Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[TheAce22]

Anyone who uses Mega Diancie in Rock mono and a walrein WITH Frost Breath in an Ice mono aren't going far with those teams. Rock NEEDS Mega Aggron and Choice Specs Walrein....... I'll just let you figure out how bad that is of an option.


Mega Sableye is an auto win against any electric team, Mega Ampharos' base 165 special attack can 2HKO Mega Sableye (and thats the highest special attack stat electric gets), but if even one calm mind is up, a crit is needed to win. Now the other options are hitting it with fairy moves from Dedenne (only electric Pokemon with Play Rough) or Lanturn with dazzling gleam. The argument of don't let it set up doesn't matter here cause alot of the time it uses calm mind with the prankster ability still in use so the first boost can't be stopped.

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Dedenne Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 120-144 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Dazzling Gleam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only way I see Electric managing to beat just Sableye is with Nasty Plot Thundurus, but with Stealth Rock damage Thundurus is 2HKO'd by +1 Shadow Ball, so it would require amazing predicts and luck to get Thundurus set up enough to kill Mega Sableye, if it is even possible. Now thats pretty much 3 types that can't handle one Pokemon, and I'm pretty sure Good Old Smogon Bird got quick banned for doing something like that

Ok let me break down this post because almost everything you say is invalid and I don't understand.

You can either Specs Magnezone, Toxic mega amphy, or calm mind sub Raikou to beat Mega Sableye. It is not at all an auto win also Dedenne is not in the slighest even a bit viable or is Choice Specs Dazzling Gleam Lanturn so I don't know why you would even list those.

Rock doesn't need Mega Aggron huh...? Diance is the most used mega by far sitting at 68.26% while Aggron is at 32.34%. Also can you explain your reasoning why it needs Mega Aggron. Then Walrien with Frost breath is a very popular especially niche for beating Mega Sableye and is on most sets along with surf and Hidden Power Fire to try and deal with Mega Scizor.

Before you post things like this look through http://monotypeps.weebly.com/sprite-gallery.html to actually see the usage of the certain Pokemon. Also if you had been looking through the thread there was a huge discussion about Electric and Mega Sableye and multiple lists showing how it could be beaten, I'm just relisting.

 

[Dragon Knight]

Ok let me break down this post because almost everything you say is invalid and I don't understand.

You can either Specs Magnezone, Toxic mega amphy, or calm mind sub Raikou to beat Mega Sableye. It is not at all an auto win also Dedenne is not in the slighest even a bit viable or is Choice Specs Dazzling Gleam Lanturn so I don't know why you would even list those.

Rock doesn't need Mega Aggron huh...? Diance is the most used mega by far sitting at 68.26% while Aggron is at 32.34%. Also can you explain your reasoning why it needs Mega Aggron. Then Walrien with Frost breath is a very popular especially niche for beating Mega Sableye and is on most sets along with surf and Hidden Power Fire to try and deal with Mega Scizor.

Before you post things like this look through http://monotypeps.weebly.com/sprite-gallery.html to actually see the usage of the certain Pokemon. Also if you had been looking through the thread there was a huge discussion about Electric and Mega Sableye and multiple lists showing how it could be beaten, I'm just relisting.

Rock needs Mega Aggron because it is their best check to Ground and Fighting Monos, since most Pokemon in those types are physcially based, Filter Mega Aggron is by far the superior mega 'in terms of beating their weaknesses' I'll rephrase it like that because that is true. Even with Mega Diancie against Fighting, I still believe that Aggron is a better fit because most fighting teams I've seen only have Keldeo as the special attacker leading to them getting walled easily. Aggron also stops you getting swept from Scizor in Bug mono, which in my eyes is much more important than beating maybe 2 Pokemon with Diancie and then just losing, but hey, opinions are opinions.

I'll admit I haven't seen much about Ice because it is such a poor type, so I'll happily take back what I said there

As with the electric stats, I used Lanturn and Dedenne simply because they are the only two electric pokemon that get fairy moves, I should have stated that I knew they weren't viable. And Toxic Mega Ampharos, while its an okay check, I would argue that his movepool needs different moves to toxic, simply because in electric teams they need support elsewhere. Running a move simply to check one Pokemon has been the reason some have been banned before, maybe not in this tier but in other tiers.

Also sorry if it looks like I'm talking in a harsh tone so to say, but this is how I normally type and I'm not trying to undermine anyone here or their opinions, I'm simply stating mine and why I think Mega Sableye should be banned in this current meta of Monotype

 

[TheAce22]

Rock needs Mega Aggron because it is their best check to Ground and Fighting Monos, since most Pokemon in those types are physcially based, Filter Mega Aggron is by far the superior mega 'in terms of beating their weaknesses' I'll rephrase it like that because that is true. Even with Mega Diancie against Fighting, I still believe that Aggron is a better fit because most fighting teams I've seen only have Keldeo as the special attacker leading to them getting walled easily. Aggron also stops you getting swept from Scizor in Bug mono, which in my eyes is much more important than beating maybe 2 Pokemon with Diancie and then just losing, but hey, opinions are opinions.

