rank, it's gonna do good, and then somebody is going to suggest that it should be banned, and then the discussion will change to how Volcanion is "too powerful for the metagame and definitely deserves a suspect". And then in the end it isn't going to be banned, and then the next groundbreaking Pokemon will be released, and we'll worry about that.
<3 assuming things for no reason. Real talk tho like why did you even feel the need to say that, it does nothing for a discussion.

As for fire....fire is one of those types that can be somewhat difficult to just pick up and have instant success with. You kinda have to just play with it a crap ton to figure out how you can get around threats and what sets fit the best because there isn't much room for creativity on fire that will lead to success as opposed to some of the top types.

It can be done though. I've seen a few alts in the most recent core challenge break 1500 (I cu Arken) and at the end of the day, HO types can have good success if you can get your doubles on point and you are able to assess wincons to get that game winning sweep. Yeah SR is quite the issue but I wouldn't put fire at the very bottom just yet even though its usage says otherwise, it can still be an effective type.
 

Barian

formerly PK-Kaiser
Wow, interesting read O.O, Fire dropped so much in usage, even below grass. Was kinda expecting the drop in fire viability but not like this
 
On rock mega diancie seems to be prefered to mega aggron now tho. AV seismitoad is now more popular than gastrodon on ground, dragalge is used like a lot on dragons now, and finally mega gallade usage increased in both monofight and monopsychic, but that was probably just hype for the mega gallade unban and will decrease usage this month.

About types, dragon and ground rising again becos people realized were still lord types. Dark being lower seems odd, but maybe is for the fighting increase usage last month. Now normal being into the 9 low tier range will doom all the other low tiers monos with the eviolite core. Fire drop is like woah, yeah SR weakness and does bad again every other weather (except ice but dats irrelevant) but yeah, fire dropped a lot. And ice being bad as always lol (lets hope pokemon Z bring something like an ice/fighting mon with geomancy or something broken like dat for ices lol)
 

Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
<3 assuming things for no reason. Real talk tho like why did you even feel the need to say that, it does nothing for a discussion.

As for fire....fire is one of those types that can be somewhat difficult to just pick up and have instant success with. You kinda have to just play with it a crap ton to figure out how you can get around threats and what sets fit the best because there isn't much room for creativity on fire that will lead to success as opposed to some of the top types.

It can be done though. I've seen a few alts in the most recent core challenge break 1500 (I cu Arken) and at the end of the day, HO types can have good success if you can get your doubles on point and you are able to assess wincons to get that game winning sweep. Yeah SR is quite the issue but I wouldn't put fire at the very bottom just yet even though its usage says otherwise, it can still be an effective type.
The reason I said that was because the Monotype Community has discussed several Pokemon of the like being suspected, and I assumed this because it will be brought up or implied at least once in this discussion. Volcanion is obviously going to S Rank for Monotype Fire once it is released, because it will be the first Fire-Type Pokemon that is immune to Water Type Attacks, and it could blast Rock and Ground Types. Since Volcanion will probably not go to Ubers in the regular metagame, it will probably be allowed in Monotype.

I was not assuming things for no reason; it's a real possibility that could actually happen. Mega Sableye is one of the glues that holds Dark and Ghost Teams together, and it was discussed. To a lesser extent, the same thing goes for Hoopa-Unbound and Mega Gyarados. At first I was being sarcastic in my tone about banning Volcanion, but now that I hear myself I vaguely think that it could actually happen. I guess it doesn't meet the requirements to be banned, but who are we to know, it hasn't been released!

And I'm pretty sure somewhat mentioned the release of Pokemon Z is soon. Usually, non-remake able games come right after the game series, so Pokemon Z may just be a myth, but then again, I could be wrong.
As for that, does anybody have any citations for this to prove if Pokemon Z has actually been confirmed? If not, it deserves no mention in the metagame in my opinion until it is confirmed.
 
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