Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[TPP]

With all due respect, I don't believe that Body Slam is worth a moveslot on CB Azu, mainly because it's redundant coverage. In your first replay, you had a boosted M-Zor, which could have been used to accumulate more attack boosts against the Ferrothorn (+5 0 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 270-318 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and greatly weaken your opponent's Mega Venusaur, to a point where Azumarill may have been able to clean with CB Aqua Jet. Instead, you opted to preserve it by pivoting into AV Torn (which is not a bad play in itself, but considering that Terrakion and Hoopa-U aren't KO'd from stock Bullet Punch, it was definitely questionable given that finding an opportunity to Roost was near impossible at that point). On Turn 20, you opt to abuse the choice-locked Terrakion by going for Body Slam on Mega Venusaur (which failed to 2HKO), but paralyzed it. At that point in the game you still had AV Torn to reliably switch into Mega Venu, meaning that the paralysis was unneeded for you to win the game. I think it's fair to say that your first replay did not support your claim being that CB Azumarill is capable of tearing apart most teams due to its limited switch-ins because Mega Scizor did most of the work that would open holes for the rest of the team.

Had you shown Azumarill punish Ferrothorn by removing its item or 2HKOing with Superpower (or even the unconventional Ice Punch to lure Mega Venusaur prior to Mega evolution) to generate momentum and create a free switch to Mega Scizor/ Torn-T, respectively, I might have been convinced by your argument that Azumarill is a potent threat to prepare for, and is worthy of S Rank.

Regarding my opinion on Azumarill, I believe it's certainly one of the best 'mons in A+ due to its ability to apply offensive pressure on the opponent, and also take the role as a solid pivot with AV, but I need to try the Defensive Sap Sipper set before I form an opinion.

Body Slam was just a fun lure I wanted to try out against Mega Venusaur, and I happened to pull it off, so that's why it's there lol. Paralyzing stuff was to be able to slow it down and other checks to it so Azu could either get the KO right there, or come in later and outspeed them. It's not the best idea, but it just worked so it's not that big of a deal. It was just something fun with Azu that worked out. Mega Venusaur is the best switch into Azumarill, and I wanted to show a fun replay of Azumarill crippling it.

The 2nd Replay is the more serious one as Azumarill literally had killed everything on his team at that point before he quit and nearly killed Tentacruel (which is considered a good switch into Azumarill) and Chansey (Sylveon had been damaged by Skarmory, but was in a position to die to hazards or Aqua Jet). It was in a position where it could've finished off his team, and the main point I wanna draw from that replay, is that Azu was able to switch in and get a kill or do a massive amount of damage. There's not many mons that can afford to switch into Azumarill without the worry of nearly dying, or losing their item to Knock Off other than Mega Venusaur and Mega Scizor (still loses half it's health to Waterfall so it's kinda risky), and that's why it's able to do what it did in this replay most of the time, hence the reason I supported it to go to S Rank.

 

[Heatmor]

Rain is a great playstyle in OU right now, and probably is the best kind of weather team so far. I see a lot of Tyranitar/Hippowdon and Excadrill cores, but I rarely actually see a full-blown Sand Team. Not saying that it's bad, but Rain is much more popular from what I've seen.
Not to mention that Rain has less gaping weaknesses. Sand Teams generally have gaping weaknesses to Fighting, Water, Ground and Grass Types, as all but three types take sandstorm damage. That's why they have to work around sandstorm damage, which generally results in these weaknesses.
On Water, things are more diverse, and there are more perks to Water, and best of all, there is no damage, so there are more options. Tornadus-Therian can hit Hurricanes for perfect accuracy and defeat Grass Types. Ferrothorn can set up Stealth Rock, and act as a solid defensive backbone, as its fire weakness is completely covered. Politoed can hit hard hits with a Rain-Boosted Hydro Pump, and, should you choose to go defensive, provide Stellar support. Rain Teams have a plethora of viable options that make it great in the metagame.

 

[EraiMHFU]

K I've decided to stop shitposting here for now.

Do you think this is the face of mercy?

Supporting to S rank.