I'll admit I haven't seen much about Ice because it is such a poor type, so I'll happily take back what I said there

As with the electric stats, I used Lanturn and Dedenne simply because they are the only two electric pokemon that get fairy moves, I should have stated that I knew they weren't viable. And Toxic Mega Ampharos, while its an okay check, I would argue that his movepool needs different moves to toxic, simply because in electric teams they need support elsewhere. Running a move simply to check one Pokemon has been the reason some have been banned before, maybe not in this tier but in other tiers.

Also sorry if it looks like I'm talking in a harsh tone so to say, but this is how I normally type and I'm not trying to undermine anyone here or their opinions, I'm simply stating mine and why I think Mega Sableye should be banned in this current meta of Monotype

Mega Aggron does absoutely nothing at all vs Ground, maybe it can get off an Earthquake on Excadrill but then you can just predict and switch to Landorus and kill it. Seismitoad also checks it along with Hippowdown unless your running a curse set in which case you can either whirlwind it out or kill it with Landorus.

Mega Aggron is a bulky Pokemon with filter but that doesn't mean it does anything at all against Fighting. You can bring out Keldeo when it comes out and beat it easily or because it's Fighting continously get off chip damage by applying constant offensive pressure against it. Mega Diancie is much much better against Fighting because of its speed tier and the fact it OHKOes basically every Fighting mon with Moonblast excluding Cobalion and Infernape(earth power for nape).

If your having trouble against scizor then you can use Rhyperior with Weakness Policy and Fire Punch in which as long as you switch out as soon as it comes out and it can only get one Swords Dance up you can kill it.

 

[vlmufa]

It's good to know this isn't going to lead to another one of those personal fights. Anyway, many rock teams usually run Diancie + Rhyperior. Rhyperior is a good enough check to scizor as it can easily take a Bullet Punch (even +2 iirc) and ohko back with a Weakness Policy Fire Punch. My opinion is that Aggron is just as good as Diancie but I really don't think it beats Diancie on the mega slot. They usually boast different roles in the team. Now if you say that Aggron > Rhyperior I can easily understand that but often it's not worth to lose Diancie's offensive pressure (also lets not forget the great team synergy Magic Guard gives).

On another note, pretty much most of the monotypes can beat Mega Sableye, even if it takes the sacrifice of a move on Mega Ampharos' movepool. Even if we say electric can't beat it, thats 1/18 monotypes. With that type of thinking, I could nominate Scizorite for a ban because Mega Scizor beats fairy ice and rock.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Anyone who uses Mega Diancie in Rock mono and a walrein WITH Frost Breath in an Ice mono aren't going far with those teams. Rock NEEDS Mega Aggron and Choice Specs Walrein....... I'll just let you figure out how bad that is of an option.


Mega Sableye is an auto win against any electric team, Mega Ampharos' base 165 special attack can 2HKO Mega Sableye (and thats the highest special attack stat electric gets), but if even one calm mind is up, a crit is needed to win. Now the other options are hitting it with fairy moves from Dedenne (only electric Pokemon with Play Rough) or Lanturn with dazzling gleam. The argument of don't let it set up doesn't matter here cause alot of the time it uses calm mind with the prankster ability still in use so the first boost can't be stopped.

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Dedenne Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 120-144 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Dazzling Gleam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only way I see Electric managing to beat just Sableye is with Nasty Plot Thundurus, but with Stealth Rock damage Thundurus is 2HKO'd by +1 Shadow Ball, so it would require amazing predicts and luck to get Thundurus set up enough to kill Mega Sableye, if it is even possible. Now thats pretty much 3 types that can't handle one Pokemon, and I'm pretty sure Good Old Smogon Bird got quick banned for doing something like that

Sorry to come in on this but Talonflame is on a strictly different level than Mega Sableye is, which is why it got quick banned. Talonflame has the ability to deal with Grass-, Ice-, Bug-, Fighting-, and Steel-types. That's 5 compared to 3. It doesn't just deal with those Monotypes, but also causes trouble to many other types in the game. Also with Gale Wings, Talonflame also causes a lot of trouble for other Monotype teams, giving it much needed KOs or puncture holes through a team with Choice Band. With the use of Swords Dance you can predict Sucker Punches and switches which will give a free turn to set up. Also with Will-O-Wisp, it can help provide support for its fellow teammates. With the Speed, power, support, and priority it carries, Talonflame was much harder to deal with than Mega Sableye and I can't tell how much of a pain it is.

