Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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Wow, 1/2 a percent? That's a shame. Split decisions like this are always unencouraging on how wanted/neccessary the ban really was.


Edit: 23 to 15. Okay that isn't bad.
That's the advantage of setting a 60% threshold. If it gets banned, for every 2 people who opposed the change there were at least 3 who supported it. It's the 50% threshold marginal decisions that really have a tendency to cause division (*cough*Brexit*cough*).
 
Friendly reminder about something I discussed in the mega sableye thread:

scpinion said:
This retest is happening for two reasons:

1) There were concerns that many suspect voters used "if we ban this, Ghost will suck" as the primary reasoning for choosing not to ban Sablenite. That reasoning is antithetical to the Monotype tiering philosophy, which was still very new at the time (and people had concerns over whether it was a good idea).
If this is a valid reason for a retest, then im also gonna request a retest on Hoopa-U as soon as possible seeing like many of the reasons given in the suspect test were "if we ban Hoopa-U, Dark will suffer", even if many people (almost all?) considered Hoopa-U overpowered/broken on psychic. Also the exact half of the monotype community considered it a problem at the time, so thats another reason for a revision too.

Also, me like Argus losed a bit of faith on monotype with the last tier decisions (aegislash and hoopa-u outcome mostly) so I hope u take this idea in consideration. If you already had this retest in mind then dont mind this post.


About the last part, Scpinion answered me later saying the council is discussing hoopa as well, so thats good news. Just putting this like food for thought.
 
Few of my thoughts:

I am very pleased with this result and it feels good to see Mega-Sableye finally gone. I think Dark will be just fine without it and stay around the same usage that it has had before. I see Mega-Sharpedo as the new go to Mega because how well it deals with Psychic, although Mega-Tyranitar and Mega-Houndoom both look viable options.
Psychic will probably go a down just a little since Dark has become a huge threat for psychic again with the other Mega options. Someone mentioned that Psychic could switch back to Mega-Medicham now that Mega-Sableye is banned. As much as i would love to see other Megas used in psychic more i doubt that this will happen. Mega-Gardevoir deals better with Flying, Water, Dark and even against other Psychic teams.

What goes for the lower types, its hard to say. A lot of them become a lot more viable now since they aren’t forced to use really awful sets just to check Mega-Sableye. I think over time types like Poison will rise in usage but don’t expect a instant change. Ghost is still usable but pretty awful not gonna lie (it was pretty awful in the first place). It will have to wait for Sun&Moon to get something that will make better.

Friendly reminder about something I discussed in the mega sableye thread:



If this is a valid reason for a retest, then im also gonna request a retest on Hoopa-U as soon as possible seeing like many of the reasons given in the suspect test were "if we ban Hoopa-U, Dark will suffer", even if many people (almost all?) considered Hoopa-U overpowered/broken on psychic. Also the exact half of the monotype community considered it a problem at the time, so thats another reason for a revision too.

Also, me like Argus losed a bit of faith on monotype with the last tier decisions (aegislash and hoopa-u outcome mostly) so I hope u take this idea in consideration. If you already had this retest in mind then dont mind this post.


About the last part, Scpinion answered me later saying the council is discussing hoopa as well, so thats good news. Just putting this like food for thought.
I fully support a Hoopa-U resuspect since i agree that people had a similar mindset about type-bans and refused to ban it because of dark. That being said i still think we should let the metagame settle for 2 months or so before actually doing the suspect. This way we get to see how the Mega-Sableye ban actually changes the metagame and also things that seemed broken before might not seem broken in this non-msab meta and vice versa.
 
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Well I can't say I didn't expect it banned, but, im not very thrilled by it. Like I said in my write up on the suspect thread, I can see the meta becoming more offensive than it already is, with Mega Sab gone. On top of that, it wasn't broken to start with. But, it happened, so what can you do? I guess a plus would be Dark will probably have a little more variety, which is refreshing to see. However, with much more offensive Megas that are pretty hard to wall effectively (aka Mega TTar and Mega Houndoom), how would you plan to keep them in check? Probably by revenge killing them before they can sweep a team (from there its a domino effect). I am curious to see whether this is actually what is going to happen, because I am only theory monning, but my prediction is, less variation of playstyles.
 