Azumarrill is such a wonderful mon in the current meta, almost every metagame trend benefits this thing, as a lot of people stated above, a common trend in offensive teams is slapping a ground type as their pivot, glue and hazard setter, Azu just laugh at this, as most offensive teams will fall to their kneels once their glue is gone, since offense has no switch into this monster and it can take hits quite well, at least one kill per match is guaranteed when facing offense, and if you don't get a KO, your are using Azu wrong.

As for Balance, their common answers to Azu lack reliable recovery, Tentacruel hates losing it's Black Sludge, and it can't come repeatedly to "wall" it:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 181-214 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 126-148 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Ferro can't even switch in because it runs the risk of getting blasted by Superpower:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-378 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Balance's only solid answers to Azu are M-Scizor or M-Venu, wich both can be easily dealt with teammates.

Stall also has a hard time vs Azumarrill too since their usual answers in Skarmory or Amoongus can get just too pressured since the other stall mons are 2HKO'd.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 135-160 (40.4 - 47.9%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 197-232 (45.6 - 53.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Azumarrill is also a very splashable mon, since it offers unique qualities to virtually every playstyle, offense just loves the insane power of this thing, and it also is not completely ass vs opposing offense unlike other wallbreakers like Hoopa-U or Medi because it has actual bulk, and, speaking of bulk, the AV set is pretty good glue that packs a punch unlike AV Raikou (lol) or Torn ( hot topic rn).

Balance as well appreciate the power of Azu while not losing any synergy because of Azumarrill's wonderful typing and solid bulk.

Azumarrill can also run those unorthodox defensive sets for stall, but I'd prefer to just run Heatran to wall serp or Zard X tbh, but it worths consideration since it has that amazing typing and nice bulk, and the ability to wall some stallbreakers like Serperior or Energy Ball Manaphy.

I think that Azumarrll can just fill the requiriments to be S rank, it has little opportunity cost, a good versatility, and the ability to beat most of it's own checks (electrics are raped by BD Aqua Jet and Grass types bar venu are walled by Sap sipper variants), it needs small support to work, and the downsides of using it are outshined by its positive traits.

Pros:
+ Amazing Typing
+ Solid Bulk
+ Insane Power
+ Good synergy with top mons like Zard X, Talonflame and many Dragons.
+ Unpredictable
Cons:
- Awful Speed
- Although it has a great typing, it has some nasty weakness to Grass and Electric
- Choice band needs prediction and BD is hard to pull off.

 

[thesecondbest]

That's not how math works. You are missing approximately 50 variables.

Well I'm not too sure about that considering I do competition math, for example I qualified for USAJMO last year, but I'll walk you through the math if necessary.
Chance of hitting hurricane: 70%
Chance of confusion given hit: 30%
Chance of critting given hit: 6.25%
All the numbers are derived with these three variables!! For example, chance confusion = chance hit * confusing given hit = 70*30=21. And confusion turns - "
The confused condition causes a Pokémon to hurt itself in its confusion 50% of the time. The damage is done as if the Pokémon attacked itself with a 40-power typeless physical attack.

Confusion wears off after 1-4 attacking turns." (bulbapedia) The mean of 1-4 is 2.5, and 2.5 * 50% = 1.25 turns lost to confusion. Wow! And 1.25*21=26.25 which is barely less than the 30% you guys love throwing around. Was this really too hard for you? That's fine, I hope you understand it now.
Also Nice one liner.

 

[Celticpride]

While I enjoy the math behind Torn-T's viability as much as the next guy, that's largely irrelevant to the discussion. I'm sure there's at least a dozen other things that contribute more to Torn-T's viability so please talk about those if Torn-T discussion is going to continue.

 

[aceguy123]

AM Edit: Celtics "one liner" was for moderating purposes.

Ok so with that out of the way I'll give you a couple of those dozen other things you want people to bring up about the state of Torn-T. Torn-T deserves S because it delivers on multiple fronts. It can destroy balance and stall with its mixed attack stats and moves, it has a wide move pool that can cover many counters and check, it can pivot around and scout easily, it mitigates its SR weakness/life orb chip and whenever it is brought in to check with regenerator, it gives you a source of hax (always important), and it straight up bullies pretty much all fast mons not named Weavile. It's hurrimiss really is its biggest drawback honestly since everything else works great (use superpower kids). Unless you have a weavile, chances are your only true revenge kill option is priority. Common counters to its role like Heatran and Chansey can be bopped, the most common Heatran gets 2HKO'd by Hurricane>Superpower and Chansey gets 2HKO'd by Knock Off>Superpower.