I don't necessarily see why you should run Mega Aggron over Mega Diancie. Mega Diancie is literally a nice counter to Mega Sableye because it resists its Dark-type STAB moves. Also its Fairy typing and access to Moonblast and Calm Mind gives Mega Diancie the upper hand. All Mega Sableye can do is simply Calm Mind in hopes of defeating Mega Diancie with one hit from its Dark-type moves. Mega Sableye would even need to set up multiple Calm Minds to prepare itself for Mega Diancie. Also, losing out on Prankster and gaining Magic Bounce hurts it against Mega Diancie. All the Speed loss it gets. Will-O-Wisp doesn't affect Mega Diancie because of Magic Bounce. Mega Aggron on the other hand can't do anything to Mega Sableye other than keep it from setting up Calm Mind with Dragon Tail. Besides, Mega Aggron lacks recovery options and Mega Sableye can just simply burn it. Who even uses Dedenne? As far as I know Dedenne still can't do crap to Mega Sableye, as it still has trouble even 3HKOing it with STAB Play Rough. Mega Sableye can also burn it with WoW and Recover from there. Dazzling Gleam is a much more prominent option because it actually 2HKOes Mega Sableye or 3HKOes it if it didn't set up with Calm Mind already. Also Dedenne is pretty much an irrelevant mon because its poor bulk just gives you a wasted slot on your Electric team.

I wouldn't forget about Choice Specs Thunderbolt Magnezone because at the same time Mega Sableye will also being asking for a crit and can't properly set up without it being gone. Luxray is also considered a nice check because of Guts and it can carry Choice Band too. This is given the fact that we're 6v6 theorymoning and that Mega Sableye isn't at full HP either. Sub + Calm Mind Raikou is also considered a nice check to Mega Sableye too.

Rock needs Mega Aggron because it is their best check to Ground and Fighting Monos, since most Pokemon in those types are physcially based, Filter Mega Aggron is by far the superior mega 'in terms of beating their weaknesses' I'll rephrase it like that because that is true. Even with Mega Diancie against Fighting, I still believe that Aggron is a better fit because most fighting teams I've seen only have Keldeo as the special attacker leading to them getting walled easily. Aggron also stops you getting swept from Scizor in Bug mono, which in my eyes is much more important than beating maybe 2 Pokemon with Diancie and then just losing, but hey, opinions are opinions.

I'll admit I haven't seen much about Ice because it is such a poor type, so I'll happily take back what I said there

As with the electric stats, I used Lanturn and Dedenne simply because they are the only two electric pokemon that get fairy moves, I should have stated that I knew they weren't viable. And Toxic Mega Ampharos, while its an okay check, I would argue that his movepool needs different moves to toxic, simply because in electric teams they need support elsewhere. Running a move simply to check one Pokemon has been the reason some have been banned before, maybe not in this tier but in other tiers.

Also sorry if it looks like I'm talking in a harsh tone so to say, but this is how I normally type and I'm not trying to undermine anyone here or their opinions, I'm simply stating mine and why I think Mega Sableye should be banned in this current meta of Monotype

Mega Diancie can help deal with Fighting-types too. Even though it does need to watch out for Calm Mind Keldeo, Endeavor Infernape, (given that you don't have any hazards set up on the opponent's side of the field yet), Choice Scarf Terrakion Iron Head along with Cobalion. Mega Aeroactyl can as well being part flying and having excellent Speed making it a check to the Mono. Also I don't see how Mega Aggron is Rock's best check to Ground because Life Orb Landorus can just simply OHKO Mega Aggron even with the Special Defense invested along with the ability Filter. Nidoking would also prove to be an issue as well. Despite Mega Aggron having excellent defensive bulk, it'll still have problems with Pokemon such as Gastrodon, Landorus, Nidoking, and Seismitoad. Gastrodon and Seismitoad running Scald and burning Mega Aggron. So I wouldn't disregard these Pokemon either. Also Mega Aggron's Thunder Wave support makes it quite useless against this mono. In my opinion, Rock's best bet in beating Ground-types is Omastar because of Shell Smash. Also I saw that Omastar runs Hidden Power Grass pretty often as well.

Toxic on Mega Amphy is pretty much needed to get more status off. Electric has too many Special Attackers which Mega Sableye can set up on. Also it helps in getting rid of threats too besides it. I run Toxic on Mega Amphy because in a way it helps forces switches. What makes Mega Amphy so good is because of its bulk, Dragon / Electric typing, Special Attack, Mold Breaker, which helps to bypass many abilities such as Skarmory's Sturdy, Magic Bounce Pokemon, and support moves such as Heal Bell. I would like to see what you think other support should lie elsewhere. We're not really talking about one move to run that a Pokemon is still banned. We're talking about ways that Mega Sableye can be checked or countered by.

