Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Srn]

Anyways thought I would post on some stuff I agree with or general things I'd like answered or addressed.

So I agree with M-Banette rising from ben and I do agree to C Rank. It is on par if not exceeds M-Absol and M-Ampharos in practical scenarios and is better than most people give it credit for. Idk what else to say ben covered like every single thing possible in his nom a couple pages back so not gonna bother unless asked.

I'm kind of neutral on Meloetta but that's mostly cause I don't use it, I see it used against me though. It's solid though played a couple of guys like Storm with his SubCM set but the set ben posted I think has the most effectiveness right now.

I'd like some replays of Doublade in action, ones that aren't ass either. It's on the verge of being unranked so let us know why it should be D with concrete evidence if you're interested thanks.

I did this in convo I had with team and thought it would be a cool idea to give a run down like this. Sort of just glancing at it and seeing what should move up or down.

S Rank

Altaria (Mega) - Fire Blast M-Altaria is just a new form of disease destroying the last legitimate checks it had.

Clefable - Good in S, I hate this thing to

Landorus - Lol

Metagross (Mega)- Still dumb so fine

A+ Ranks

Azumarill - Always underrated, fine

Bisharp - This probably will never drop down in ORAS lol. SD set + hazards can turn would be checks into lost causes.

Charizard (Mega-X) - I think this thing is a monster but I'm holding my reservations about S until it becomes cut and dry to me.

Diancie (Mega) - I think M-Diancie is a bit overhyped but can't ignore the different variations it has in screwing over would be answers to it.

Garchomp - One of the most consistent glue mons in the tier, not S at all though.

Gengar - Sigh why are all the legitimate switch ins to it such terrible mons. Fine

Gyarados (Mega) - Peoples preparation for this thing is almost impossible outside of using fat fightings and Keldeo hoping that it wasn't weakened about to take +1 EQ. It's good in A+

Heatran - Under appreciated, definite A+

Keldeo - Definite A+

Landorus-T - This thing looks more A everytime I see it, until I see SD sets which rips a balance a new one.

Lopunny (Mega) - Read Bisharp

Latios - People really underestimate what this is actually capable of everytime the notion that it's on par with Latias in viability comes up. Lots of strength backed up by a coverage move of choice for teams, can make a devastating wall-breaker with CM that even things like Heatran can keel over to. It's the definition of a good offense being your best defense.

Manaphy - Anything that can basically be used by a 4 year old is pretty much A+ in my eyes.

Sableye (Mega) - I'm just sitting here, double switching onto your support moves making you hate me and forcing out your fairies for easy prediction games. Fine in A+.

Scizor (Mega) - One of the best steel types in the tier right now. Definitely fine in A+

Talonflame - This will more than likely never be a debate.

Thundurus - NP / 3 attacks is retarded to go up against.

Tornadus-T - Kind of a given how useful this is at this point.

A Rank

Alakazam (Mega) - Some people have been arguing for a raise but I think that's a bit pushing it to me personally. I guess there's some merit depend on how you look at it but I prefer things to drop rather than rise.

Charizard (Mega-Y) - Poops on balance. Fine in A.

Excadrill - It'll more than likely stay in A for awhile unless sand offense magically becomes bad, so never.

Ferrothorn - Fine in A. Solid glue mon.

Gardevoir (Mega) - Defensive set rocks, M-Gard in its known glory is still great as well.

Gliscor - It's good here.

Hippowdon - Used this on like a million teams, definite A

Latias - Fine in A, Healing Wish is its saving grace and clutch.

Latias (Mega) - Fine in A during Landorus meta. Fat win cons that rampage tour scene with Stored power.

Manectric (Mega) - After Mega Lopunny this is more than likely the mon annoying offense in terms of megas. Fine in A.

Rotom-W - This honestly can drop in my eyes *gasp*. I can go in depth if need be.

Slowbro - Fine in A, CM Bro is sexy.

Skarmory - Just moved here kind of a given.

Starmie - I don't use this much but its one of the few non shitty spinners in the tier left so fine here.

Tyranitar - TTar is ttar, classics never die fine in A.

Venusaur (Mega) - Henry wanted a raise, I'm assuming cause of Mega Altaria. Not seeing it but I get the point and there's slight justification for it.

Weavile - Fine in A, let the bandwagon and hype die down before throwing this any higher.

A- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega) - Under appreciated needs only fat waters and grounds out and you're good to go.

Celebi - Sort of addressed this but I think it's riding on a whole lot of former glory that it shouldn't be riding on anymore. Should drop.

Gyarados - Fine in A-

Jirachi - I don't use this too much but from what I've played against looks like a solid A-

Klefki - Good in A-. Hazards, weavile switch in on offense, Heal Block, Fairy Lock, lots of good utility options for balance and offense to use.

Kyurem-B - Fine in A-. It's overplayed for being in A or higher a shitload of times.

Mew - Good in A-. Classics never die again.

Pinsir (Mega) - This really needs more usage tbh. It's still a monster. Good in A-.

Politoed - Kind of debating this one. I think Kingdra is bonkers under rain but Politoed supplementing the playstyle I don't think would be justification for it to be above Kingdra. They could be in the same rank for the simple fact any rain team or rain core is gonna have both of these while everything else is debatable.

Raikou - Fine in A-, nothing much else to say.

Serperior - Fine in A-, shitty typing holds it back from moving any higher.

Slowbro (Mega) - Fine in A- to me personally although I guess some people didn't think so.

Volcarona - Teams autolosing to this is a travesty but oh well, that enough solidifies it in A-

B+ rank

Alakazam - Most team thinks this should rise. Some have reasoned that the gap between Alakazam and Mega Alakazam viability shouldn't be that close though so I guess some reasoning or ideas would be nice.

Breloom - Been using it a ton lately with SD / Toxic Orb set Seed Bomb, Drain Punch, Mach Punch, SD winning a bunch of games with it. It's definitely solid in B+

Diggersby - I never understood the allure of Diggersby at this point in the meta. I guess it's wall-breaking power is kind of cute if you can actually pull it off. Just two cents.

Dragalge - We had a pretty big discussion I guess about two hours ago about this dropping. On one hand I sort of get where pro-drop is coming from in how it's slow as hell gets extremely worn down on the other hand this thing is forcing switches and netting huge damage when it clicks a STAB move. I've had a lot of success with it personally but I sort of get where a drop is coming from now in the meta with this heavier duty offense and stuff like Garchomp everywhere and grounds who can obliterate it.

Dragonite - Fine in B+. A- or higher is too much.

Gallade (Mega) - Never cared for this, probably never will. No comment.

Heracross (Mega) - I would technically drop this after extended use of it but realistically this is better than all the megas with the exception of Mega Tyranitar below it and most of the mons so have to say fine with this for now.

Hydreigon - No comment

Kabutops - Fine

Kingdra - Definitely fine lol

Magnezone - I honestly never liked this thing at all. I've always felt like Magnezone was a desperate attempt to patch up a team weakness that weren't always reliable enough to do so. Lots of Skarmory and stuff that Mega Altaria wants out of the picture in the meta right now so I guess this is ok.

Mamoswine - Fine in B+, it's really not A- material, not on the level of Volcarona and Mew basically.

Slowking - Just moved here.

Suicune - I think this is good after a lot of use with it, some don't. Better than almost everything in B though.

Swampert (Mega) - Haven't used this in awhile cause I don't find rain that enjoyable or appealing to use anymore.