All that said, I still am on the fence if it should be S. It is definitely the best A+ mon with Azumarill and I think it is a little bit better than Azu simply because people outplay themselves against Azu most of the time by not just attacking the damn thing instead of switching around and getting freely hit with play rough but with Torn-T it can actually outplay with prediction, scouting, and utility. That being said, I dunno if it has the versatility of the big 4. It probably has as much as Manaphy but Manaphy is a little bit better at its main role than Torn-T is so it's a bit of a toss up for me. I'm thinking S atm just because it has a lot of outplay potential with prediction.

 

[gobln]

Could you please elaborate on what traits of Rain make it so easy to counter, whether that be stacked Water types, dependence on Politoed, or some other factor?

As is, Rain is a powerful playstyle thanks to the high speed tiers of Swift Swimmers against offense, strong unboosted power thanks to Rain Boosted Water STABs for decent Sweepers, Wallbreakers, and Cleaners, Good synergy with mons like Ferrothorn or Mega Scizor, and immediate power of their attackers with Weather compared to a need to Boost.

As is, the rise of Bulky Chomp, which Rain isn't the most troubled by, and the popularity of mons that use Rain well such as Azumarill, Manaphy, Keldeo, and the (hotly discussed) Tornadus-T could be points in its favor.

I don't want to immediately dismiss your points, as they may have some valid basing, but simply stating "Weather is subpar" and blaming it on people not being "half-decent at building" without presenting the objective flaws and how they hurt the playstyle against current Meta Trends doesn't make people receptive to your arguments, right or wrong.

gladly.

First off, the reason i didnt write a huge manifesto as many people do in this thread was because i thought.
a. people knew the obvious
b. i was pressed for time

Rain is easy to counter, with the rise in the god wall hippo, and the incredible rise of medicham.

Medicham, and to a lesser extent other priority users, completely buttfuck rain. Not to mention one of the best, and most popular stallbreakers (charizard y)

MegaCham (and im pretty sure Lop and Gallade) OHKO politoad. This forces politoad to use a strong counter to the previously mentioned mons.

"Stally-rain" is pretty much dead, the majority of rain teams take advantage of swift-swin and just try to sweep (scrub strat btw)

So either the politoad is immediately sacked or its switched out into something that is going to take a lot of damage. Even if its something like cress it will still take a big hit, and srsly dude, reading a switch isnt that bad. All decently made teams that use MegaCham, Gallade, and Lop carry something to deal with cress, slowbro, and other hard-counters to previously mentioned mons. Weavile + medicham kinda just shits on rain teams all-together.

And lets not forget, Thunder-punch medicham (extremely popular poke rn) is on the rise.


So you have a playstyle that you have to dedicate to. Politoad is the definition of dead weight.

Even if everything i said was untrue there are still pokemon Jellicent, though not used a wide amount it kinda shits on swift swim (minus that one dark type im forgetting)


Rain is just not good, its a meme-tier team. Its not hard to wall some low-ladder kids rain-team for 5-8 turns (and then double into medi so you can dunk on the politoad again rOFL)


And this doesnt apply to Rain-dance manaphy, since that pokemon is in a world of its own. (though that set is becoming a bit obsolete.)


Do you understand yet? Any questions? (Gen 5 circlejerkers need not apply)

 

[SketchUp]

Rain is easy to counter, with the rise in the god wall hippo, and the incredible rise of medicham.

I knew Hippowdon was a pretty cool wall. Some Italian dude once told me it is even a Mega Venusaur counter. Didn't know it was a rain counter though.

Medicham, and to a lesser extent other priority users, completely buttfuck rain. Not to mention one of the best, and most popular stallbreakers (charizard y)MegaCham (and im pretty sure Lop and Gallade) OHKO politoad. This forces politoad to use a strong counter to the previously mentioned mons.