Also you might want to please expand on your reasoning as to why Mega Sableye should be banned besides Electric having only Nasty Plot Life Orb Thundurus to check it.

 

[Thimo]

Anyone who uses Mega Diancie in Rock mono and a walrein WITH Frost Breath in an Ice mono aren't going far with those teams. Rock NEEDS Mega Aggron and Choice Specs Walrein....... I'll just let you figure out how bad that is of an option.


Mega Sableye is an auto win against any electric team, Mega Ampharos' base 165 special attack can 2HKO Mega Sableye (and thats the highest special attack stat electric gets), but if even one calm mind is up, a crit is needed to win. Now the other options are hitting it with fairy moves from Dedenne (only electric Pokemon with Play Rough) or Lanturn with dazzling gleam. The argument of don't let it set up doesn't matter here cause alot of the time it uses calm mind with the prankster ability still in use so the first boost can't be stopped.

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Dedenne Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 120-144 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Dazzling Gleam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only way I see Electric managing to beat just Sableye is with Nasty Plot Thundurus, but with Stealth Rock damage Thundurus is 2HKO'd by +1 Shadow Ball, so it would require amazing predicts and luck to get Thundurus set up enough to kill Mega Sableye, if it is even possible. Now thats pretty much 3 types that can't handle one Pokemon, and I'm pretty sure Good Old Smogon Bird got quick banned for doing something like that

You aren't going far either with your Dazzling Gleam Lanturn and Dedenne, then Mega Ampharos can Toxic Mega Sableye and I'm pretty sure that will hurt anything Dark has.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Anyone who uses Mega Diancie in Rock mono and a walrein WITH Frost Breath in an Ice mono aren't going far with those teams. Rock NEEDS Mega Aggron and Choice Specs Walrein....... I'll just let you figure out how bad that is of an option.


Mega Sableye is an auto win against any electric team, Mega Ampharos' base 165 special attack can 2HKO Mega Sableye (and thats the highest special attack stat electric gets), but if even one calm mind is up, a crit is needed to win. Now the other options are hitting it with fairy moves from Dedenne (only electric Pokemon with Play Rough) or Lanturn with dazzling gleam. The argument of don't let it set up doesn't matter here cause alot of the time it uses calm mind with the prankster ability still in use so the first boost can't be stopped.

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Dedenne Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 120-144 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Dazzling Gleam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only way I see Electric managing to beat just Sableye is with Nasty Plot Thundurus, but with Stealth Rock damage Thundurus is 2HKO'd by +1 Shadow Ball, so it would require amazing predicts and luck to get Thundurus set up enough to kill Mega Sableye, if it is even possible. Now thats pretty much 3 types that can't handle one Pokemon, and I'm pretty sure Good Old Smogon Bird got quick banned for doing something like that

Mega Aggron isn't always used on Monotype Rock, but it is the best answer to Scizor- and all Steel Types at that- on Monotype Rock. But who even uses Choice Specs Lanturn and Dedenne anyway. Mold Breaker Toxic could work I guess.

 

[scpinion]

Sablenite Voter ID thread is up. Only post once you've achieved reqs!

you can pm TLM ".suspect id" to get the link from PS!

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-suspect-voter-id-thread-sablenite.3555272/

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I have mixed feelings about mega sableye, I have never really been too troubled by it since I usually don't use types that struggle too hard against it and I'm not sure if I am the best source but w/e.

One thing I will say though is that the presence mega sableye has isn't exactly limited to when it's in battle so you can't make the entire argument based on the fact that just about every type has a check for it, if there weren't enough answers to mega sab I believe that this suspect would've began long ago. Throughout the battle MSab is still able to provide pressure on the opponent with it's amazing ability in Magic Bounce along with amazing bulk that in combination let it not only come in safely in the event that you were unsure if the opponent was going to use stealth rocks, but also gives it fantastic opportunities to get calm mind down. Right now mega sableye is able to be used by one of the most prevalent types in the metagame which has one of the best monocores in the game along with pokemon such as Hoopa-U which I get the feeling will be leaving us in the upcoming months. Not only this but although it has become standard for every team to have a strong msab counter, I seriously doubt that a large portion of these pokemon would have been considered for the type when they put it on teambuilder. Toxic ampharos? Choice specs Walrein? Like if I was honest here I wouldn't have seen a specs walrein pass off as nothing more than a lure if msab wasn't a thing. Even now a large portion of players struggle against it, the only thing that I've seen steel players be able to do is try to get it down on health and then send in lum bisharp which can often get burned in the end since iron head does like 30% when unboosted. Another argument that I know has been expressed alot by other players (but I shall bring up again nonetheless) is the fact that both sides of the field have a good 5 pokes waiting and ready to support. Although this is true for both sides and I can't make too big of an argument that will support the msab ban I would like to point out the fact that dark has some of the best support in the meta. With pokemon such as mandibuzz, tyranitar, and the occasional umbreon all able to provide amazing defensive support with hazards, defog, and a cleric along with the fact that they are able to counter almost the entire meta with an exception toward offensive fairies and a few extremely strong wallbreakers. Not only this but with pokemon such as crawdaunt and hoopa-u I feel that when it comes down to it, wearing down the other team will be nowhere near difficult. People have been complaining about this troll the day the first played it and I feel that since people are complaining about it over a year later then that's clearly not a good sign.