Terrakion - Good in B+

Togekiss - It's ok but no definitive comment since I don't think I've used it to a level where I feel comfortable saying it's B+

Victini - Ladder hero mon, when people realize how overhyped this is maybe it'll drop but until then fine in B+ I guess

B Ranks

Amoonguss - Good in B

Azelf - Fine in B

Beedrill (Mega) - Fat chomp everywhere, fatter balance teams, hazard stacking teams everywhere. I think this is less appealing everytime I think about making a team where good M-Beedrill teams to me dedicate a lot of team support to supplement it and be this momentum grabber.

Chesnaught - This thing is actually super mediocre lol. It's so team specific and half of the stuff it's suppose to defensively check it can't even do so effectively due to the nature of the meta and how exploitable this can end up being.

Crawdaunt - Better than most people give it credit for. Has a good matchup against two opposite ends of the spectrum because of the tools it has to utilize, SD to break defensive builds with Aqua Jet + SD to handle offense.

Empoleon - This is ok in B for now.

Garchomp (Mega) - No comment, the few times I've used it I think were terrible so not gonna base my judgement solely on those few instances for now.

Gothitelle - Fine here

Hawlucha - Definitely fine here.

Medicham (Mega) - Probably should be same rank as M-Gallade at this point.

Quagsire - Needs to drop. Everything it defensively blanket checks is nice in theory and falls apart in practice. It defensively checks a good amount of stuff but after that it's so hard to justify using this unless you're using something completely unorthodox

Omastar - I wouldn't raise this personally. I find Kingdra superior to Omastar overall and if need be when I'm not exhausted can explain why I think it's fine here.

Reuniclus - Good here

Sceptile (Mega) - Never was a fan of this, but ben had a point in that all out attacker sets pack a punch.

Scizor - It's fine in B. People exaggerate the hell out of this for B+

Scolipede - Fine in B

Sharpedo (Mega) - Fine in B, disgusting cleaner

Tentacruel - This is in my eyes, a garbage mon. All of the utility it provides isn't even as hyped up as it is made out to be.

Zapdos - Fine here

B- Ranks

Bronzong - Fine here

Conkeldurr - Fine here

Feraligatr - Could probably drop. Tyrantrum is better than this honestly and this got hyped a lot when in practice I think it's a different story personally.

Gastrodon - Fine here

Houndoom (Mega) - I still think this is bad but it's gonna get hyped up about what it does in how it supposably can break all of its checks and counters out of some scenario that magically popped out of thin air. Abstain.

Infernape - fine here

Lucario - Fine here

Mandibuzz - Lame mon so team specific at this point sort of surviving in the fact it's better than most C+.

Sylveon - I guess this is ok for Specs set.
Tangrowth - Fine here. Nice pivot, good bulk with AV, decent power to boot with coverage options.
Toxicroak - Fine here, B is pushing it a bit I think just from my time using it.

Tyranitar (Mega) - This could honestly rise two subranks rofl but I'll hold off on that see how meta actually settles and see if people start getting the picture.

Tyrantrum - Fine here.

Feel free to reply to a specific part if you want a more detailed description of my thought process for an individual mon. I might not reply to you right away though, pretty tired.

I'm gonna go in reverse order cause that's the order i'm seeing it in and I don't like being organized.

Lol i know we have an age old mandi argument we had going so i'm not gonna let that spark again but I still disagree and personally believe it should be B+ :/

Ttar mega i agree should rise as well, scarf lando-T was the only reason it dropped in the first place and the usage of that set has died down. The existence of mega lopunny sucked but that just means its not gonna be A+ like it was in early xy.

Sylveon is garbage and can't take a hit for being such a slow specs user, i dont' think it belongs among B-

Can you explain why toxicroak is in B-? It seems like a cool water check, although i haven't used it myself.

Why is sharpedo-mega in B. I personally find it terrible. Same with tentacruel. Conversely, why is reuni only in B. CM/recover sets are friggin awesome its B+ atleast.

Garchomp-mega in B makes me cry but we've already fought over that too (not satisfied with ur explanation but anyways)

Beedril-mega should definitely drop, its really fast but its still not strong enough to knock out offense, and its coverage is ass.

Adamant LO terrak with stabs/rp/sd is just so independent, wallbreaking and cleaning on its own, (enough fuckin power to OHKO keldeo after rocks without an SD holy shit) it oughta be A- in my eyes, especially with Aegi staying out of the tier. Adamant LO sedge 2hko's mega sab, which was the primary reason it dropped.

zam should def. be A- atleast. such a threat. Dragalge is def. a B+ threat with the right support, its very powerful while also checking other powerful shit.

I think megabro should rise, iron def/cm can 6-0 some offense off the bat, and its hilarious. I think mvenu should rise too, its great on bulky offense and checks those difficult to beat fairies.

Explain why you want to drop rotom-w.

I personally think Azu should be S, having the potential to be Wallbreaker or cleaner with CB/BD and can break past all of its checks at +6 (well no shit but its really tough to stop), and mvenu is practically its only counter. It's just rly strong and rly bulky and rly good vs offense.

I don't think clefable's stats cut it but other ppl like it there so w/e.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

People want Rotom-W to drop so its used less because of how good the thing is and how annoying it can be with pain split

 

[MrAldo]

Still laughing at the victini description

Celebi, our beloved onion head certainly has fallen from grace. The more the metagame progresses, more unkind the metagame becomes to it. Weavile becoming more popular and having no problems beating it, tornadus-t being everywhere. The likes of mega scizor, talonflame, kyurem-b and volcarona give it all sort of problems, mega venusaur cause it generally doesnt run psychic. I guess the lure set is pretty nice but is something you will consider in specific situations, it is a lure set. I dont know, I just look at the A- ranks and it just doesnt fit with the rest of them. One of the few things that can deal with rotom-w pretty consistently along a bunch of water types like keldeo but the metagame is really unkind to it atm.
Still a good mon but B+ seems more situable atm.

Mega Sharpedo is a fantastic cleaner, take hazards into consideration even resists fear to constantly switch-in on strong jaw boosted crunches and it can finish weakened teams pretty easily. Solid B rank really, pretty threatening in practice and doesnt belong with the B- ranked.

Will comment on the rest later but I generally agree with most of them tbh.

 

[MANNAT]

AM because quoting that much shit is silly

Why don't you think that Infernape should rise? It can function as a check to a ton of the S and A rank mons from Clefable to Heatran to Lopunny, and it can run a veriety of sets that your opponent may not expect.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

I would drop one rank to the next mons rotom W (its still a good pivot but he is pressured as shit by the mons he is supposed to check like birdspam or metagross and his whore keldeo), Victini (His shitty typing, the weakness to pursuit and the rise of rocky helmet chomp and hazards in general really wears down victini more than every other wall breaker) and mega houdoom (wall breaking meh and charizard Y outclasses him so much, first turn is slow as fuck shitty typing and mons like keldeo, scarf
tyranitar, lando, Tornadus T Av, mega playboy bunny again are
on the rise and Mega houdoom really is such a momemtum looser ), things to rise : alakazam (gives a fuck about hazards, has unexplored options like calm mind with recover and 2 attacks or future sight, fast he doesnt care the 110 speed benmarck and laughs at tyranitars pursuit unlike gengar or latios, really good wall breaking power with life orb and no recoil a well played alakazam can destroy 2 to 3 mons in stall or sweep if u have recover or calm mind ).

