Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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I hate to bring this up again, but this is a point that I need to get across to people as these people are potential voters in a sablenite suspect test:

Do not cite team support as the sole reason Mega-Sableye should be banned.

Reasoning:
Team support is definitely a factor in how good a pokemon can perform, this is true. However, this is akin to saying "it doesn't matter if you pack a Weavile to counter my DD Dragonite; I will simply switch out to Skarmory and your counter means nothing".

I have seen multiple times that people claim that Mega-Sableye makes the matchup lopsided vs. poison teams; this is simply not true. Tentacruel is an excellent answer to the CM set (and if it's a restalk set, it is a hard counter and switches in every time to force out mega-sableye; which btw is not overcentralizing as this also shuts down many stally mons that can be found on many different teams). The utility set is a little harder to deal with, but it struggles to break past Mega-Venusaur / Weezing, and don't forget that poison attacking moves will eventually poison Mega-Sableye through Magic Bounce, assuming that you haven't scald-burned it yet).

I will repeat this in case you missed it; RestTalk Tentacruel is right up there with Volcarona in terms of an excellent mega-sab answer. Obviously Tenta is beaten by Bisharp / Aegislash and friends, but you can say the same for Volc vs. Chandelure / Tyranitar, and nobody is discounting Volc as an excellent answer to Mega-Sableye.

The team support argument, if cited as the main reason it is banned (if it's banned) will lead the Monotype Metagame down a very slippery slope. All of a sudden, Mega-Scizor is too stronk against Rock/Ice/Fairy since hey, it has 5 teammates to rely on in case the rock/ice/fairy player has something that beats it. Let's ban Mega-Scizor!

Or, Lando-I is too strong vs. poison/electric/rock/steel/fire types, and even though I can pack HPice Gengar / Kabutops / w/e, it doesn't matter since I can switch out to my Skarm/Gastrodon/Gyarados. Therefore, team support makes Lando-I too good for monotype, and is overcentralizing; let's ban it!

.... I hope Monotype does not make this mistake. If Mega-Sableye is really such an over-centralizing mon that it takes at least 2 pokemon to not auto-lose to it, then I will accept it when it gets banned. In my experience battling (vs. both n00bs and battlers who know what they're doing), this is not the case.

One final point I'd like to bring up, is that just because a pokemon is good enough to be seen on 99% of teams of that type, does not mean it is overcentralizing. Heatran is found on 99.99% of fire and steel teams today, and requires 1-3 pokemon to check it on ice/grass/steel/bug teams and is more unpredictable than Mega-Sableye (with excellent team support on Steel). Yet nobody is crying for Heatran to get banned...
I don't believe in the point of having something being common on teams, that it should be banned. If its common, and its more importantly dominating the meta, there is a definite problem. Such as there's point in not using it, in the case of broken megas in the past, such as M-Luke, M-Kang, but I just bring that up as a case when a new broken mon arises. Thankfully(Fu gamefreak), there aren't really any mons that dominated the metas such as those anymore. But if a pokemon, say, Hippowdon on Ground, or Skarmory on Steel, that is just insanely good on the type and gives insane support to the other members of the team in various ways, they aren't really broken. They are just good mons that warrant usage because they're good in the type and in the meta in general. I don't your example is really that good for this reason, near the end.

But let's be real here, there is not much drawbacks to using Mega Eye over any other Dark mega. Other megas do not provide the sheer utility and bulk of M-Eye, and the only one that comes close is Tyranitar-M, and it is worn down by passive damage over time anyhow. Anyhow, team support is a real reason some pokemon get banned. Think back to Char X and why it was banned, not because of how strong it was alone. Incredibly strong, but defensive team support from pokemon like Skarmory, and offensive support like Lando-I broke cores down for it to finish. So I don't think not citing team support is not a good thing. I think team support can be cited for a reason mons get banned. Referring back to early XY, DeoSharp was an insanely powerful hazard stacking core that dominated the metagame of OU. the pokemon that provided that broken support was suspected and banned from the tier to make it more balanced. M-Eye gives potentially broken support in some matchups, therefore I think it can be cited then.

Just my thoughts anyways.
 
I don't believe in the point of having something being common on teams, that it should be banned. If its common, and its more importantly dominating the meta, there is a definite problem. Such as there's point in not using it, in the case of broken megas in the past, such as M-Luke, M-Kang, but I just bring that up as a case when a new broken mon arises. Thankfully(Fu gamefreak), there aren't really any mons that dominated the metas such as those anymore. But if a pokemon, say, Hippowdon on Ground, or Skarmory on Steel, that is just insanely good on the type and gives insane support to the other members of the team in various ways, they aren't really broken. They are just good mons that warrant usage because they're good in the type and in the meta in general. I don't your example is really that good for this reason, near the end.