Overall the major points I see for why it should be banned would be how it overcentralized the meta, the insane pressure it can put down when it's both on and off the field, the amazing support it, and the fact that even now it's a standing threat in the meta.

The reason why this was done for the most part from the point of view of mono dark is that this suspect is either ban from both types or no ban at all & if I feel it is clearly unhealthy on 1 type it shouldn't stay because of the other type.

 

[Arash]

for all the people saying specs walrein came about specifically for mega-sableye, I personally have seen it from even before ORAS (and thus, before mega-sableye) as one of ice's only checks to mega-scizor (HP fire is the key move here). just fyi

in regards to mega-sableye and the team support argument for its ban, i'm going to reiterate what I said earlier in this thread: if mega-sableye is banned mainly due to its "amazing" team support making it too hard to counter, it will be the beginning of the end for monotype. There are many counters being brought up that are discounted because "mega-sableye can just switch".

This is akin to saying "Scizor doesn't counter Aerodactyl because hey, Aerodactyl can just switch to Skarmory which beats Scizor 1v1. Nice counter bro."

Secondly, although it is true that team support does boost mega-sableye's effectiveness in the metagame, every pokemon is only as good as its team support allows. Consider the following arugment:

"Mega-Tyranitar by itself may not be broken, but it has such good team support with Sableye/Bisharp/Mandibuzz/Umbreon/Crawdaunt that it pushes this pokemon over the edge and makes it un-counterable when factoring in its 5 other teammates. Therefore, Mega-Tyranitar needs to be suspected"

Sounds silly? These are the kind of arguments I am reading, and they seem silly to me..

EDIT: to the poster earlier who dismissed mega-diancie and specs walrein as gimmicks while seriously suggesting dazzling gleam lanturn and dedenne on a mono-electric team, i invite you to play more monotype games and really base your opinion on empirical evidence instead of theorymon

 

[TheWyvernKing]

for all the people saying specs walrein came about specifically for mega-sableye, I personally have seen it from even before ORAS (and thus, before mega-sableye) as one of ice's only checks to mega-scizor (HP fire is the key move here). just fyi

in regards to mega-sableye and the team support argument for its ban, i'm going to reiterate what I said earlier in this thread: if mega-sableye is banned mainly due to its "amazing" team support making it too hard to counter, it will be the beginning of the end for monotype. There are many counters being brought up that are discounted because "mega-sableye can just switch".

This is akin to saying "Scizor doesn't counter Aerodactyl because hey, Aerodactyl can just switch to Skarmory which beats Scizor 1v1. Nice counter bro."

Secondly, although it is true that team support does boost mega-sableye's effectiveness in the metagame, every pokemon is only as good as its team support allows. Consider the following arugment:

"Mega-Tyranitar by itself may not be broken, but it has such good team support with Sableye/Bisharp/Mandibuzz/Umbreon/Crawdaunt that it pushes this pokemon over the edge and makes it un-counterable when factoring in its 5 other teammates. Therefore, Mega-Tyranitar needs to be suspected"

Sounds silly? These are the kind of arguments I am reading, and they seem silly to me..

EDIT: to the poster earlier who dismissed mega-diancie and specs walrein as gimmicks while seriously suggesting dazzling gleam lanturn and dedenne on a mono-electric team, i invite you to play more monotype games and really base your opinion on empirical evidence instead of theorymon

The argument that I proposed was not that it should be banned due to it's amazing team support and I agree that this is an insane idea to propose in the first place, in fact I started off with the fact that Mega Sableye has overcentralized much of the common metagame. On your point that specs walrein was originally a thing I must disagree on just about every account, In June of 2015 which is longgg after mega sableye was introduced Walrein had a pitiful 9% usage with only 20% of the common sets being specs and even less than 20% of those had frost breath. Your point was basically saying that you saw a pokemon use a set maybe 1 time on the ladder and was all like "hey! this kid didn't copy paste! What a miracle @_##__#" and all of a sudden that same set becomes top babe 5 years later when it finally has a reason to be used and because of that 1 time it is not overcentralizing because it already existed. Yes I may have exaggerated a hell of a load but the fact that the common msab counter had 1.3% usage on ice a good 7 months after msab was revealed means that nobody knew the set, then 3 months later it gets 10X more usage. You clearly did not get the point I was trying to make and could not even back up what you were saying about Walrein since the set was basically nonexistant.