 

[NotSoClutch]

I would drop one rank to the next mons rotom W (its still a good pivot but he is pressured as shit by the mons he is supposed to check like birdspam or metagross and his whore keldeo), Victini (His shitty typing, the weakness to pursuit and the rise of rocky helmet chomp and hazards in general really wears down victini more than every other wall breaker) and mega houdoom (wall breaking meh and charizard Y outclasses him so much, first turn is slow as fuck shitty typing and mons like keldeo, scarf
tyranitar, lando, Tornadus T Av, mega playboy bunny again are
on the rise and Mega houdoom really is such a momemtum looser ), things to rise : alakazam (gives a fuck about hazards, has unexplored options like calm mind with recover and 2 attacks or future sight, fast he doesnt care the 110 speed benmarck and laughs at tyranitars pursuit unlike gengar or latios, really good wall breaking power with life orb and no recoil a well played alakazam can destroy 2 to 3 mons in stall or sweep if u have recover or calm mind ).

Hey, don't give people ideas about bird spam or people might start expecting my team. ;)

Rotom-W: While it is heavily pressured by what it checks, it's such a nice blanket check to so much of the meta that it almost always finds value in any matchup.
Victini: Agreed
Mega Houndoom: It's not outclassed at all by zard Y since it has a completely different set of checks. The reason to use mega houndoom is taunt + it's speed tier + nasty plot + dark stab. Generally you won't be able to use all of its amazing tools, but they are worth noting for sure.
Alakazam: Feel it's fairly over hyped. Stall is dead in this meta as is, so stall breaking isn't as big as it used to be. Love the speed tier, but it's incredibly frail and is beaten by some common priority and scarfers. I think it's fine in B+. Maybe if stall finds a rise in usage, or when *cough* Lando is banned *cough* Zams wall breaking prowess will be needed, but as is it's just another solid speedy attacker.

 

[Latere]

AM it sounds like you think Mega Medicham should go up a rank to be with Gallade. I agree, my only thing is if Cham goes up to B+ then you're pretty much saying it's more viable than Mega Garchomp which I think is a bit of a stretch.

I know Srn already argued for a Mega Chomp raise somewhat recently and his nom was rejected but I'm going to try one more time because tbh Mega Chomp in B is the only mon on the list that looks hugely out of place to me. Like Medicham, Mega Chomp bends over balance and stall but it's much better against offense, works well with teammates and has a great surprise factor that you can use to your advantage.

As Srn pointed out, Mega Chomp steamrolls everything slower than it (just like Cham). Just gonna quote him bc he put it better than I could.

Now when you think of mega garchomp when building a stall team, you give up. You just move on. You realize that you're never gonna counter this thing, you just be sure to keep sab unmega'd for this thing alone, and you move on to the next threat. More often than not all that stall teams have is starmie and hope to scald burn... Mega garchomp has zero answers to just one set, your only option is to revenge kill.

So Mega Chomp and Mega Cham destroy fat physical mons, but Chomp is worse because it needs sand support right? Eh...

Garchomp @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Aqua Tail
- Swords Dance

With this set, Mega Chomp is pretty hard to wall and gets a kill against most teams every time it comes in.

Calcs

+1 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 306-360 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 298-352 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 423-498 (127.4 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 295-348 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 376-444 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 399-469 (95 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 297-349 (75.3 - 88.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 150-177 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 276-325 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 276-325 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 321-378 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 360-424 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This set has a chance of 2HKOing the entirety of S and A ranks except Celebi and Mega Slowbro WITHOUT sand (other than Hippo, which gives Chomp sand for free). All the support it needs is SR and a very tiny amount of prior damage on certain mons to guarantee the 2HKO. Medicham is similarly stupidly powerful, but it's also hard walled by Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro, the former being very common on stall. Mega Chomp easily breaks through both of these threats as long as it can dodge a Scald burn from Mega Bro. Mega Cham also has to rely on HJK. Ik hax aren't supposed to be a factor here but it really fucking sucks when you miss HJK and lose your mega. So while Cham is stronger than Chomp, Chomp still has more than enough power to perform it's role even outside of sand.

Although Medicham has priority, Chomp is still much better against offense because it's stupid bulk allows it to tank almost any hit.

As far as the revenge killing argument goes, you're also forgetting that nearly as much raw bulk as ferrothorn doesn't make that as easy as you think

/live

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 280-330 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 252-300 (70.5 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 284-336 (79.5 - 94.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 291-343 (81.5 - 96%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 204-241 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 302-356 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 230-272 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 208-247 (58.2 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 177-211 (49.5 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 239-282 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 296-352 (82.9 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 20 Def Mega Garchomp: 186-219 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 268-316 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 211-250 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Expert Belt Victini Glaciate vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 298-355 (83.4 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 204-242 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Sorry for the wall of text, but you can see the tier's strongest priority users (bisharp is even boosted lol) and relevant hard-hitters that are both faster than mchomp and don't have a super effective move vs it (and even some that do) and it's pretty much living all of them.
Specs hydro from keldeo? Dragon claw from char-x? Ice Punch from mega lopunny? Hp ice from mega man, raikou, or thundurus? You'd like to think these moves can reliably revenge kill the monster right? Not at fucking all.

You know what's funny? The only S and A rank mons that can OHKO Mega Garchomp either get OHKO'd on the switch in, are outsped and 2HKO'd, or need to be at 100% to take on Mega Chomp.

Moar Calcs

252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 204-240 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Adamant Mega Alt gets outsped by Chomp)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 408-480 (169.2 - 199.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 286-338 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (HP Ice isn't even a guaranteed OHKO, lol)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 262-310 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Azu gets outsped by Chomp obv)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (only Specs Icy Wind can OHKO Chomp)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 368-434 (102.7 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Tank Chomp is obv 2HKO'd, outsped and cannot OHKO in return)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 422-500 (141.1 - 167.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 229-271 (84.5 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (needs Ice Punch to OHKO Chomp, 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 301-355 (108.6 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 384-452 (120.3 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 350-414 (124.5 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 252-297 (96.1 - 113.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 301-355 (107.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 390-462 (99.7 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 279-328 (76.6 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

What these calcs show: everything that has any chance of OHKOing Chomp cannot switch into it (except Ice Beam Manaphy which still takes a ton from EQ). If you get Mega Garchomp in safely, it's pretty much guaranteed a kill so long as you predict correctly. It's bulk is so much more impressive than Medicham who gets OHKO'd by any reasonably powerful neutral hit. Mega Chomp takes a hit from most mons and OHKO's back.

So while Mega Chomp isn't deadweight against offense by any means and certainly better than Medicham, it doesn't excel against it either. Luckily, one of it's best partners, Sand Rush Excadrill, is great against offense. Drill and Mega Chomp together with sand support handle every archetype there is. Hippowdon is also an excellent sand setter that is a huge threat in the current meta.

And then there's the surprise factor. Recently, Tank Chomp has gotten a TON of usage. I think regular Garchomp is the most used mon in OU atm. This benefits Mega Chomp because 1) it easily deals with Tank Chomp and 2) an opponent that sees a Garchomp on your team will be shocked when your supposedly weak physical wall transforms into a fucking base 170 attack monster with mother fucking scythes for hands and proceeds to OHKO his entire team. Throughout the match they'll be less likely to preserve mons that annoy Mega Garchomp which can work to your advantage.

I know there's a lot of calcs and theorymoning in this post. I'll try to get some replays up soon but I haven't been able to play much recently so I'm sorta low on the ladder and will only get replays against scrubs... Also, I think Srn already did a fantastic job, much better than me, of showing why Mega Garchomp should be B+ but it never happened. I really think Mega Garchomp should be a rank higher than Mega Medicham. On paper Medicham has a lot more power and some priority but in practice I've found that Mega Chomp's significantly better bulk, typing, ability to boost and surprise factor were much more useful. There's nothing in B rank anywhere near as good as Mega Chomp.

If Mega Medicham goes up to B+, Mega Garchomp should go to A-. Either way Mega Garchomp should be B+ at least.