The thing I don't understand is why everyone is making the new more viable dark megas such threats. If they are as amazing as everyone makes them out to be, why weren't they used over sableye? If Sableye was better, then there is no way these megas can be huge threats, since Sableye wasn't even broken.
 

Confluxx [Old]

Banned deucer.
The thing I don't understand is why everyone is making the new more viable dark megas such threats. If they are as amazing as everyone makes them out to be, why weren't they used over sableye? If Sableye was better, then there is no way these megas can be huge threats, since Sableye wasn't even broken.
Because the utility Mega Sableye provides outweighs what other Dark-type mega evolutions can do. Nobody said that those are better than Mega Sableye, but that they're bigger threats to Psychic than Mega Sableye was, since it gave Gardevoir a free kill.
 
Because the utility Mega Sableye provides outweighs what other Dark-type mega evolutions can do. Nobody said that those are better than Mega Sableye, but that they're bigger threats to Psychic than Mega Sableye was, since it gave Gardevoir a free kill.
Am I missing something here?
However, with much more offensive Megas that are pretty hard to wall effectively (aka Mega TTar and Mega Houndoom), how would you plan to keep them in check?
"Pretty hard to wall effectively" basically implies that more than psychic will struggle with them, no? Also, as I said before, if a type's best mega gets banned, that type is sure to drop in usage.
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Am I missing something here?

"Pretty hard to wall effectively" basically implies that more than psychic will struggle with them, no? Also, as I said before, if a type's best mega gets banned, that type is sure to drop in usage.
Fwiw, I think Dece1t was exaggerating the usefulness of the other Dark Megas. Mega Tyranitar, Houndoom, and Sharpedo are definitely good, but I'd rather battle one of them than battle a Mega Sableye any day.

And there is no certainty about Dark's usage. Sableye was definitely the best choice for a mega, but Dark is one of the fortunate types to have multiple great megas. With Sablenite gone they can still pick from 4 other viable options, so I'm very excited to see what kind of variety there will be in Dark teams, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
 
Because the utility Mega Sableye provides outweighs what other Dark-type mega evolutions can do. Nobody said that those are better than Mega Sableye, but that they're bigger threats to Psychic than Mega Sableye was, since it gave Gardevoir a free kill.
I second this post. Sableye was one of the best if not darks best mega, but obviously it exceled at beating types such as electric, ice, steel(?). Psychic is definitely going to get a lot more pressure with ttar houndoom or sharpedo since you can't just go into gardevoir and click hyper voice. Let's not forget that psychic barely has any switches to strong jaw crunch and dragon dance crunch.
 
I second this post. Sableye was one of the best if not darks best mega, but obviously it exceled at beating types such as electric, ice, steel(?).
I still don't understand this point no matter how many times I see it. Some of these types that sableye "excels at beating" literally need to run 1 move on a pokemon to counter it. Electric needs to run toxic on mega amph, luxray, or even something like electro ball mega mane. Ice needs to run specs frost breath lapras or froslass, and steel doesnt even get beaten by sableye at all. None of these sets are completely unviable.
 

Confluxx [Old]

Banned deucer.
I still don't understand this point no matter how many times I see it. Some of these types that sableye "excels at beating" literally need to run 1 move on a pokemon to counter it. Electric needs to run toxic on mega amph, luxray, or even something like electro ball mega mane. Ice needs to run specs frost breath lapras or froslass, and steel doesnt even get beaten by sableye at all. None of these sets are completely unviable.
The topic of this discussion is for the metagame after the ban of Mega Sableye. The discussion you're trying to start is pointless because the voting is over and the results are in. The time for you to discuss this was during the suspect discussion.
 

TheAce22

Banned deucer.
Just my 2 cents, but here we go...

Well let's see.... most Dark will run regular Sableye now, which still walls Mega Medi, so I don't see how that's a point.

I don't see how banning Sablenite helps the other types rise in usage, for example types like Electric were brought up. Electric still gets completely walled by Dragon, which is about as used as Dark. Poison was brought up, but it also gets walled by Dragon, and also by Steel.

It was brought up that a ban of Sablenite will cause an increase in Poison, which will affect Flying, since Poison has pokes that are effective against Flying, such as Nidoking and Nidoqueen. This is true, if the rise in Poison was to happen. But, as I mentioned above, Poison still gets walled by some of the most common types such as Steel and Dragon.