You combine the lack of knowledge how rain works with stuff that is just not true. Rain is an offensive playstyle so guess what: you probably have to sac something when a powerful wallbreaker such as Medicham or Heracross comes in on your slow pokemon (Politoed) Neither of those have an easy time rain because every swift swimmer is able to OHKO it and there are many other answers like Torn-T, Keldeo and Latios in case you are retarded enough to sac all your rain sweepers. Also Politoed with Rest counters Charizard-Y so it won't be a problem unless Charizard-Y switches in against Politoed, in which case you can pivot with a pokemon like Kingdra or Torn-T to take the Solar Beam and switch back to Politoed. Not really much ' buttfucking' going on there.

So either the politoad is immediately sacked or its switched out into something that is going to take a lot of damage.

It's the latter but that's not really surprising against an offensive playstyle. Still Mega Medicham has very few switchin opportunities against rain so good luck actually dominating that playstyle. Same argument can be said about Thunder Punch Mega Medicham which btw is not common (also HJK / Zen does more than TPunch against almost every common rain pokemon)

Would have loved to make a longer post but gotta go

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I'm not going to even bother taking down every. . . We'll say, thought out point you made here but this one is so unbelievably laughable. . .

Rain is easy to counter, with the rise in the god wall hippo, and the incredible rise of medicham.

The worst part is, it's the first sentence you posted, and it kills damn near all credibility you had and prevents people from continuing to read your post. Hippo is in exactly 0 ways a counter to rain.
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 242-283 (57.6 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 468-554 (111.4 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 224-266 (53.3 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The list goes on. Medicham is also not a counter, AT ALL. Hippowdon I can understand where you're coming from because it stops rain, but Mega Cham doesn't do shit but fake out, and get off a shit weak Bullet Punch and dies, or switches out. Point is, neither of those are anywhere NEAR counters. And it prevented me from reading the rest of your post, and I refuse to do so even now, as I'll likely just end up in writing a book and a half describing why your arguments are flawed. It'd fall on deaf ears anyways.

Do you understand yet? Any questions? (Gen 5 circlejerkers need not apply)

My arrogance doesnt exist. I simply know how the game works, its not difficult, the game isnt deep or confusing.

Lol.

EDIT: I lied, I saw one more line while scrolling back up. . .

Politoad is the definition of dead weight.

Are you aware that Politoed is REQUIRED for rain teams to function? How can it be dead weight when it is the reason the team type exists? It is the most important member of the team actually, so I have no idea how in the world it can be considered dead weight when it's the reason the team exists.

 

[EraiMHFU]

Bruh..

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham in Rain: 409-483 (156.7 - 185%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile in Rain: 409-483 (145.5 - 171.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Medi + *insert dark type* dies to rain since kingdra outpeeds them and murders them.

Rain is an extremely antimeta playstyle rn kingdra just murders everything not named azumarrill, Kabutops + Kingdra is just so hard to stop since they are so fast and the only form of priority that bops Kabu is mach punch.

Please inform yourself before arguing, Hippo just DROPPED last time, didn't rise, medi is ass vs anything faster because of subpar bulk.

I mean, you even said "scarf Weavile shits on M-Zam".

 

[Master B8s]

Ok we can stop feeding the shit post on rain. Regardless of goblin being uninformed or just trying to troll, there is clearly no effort being put into his posts and no knowledge on rain in general (i don't need usage for thunder punch on medicham cause it isn't a common thing). This will probably get deleted cause it doesn't have anything to do with the viability rankings, but when I have to read posts that say "hippo And medicham counter rain", you know it will just lead to unintelligent arguments.

 

[azureleaf17]

gladly.

First off, the reason i didnt write a huge manifesto as many people do in this thread was because i thought.
a. people knew the obvious
b. i was pressed for time

Rain is easy to counter, with the rise in the god wall hippo, and the incredible rise of medicham.

Medicham, and to a lesser extent other priority users, completely buttfuck rain. Not to mention one of the best, and most popular stallbreakers (charizard y)

MegaCham (and im pretty sure Lop and Gallade) OHKO politoad. This forces politoad to use a strong counter to the previously mentioned mons.