 

[Martin]

TBH, I agree with AM when he says that Rotom-W can drop. Sure it acts as a solid glue 'mon for virtually any team, but its biggest draw is simultaniously what makes it feel on a level below the stuff in A: it is unspecialised. Before I get a chorus of "unspecialised my ass it is always defensive", what I mean is that it isn't something which is exceptional on any given playstyle. I guess you could call it a "jack of all trades" in the respect that it goes into any team and functions - and it is good at what it does... just not excellent. Its all fine and dandy that you work well on most teams, but it doesn't matter a damn if you don't excel on any team. What I am trying to say is that it isn't "specialised" enough to be on the same level as anything in A. It doesn't shut down any playstyle and it doesn't wall much for a defensive 'mon. This means that it is stuck at maintaining momentum and letting Gyarados set up on another Garchomp. It is there to let the other Pokémon excel, but in doing this it sacrifices any chance of the 'mon itself excelling. While that is a big supportive niche that it has, it is more on the level of stuff like Politoed and Mew than on the level of any of Excadrill, Ferrothorn, bulky M-Gardevoir, Hippowdon, Latias, Skarmory, Starmie and Tyranitar as a supportive 'mon due to them being specialised in the teams that they function on, allowing them to excel in the roles they fill in a way that Rotom-W doesn't. I probably repeated myself a lot in that post, but it is mainly because it was more of a gut instinct for me than something that was easy to explain my reasoning for tbh.

 

[AWILDBIBAREL]

AM it sounds like you think Mega Medicham should go up a rank to be with Gallade. I agree, my only thing is if Cham goes up to B+ then you're pretty much saying it's more viable than Mega Garchomp which I think is a bit of a stretch.

I know Srn already argued for a Mega Chomp raise somewhat recently and his nom was rejected but I'm going to try one more time because tbh Mega Chomp in B is the only mon on the list that looks hugely out of place to me. Like Medicham, Mega Chomp bends over balance and stall but it's much better against offense, works well with teammates and has a great surprise factor that you can use to your advantage.

As Srn pointed out, Mega Chomp steamrolls everything slower than it (just like Cham). Just gonna quote him bc he put it better than I could.


So Mega Chomp and Mega Cham destroy fat physical mons, but Chomp is worse because it needs sand support right? Eh...

Garchomp @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Aqua Tail
- Swords Dance

With this set, Mega Chomp is pretty hard to wall and gets a kill against most teams every time it comes in.

Calcs

+1 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 306-360 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 271-319 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 298-352 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 423-498 (127.4 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 295-348 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 376-444 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon in Sand: 399-469 (95 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 297-349 (75.3 - 88.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 150-177 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 276-325 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 276-325 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 321-378 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 360-424 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This set has a chance of 2HKOing the entirety of S and A ranks except Celebi and Mega Slowbro WITHOUT sand (other than Hippo, which gives Chomp sand for free). All the support it needs is SR and a very tiny amount of prior damage on certain mons to guarantee the 2HKO. Medicham is similarly stupidly powerful, but it's also hard walled by Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro, the former being very common on stall. Mega Chomp easily breaks through both of these threats as long as it can dodge a Scald burn from Mega Bro. Mega Cham also has to rely on HJK. Ik hax aren't supposed to be a factor here but it really fucking sucks when you miss HJK and lose your mega. So while Cham is stronger than Chomp, Chomp still has more than enough power to perform it's role even outside of sand.

Although Medicham has priority, Chomp is still much better against offense because it's stupid bulk allows it to tank almost any hit.



You know what's funny? The only S and A rank mons that can OHKO Mega Garchomp either get OHKO'd on the switch in, are outsped and 2HKO'd, or need to be at 100% to take on Mega Chomp.

Moar Calcs

252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 204-240 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Adamant Mega Alt gets outsped by Chomp)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 408-480 (169.2 - 199.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 286-338 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (HP Ice isn't even a guaranteed OHKO, lol)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 262-310 (72.1 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Azu gets outsped by Chomp obv)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (only Specs Icy Wind can OHKO Chomp)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 368-434 (102.7 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Tank Chomp is obv 2HKO'd, outsped and cannot OHKO in return)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 422-500 (141.1 - 167.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 229-271 (84.5 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (needs Ice Punch to OHKO Chomp, 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 301-355 (108.6 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 384-452 (120.3 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 350-414 (124.5 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 252-297 (96.1 - 113.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 301-355 (107.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 390-462 (99.7 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 279-328 (76.6 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

What these calcs show: everything that has any chance of OHKOing Chomp cannot switch into it (except Ice Beam Manaphy which still takes a ton from EQ). If you get Mega Garchomp in safely, it's pretty much guaranteed a kill so long as you predict correctly. It's bulk is so much more impressive than Medicham who gets OHKO'd by any reasonably powerful neutral hit. Mega Chomp takes a hit from most mons and OHKO's back.

So while Mega Chomp isn't deadweight against offense by any means and certainly better than Medicham, it doesn't excel against it either. Luckily, one of it's best partners, Sand Rush Excadrill, is great against offense. Drill and Mega Chomp together with sand support handle every archetype there is. Hippowdon is also an excellent sand setter that is a huge threat in the current meta.

And then there's the surprise factor. Recently, Tank Chomp has gotten a TON of usage. I think regular Garchomp is the most used mon in OU atm. This benefits Mega Chomp because 1) it easily deals with Tank Chomp and 2) an opponent that sees a Garchomp on your team will be shocked when your supposedly weak physical wall transforms into a fucking base 170 attack monster with mother fucking scythes for hands and proceeds to OHKO his entire team. Throughout the match they'll be less likely to preserve mons that annoy Mega Garchomp which can work to your advantage.

I know there's a lot of calcs and theorymoning in this post. I'll try to get some replays up soon but I haven't been able to play much recently so I'm sorta low on the ladder and will only get replays against scrubs... Also, I think Srn already did a fantastic job, much better than me, of showing why Mega Garchomp should be B+ but it never happened. I really think Mega Garchomp should be a rank higher than Mega Medicham. On paper Medicham has a lot more power and some priority but in practice I've found that Mega Chomp's significantly better bulk, typing, ability to boost and surprise factor were much more useful. There's nothing in B rank anywhere near as good as Mega Chomp.

If Mega Medicham goes up to B+, Mega Garchomp should go to A-. Either way Mega Garchomp should be B+ at least.

I found your whole post rather... weird, to say the least. Just because you think Mega Garchomp is better than Mega Cham and AM appears to support it moving up means you suddenly have to pitch for one of the worse Megas to go to A-. Also, while Mega Chomp is bulky, sure, it doesn't have recovery and is easily worn down, making your "bulk to make up for shitty speed" argument rather invalid in my opinion. My previous point also reinforces the fact that Mega Garchomp just isn't that useful against offense, since a) speed tier is bad and b) quickly worn down. Sure, you have all those big fat impressive calcs to showcase Mega Garchomp's impressive power, but usually Garchomp will be forced out after getting a kill because of it's poor speed tier and the fact that said killed Pokemon will likely have worn Garchomp down in some way, making SD quite redundant IMO.
Pure physical on Mega Garchomp is also... questionable at best. I think Mixed Mega Garchomp is the best set Mega 'Chomp can possibly run, and for good reason. It wouldn't have to waste turns boosting to break through physically defensive Pokemon like Hippo, and instead smash them with a powerful Draco Meteor or Fire Blast, depending on which is appropriate.
You also keep implying that most people think that they HAVE to make use of Mega Garchomp's ability, but that's just not the case. Mixed Mega Garchomp functions essentially the same in most weathers, while it appreciates sand, it doesn't need it.
Edit: Yeah, another thing: Mega Medicham has a better speed tier than Mega Garchomp. 100 is pretty huge, allowing it to KO some common Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir with a little bit of prior damage.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Alright, just some thoughts I have, just want to throw in some support for a few nominations.