But let's be real here, there is not much drawbacks to using Mega Eye over any other Dark mega. Other megas do not provide the sheer utility and bulk of M-Eye, and the only one that comes close is Tyranitar-M, and it is worn down by passive damage over time anyhow. Anyhow, team support is a real reason some pokemon get banned. Think back to Char X and why it was banned, not because of how strong it was alone. Incredibly strong, but defensive team support from pokemon like Skarmory, and offensive support like Lando-I broke cores down for it to finish. So I don't think not citing team support is not a good thing. I think team support can be cited for a reason mons get banned. Referring back to early XY, DeoSharp was an insanely powerful hazard stacking core that dominated the metagame of OU. the pokemon that provided that broken support was suspected and banned from the tier to make it more balanced. M-Eye gives potentially broken support in some matchups, therefore I think it can be cited then.

Just my thoughts anyways.
Char-X is a different beast altogether. If it got one free turn it was GG for some types altogether (sorry electric) and while the support definitely helped it get the free turn it needed, the fact remains that all it needs is that one turn. Mega-Sab even at +1 CM isn't on the same level as Mega-Zard X after 1 DD.

The fact that it is better than any other dark Mega isn't any more of a point than Mega-Diancie or Mega-Gallade or Mega-Pinsir being better than their competition on Rock/Fighting/Bug, respectively. Yes a case can be made for other megas on these types, just like a case can be made for Mega-Sharpedo or Mega-Ttar on dark. Mega-Sableye is usually the better choice for Dark but some teams would genuinely benefit from more immediate offensive presence from their mega.

Mega-Sableye is not a similar case as Mega-Kang or Mega-Luke; these had very few checks and no counters, and only needed one free turn and very little team support to wreck teams. Mega-Sableye has hard counters (which have been brought up time and time again in this thread), many more checks that can be incorporated into most monoteams, and while it is a very good pokemon that should definitely be accounted for in team-building, doesn't really cause any "broken" support. The fact that it performs as well as it does is more of a testament to how good Dark is in general (Ghost is good too, but let's be honest Dark is the one tearing it up on upper ladder), and assuming we don't want to ban it solely to nerf Dark or resort to a type-only ban, I find it hard to support banning Mega-Sableye as things are now.
 
Char-X is a different beast altogether. If it got one free turn it was GG for some types altogether (sorry electric) and while the support definitely helped it get the free turn it needed, the fact remains that all it needs is that one turn. Mega-Sab even at +1 CM isn't on the same level as Mega-Zard X after 1 DD.

The fact that it is better than any other dark Mega isn't any more of a point than Mega-Diancie or Mega-Gallade or Mega-Pinsir being better than their competition on Rock/Fighting/Bug, respectively. Yes a case can be made for other megas on these types, just like a case can be made for Mega-Sharpedo or Mega-Ttar on dark. Mega-Sableye is usually the better choice for Dark but some teams would genuinely benefit from more immediate offensive presence from their mega.

Mega-Sableye is not a similar case as Mega-Kang or Mega-Luke; these had very few checks and no counters, and only needed one free turn and very little team support to wreck teams. Mega-Sableye has hard counters (which have been brought up time and time again in this thread), many more checks that can be incorporated into most monoteams, and while it is a very good pokemon that should definitely be accounted for in team-building, doesn't really cause any "broken" support. The fact that it performs as well as it does is more of a testament to how good Dark is in general (Ghost is good too, but let's be honest Dark is the one tearing it up on upper ladder), and assuming we don't want to ban it solely to nerf Dark or resort to a type-only ban, I find it hard to support banning Mega-Sableye as things are now.
I'll be honest Arash, in my Dark CC run, I've been toying around with a dragon dance ttar set. It already had great natural strength, and sandstorm gives it fantastic special bulk. It sweeps fairly easily. Mega Sharpedo from what I'm aware is also pretty good, great revenge killer (especially destiny bond sets). And Houndoom is even very usable, as a special sweeper/wallbreaker qnd a great way to cover bug. Yes sableye is pretty good, however, your very right that dark is dominating, Ghost hasn't really gone places, and tbh the reliable hazards control is nice. I think once the suspect comes around I'll whip up a ghost team and see how it does.
 
I think ridley brings up a fantastic point about hoopas wallbreaking ability while not being able to take up a mega slot which leaves the door open to use mega garde as well which on paper, seems like insta wins against balance builds with their sheer power. The thing about psychic (and this is probably just me) is that I don't think mew and slowbro are as good of support mons as ttar, mandi, and sable and aegi, sable, and jelli. Now, I probably feel that way because obviously those are cores of 3 mons as opposed to only mew and bro, but the main reason I don't like mew and bro as much is because I really only don't like mew. Mew has 5MSS (five move slot syndrom) at times for me and it can be extremely passive. It usually doubles up as a rocker and a defogger which takes up two slots right there along with will-o which is three. You are then most likely going to add on roost for longevity so you miss out on things like taunt, heal bell, or knock off. or you risk not running defog or roost and then you leave yourself prone to types like like to spike and stack hazards (grass, steel, fairy, flying, and bug?) and not having roost means you can't wall stuff as well. I have seen some cool mew sets that can get around the passiveness but it is somewhat difficult to dodge it.