Okay, everyone knows that Politoed is weak as piss. But two things:

1. Scald is way too good. If it gets the burn on anything switching in (including Medicham and Hippowdon), there goes your "counter."
2. 252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 360-424 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO.

Nice clean OHKO there on a specially defensive Politoed. God forbid if it's physical.

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Politoed: 270-318 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh, and please check your "I'm pretty sure":
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 279-328 (72.8 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

EDIT2: Sorry, posted wrong calc for Medicham — should've been Mega.

"Stally-rain" is pretty much dead, the majority of rain teams take advantage of swift-swin and just try to sweep (scrub strat btw)

"Scrub strat" that peaked #1 on the ladder. Nobody has used "stally-rain" since Generation V, and it probably wasn't even the best playstyle then.

So either the politoad is immediately sacked or its switched out into something that is going to take a lot of damage. Even if its something like cress it will still take a big hit, and srsly dude, reading a switch isnt that bad. All decently made teams that use MegaCham, Gallade, and Lop carry something to deal with cress, slowbro, and other hard-counters to previously mentioned mons. Weavile + medicham kinda just shits on rain teams all-together.

I'm really not sure where you got the idea that rain team members are easy to pick off, given that most of them are at the very least passably bulky (Kingdra, Mega Swampert, even Kabutops has surprising 60/105 physical bulk that takes max 25% from Adamant Mega Medicham Bullet Punch) and can resist certain forms of priority like Ice Shard (Weavile, Mamoswine) and Bullet Punch (Scizor, Medicham).

Also, let me check your "counters":

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 367-432 (87.3 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Medicham: 263-309 (99.2 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 238-281 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 182-218 (61.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

None of these calcs are in rain, or with Rocks up.

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 204-242 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 253-298 (95.4 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 282-333 (100.3 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 194-230 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again, no rain. I don't even know why I'm including calcs on Weavile. Also, keep in mind that Hippowdon cannot be both physically and specially invested; it's not hard to overwhelm with super-effective attacks from both sides of the spectrum.

And lets not forget, Thunder-punch medicham (extremely popular poke rn) is on the rise.

Medicham 1500 stats (December):
Thunder Punch 4.351%

It didn't even make it onto the 1695 and 1825 usage stats.

So you have a playstyle that you have to dedicate to. Politoad is the definition of dead weight.

You do this for every team, not just for rain. Politoed is far from deadweight; if you KO it, rain is still up, and if you don't, then it switches into a teammate with good bulk, double speed and obscene power.

Even if everything i said was untrue there are still pokemon Jellicent, though not used a wide amount it kinda shits on swift swim (minus that one dark type im forgetting)

You say Politoed is deadweight, and then you mention a Pokemon like Jellicent who literally has no purpose outside of checking rain?

Rain is just not good, its a meme-tier team. Its not hard to wall some low-ladder kids rain-team for 5-8 turns (and then double into medi so you can dunk on the politoad again rOFL)

And this doesnt apply to Rain-dance manaphy, since that pokemon is in a world of its own. (though that set is becoming a bit obsolete.)

Do you understand yet? Any questions? (Gen 5 circlejerkers need not apply)

Here's the thing: Rain is an offensive style that forces the opponent to play in different ways. Yes, there are counters to it, but someone mentioned above that it's anti-meta, and I think that's a good word for it: if you're prepared for it, it's not too bad, but not every team can be prepared for the kind of offense with this combination of speed, power, and bulk. It's not just a Generation V thing, it can be a terrifying tool for good offensive players.

EDIT:

Ok we can stop feeding the shit post on rain. Regardless of goblin being uninformed or just trying to troll, there is clearly no effort being put into his posts and no knowledge on rain in general (i don't need usage for thunder punch on medicham cause it isn't a common thing). This will probably get deleted cause it doesn't have anything to do with the viability rankings, but when I have to read posts that say "hippo And medicham counter rain", you know it will just lead to unintelligent arguments.