Re: Celebi

I'm actually not sure on this lol. I really like Celebi, but I do get where the opposing side is coming from - sheer amount of checks. It's vulnerable to a lot of stuff like Tornadus-T, Weavile, Mega Altaria, and that is probably a good reason for it to drop. However, it just seems kind of wrong to have it on the level of 'mons such as Mega Gallade and Diggersby, provided it provides so much support and utility. Abstain for now, but kind of leaning towards a drop given the metagame at the moment is pretty unkind to it.

Re: Mega Beedrill

Should probably drop. Rise of bulky Steel-types, so many more checks in general. Off the top of my head I can name stuff like Skarmory, (Mega) Scizor, Landorus (both formes), Garchomp, Heatran (bar Drill Run), Mega Sableye etc. Not really a great mon when it's frail as heck, requires tons of team support, weak to SR, and takes up a Mega slot (I know it isn't the best argument, but to be honest I'd rather use Mega Scizor at this point).

Re: Tentacruel

Yeah honestly I've used this quite a bit, and I really don't like Tentacruel. Faces tons of competition as a defensive spinner from Starmie, and the metagame is just kinda unkind to it. It doesn't really check Keldeo that well to be honest when SubCM Keldeo just sets up all over it. Tentacruel doesn't really check much considering that it's typing isn't /that/ great, I get that it beats Gengar and Specs Keldeo, and sets T-Spikes but I don't think that it's a justifiable niche that brings it to B rank alongside Reuniclus. Also uh I'd rather use Dragalge for T-Spikes lol.

Re: Mega Sceptile

Not sure about Mega Sceptile because I actually haven't used it as it doesn't seem very appealing to me, but I have faced it and it's pretty underwhelming. A drop seems justifiable given the sheer number of checks, subpar bulk, and the lackluster STAB combination. It's really not that great in a metagame more or less revolving around balance, and stuff like Mega Altaria, Weavile, and Talonflame exist. More or less gonna abstain on this because of my lack of experience.

Re: Mega Sharpedo

Mega Sharpedo shouldn't drop lol. This thing is an absolute monster, doing decently against all playstyles, especially offense and balance. Nothing actually wants to switch into STAB, Strong Jaw-boosted, Naughty-natured Crunch, bar certain resists and ultra-bulky mons like Ferrothorn (which actually is 2HKOed when at 85% or so), which are dealt with by the appropriate coverage move. It's a good sweeper that also checks certain Pokemon such as Bisharp and Weavile. People also under-estimate all-out attackers set which are excellent wallbreakers, as they can carry stuff like Aqua Jet / HP Fire which Protect + 3 Attacks normally wouldn't cover. Definitely fine in B.

sexy calcs

228+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-178 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
228+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 151-178 (44 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
228+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Altaria: 222-262 (76.2 - 90%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
228+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Poison Jab vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 240-284 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
228+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[AM]

I'm gonna go in reverse order cause that's the order i'm seeing it in and I don't like being organized.

Lol i know we have an age old mandi argument we had going so i'm not gonna let that spark again but I still disagree and personally believe it should be B+ :/

Ttar mega i agree should rise as well, scarf lando-T was the only reason it dropped in the first place and the usage of that set has died down. The existence of mega lopunny sucked but that just means its not gonna be A+ like it was in early xy.

Sylveon is garbage and can't take a hit for being such a slow specs user, i dont' think it belongs among B-

Can you explain why toxicroak is in B-? It seems like a cool water check, although i haven't used it myself.

Why is sharpedo-mega in B. I personally find it terrible. Same with tentacruel. Conversely, why is reuni only in B. CM/recover sets are friggin awesome its B+ atleast.

Garchomp-mega in B makes me cry but we've already fought over that too (not satisfied with ur explanation but anyways)

Beedril-mega should definitely drop, its really fast but its still not strong enough to knock out offense, and its coverage is ass.

Adamant LO terrak with stabs/rp/sd is just so independent, wallbreaking and cleaning on its own, (enough fuckin power to OHKO keldeo after rocks without an SD holy shit) it oughta be A- in my eyes, especially with Aegi staying out of the tier. Adamant LO sedge 2hko's mega sab, which was the primary reason it dropped.

zam should def. be A- atleast. such a threat. Dragalge is def. a B+ threat with the right support, its very powerful while also checking other powerful shit.

I think megabro should rise, iron def/cm can 6-0 some offense off the bat, and its hilarious. I think mvenu should rise too, its great on bulky offense and checks those difficult to beat fairies.

Explain why you want to drop rotom-w.

I personally think Azu should be S, having the potential to be Wallbreaker or cleaner with CB/BD and can break past all of its checks at +6 (well no shit but its really tough to stop), and mvenu is practically its only counter. It's just rly strong and rly bulky and rly good vs offense.

I don't think clefable's stats cut it but other ppl like it there so w/e.

People want Rotom-W to drop so its used less because of how good the thing is and how annoying it can be with pain split

I'll answer this part first since it's implying that I want it to drop so people use it less lol, mostly cause it's the only one I have time to respond to right now. No I think Rotom-W's capability to blanket check a bunch of stuff and grab momentum is sort of established by the community to be some sort of godly thing because apparently it's used on every team, even then it kind of isn't in comparison to maybe last year or so. First off for reference point Sucker Lunch loves birdspam and offense, so he's gonna think Rotom-W is the almighty god of the tier. Secondly there is really no thought process in preparing for it unless you're using some sort of offense that is focused on physical offense, which most of the time is gonna be inferior to those packing two special attackers or half on a team anyways. About that last point, there's so many wall-breakers right now that can just obliterate this thing and set up sweepers that can just set up on it so it's kind of ironic this is suppose to grab momentum when on any given team momentum is loss because at best all Rotom-W can do is either 1. Die or be so heavily damaged it relies on Pain Split that can be taken advantage of, let's face it ChestoResto is a momentary fix to its lack of recovery and is even easier to exploit 2. Click Volt Switch and give the player the illusion they just grabbed momentum or click Will-O-Wisp on the guy who thinks it was a good idea to have nothing to soak a Will-O-Wisp, water, or electric move in one go on the team. I think Rotom-W is A when people put it on this plateau that it somehow puts in a ton of work when in reality any consistent team that I've seen isn't ever gonna care about Rotom-W either for the fact they have ways to get past it such as stuff like Clefable, Reuniclus, Celebi, Heal Bell / Refresh Mega Altaria, etc. or if we're talking about what I think are actual good offensive teams, they're gonna have half the team perfectly capable without any effort to just sweep or pressure it in one go. I'm looking at all the A and A- stuff and Rotom-W is definitely better suited to A- because most of those things in A- shouldn't be rising at all and Rotom-W to myself in all of its fame and glory is now looking like it's more viable than Mew, Kyurem-B, and Volcarona for this threads current interpretation of the rankings, which I think is tragic. I don't think Rotom-W should obviously be leaving the A ranks anytime soon but I don't remember seeing a team in this meta right now where Rotom-W would actually put in work in the vision that people like to portray in comparison to how all the other A rank mons take effect in practice.

Anything else I'll reply later in the day.