In a nutshell what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the support mons for hoopa on psy are AS effective as they might seem, but they are still strong without a doubt. I just don't really like mew all that much. All in all I think we need to give hoopa a lot more time, Acast made a good point in saying that some of us were a little quick ban happy when hoopa first got realeased (including myself) so I think it should just chill for a bit longer until we see a glaring issue with it. It's ability is hindered on dark with it really only being able to run scarf sets so on dark its fine. Psychic isn't overly powerful either so it really shouldn't be too too much of an issue for people because psy is balanced out with dark being an extremely common type on the mid to higher ladder. If dark wasn't so popular than there would defo be focused on a lot more but I can see slow adaptations to the 6 armed monster so I'd leave it be for now.

I kinda suck at getting my point across on here sometimes so I apologize if I made that sound really over complicated and weird.
Mew is honestly a mediocre Defog user. The only Defog users that I would consider on Psychic would be Latios or Latias, that is cause Sticky Web Bug is so common that you either need Taunt Deo-S (to prevent it from going up) or a Defog user with Levitate to Defog without being KOed first by a bug move. In my experience with Mew it has very few chances to Defog without being killed if the opponent is running Sticky Web.
 
Mew is honestly a mediocre Defog user. The only Defog users that I would consider on Psychic would be Latios or Latias, that is cause Sticky Web Bug is so common that you either need Taunt Deo-S (to prevent it from going up) or a Defog user with Levitate to Defog without being KOed first by a bug move. In my experience with Mew it has very few chances to Defog without being killed if the opponent is running Sticky Web.
You're wrong, Mew is an excellent defogger. Bug ain't common at all, after the Genesect ban. In July Bug had 10.60% Type Usage which dropped to a 6.82% it has now. Mew also has a good enough bulk to tank most Super Effective hits that you say is getting thrown at it.
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 152+ Def Mew: 300-354 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 240-284 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 306-360 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
Volcarona sets up on it, Galvantula 2HKOes thanks to Focus Sash, Hera is interesting but MegaHera still OHKOes. The problem with Mew is that it can't switch into anything on Bug to try to defog, it has to come out after something has died on in a slow U-turn and then defog and then be 2HKOed in return. That's really unpractical for a Defogger.
 
Volcarona sets up on it, Galvantula 2HKOes thanks to Focus Sash, Hera is interesting but MegaHera still OHKOes. The problem with Mew is that it can't switch into anything on Bug to try to defog, it has to come out after something has died on in a slow U-turn and then defog and then be 2HKOed in return. That's really unpractical for a Defogger.
It.s weak to bug like all psychic types, even if, there are taunt sets, and its very bulky.
 
Please learn to read, I was referring to Mew as a Defogger against Bug. Galvantula outspeeds so Taunt is useless and having a Defog user that can't defog against bug means you're dying to Sticky Web.
 
Mew is honestly a mediocre Defog user. The only Defog users that I would consider on Psychic would be Latios or Latias, that is cause Sticky Web Bug is so common that you either need Taunt Deo-S (to prevent it from going up) or a Defog user with Levitate to Defog without being KOed first by a bug move. In my experience with Mew it has very few chances to Defog without being killed if the opponent is running Sticky Web.
Ok let me try to break down this mew defog thing because this is really annoying me
Not all bug teams run Galvantula for Sticky Webs which is the only sticky weber you are referring all the time in saying Mew is a bad Defoger. Bug also has Shuckle as a way to set up the webs because of sturdy and the bulk it has. Mew has the ability to prevent webs with taunt or if its mental herb Defog them with ease. Vs Bug lati is alright but it needs HP Fire to do virtually any damage to bug team (Scizor just sets up on you or just u-turns as you switch into Victni weakening your win con if no HP Fire or you lose a Mon). Also not to mention Scarf Herracross outspeeds and takes out Latis (unless you wanna Scarf Defog and have Volc set up on you or Scizor) Saying Mew is a mediocre Defoger on Psychic because it struggles(it still has lots of opportunities to use it) do it vs 1 type is just wrong. Vs every other type it has no problem Defoging with ease because of its bulk and reliable recovery. Also not to mention most Latis are Life Orb and do not carry roost which means it can be worn down easily. Also one more thing to mention is that it does a decent job vs Mega Pinsir which is the most common bug mega atm. Also being able to Taunt Pokemon from setting up hazards in first place (Victini doesn't get weakened and it defogs vs most of Rockers on Bug taking no damage unlike latis twins which take massive damage from gyro ball from Fortress and knock off from Armaldo) Mew is a great Defoger on Psychic teams it is the farthest thing form a mediocre Defoger in the monotype tier (even vs bug).
*Also ThimoTheUltimateBOBO's Calcs Prove my point as well
here are some more to add to his calcs
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 416-492 (130.4 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Mew: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (84 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 100-118 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (putting yourself in bp range with lo plus rocks just to defog)
0 Atk Armaldo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 204-240 (68.2 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (latios loses life orb and can't ohko without lo just to defog)
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 256-303 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (if its spedef then latios does nothing without its lo)
 
ivid I completely agree with that wholeheartedly as a avid bug user my self but heres the thing psychic is easily countered for example in mews case if its willowisp roost defog etc set then its weak to special moves and it normally would use Willo first on bug teams so that means switch Volcarona and set up Sweeparona since mew is the go to defogger if you eliminate that its easy, and with the boosts it literally will be sweeparona now latias could live a normal volcs hit but latios completely dies the latis hope vs. volc is to use psyshock which normally ohkoes if its the speedy set, if not then they are screwed unless you carry surf...