I posted in response to his argument, but also for the sake of anyone thinking that rain isn't a force to be reckoned with (I didn't aim any jabs at him specifically). It's nowhere near as destructive as it was in Generation V, but it's still very good.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Err... could we get back to the Tornadus-Turd discussion now? This whole argument about rain is derailing the thread and straying away from the point of a VIABILITY RANKING THREAD. If you want to spark a conversation about rain, you should've nominated a drop for Politoed.

Personally I hate Torn-T with a passion, but I've never used it so I can't give you guys my competitive standpoint on the issue.

EDIT: Seriously guys, don't feed the troll... er, gobln.

 

[Arik]

Okay, everyone knows that Politoed is weak as piss. But two things:






1. Scald is way too good. If it gets the burn on anything switching in (including Medicham and Hippowdon), there goes your "counter."
2. 252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 360-424 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO.

Nice clean OHKO there on a specially defensive Politoed. God forbid if it's physical.

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Politoed: 270-318 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
.

Bro I agree with what you're saying but you got the calc wrong lol. You used Standard Medi.

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Politoed: 367-433 (95.8 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO.


Also on the subject of "M-cham buttfucks rain " I have to admit that is completely wrong and I have no idea how and why he has that opinion. M-Cham can OHKO poli(no one should ever stay in unless they want to lose) but Rain has a lot of stuff that can revenge Medi and play around it. Kingdra and co literally destroy Medicham teams with sheer power and speed. The goblin guy is either very inexperienced or he's trolling.

 

[bludz]

Don't feed the troll guys.

Thoughts on regular Gyarados dropping? I don't find it to be a more threatening DDer than Dragonite most of the time.

 

[Analytic]

B- < B

Alright I don't even know why this thing is ranked so low. AV Metagross is so good right now, it's not even funny. I've been experimenting with this for ages now. This pokemon is great at offering role compression, and I think that it's a very reliable on HO teams that are built around stuff like M-Manectric+Ground-type breaker+Pursuit-trapper. I think that the weakness to switch into Fairy-types on HO teams plus the need to support a pokemon through Pursuit trapping (le: M-Manectric) can all be compressed and done through AV Metagross. This is a major void that it fills on HO teams, and compared to ScarfRachi(Let's be realistic, Rachi cannot take more than 2 Dracos+Rough Skin from Garchomp or chip damage from hazards make it very easy to wear down) I think Metagross does a better job at checking the likes of Lati twins and Fairy-types because it can Pursuit them and inflict chip damage/net a kill on the aforementioned pokemon. So yeah, Metagross to B for me.

Gyara dropping solely on the merit of its viability of its DD set is kinda unfair imo. Don't forget that it can run a very potent SpDef set to check the likes of ZardY, Keldeo, and Manaphy. Its access to utility in Dragon Tail+it's very decent natural bulk and Intimidate make for a mon that deserves to stay in B+.

 

[Random Passerby]

Agree with Gyarados dropping. With FatChomp still around, this thing quickly gets whittled into KO range of a lot of random revenge killers such as Talonflame. The rise in popularity of Mega Manectric, Kyurem-B, Serperior, Tornadus-T and Mega Aerodactyl also hurts it as they force Gyarados out before a DD or threatening to outspeed Gyara even after a dance. The lack of boosting Item also means it is not that offensively strong and can get status-ed in return by random stuff like Clefable who survives the attack.

 

[AM]

Dont drop gyara, meta in B is fine but lets let the boner for it die down and have people stop leaving latios in on the obvious meta switch in before throwing it up in B+. chesnaught i think is pretty bad, i think its time to consider a legit drop for sharpedo, are we done hyping togekiss so it can drop to a more appropriate B rank now?