 

[procrastinat]

I found your whole post rather... weird, to say the least. Just because you think Mega Garchomp is better than Mega Cham and AM appears to support it moving up means you suddenly have to pitch for one of the worse Megas to go to A-. Also, while Mega Chomp is bulky, sure, it doesn't have recovery and is easily worn down, making your "bulk to make up for shitty speed" argument rather invalid in my opinion. My previous point also reinforces the fact that Mega Garchomp just isn't that useful against offense, since a) speed tier is bad and b) quickly worn down. Sure, you have all those big fat impressive calcs to showcase Mega Garchomp's impressive power, but usually Garchomp will be forced out after getting a kill because of it's poor speed tier and the fact that said killed Pokemon will likely have worn Garchomp down in some way, making SD quite redundant IMO.
Pure physical on Mega Garchomp is also... questionable at best. I think Mixed Mega Garchomp is the best set Mega 'Chomp can possibly run, and for good reason. It wouldn't have to waste turns boosting to break through physically defensive Pokemon like Hippo, and instead smash them with a powerful Draco Meteor or Fire Blast, depending on which is appropriate.
You also keep implying that most people think that they HAVE to make use of Mega Garchomp's ability, but that's just not the case. Mixed Mega Garchomp functions essentially the same in most weathers, while it appreciates sand, it doesn't need it.
Edit: Yeah, another thing: Mega Medicham has a better speed tier than Mega Garchomp. 100 is pretty huge, allowing it to KO some common Pokemon like Mega Gardevoir with a little bit of prior damage.

A- is definitely pushing it for MegaChomp, I agree. But your post makes many points that are either wrong or apply to many different pokemon. First of all, no one ever said Chomp's bulk makes up for it's shitty speed tier, primarily because it's speed tier is not that shitty. 92 speed is more than enough to outspeed every single wall in the tier, and it's bulk makes it not so much dead weight against offense. If you say this thing is useless against offense, you've never used it. You say it's likely to get worn down because of no recovery, but this is true for so many other pokemon: Azumarill, Bisharp, Mega Metagross, Landorus, Landorus-T, Heatran, Excadrill, Mega Gardevoir, etc. Sure many of those are faster, or have priority, or can hold leftovers, but none of them have the combination of power, bulk, and speed that Mega Garchomp does.

Also, you say that Garchomp will be forced out or revenged after getting a kill against offense, and is therefore less useful, but once MegaChomp has gotten a kill, it has done it's job. Against offense, Chomp takes the hits that it can take, and will usually get a kill because nothing on offense can OHKO it. Besides, Chomp isn't meant to run through offense, it's there to bust holes for something that can (excadrill).

Third, while Mega Medicham does have a better speed tier, base 100 still isn't great, and it's bulk is awful. The example you used is a bit flawed too, as Mega Garde usually runs max speed on the stallbreaking set, so the best medicham can do is speed tie with a jolly nature. Also, it's afraid of pretty much any priority attack, while Chomp can stomach even the tiers strongest of priority attacks.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 282-333 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 304-358 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And just for fun.
240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 302-359 (83.4 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To sum up, Mega Chomp is not useless against offense because of it's bulk even though it's not meant to play against offense. Mega Chomp is not outperformed by any pokemon in the tier because of it's power, bulk, and deceptive speed tier. Mega Garchomp --->B+

 

[Vengeance417]

Entei for C+

Why is this beast merely C rank? I understand that there are better Fire types in the tier in general, but what makes Entei so terrifying is its Banded set. Besides Heatran (and even that's a stretch if Entei is packing Bulldoze) Entei's Banded Sacred Fire has next to no safe switchins. Its checks, such as Lando-T, Hippo, Bulky Chomp, Mega Altaria ect are extremely terrified of coming in on a Sacred Fire not because of the damage output (which is actually pretty substantial) but because of the very high 50% burn chance. It's very probable for Entei to put something out of commission. Even bulky waters such as Slowbro, Suicune and especially Azumarill do not appreciate being burned.

Entei also has access to Banded Extremespeed, letting him out-prioritize Talonflame's flying STABs and do massive damage or outright kill it if it's been whittled, and E-speed also lets it finish off weakened Dragon Dance users as well.

Edit: I'd also like to mention that Entei has access to Iron Head, which helps it superbly deal with Mega Altaria, unlike Dragonite and Zard X who rely on the inaccurate Iron Tail to deal with it. What makes Entei such a great user of it is that it's mainly spamming Sacred Fire anyway, so it's other options besides Extremespeed are mainly fillers, making it easy to fit Iron Head on Entei's move set.

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 178-210 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Sucker Lunch]

I just don't think Rotom-W should leave A rank. If you play him right, he can be pretty useful.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237695554 (I like this guy, but he forfeits during the Rotom-W sweep. ;~;). However, given the circumstances, I could've cleaned with Rotom-Wash.

Rotom blanket checks so much stuff its ridiculous. Its amazing how far Hydro-Pump, Volt Switch, Will-O-Wisp, and Pain Split can go.

 

[Mean Mr Snorlax]

Sucker Lunch

>Example replay of why Rotom-W is good

>Froze something that could really put a damper on Rotom-W's day early game

Also, he had a burned Garchomp, a frozen Ferrothorn, and an extremely weakened Thundurus left by the time he forfeited. Yeah, you could have swept with Rotom-W. That's nice and all, but you're ignoring the fact that you could also sweep what was left of that team with basically anything else in OU.

This isn't even to mention the fact that the closest thing to a switch in he had that didn't get frozen Turn 6 was Thundurus, and to be frank if your only switch in to anything other than a Choiced mon locked into Earthquake is Thundurus you're doing something wrong. Just because you played a dude with a sort of Rotom-W weak team and got a few lucky breaks doesn't make Rotom-W better.

If that replay is actually taken into account for Rotom-W's ranking I will be thoroughly shocked and saddened.

 

[Kurona]

Much as I love Sceptile, M-Sceptile is just kind of bad and it should drop. Serperior really wrecked it's viability; I'm not saying that M-Sceptile is completely outclassed by it and should never be used over it, but tbh when I'm coming up with FWG cores and I'm teambuilding Serperior's traits as an offensive grass are just so much more appealing to me. It has a double opportunity cost not only trying to prove itself worthy of your Mega Slot, but to prove it's unique traits are enough to justify it as an offensive grass-type over Serperior. Mega Sceptile just finds itself in a really awkward situation where it has decent resources but nothing really outstanding aside from it's speed; this does allow it to revenge kill but little else - it's a special attacking revenge-killing dragon that doesn't get Draco Meteor ffs and that really hurts. It has a very disappointing lack of coverage, lack of power, and lack of just about everything but speed. It can be used but I honestly don't see it on the level of other B-ranked 'mon like Reuniclus, Scizor, M-Beedrill and M-Sharpedo - hell, I find quite a few things in B- like Infernape, M-Houndoom, Sylveon and Tyrantrum to be a lot more reliable, consistent and just better overall.
tl;dr - middling power, big opportunity cost, very niche uses, hard to justify over Serperior, on par with B- mon more than B mon, Mega Sceptile B > B-

Houndoom (Mega) - I still think this is bad but it's gonna get hyped up about what it does in how it supposably can break all of its checks and counters out of some scenario that magically popped out of thin air. Abstain.

Has user: Recreant broke you AM

 

[Srn]

I don't think rotom-w should drop.
Now i know that its not bulky and most of what it does is just die to hits and get a burn off or something. Momentum and countering grounds is nice and all but it doesn't seem too impressive outside of that.
Well i'm gonna delve into an aspect that many people don't really think about in rotom-w: it's almost like a stall-breaker.