What I was saying is that Mega Sableye has managed to pose an insane threat on our metagame, sets like lum Bisharp and Specs Walrein may not have been standard but have became standard due to Mega Sableye. Although a large portion of my post directed the fact that Mega Sableye had insanely good support that was not what I was trying to get off. I've seen many ghost players pull off the same results and in the end people rage, blackmail the creator of msab, and in the end they will feel that it is not entirely healthy but many may not propose it because ghost is in dire need of a knock off counter and ultimately rely on sableye for much more support than they can offer it.

If your comment was not directed toward me that's a-ok and if it was I'm sorry for the misconception that sableye needed the support. My main ideas in my original post was that it greatly overcentralized the metagame and had a bad overall presence with it's ability to not only destroy unprepared teams but also offer immense pressure throughout the game. The team support merely makes it all the more worse since it can be devastating to face on types such as ghost which cannot offer much, and on dark it becomes all the harder with their ability to reliably take on msab's counters and be able to provide immense pressure without the need of mega sableye itself

 

[Arash]

post above was not directed specifically at you, but rather that argument which has been posited several times as a pro-ban argument.

Also, while specs walrein wasn't a very common thing, it is one of the best ice had to offer against mega-scizor even pre-ORAS (best being rotom-F). Granted, specs walrein probably didn't run frost breath back then, since ice beam was the same power with a freeze chance), but the fact is that the concept wasn't completely a reaction to mega-sableye's popularity.

In response to your points, I believe that mega-sableye is a force to prepare for in teambuilding, but not particularly overcentralizing. Heatran, for instance, will destroy unprepared grass/bug/ice teams, and mega Gyarados will also destroy monoteams that don't prepare for it. The fact that teams lose to these Pokemon does not mean that the Pokemon themselves are broken, but rather that the opponent did not adequately prepare for commonly seen threats. These Pokemon also exert pressures on the opponent (don't allow mega-Gyara a free turn to set up, etc.), and it is your responsibility to either prepare for all the common threats you can face, or prepare to lose to them every time.

 

[Void Trent]

I have yet to see anyone mention this. Mega sableye helps the hazard control, but it also helps with knock off. We all know that knock off does 1.5x damage if holding a item, and by taking away mega sabelye, close loses its option to switch it and not fear losing a precious lefties, scarf,life orb, etc.. and also loses its only poke that does not have to deal with the extra 1.5x dmg. True you can send in sableye and it can take the dmg but that also depends on what poke you send it into. if its lando-t. Yea, you'll be fine, but if its bisharp, thats 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) . and after that its just mind games. do i use willo and hope it doesnt miss or they don't have umbreon or do i recover and hope that bisharp doesn't set up. Think about this before thinking about banning mega sableye.

 

[Omega-Xis]

I have yet to see anyone mention this. Mega sableye helps the hazard control, but it also helps with knock off. We all know that knock off does 1.5x damage if holding a item, and by taking away mega sabelye, close loses its option to switch it and not fear losing a precious lefties, scarf,life orb, etc.. and also loses its only poke that does not have to deal with the extra 1.5x dmg. True you can send in sableye and it can take the dmg but that also depends on what poke you send it into. if its lando-t. Yea, you'll be fine, but if its bisharp, thats 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) . and after that its just mind games. do i use willo and hope it doesnt miss or they don't have umbreon or do i recover and hope that bisharp doesn't set up. Think about this before thinking about banning mega sableye.

There's nothing saying you have to run Lefties on a standard Sableye.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 157-187 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(If I ran Jolly like your calc, it would be a good deal less.) Anyways if Mega Sab were to be banned you could merely run no item Sableye and then you definitely take one Knock Off from Sharp (if it SDs you'll burn anyways), Will-o, and then you can Recover back up. So to your argument, Ghost wouldn't have to worry about "losing precious Lefties."