It was brought up that Psychic will drop in usage since Dark will use more threatening megas to it. This is pretty much the only thing I agree with, but only to a certain extent. With the ban of Sablenite, I expect Dark to fall in usage, since its best mega got banned.

Overall, the way I see it, some types that needed to have a Mega Sable check will now have a more viable set on their pokes, such as no Clear Smog on Weezing, and no Toxic on Mega Amph. Will that make them rise in usage? No, not really.
Man dude I never knew poision was walled by steel, not like it has dual nidos with nidoqueen now having the potential to run an offensive set, also depending on what mega vena set you are using you can get some solid damage off on steel.

And anyways just my thoughts are that dark won't lower in usage much at all, it will just become more offensively oriented, but dark has such a a great selection of mega's that just losing mega sabeleye won't destroy it, honestly for different types it can potentially become a harder matchup with the new offensive mega's running around, personally when I was laddering during suspect time I was finding it much harder for ground to deal with Mega Sharpedo than Mega Sabeleye. Honestly In my opinion mega sab getting banned can open up many doors for dark that weren't there before because most people refused to use anything but Mega Sabeleye, in the following month or two it should be really interesting to see what the the most used dark mega is, how people build their teams, and how teams overall perform.
 
Man dude I never knew poision was walled by steel, not like it has dual nidos with nidoqueen now having the potential to run an offensive set, also depending on what mega vena set you are using you can get some solid damage off on steel.
Poison had a 32% win ratio against steel during March, I really don't think anything has changed that much to change that ratio.
 
While I am sad to see mega sableye go personally, if it leads to a more balanced metagame than the one before the ban I guess it will have been worth it (hopefully poison and friends do rise in usage over time, though it comes at the expense of ghost)

On the topic of a hoopa retest, I think it would be interesting now that a precedent has been set for banning something without regard to how badly a type needed that mon...
 
(hopefully poison and friends do rise in usage over time, though it comes at the expense of ghost)

On the topic of a hoopa retest, I think it would be interesting now that a precedent has been set for banning something without regard to how badly a type needed that mon...
This precedent should have been set for a while, even before the first sableye test. Overall, its a pretty poor argument to not ban a pokemon, as it never questions whether or not the pokemon at hand is broken or unhealthy, and rather points out how good said pokemon is. Why would you keep a pokemon on a type if it is broken? Why trade metagame health just to keep a type relevant? An easier and more relevant method would just be to argue that said pokemon isnt broken. Scpinion cited this as a poor argument during the last suspect as well, because saying ''Ghost will remain relevant if we don't ban sableye, so vote no ban!'' doesn't argue that sableye isnt unhealthy for the metagame. That type of view of the metagame is dangerous, and potentially resulted in sableye and hoopa staying during their first suspects.

I also agree with some others in that we should wait and experience this sableye-less meta for a while before witch hunting the next pokemon. The problem with suspecting hoopa is why would people have a reason to change their views and votes on hoopa. The metagame is fairly the same (I guess mega sableye is gone now tho) and the hoopa test was only about 3 or 4 months ago. The ''this type will suck now'' argument wasn't used a much and therefore it seemed more and more people genuinely deemed hoopa not broken.

Furthermore, I don't see how Mega Tyranitar or houndoom etc, or a supposed ''more offensive metagame'' is a problem, and even if it was, it can't compare to the problem of mega sableye, so I see this as an improvement in many regards.
 
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Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
scp edit: removed the stuff directed at individual users. No need for it here. Take it to PM's or PS! if you want to discuss it amongst yourselves.

As far as hoopa goes, I agree we should let the meta sit for a few months. However, as opposed to popular opinion, I still stand by my vote in the last suspect. I still do not think hoopa is broken. I honestly don't care about the whole "oh it'll ruin dark" stuff. I don't support that nor care about it. I honestly just think hoopa isn't broken on its own in the current meta. I am a proponent of a suspect though. I think it for sure deserves one and we'll just see what happens when that time comes.

good stuff.
 
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I have a small quarrel l. Scp stated that the ending of the votes was TODAY (Frid the first, assuming midnight eat since NO time was specified on his post). However, his announcement was declared at around 07/01/2016 at around 1am. Does this mean that my vote can still put in the mix? It looks like my vote can tilt the results.