I mean, think about it. It comes in easily on skarm, hippo, slowbro, scizor, hell you name it and it can cripple it. Then, you can burn the few mons stall has to handle rotom-w, like mvenu or celebi, and then volt switch on out into something else stronger.
Basically, it generates momentum incredibly easily against stall and gives free switches into stallbreakers, while simultaneously wearing down several members (even with just rocks) and threatening to cripple most of the team.

Sure, that celebi can come in on rotom-w however many times as you want, but if it KEEPS switching into rocks and rotom-w KEEPS volt switching directly into that heatran, then ultimately, your celebi is LOSING to rotom-w! Once that celebi is gone, its likely that rotom-w can freely burn the scizor, volt switch the slowbro, hydro the hippo, etc, etc. It does all of this while keeping itself fairly healthy with pain split, and even if you burn or toxic it, its going to be sticking around for a while.

People think that its only use is checking grounds but when you pair it with the right mons it allows you to seriously pressure defensive builds.

Much as I love Sceptile, M-Sceptile is just kind of bad and it should drop. Serperior really wrecked it's viability; I'm not saying that M-Sceptile is completely outclassed by it and should never be used over it, but tbh when I'm coming up with FWG cores and I'm teambuilding Serperior's traits as an offensive grass are just so much more appealing to me. It has a double opportunity cost not only trying to prove itself worthy of your Mega Slot, but to prove it's unique traits are enough to justify it as an offensive grass-type over Serperior. Mega Sceptile just finds itself in a really awkward situation where it has decent resources but nothing really outstanding aside from it's speed; this does allow it to revenge kill but little else - it's a special attacking revenge-killing dragon that doesn't get Draco Meteor ffs and that really hurts. It has a very disappointing lack of coverage, lack of power, and lack of just about everything but speed. It can be used but I honestly don't see it on the level of other B-ranked 'mon like Reuniclus, Scizor, M-Beedrill and M-Sharpedo - hell, I find quite a few things in B- like Infernape, M-Houndoom, Sylveon and Tyrantrum to be a lot more reliable, consistent and just better overall.
tl;dr - middling power, big opportunity cost, very niche uses, hard to justify over Serperior, on par with B- mon more than B mon, Mega Sceptile B > B-


Has user: Recreant broke you AM

middling power, opportunity cost, and competitive with serperior are all valid but this?

It has a very disappointing lack of coverage,

What part of leaf storm/dragon pulse/hp fire/eq is bad coverage? That's freaking fantastic coverage if u ask me. That's one of the reasons why mega manectric is so good in the first place: its simple electric/ice/fire coverage threatens out so much shit that it makes volt switch all the better.

 

[Mean Mr Snorlax]

Well i'm gonna delve into an aspect that many people don't really think about in rotom-w: it's almost like a stall-breaker.

Oh, you mean that it's a worse Mew, something that is also A-? ...okay? Cool?

I mean, think about it. It comes in easily on skarm, hippo, slowbro, scizor, hell you name it and it can cripple it. Then, you can burn the few mons stall has to handle rotom-w, like mvenu or celebi, and then volt switch on out into something else stronger.
Basically, it generates momentum incredibly easily against stall and gives free switches into stallbreakers, while simultaneously wearing down several members (even with just rocks) and threatening to cripple most of the team.

And Defensive Xard walls the living shit out of it, and is, in fact, Designed to do so! Mega Sableye and Defensive MAlt also fuck it into next tuesday. Hell, even Mega Slowbro does okay against it. More uncommon stuff like Mega Latias and Cresselia also give no fucks about Rotom-W.

0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 128-152 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO

Sure, that celebi can come in on rotom-w however many times as you want, but if it KEEPS switching into rocks and rotom-w KEEPS volt switching directly into that heatran, then ultimately, your celebi is LOSING to rotom-w! Once that celebi is gone, its likely that rotom-w can freely burn the scizor, volt switch the slowbro, hydro the hippo, etc, etc. It does all of this while keeping itself fairly healthy with pain split, and even if you burn or toxic it, its going to be sticking around for a while.

If you arent packing U-Turn or at least Earth Power when Celebi is your only Rotom-W answer, you're doing something wrong.

People think that its only use is checking grounds but when you pair it with the right mons it allows you to seriously pressure defensive builds.

By this logic, Pretty much anything is a fantastic stallbreaker because if you pair it with a Gothitelle you won't have issues with stall.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

Oh, you mean that it's a worse Mew, something that is also A-? ...okay? Cool?



And Defensive Xard walls the living shit out of it, and is, in fact, Designed to do so! Mega Sableye and Defensive MAlt also fuck it into next tuesday. Hell, even Mega Slowbro does okay against it. More uncommon stuff like Mega Latias and Cresselia also give no fucks about Rotom-W.

0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 128-152 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO



If you arent packing U-Turn or at least Earth Power when Celebi is your only Rotom-W answer, you're doing something wrong.



By this logic, Pretty much anything is a fantastic stallbreaker because if you pair it with a Gothitelle you won't have issues with stall.

His point was that rotom W causes a lot of passive damage via burn and volt switch pair that with SR damage and the wall breakera that supports between each other to break stall u will see why rotom W is good vs stall.

 

[Srn]

Oh, you mean that it's a worse Mew, something that is also A-? ...okay? Cool?

Mew's rank was dropped because of mega sableye stops literally everything it does. Even gastro doesn't get away from rotom-w as unscathed as mega sab does vs mew.

And Defensive Xard walls the living shit out of it, and is, in fact, Designed to do so! Mega Sableye and Defensive MAlt also fuck it into next tuesday. Hell, even Mega Slowbro does okay against it. More uncommon stuff like Mega Latias and Cresselia also give no fucks about Rotom-W.

0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 128-152 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO

Ok, so? You just volt switch out into stuff that beats those, because rotom-w is supposed to and usually is partnered with mons that can take every counter you've listed!
You've also missed the entire point i was trying to prove: that rotom-w forces switches+burns and can thus rack up lots of passive damage.
Clearly you didn't read my celebi example, because if you did, then you'd understand that char-x does EVEN worse in that situtation because char-x has to take 25% rocks damage only to get volt-switched on and then get forced back out by lanT/latios anyways!
The same argument applies to EVERYTHING else you listed! Remember to read your opponent's arguments kids!

If you arent packing U-Turn or at least Earth Power when Celebi is your only Rotom-W answer, you're doing something wrong.

Ok lets pack earth power on a defensive celebi that has zero investment in special attack! Better yet, lets use u-turn because baton pass isn't a superior option in every way which also avoids pursuit! Lets not run really useful moves like heal bell or perish song (rly underrated, lets u beat CM'ers) because an uninvested earth power is more important than all of that!
Come back when you've used celebi on stall

By this logic, Pretty much anything is a fantastic stallbreaker because if you pair it with a Gothitelle you won't have issues with stall.

Not really, because goth doesn't beat every stall mon, and i don't know about pretty much anything forcing a switch vs most defensive pokemon in the tier and burning its counters all at once. Pretty much anything doesn't do that, only rotom-w does, and pairing just any old volturn mon with goth will not get you the same results.

Not that i'm encouraging the use of goth in any way shape or form; id rather stab my gums with burning iron than do that.

 

[BlueLobster]

Quick apoligy for going back a few posts, for some reson they didn't show up on my phone. I agree Mega Chomp should never be in a lower rank than Cham, yes they both destroy slower mons, but Chomp has good bulk allowing him to take a hit against offense mons, while Cham has cosiderably poorer bulk, meaning against faster mons you are basically forced to switch alot of the time. I think the reason Mega Chomp isn't already in B+ (or higher, but with stalls decline I tink A- is pushing it) is it still has that early xy underhype attached to it, when Chomp was seen as so much better. But Mega Chomp's amazing wallbreaking abilities and good bulk almost guaranteeing it will live a non SE hit from full/after rocks see it destroy bulky teams regularly. It's mostly free from the underhype, but people still criminally underate it. I've seen "just use Cube" comments regularly, but Cuba has a worse defensive typing, rocks weakness and one of the worst physical movepools of a physical mon in the game, only Klinklang's is worse of the top of my head. Cube isn't really a replacement for MChomp, although Cube is more viable 'cause it doesn't use your mega slot and can go scarfed to do better against offense.