now hoopa shoudnt be banned for DARK for psychic it completely rapes Psychic and ghost a Hyperspace hole nearly ohkoes aegislash (in shield form) which means it ohkoes almost everything on these teams except for a few mons like sableye/spiritomb for ghost and psychic a scarfed tini with u turn or any bug type move in all ohkoes hoopaU
 
Alright, you don't seem to get it so I'll be more clear. Against Bug, with sticky web already on Mew is FORCED to defog, if he doesn't he might not have another chance because most bugs will 2HKO it, and if he doesn't then those webs are there to stay and your team is in a huge dissadventahe against offensive Bug.

Latias and latios don't have this problem, since they outspeed they can fire off a Draco Metor / Psyshock and heavy damage / kill anything they have against. You're not forced to defog inmediately because you don't stop being a treath, you get to choose when to defog. In Mew's case your treath level is significantly lower if you are at -1, and the high chance of this being your only shot at using Defog means it can do little else and is mostly dead weight against Bug.

Same problem with Starmie, it's awesome but when it's come to Bug it doesn't get many chances to actually spin.
 

Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
In my opinion, a lot of Pokemon that have been discussed to be potentially banned are centralizing, but are not overpowered. But I'm not gonna get into a discussion about Hoopa-Unbound and Mega Sableye because of obvious reasons.

Anyway, are we allowed to write analysis for Pokemon, despite the Monotype Viability Thread being locked? I'm not going to write something that adds no contribution to the conversation (I asked if I could write one for Volcanion), but as much as it pains me to say this, I disagree with Tyranitar being S Rank in Monotype Dark. I think it's worthy of a high A Rank but S Rank is pushing it a little; though it is the best SR user in the type, it isn't as centralizing as other staples to a Monotype Dark team, such as Mandibuzz, the type's standard physical wall, Mega Sableye, the type's best staller and crippler, and Hoopa-Unbound, one of the hardest-hitting wallbreakers not only in Monotype, but the game itself.

On a different note, I think that Dragon is still a very good type. We get it- it has a hard time with Fairies. But Dragon has some options to get rid of fairies, be it Dragalge, and Iron Head, which can score a lot of 2HKOs because Dragon has raw offensive potential. I don't know any Fairy that doesn't fear a +2 Garchomp, or even a Choice Scarf Iron Head Black Kyurem. You could run Assault Vest Dragalge to be your go-to guy when the opponent has Specs or is setup or something, and though Draglage dies to Mega Gardevoir, I can name about five dragons that can come in, outspeed and OHKO Mega Gardevoir, should it be weakened.

You're wrong, Mew is an excellent defogger. Bug ain't common at all, after the Genesect ban. In July Bug had 10.60% Type Usage which dropped to a 6.82% it has now. Mew also has a good enough bulk to tank most Super Effective hits that you say is getting thrown at it.
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 152+ Def Mew: 300-354 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 240-284 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 306-360 (75.9 - 89.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Latias/Latios can't switch in on bug to defog either..
What is this. Mew according to these calcs, will barely live and be picked off the next turn. Plus, nothing in Psychic can truly switch into Bug. I guess Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gallade can, but that's irrelevant, because they cannot Defog. Should you choose a Psychic Defog, avoid trying to switch in all together.
 
In my opinion, a lot of Pokemon that have been discussed to be potentially banned are centralizing, but are not overpowered. But I'm not gonna get into a discussion about Hoopa-Unbound and Mega Sableye because of obvious reasons.

Anyway, are we allowed to write analysis for Pokemon, despite the Monotype Viability Thread being locked? I'm not going to write something that adds no contribution to the conversation (I asked if I could write one for Volcanion), but as much as it pains me to say this, I disagree with Tyranitar being S Rank in Monotype Dark. I think it's worthy of a high A Rank but S Rank is pushing it a little; though it is the best SR user in the type, it isn't as centralizing as other staples to a Monotype Dark team, such as Mandibuzz, the type's standard physical wall, Mega Sableye, the type's best staller and crippler, and Hoopa-Unbound, one of the hardest-hitting wallbreakers not only in Monotype, but the game itself.

On a different note, I think that Dragon is still a very good type. We get it- it has a hard time with Fairies. But Dragon has some options to get rid of fairies, be it Dragalge, and Iron Head, which can score a lot of 2HKOs because Dragon has raw offensive potential. I don't know any Fairy that doesn't fear a +2 Garchomp, or even a Choice Scarf Iron Head Black Kyurem. You could run Assault Vest Dragalge to be your go-to guy when the opponent has Specs or is setup or something, and though Draglage dies to Mega Gardevoir, I can name about five dragons that can come in, outspeed and OHKO Mega Gardevoir, should it be weakened.