 

[Ronman5]

Honestly, is Mega Sab even broken? People might assume this is a bias post because some view me as a dark user but this is an honest post. Every single type has a way of beating Mega Sab and Sab's support as long as you play right.

some ways to beat Mega Sableye

Just to clarify, these are just some examples of things that beat it. I understand that having to run a specific check to a mon makes it broken so these are just some ideas.
Water: Keldeo(Sub CM or Specs), Azumarill, scald burn cuz scald is the 2nd best move in the game!!
Grass: Serperior, BD Naught, SD Breloom
Fighting: Keldeo, Set up Nape, SD Loom, Guts Heracross
Flying: Togekiss, Zard Y, Banded Dnite, SD Gliscor, and lots more.
Rock: Diancie and Mega Aggron(curse)
Ground: Scald burn then any banded mon
Steel: Tran lava plume burn, SD Bisharp, Jirachi iron head spam
Ice: This one is stuff but banded mons? Mamo, KyuB, dunno.
Fire: Can't get burned!!
Dark&Ghost: Calm Mind wars!! Or, if you're not CM, just lose or try to flinch.
Psychic: Mega Garde, Tini, Rachi after weakened, Skill Swap Gallade(<- kek)
Fairy: Lol
Poison: This one is stuff. Scald burn then spam attacks?
Electric: Para everything.
Normal: Mega Lop, Banded diggersby with cleric support.
Dragon: Banded outrage spam lol!

I feel people will just attempt to ban it because they lost vs it one time and got salty. Remember, just because it beats you once doesn't make it broken!! xd. I'd love it if someone proved me wrong

I think this quote sums it up but you forgot bug type
which the main things that stop mega sab is Volcarona, Pinsir mega (if you don't get it burned) and scizor (after megaing) since scizor (note this is a soft check) and pinsir do major damage and in pinsirs case it 2hkos after burn, volc is the best however since QD spam rekts sab unless it gets a lucky crit

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Ghost still struggles with dark even with mega sab. There are still no switchins to hoopa and ghost still has major issues with lum berry bisharp. You can't try and tell me that a type is taking a massive hit by saying "oh it's gunna lose even more to the type it already loses to." That kinda logic is really stupid.

regular sableye is still good lmao. The hazard control will definitely be an issue like stun said but saying that "oh it auto loses to dark now" when it pretty much always lost to dark anyways makes me question your logic.

First of all, Ghost does not auto-lose to Dark. Yes, it will usually lose, but it can still give it a run for it's money if it's a good team. A Bisharp thinking that Gengar will use Focus Blast so it will use Sucker Punch, and it will get burned. The next turn, when the Lum Berry kicked in, Bisharp will probably take it out, but that doesn't completely matter, because most Ghost Pokemon can learn Will'O'Wisp. Gengar could even use Substitute to ensure that Bisharp will die to Sucker Punch.
Hoopa-Unbound has to worry about Aegislash, as it can live a Hyperspace Fury in certain conditions. Weakness Policy, then Sacred Sword.

Just because something sucks against something, that does not mean that you have to make it worse. And you're calling my logic really stupid.

 

[Wanka]

First of all, Ghost does not auto-lose to Dark. Yes, it will usually lose, but it can still give it a run for it's money if it's a good team. A Bisharp thinking that Gengar will use Focus Blast so it will use Sucker Punch, and it will get burned. The next turn, when the Lum Berry kicked in, Bisharp will probably take it out, but that doesn't completely matter, because most Ghost Pokemon can learn Will'O'Wisp. Gengar could even use Substitute to ensure that Bisharp will die to Sucker Punch.
Hoopa-Unbound has to worry about Aegislash, as it can live a Hyperspace Fury in certain conditions. Weakness Policy, then Sacred Sword.

You literally quoted the same post I had twice. I highly suggest you stop because ur actually really pissing me off and its making me have to come on this thread and read whatever crap ur trying to prove me wrong about. We've been through this discussion multiple times in the mono room and via pms so it's making me think you're just quoting me on here just t annoy the crap out of me.

Like I said in the mono room a few days ago, I clearly stated that ghost will most likely lose to dark due to its 75% win rate against it. That post isn't the best testimate of that because I make it sound like ghost auto loses but I explained a few days ago that it doesn't.


All of those scenarios you posted above are 50/50's as well so you cant hold them against either type. But yes ghost does have a chance, we all know that.

Now please, stop quoting me about useless shit that I've explained countless amounts of times, it's really getting me annoyed.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

You literally quoted the same post I had twice. I highly suggest you stop because ur actually really pissing me off and its making me have to come on this thread and read whatever crap ur trying to prove me wrong about. We've been through this discussion multiple times in the mono room and via pms so it's making me think you're just quoting me on here just t annoy the crap out of me.

Like I said in the mono room a few days ago, I clearly stated that ghost will most likely lose to dark due to its 75% win rate against it. That post isn't the best testimate of that because I make it sound like ghost auto loses but I explained a few days ago that it doesn't.


All of those scenarios you posted above are 50/50's as well so you cant hold them against either type. But yes ghost does have a chance, we all know that.