Will be more clear when I have time. As of how, here are screenshots of the suspect announcements and me casting a vote before the UNSPECIFIED deadline
 

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This is a metagame discussion thread and should be treated as such. If ed wins or any future people have problems with their voting rights, please start a smogon conversation/PM with council members or the hosts of the suspect test rather than posting here and cluttering up the thread.
 

Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
This precedent should have been set for a while, even before the first sableye test. Overall, its a pretty poor argument to not ban a pokemon, as it never questions whether or not the pokemon at hand is broken or unhealthy, and rather points out how good said pokemon is. Why would you keep a pokemon on a type if it is broken? Why trade metagame health just to keep a type relevant? An easier and more relevant method would just be to argue that said pokemon isnt broken. Scpinion cited this as a poor argument during the last suspect as well, because saying ''Ghost will remain relevant if we don't ban sableye, so vote no ban!'' doesn't argue that sableye isnt unhealthy for the metagame.
So like I mainly agree with you, but I feel like there needs to be a balance. The type should be kept in mind when considering the mon, and have the types need for that mon stacked up against it's presence in the metagame. That is to say, if a mon in really broken then ban away, but if it is manageable (even if it is annoying) and the type needs it to be at all relevant, those two things need to be compared. The type should at least be looked at. For example KyuW was a must for ice, but it was too broken. That is logical. But now take Hypothetical pokemon A, it is annoying as hell and kinda hard to deal with, but the type that it is on needs it desperately to remain remotely usable. That is a scenario in which the decision needs to be made on whether or not the type's need for that pokemon outweighs the general cons it has on the metagame. This metagame is made of 18 different types, not 8. I understand that it's impossible to make all types good, but I feel like we should make a effort towards getting close, so long as the metagame doesn't suffer too badly as a whole. But idk, think of it as like, "if mon A is too overpowered, to degree B, then it should be banned. However, if it is not that broken (not to degree B), then we should compare it's cons to the metagame with the type's need for it. Idk
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
So like I mainly agree with you, but I feel like there needs to be a balance. The type should be kept in mind when considering the mon, and have the types need for that mon stacked up against it's presence in the metagame. That is to say, if a mon in really broken then ban away, but if it is manageable (even if it is annoying) and the type needs it to be at all relevant, those two things need to be compared. The type should at least be looked at. For example KyuW was a must for ice, but it was too broken. That is logical. But now take Hypothetical pokemon A, it is annoying as hell and kinda hard to deal with, but the type that it is on needs it desperately to remain remotely usable. That is a scenario in which the decision needs to be made on whether or not the type's need for that pokemon outweighs the general cons it has on the metagame. This metagame is made of 18 different types, not 8. I understand that it's impossible to make all types good, but I feel like we should make a effort towards getting close, so long as the metagame doesn't suffer too badly as a whole. But idk, think of it as like, "if mon A is too overpowered, to degree B, then it should be banned. However, if it is not that broken (not to degree B), then we should compare it's cons to the metagame with the type's need for it. Idk
As others have said, overall metagame health is more important than one type staying slightly relevant.
There may be 18 types, but those 18 types are not monotype. Monotype is one single metagame. We should be concerned with the health of Monotype as a whole, not just Ghost or Dark.
 

Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
As others have said, overall metagame health is more important than one type staying slightly relevant.
There may be 18 types, but those 18 types are not monotype. Monotype is one single metagame. We should be concerned with the health of Monotype as a whole, not just Ghost or Dark.
Yes but frankly you that isn't seeing a forest for the trees. I completely agree that the metagame as a whole should come first, but if it isn't completely without a doubt broken, the types should at least be considered. This isn't to say "auto no because the type needs it", but rather to compare the two variables before coming to a decision, so as to not unnecessarily make more types useless than need be. The metagame as a whole is important, agreed, but the metagame is based around having different teams of different types, unnecessarily detracting from that diversity unnecessarily detracts from the metagame itself.
 

Lilymoding

formerly Kyosuru Jets
I mean unless you use ice punch or some other neutral coverage regular Sableye still walls Mega-Medicham, no?
Yes, but it's more saying that now hazards are easier to set up because megasab is gone, making it easier for megacham to clean up.
 
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