What is this. Mew according to these calcs, will barely live and be picked off the next turn. Plus, nothing in Psychic can truly switch into Bug. I guess Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gallade can, but that's irrelevant, because they cannot Defog. Should you choose a Psychic Defog, avoid trying to switch in all together.
The rank pokemon are is now discussed here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-resources.3550310/
 
On a different note, I think that Dragon is still a very good type. We get it- it has a hard time with Fairies. But Dragon has some options to get rid of fairies, be it Dragalge, and Iron Head, which can score a lot of 2HKOs because Dragon has raw offensive potential. I don't know any Fairy that doesn't fear a +2 Garchomp, or even a Choice Scarf Iron Head Black Kyurem. You could run Assault Vest Dragalge to be your go-to guy when the opponent has Specs or is setup or something, and though Draglage dies to Mega Gardevoir, I can name about five dragons that can come in, outspeed and OHKO Mega Gardevoir, should it be weakened.
Dragalge getting reamed by Mega-Gardevoir (one of the most common fairy attackers in the metagame) is a pretty big deal. Mega-Garde outspeeds all unboosted dragons except Garchomp, Latis (who cannot OHKO back), and Noivern (ditto), and while scarfed Kyu-B makes a fantastic check, it can never switch in as Garde will be spamming Hyper Voice guaranteed.

Dragon is still a good type overall, like you said, but Fairies and Psychic teams with Mega-Garde are still heavily favored against Dragon. Dragalge is also not doing much to defend the team against fairy attacks, since it is slower than all fairies and due to its piss-poor defense, it loses to the two most popular in the metagame, Mega-Garde and Azumarill (though Azu cannot OHKO it unboosted and does 70-85%, Dragalge can't take a Play Rough + any other attack (not even an Aqua Jet), and doesn't outspeed Azu)
 
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Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
Dragalge getting reamed by Mega-Gardevoir (one of the most common fairy attackers in the metagame) is a pretty big deal. Mega-Garde outspeeds all unboosted dragons except Garchomp, Latis (who cannot OHKO back), and Noivern (ditto), and while scarfed Kyu-B makes a fantastic check, it can never switch in as Garde will be spamming Hyper Voice guaranteed.

Dragon is still a good type overall, like you said, but Fairies and Psychic teams with Mega-Garde are still heavily favored against Dragon. Dragalge is also not doing much to defend the team against fairy attacks, since it is slower than all fairies and due to its piss-poor defense, it loses to the two most popular in the metagame, Mega-Garde and Azumarill (though Azu cannot OHKO it unboosted and does 70-85%, Dragalge can't take a Play Rough + any other attack (not even an Aqua Jet), and doesn't outspeed Azu)
Yeah, Dragon has a lot of problems with Fairies, so significant planning is needed to be able to defeat it. It's kinda sad that Dragon has been steadily falling from grace since the Sixth Generation. It used to be the love of the metagame, but the introduction of Fairies are very detrimental to Dragons. Dragalge isn't physically bulky enomugh to wall Azumarill. And none of its Megas are trulying "on-point", and although Mega Garchomp, Mega Latios and Mega Latias are good, they are all considered the Mega Evolutions that are inferior to it's pre-mega state.

Happy Halloween
 
I think that's more a testament of the base dragons already being incredibly amazing rather than the megas being underwhelming. In OU the only dragon Megas that significantly boosted the base Dragon where banned (Salamence) or made a NU pokemon into OU (Altaria). Maybe Pokemon Z will give Drudiggon or Kingdra a Mega.
 

terrors

stfu
is a Contributor to Smogonis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
Hey guys, Lord B33 here. So now that Mega Sableye suspect is pretty much confirmed by the council after the reset, let's steer the discussion to another extremely powerful set up sweeper, Mega Gyarados.

/


Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Substitute

This set can single-handedly destroy Psychic, Ghost, Rock, Ground and Fire. It can set up on pretty much any wall with Substitute and its damage output is insane. It gets Heal Bell support in BOTH of its types + both types get great defensive cores you can rely on. Unfortunately I don't have many replays besides one (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-288036682 which is pretty low ladder lol yet displays the sheer power of Mega Gyara anyway) So what do you guys think?
 
It seems interesting how a pokemon like Gyarados can bring ban-worthy problems to a team. I personally don't find mega Gyarados overpowered but I guess it does meet the criteria of a ban (aka beating 3 or more types without the need of heavy support). I think that most types have a check for it. Psychic has mega Gardevoir which bypasses subs, Ground has heavy hitters in Excadrill and Grachomp that can either live a hit or outspeed. Even ghost has a shaky check in sash Golurk (curse golurk actually checks gyara behind sub), fire in Rotom-H (possibly scarf) and rock has encore Shuckle. Though I can definitely see where you are going with this.
 