Now please, stop quoting me about useless shit that I've explained countless amounts of times, it's really getting me annoyed.

Wow, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bedroom today lol. You said that Ghost auto-loses against Dark anyway, so you're contradicting yourself, no matter the explanation. In the Mono Room, you were just as aggresive as this, same with PMs. I specifically remember that you did not explain anything about some "testimate" or that it doesn't. You cursed at me, but that's under the carpet :)

To be honest, I'm not sure how you being annoyed is going to affect or harm me in any way, but there's no need to fight. Everybody has their own perspective. Everybody has their opinions, and there is no point in trying to conflict over silly matter. So please. There's no need to fight over opinions. Let's just respect each other's opinions and move on :D

On another note, Mega Sableye being banned from Ghost is a terrible idea in my opinion, but I can kind of understand the logic about that. Now that COIL has been implemented, I'm sure that more and more voters will appear to determine the fate of Mega Sableye.

 

[Wanka]

scpinion can you please get him off my back please before I do something I really shouldn't do

 

[ArVaDa-]

The only gripe I have about sableye (which has been mentioned quite a bit) is that, in general, if your stealth rocker cannot break through sableye-m, then you're not getting rocks until it dies. on the other hand, the owner of sableye is allowed to have hazards. Ghost and dark are both weak to particular types and moves, but in neutral matches sableye really is an mvp just because of its ability.

 

[Isza]

It's only a matter of time before the voters have their say on if Mega Sableye is broken or not.

In the meantime the great builders of WoA will find a 100% fool proof solution to this Magic Bounce cancer.

~Your welcome

 

[Kevham]

IT'S YOU'RE NOT YOUR

Are we seriously resorting to petty grammar correcting?

Anyways, on Mega Sab; It's a Nuisance. Plain and Simple. It'll dick over your Setters until it's dealt with. It's not too brutally OP, as most types have fairly common checks to it. I'm not a master by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't feel it's ban-worthy. Ghost's meta has almost evolved to the point where if you don't use Mega Sableye and Aegislash, you're utterly screwing yourself. If Mega Sab was banned, you can almost bet Ghost's usage would drop like crazy. Considering almost 90% of ghost teams have Sableye and about 90% of those Sableyes are megas.

I know little to nothing about M-sab on dark, so i'll leave it at that.

 

[Redenstien]

Reason to ban: Mega Sableye is annoying, and very hard to beat with certain types.

Reason to leave: The ban arguments can be applied to literally any strong mega.

The types that suffer the most from Mega Sableye are ice and electric, which don't utilize much usage anyway and are outclassed by almost every other type.

 

[Arash]

The only gripe I have about sableye (which has been mentioned quite a bit) is that, in general, if your stealth rocker cannot break through sableye-m, then you're not getting rocks until it dies. on the other hand, the owner of sableye is allowed to have hazards. Ghost and dark are both weak to particular types and moves, but in neutral matches sableye really is an mvp just because of its ability.

I have seen this argument a bunch too, and frankly this is a poor argument to get mega-sableye banned. If my Stealth Rock user was unable to deal with Espeon/Xatu/Mega-Absol/Mega-Diancie, then again I am not getting rocks until it dies. This sounds like a problem with Magic Bounce (the ability).

The owner of Mega-Sableye is no more entitled to have hazards because of Mega-Sableye. They still have to lay the hazards (Mega-Sableye cannot lay any of its own) and unless they haven't mega-evolved and are packing taunt, Mega-Sableye can't really stop you from using Defog since it's slow. Further, Mega-Sableye needs to mega-evolve first before it can bounce back hazards. If I lead with my SR setter and you lead with something other than Sableye (with the intent to mega-evolve right away), you cannot switch in Sableye hoping to prevent me from laying hazards because you won't have Magic Bounce yet.

It is true that Magic Bounce is an excellent ability, and that Mega-Sableye is the hardest to kill out of all magic bouncers. But this alone is not enough IMO to get it banned.

To put it another way, if I have a Mega-Scizor w/ SD/roost/bug bite/bullet punch, and you have a Heatran, I'm unable to set up or even really use Scizor until Heatran is dealt with. Is this because Heatran is OP and needs banning, or is it an indication that I need to plan on facing Heatrans when building my team?

 

[lax]

It's only a matter of time before the voters have their say on if Mega Sableye is broken or not.

In the meantime the great builders of WoA will find a 100% fool proof solution to this Magic Bounce cancer.

~Your welcome

Yeah, no WoA only builds for WoA.
;)


Annoying and hard to beat is too weak of an argument to ban any mon. Electric and ice can beat it though because electric has access to the best Status in the game, para. Ice is able to play around it but the point is it's difficult, not impossible to beat it.