 

[SketchUp]

About other discussion points: Torn-T and Metagross both shouldn't rise.
AV Tornadus-T is one of those pokemon that is really annoying to face and can be a pain to take down, but it isn't the biggest threat itself. Some posts here really overrate its defensive capabilities, but it's only a good soft-counter to Serperior, Gengar, Mega Venusaur and Regular Alakazam. It has the longetivity with Regenerator and combined with AV it can be pretty though to wear down but Scald burns, Stealth Rock weakness et cetera do the job just fine in the long run. If AV Torn-T doesn't spam Knock Off or U-Turn because he knows Hurricane will miss, he prays that Hurricane will hit and confuse because without the confusion it can't break through stuff like Clefable and Gliscor. After you are being called a hax noob because you just hit Hurricane, confused the opponent and let it hit itself in confuson, you still have to hit the next Hurricane to break through some of the most common and dominating pokemon in the metagame. Just showing how 'big' of a threat AV Tornadus-T is.
I have to admit that Life Orb is pretty underrated. LO Torn-T is fast, has the coverage and doesn't have too much issue with the LO recoil. Not the set that will make Torn-T S rank either (by far) because it really has to predict to get a free switchin because rock weakness + loss of av makes it less bulky then you expect (for example Gengar OHKO's after rocks) It's hard to counter (also don't exaggerate this) but so are your other fast wallbreakers like PuP Lopunny, SD Weavile, LO Alakazam and Talonflame. The metagame is filled with counterplay to both LO and AV Torn-T. Definitely not S rank.
Metagross is a nice mon and a good Pursuit trapper but just because something does its job fine doesn't mean it has to jump up a subrank every 3 weeks. Looking at its negative points, which are so obvious that I won't list them, I really don't see a reason why this pokemon should be B+

 

[Deleted User 268985]

Metagross always does work for me. His pursuit is weak but his typing, bulk, and movepool make up for it. Meteor mash/bullet punch/pursuit lets you do your fairy killing and trapping, and then you can choose between zen headbutt for Keldeo/MVenu and earthquake for Magnezone. That's a lot of threats you can cover with 1 mon, and those threats all happen to be very annoying for offensive teams to deal with. He's only deadweight against stall teams that can take his relatively weak hits and heal them off, but stall is pretty shit right now anyway.

I fully support Metagross to B.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Metagross is high enough in B- tbh, all the things it does justify it for that rank.

Anyway, I did this a while back but I'm gonna try to nominate Nidoqueen for a higher rank, C or C+, whatever. This thing isn't worse than 'King if you ask me, it just trades speed for bulk. Since it can afford to use a Modest nature, its bulky attacker sets hit just as hard as Nidoking, and the higher bulk lets it survive attacks such as Hippo's EQ after rocks and gives it increased survability against fairies, letting it switch into Clefable and Sylveon multiple times during a match. This also lets it set up Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes far easier than King, while punishing Excadrill and Starmie switch-ins with Earth Power or Sludge Wave.

Nidoqueen can also run defensively-inclined sets, which use a high amount of physical bulk to check threats such as Mega Lop, Tyranitar and Terrakion, set up SR, while also checking setup sweepers like Charizard X with Dragon Tail (+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 304-358 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery). You can even use the standard UU set for this, it's still very good at sponging Close Combats and Stone Edges.

 

[Gareth de Voir]

Dropping by to see a good discussion going on? Sign me up.

Gardevoir A -> A+
Still a little torn on this, but I think MGard should stay where it is for now. It still puts in work in being one of the best Fairies of OU but some things still hold it back from A+. The rise of AV Metagross isn't helping (pretty sure WoW as a move option for it decreased in usage over time), and neither does the splashability and overall consistency of the other A+ ranks as a whole. I'm seeing Altaria and/or Clefable as slightly better Fairies for a reason since they play well against almost all playstyles; Gardevoir can find it hard to play against faster offense but pulling an attack off is super rewarding.
Volcarona A- -> B+
I think it needs to drop. The reputation it has for "6-0ing teams" isn't so rewarding when setting up it a little difficult; Flame Body and its okay-ish bulk can only do so much. Also, Talonflame, Heatran and other checks are still as prominent. Its slight 4MSS, 4x SR weakness as well as having split decisions on items (LO (haha what), Lum/Passho Berry have their own justifiable niches) is hindering it. It's still rewarding to successfully pull off a Volca sweep though.
Diggersby B+ -> B
On the fence for this atm. Its ridiculous power (one-shots a lot of Pokemon after a single SD boost) and nice-ish coverage are held by the the strain of constantly setting up since it has low Speed and passable bulk (it lives some Elec-types' HP Ice once from full though so that's a good thing). I'm all up for this staying but the likes of Breloom getting good sets me back.