Wanka

a suh
is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributor
Monotype Leader
In regards to flying, Gyra is fine. The thing with gyra on flying is that, you have a tough decision in choosing your mega on flying. Mega Zard Y is an insane wall breaker on flying and can do wonders for flying. If you choose gyrados as your mega, you lose out on mega Zard Y and vise versa. The two megas balance each other out nicely in the sense that you are getting an extremely good offensive presence with both and losing with gyra you kinda lose the insta power zard provides which is a somewhat large drawback to using gyrados on flying. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that since you are losing out on Zard with mega gyra, it makes gyrados on flying not inherently broken.

On the water side of the fence, gyra does wonders for water. Without gyra water would still be pretty good but gyra can take that type to the next level for sure. It doesn't make it too good for me though. I think balance water in a sense kinda needs gyra rather than being too good with gyra on it. Gyrados makes it a really good type and style to use but not overly powerful for the meta.

In a nutshell, it's versatility (resttalk sets, sub dd, dd 3 attacks, reg dd with bounce,) and sweeping capabilities make it an extremely potent mon on water but not overly powerful for the meta.

You lose a key aspect on flying in mega zard Y if you use gyra which balances its affect on the meta for flying which is enough to keep it from being broken.

For those reasons I think gyrados is very good but not broken.
 
In my view MDos would be on MChar X and MAlt level of DD users except for one thing, the lack of "reliable" recovery. The thing with resttalk is you cant really "choose" to attack after recovering from low health, and overall is just worse off than the roost users. Roosting 3 turns in a row heals more than the 3 turns used on a rest, and sleep talking random moves only helps if your really lucky, with pretty much the main advantage being the removal of status.

If MDos could run taunt + recovery + dd + attack then it would maybe reach suspect level, but currently you either forgo sub/taunt and cant stop others from setting up along with you or prevent status, or you forgo resttalk which limits your substitutes and how many times you can come in.
 
In my view MDos would be on MChar X and MAlt level of DD users except for one thing, the lack of "reliable" recovery. The thing with resttalk is you cant really "choose" to attack after recovering from low health, and overall is just worse off than the roost users. Roosting 3 turns in a row heals more than the 3 turns used on a rest, and sleep talking random moves only helps if your really lucky, with pretty much the main advantage being the removal of status.

If MDos could run taunt + recovery + dd + attack then it would maybe reach suspect level, but currently you either forgo sub/taunt and cant stop others from setting up along with you or prevent status, or you forgo resttalk which limits your substitutes and how many times you can come in.
There's also the fact that it's defensive typing isn't great, sure you resist ice, bur that's about it.
 

Physical Tyranitar

formerly Marquis of Blaze
In my view MDos would be on MChar X and MAlt level of DD users except for one thing, the lack of "reliable" recovery. The thing with resttalk is you cant really "choose" to attack after recovering from low health, and overall is just worse off than the roost users. Roosting 3 turns in a row heals more than the 3 turns used on a rest, and sleep talking random moves only helps if your really lucky, with pretty much the main advantage being the removal of status.

If MDos could run taunt + recovery + dd + attack then it would maybe reach suspect level, but currently you either forgo sub/taunt and cant stop others from setting up along with you or prevent status, or you forgo resttalk which limits your substitutes and how many times you can come in.
This is true, but Mega Gyarados's physical movepool is surprisingly shallow. I have seen Dragon Dance Rest Sets, but Rest doesn't count as reliable recovery. It gets Waterfall, Bounce, Crunch, Ice Fang, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Iron Head, Outrage, Stone Edge, Body Slam(lel), and others, but I'd say that half of these aren't competitively viable on Gyarados, and only Waterfall, Ice Fang, Earthquake, Iron Head, Crunch, and Stone Edge are good for Mega Gyarados. Mega Gyarados is a dangerous setup sweeper, but unlike Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X, who have very usable physical movepools, and both are able to generally run more sets than Mega Gyarados, Mega Gyarados doesn't have the moves to hit most premier physical walls such as Mega Venusaur, Skarmory, and Slowbro if Mega Gyarados doesn't have Crunch, so it's sweep is stopped earlier than the other two Flying Megas. Mega Gyarados's typing isn't as good as it's fellow Megas Char and Alt. You could run Taunt to stop Mega Sableye one-on-one but that may be for better or for worse, depending on how weak your team is to Mega Sableye.
Mega Gyarados has STAB Waterfall, which really can put the hurt on the uncommon Rock Teams, but Choice Scarf Terrakion, Cradily, Mega Aggron, and even Mega Diancie have ways of defeating Mega Gyarados. Against Ice, Mega Gyarados can resist Ice, as Stunfisk The Great said, but it will still be worn down.
In my opinion, Mega Gyarados is not worthy of a ban, and although it and Mega Charizard Y are the premier Flying Megas at the moment, Mega Gyarados has some unfortunate factors keeping it from it's ban.
It seems interesting how a pokemon like Gyarados can bring ban-worthy problems to a team. I personally don't find mega Gyarados overpowered but I guess it does meet the criteria of a ban (aka beating 3 or more types without the need of heavy support). I think that most types have a check for it. Psychic has mega Gardevoir which bypasses subs, Ground has heavy hitters in Excadrill and Grachomp that can either live a hit or outspeed. Even ghost has a shaky check in sash Golurk (curse golurk actually checks gyara behind sub), fire in Rotom-H (possibly scarf) and rock has encore Shuckle. Though I can definitely see where you are going with this.
I cannot really think of a type that cannot defeat Mega Gyarados if prepared. Rock has the options I listed above, Psychic has Mega Gallade and Mega Gardevoir. As you said, Garchomp can live a +1 Waterfall and rely on Sash to live Ice Fang, and deal massive damage:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 255-301 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Excadrill cannot switch in, but if Sand is up, Excadrill can outspeed and 2HKO with Earthquake, but it isn't going to live a Waterfall.
For some reason, Hippowdon can live a +1 Waterfall and either Toxic it, damage it, or phaze it out, but if Hippowdon flinches, it's game over. In fact, if Garchomp, Excadrill, and Hippowdon flinch at any point, Mega Gyarados is going to win. There are also options such as Seismitoad and Gastrodon, who can switch into Mega Gyarados using Waterfall but Crunch can deal massive damage to both of them.