To conclude, I say Mega Chomp should be B+, and both Cham and Gallade as B. MChomp should, IMO, always be at least 1 subrank above Cham, who I think is equal in viability terms to Gallade, and shouldn't go in the A ranks unless stall teams raise in popularity again. Cube should also be a subrank higher than MChomp at all times, as it is usually a better option due to being non mega.

 

[MilkyWay]

I'm going to go ahead and nominate Charizard X for S. This pokemon justs puts in so much work, both offensively and defensively, pulls its weight every game, is severely underprepared for, and only needs hazard support in return; which every team should have anyways. It's best set by far consists of Flare Blitz, Dragon Claw, Dragon Dance, and Roost, which allows it to wall break, check common OU threats, and sweep all in one set. It most notably checks Bisharp, Metagross, (Mega) Scizor, electric types, Serperior, Volcanara, Charizard Y, Landorus (must be in base form to do so, can then DD in base form) and many others. Thanks to Roost, it can afford to switch in and then even setup on the pokemon I mentioned above. I would even argue that many of the new shifts in the meta favor Charizard X. The decline in Choice Scarf Landorus-T gives it the freedom to run an Adamant nature now and the rise of TankChomp is actually a very good thing for Zard X because many teams are using it as their go to physical wall/check. Obviously Zard takes more damage killing chomp than before, but this pays off in the end because more teams are running tankchomp over physical walls such as Slowbro who give Charizard more trouble. Finally, consider how easy it is for Charizard X to break through many of it's checks and counters. Many of them, such as Azumarill and most Mega Altaria are 2hkoed by a +1 Flare Blitz. Others such as Hippowdon and Defensive Landorus-T have to be at full health and can only check Charizard X once. Finally, non Foul Play Slowbro and Thundurus can only status Zard ad and die in the process. This is great if youre running Charizard X with Healing Wish support because you can let yourself get statused, kill the appropriate chec, and then sweep later. I really think Charizard X is one of the most threatening, dangerous pokemon, and deserves to be S because it is just a monster

 

[Mean Mr Snorlax]

Mew's rank was dropped because of mega sableye stops literally everything it does. Even gastro doesn't get away from rotom-w as unscathed as mega sab does vs mew.

....And Rotom-W does jack all to Sab as well. You're point is...?

Ok, so? You just volt switch out into stuff that beats those, because rotom-w is supposed to and usually is partnered with mons that can take every counter you've listed!
You've also missed the entire point i was trying to prove: that rotom-w forces switches+burns and can thus rack up lots of passive damage.
Clearly you didn't read my celebi example, because if you did, then you'd understand that char-x does EVEN worse in that situtation because char-x has to take 25% rocks damage only to get volt-switched on and then get forced back out by lanT/latios anyways!
The same argument applies to EVERYTHING else you listed! Remember to read your opponent's arguments kids!

If a 'mon needs as much help as Rotom-W does taking out like half of the 'mon you find on stall in the tier, it's not a good stallbreaker. That's just plain and simple fact.

Char-X and Celebi... hell, literally everything I mentioned has access to reliable recovery. If you're argument is they can be worn down with burn/SR/Volt Switch, that kinda falls flat when every time you Volt Switch you give them a free opportunity to heal. It's not that I didn't read your argument, it's more that i thought I didn't have to state the obvious. Guess I was wrong.

Ok lets pack earth power on a defensive celebi that has zero investment in special attack! Better yet, lets use u-turn because baton pass isn't a superior option in every way which also avoids pursuit! Lets not run really useful moves like heal bell or perish song (rly underrated, lets u beat CM'ers) because an uninvested earth power is more important than all of that!
Come back when you've used celebi on stall

U-Turn vs Baton Pass is basically preference imo; depends whether you'd rather be taunt bait or pursuit bait. I usually prefer to avoid being taunt bait on stall because most things on stall already hate taunt as is.

Also:

0 SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 188-224 (48.8 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

That uninvested Earth Power you're mocking is 2HKO'ing tran all day long. It definitely has its uses, and it's certainly just as good if not better an option than Perish Song of all things if you have major tran concerns.

Not really, because goth doesn't beat every stall mon, and i don't know about pretty much anything forcing a switch vs most defensive pokemon in the tier and burning its counters all at once. Pretty much anything doesn't do that, only rotom-w does, and pairing just any old volturn mon with goth will not get you the same results.

Okay, I'll give you that my analogy had slight inaccuracies. "By that logic, pretty much anything that beats the stall-oriented Megas that Gothitelle loses to such as Mega Sableye is a fantastic wallbreaker because it's paired with Gothitelle so you won't have issues with Stall." Is probably more apt.

Also I think it's worth noting that if burn cripples a 'mon, it's not a counter to Rotom-W, it's a check. Saying something can beat its counters and saying something can beat its checks are two hugely different things, so you should probably use the terms correctly c:

 

[NotSoClutch]

....And Rotom-W does jack all to Sab as well. You're point is...?



If a 'mon needs as much help as Rotom-W does taking out like half of the 'mon you find on stall in the tier, it's not a good stallbreaker. That's just plain and simple fact.

Stallbreaker =/= wallbreaker. Mew rarely hits anything for what would be considered even reasonable damage to stall mons.

Char-X and Celebi... hell, literally everything I mentioned has access to reliable recovery. If you're argument is they can be worn down with burn/SR/Volt Switch, that kinda falls flat when every time you Volt Switch you give them a free opportunity to heal. It's not that I didn't read your argument, it's more that i thought I didn't have to state the obvious. Guess I was wrong.

Volt switch is used to gain momentum. Unless you pull a double into rotom or make a prediction, you aren't getting a free heal and even if you do get a "free heal", you are allowing free switches for your opponent and you aren't dealing damage to rotom.

Okay, I'll give you that my analogy had slight inaccuracies. "By that logic, pretty much anything that beats the stall-oriented Megas that Gothitelle loses to such as Mega Sableye is a fantastic wallbreaker because it's paired with Gothitelle so you won't have issues with Stall." Is probably more apt.

Also I think it's worth noting that if burn cripples a 'mon, it's not a counter to Rotom-W, it's a check. Saying something can beat its counters and saying something can beat its checks are two hugely different things, so you should probably use the terms correctly c:

Being able to burn something and getting past something are very different. You can still be a counter as long as the burn doesn't stop something from switching in and beating another mon. This is the case for gastro vs. rotom.

Honestly, I don't think Srn is trying to say that Rotom is the end all be all of stall breakers, but essentially stating that it's offensive prowess is severely understated and that rotom can even be pretty useful against stall.

 

[AM]

Honestly, I don't think Srn is trying to say that Rotom is the end all be all of stall breakers, but essentially stating that it's offensive prowess is severely understated and that rotom can even be pretty useful against stall.

Can you elaborate how Rotom-W is actually useful against stall? I'd be more inclined to say it's practically useless against it but apparently I'm missing something considering I've had offensive teams be slightly annoyed by Rotom-W but never had a stall team ever care about it.

Pretty sure I'm implying Rotom-W's momentum grabbing capability. I wouldn't use Rotom-W under the guise of power or some illusion that it's a "stall-breaker".