Psychic has Mega Gardevoir, who can OHKO with Hyper Voice. Mega Gallade will die 50% of the time to both of Mega Gyarados's main STAB Attacks, Waterfall and Crunch, but if Mega Gallade lives (and doesn't Flinch), it can 2HKO with Mega Gyarados with Drain Punch, which replenishes his health, and on the next turn, Mega Gyarados will die to a Shadow Sneak. Slowbro lives a +1 Crunch and can T-Wave it, or try to burn it with Scald.

With Ghost, we have Mega Sableye. Taunt Mega Gyarados is not the standard Dragon Dance set, so Mega Sableye can burn it, and then laugh off any of it's attacks, no matter how hard Mega Gyarados Dragon Dances. If Taunted, Mega Sableye will die but only if Mega Gyarados is not burned. Gengar can 2HKO with a Life-Orbed Focus Blast, but will die after. Sash Golurk is also something, though if Golurk flinches, it's dead. Mega Sableye is the main answer to Mega Gyarados in Monotype Ghost in my opinion.

In conclusion, many of the answers to Mega Gyarados fear flinching, and they will almost certainly die if they do. Mega Gyarados does indeed ravage these types, but unlike Talonflame, who gave Bug, Grass, and Fighting virtually no chance of winning, Mega Gyarados is more vulnerable than Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria.
 
This is true, but Mega Gyarados's physical movepool is surprisingly shallow. I have seen Dragon Dance Rest Sets, but Rest doesn't count as reliable recovery. It gets Waterfall, Bounce, Crunch, Ice Fang, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Iron Head, Outrage, Stone Edge, Body Slam(lel), and others, but I'd say that half of these aren't competitively viable on Gyarados, and only Waterfall, Ice Fang, Earthquake, Iron Head, Crunch, and Stone Edge are good for Mega Gyarados. Mega Gyarados is a dangerous setup sweeper, but unlike Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X, who have very usable physical movepools, and both are able to generally run more sets than Mega Gyarados, Mega Gyarados doesn't have the moves to hit most premier physical walls such as Mega Venusaur, Skarmory, and Slowbro if Mega Gyarados doesn't have Crunch, so it's sweep is stopped earlier than the other two Flying Megas. Mega Gyarados's typing isn't as good as it's fellow Megas Char and Alt. You could run Taunt to stop Mega Sableye one-on-one but that may be for better or for worse, depending on how weak your team is to Mega Sableye.
Mega Gyarados has STAB Waterfall, which really can put the hurt on the uncommon Rock Teams, but Choice Scarf Terrakion, Cradily, Mega Aggron, and even Mega Diancie have ways of defeating Mega Gyarados. Against Ice, Mega Gyarados can resist Ice, as Stunfisk The Great said, but it will still be worn down.
In my opinion, Mega Gyarados is not worthy of a ban, and although it and Mega Charizard Y are the premier Flying Megas at the moment, Mega Gyarados has some unfortunate factors keeping it from it's ban.

I cannot really think of a type that cannot defeat Mega Gyarados if prepared. Rock has the options I listed above, Psychic has Mega Gallade and Mega Gardevoir. As you said, Garchomp can live a +1 Waterfall and rely on Sash to live Ice Fang, and deal massive damage:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 255-301 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Excadrill cannot switch in, but if Sand is up, Excadrill can outspeed and 2HKO with Earthquake, but it isn't going to live a Waterfall.
For some reason, Hippowdon can live a +1 Waterfall and either Toxic it, damage it, or phaze it out, but if Hippowdon flinches, it's game over. In fact, if Garchomp, Excadrill, and Hippowdon flinch at any point, Mega Gyarados is going to win. There are also options such as Seismitoad and Gastrodon, who can switch into Mega Gyarados using Waterfall but Crunch can deal massive damage to both of them.

Psychic has Mega Gardevoir, who can OHKO with Hyper Voice. Mega Gallade will die 50% of the time to both of Mega Gyarados's main STAB Attacks, Waterfall and Crunch, but if Mega Gallade lives (and doesn't Flinch), it can 2HKO with Mega Gyarados with Drain Punch, which replenishes his health, and on the next turn, Mega Gyarados will die to a Shadow Sneak. Slowbro lives a +1 Crunch and can T-Wave it, or try to burn it with Scald.

With Ghost, we have Mega Sableye. Taunt Mega Gyarados is not the standard Dragon Dance set, so Mega Sableye can burn it, and then laugh off any of it's attacks, no matter how hard Mega Gyarados Dragon Dances. If Taunted, Mega Sableye will die but only if Mega Gyarados is not burned. Gengar can 2HKO with a Life-Orbed Focus Blast, but will die after. Sash Golurk is also something, though if Golurk flinches, it's dead. Mega Sableye is the main answer to Mega Gyarados in Monotype Ghost in my opinion.

In conclusion, many of the answers to Mega Gyarados fear flinching, and they will almost certainly die if they do. Mega Gyarados does indeed ravage these types, but unlike Talonflame, who gave Bug, Grass, and Fighting virtually no chance of winning, Mega Gyarados is more vulnerable than Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria.
I realised you missed a big point while writing all this. Mega Gyarados has access to Mold Breaker which renders Gastrodon, Seismitoad and Cradily's abilities useless! Nothing on ground or rock can switch into a waterfall for free without taking more than 50% after a DD, the reason why Mega gyarados is such a threat to many teams.
 
Mega Gyarados breakdown
Mega Gyarados is a great Mon. But I think The Monotype community is becoming a bit too ban happy. First of Mega Gyarados is very predictable 99% of the time is gonna have DD. Ok the Mega Gyra set that was showcased does not beat Fire or Rock (needs EQ). The main reason is Mega Gyra has to give up Sub making it lose to status which Psychic Ghost and Fire all have Wil-o-Wisp. If Crunch is replaced then Ghost and Psychic don't get swept. Mega Gyra will never be able to Sweep all of those types (it will only beat 3 at max). Also it can run Rest talk which is a very cool set to use Mono. Other than that it is very predictable.
Is Mega Gyarados autowin condition against those types?
No its not even close to an auto win condition vs those types. Here are some easy ways to beat it on "Generic Teams"
Psychic: Burn with Mew- Most mews outspeed Mega Gyarados because of speed investment
Gard- outspeeds before DD and kills with Hyper Voice. Also Trace Intimidate
Mega Gallade- takes a plus 1 Crunch and does massive damage to Regular Gyarados and Kills Mega Gyarados
Vicitni: Forces it to Mega Evolve and hits hard with Scarf Bolt Strike

Ghost- Sableye- utility Wil-o-Wisp set with Foul Play means Mega Gyarados is not problem CM Mega Sableye can still burn it
Also majority of ghost Mons hit it hard besides Jelicent on "Generic Ghost Team"

Rock- If Cradily physically defensive takes it on easily and forces it to Mega Evolve so Giga Drain does lots of damage
Mega Aggron sets up with it and beats it with curse
Mega Diancie- You need Iron Head Skarmory and it beats flying without Gliscor or Iron Head Skarmory (So it can't Set Up).
Terrakion- Scarf Revenge Kills it

Ground- Hippowdon- Sand wears it down plus SR and can force it out and make it mega evolve for powerful EQs
Excadrill- Outspeeds in Sand and hits it Hard (some 50 50's tho if its not mega evolved yet)
Mega Garchomp- Hits it hard with EQ/Stone Edge and lives a plus 1 Waterfall

Fire: Mega Charizard-Y Sun Support makes Gyarados' water attacks be cut in half
Scarfers- Most of them check Mega Gyarados and hit it hard on fire
Basically anything on Team if no EQ

Mega Gyarados is a great Mon in the Monotype Metagame, but it is not close to broken at all. You earn a Mega Gyarados sweep by predicting a Mon to come in. Mega Gyarados doesn't fit the criteria of banning Mon from this Metagame because it doesn't make a Psychic, Ghost, Ground, Fire, Rock users use different Mons just to beat Mega Gyarados. Also Flying has Mega Charizard-Y (equally viable if not better) so it isn't used all the time on flying. On Water there are other options ( Mega Sharpedo and DD Gatr, and Mega Swampert (mostly used on SS) ),but Mega Gyarados is the best one. Also before it Mega Evolves it loses 25% top SR which makes it lose some of its sweeping potential. Mega Gyarados is a great Mon in the Monotype Metagame, but it is not Ban worthy because the types it "beats" actually have multiple ways of beating it.
*Side note replays are not the best way to prove a Pokemon is broken because there are lots of variables in a battle (hax, player skill, etc.)
 
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