Scolipede B -> B-
I'd like a drop on this. Its primary role rn is either a HO Spikes lead and a LO variant, which pale in comparison to other nicer leads such as Skarmory or Garchomp and LO attackers such as Gengar. MSableye staying isn't helping, its weakness to Talonflame (which negate its Speed Boosts) and SR isn't doing any favors, and sadly, it doesn't set up the superior SR (not to mention it's crippled a lot by Burns and Para). Passing boosts may be good but it really has a lot of things holding it back.
Zapdos B -> B-
Thundurus-Therian B- -> C+
Cobalion C+ -> B-
Cresselia C- -> C
I'm sorry but I'm not having a say on them since I haven't gotten any experience on them enough.

Mega Aggron C- -> C
I've been using this lately and my this thing is a good glue on offense (quoting KidMagic on this) due to this ridiculous amounts of things it can check (the list is as astronomical as its bulk haha jk). Its ability to lay in SR consistently, run TWave to para dangerous threats like Medicham (Agg can eat an Adamant HJK from full if it needs to lmao) and Talonflame, run luring moves like Avalance/Ice Punch for Grounds and Grasses and Fire Punch/Earthquake for opposing Steels all are so good as a role compression mon. Sadly, it checks a lot of things but no recovery for this mon is upsetting, as well as taking the Mega slot. Fattank is kinda fun though.

As for recent talks (Torn-T, AV Metagross, Sharpedo and Toge drop), here's what I can say. Torn-T (hope I'm not too late for the discussion) should stay A+ because of aforementioned reasons (main damage missing 30% of the time, slightly overrated bulk and susceptibility to faster 'mons like Lopunny and Weavile.) AV Metagross' insane role compression is very nice right now so I think it can raise higher. Sharpedo's drop (both formes) as something I can attest to because of priority moves like BB and Mach Punch killing its momentum, prominence of checks like Breloom and MAlt, susceptibility to all status and hazards and realistically only having one chance at a sweep. I'm still torn on Toge but I think it should stay where it is for now.

That's all. I'm not the best of players but there's my opinions on recent discussions.

 

[Kav]

you cant really compare the recovery thing because tankchomp and lando, especially with helmets, exert pressure just by being alive. Garchomp dishes 30% just for taking a hit which adds risk to things like weak prioriry such as fake out. Landos intimidate lets him ease double switches and cause problems for mons even if they have coverage for him. aggrons lack of recovery is a bigger problem than it is for them because his utility doesnt extend beyond his walling capabilities and attacks, so if he doesnt immediately threaten the mon hes switching into then hes not pressuring anything.

 

[bludz]

That said Aggron is basically impossible to one shot with a physical move. Even Medicham fails to OHKO which is kind of ridiculous. Sure it can be worn down fairly easily but it sets up Rocks on a ton of the tier and can spread Paralysis very well. It also has pretty solid coverage options to choose from meaning it can support the build by tailoring the set which is pretty important.

I've used Mega Aggron a bit this last month and I am inclined to agree with Albacore's nomination for it to rise to C. I don't think it's as bad as Camerupt and I certainly don't think it's worse than Absol or Banette but that might speak to them being in a position to drop.

Edit: in terms of metagame trends I guess popularity of Weavile is pretty big and it also walls Metagross which is really good right now even if its not being used much. It also is a good answer to Clefable which may just be the best mon in the tier

 

[AM]

That said Aggron is basically impossible to one shot with a physical move. Even Medicham fails to OHKO which is kind of ridiculous. Sure it can be worn down fairly easily but it sets up Rocks on a ton of the tier and can spread Paralysis very well. It also has pretty solid coverage options to choose from meaning it can support the build by tailoring the set which is pretty important.

I've used Mega Aggron a bit this last month and I am inclined to agree with Albacore's nomination for it to rise to C. I don't think it's as bad as Camerupt and I certainly don't think it's worse than Absol or Banette but that might speak to them being in a position to drop.

Edit: in terms of metagame trends I guess popularity of Weavile is pretty big and it also walls Metagross which is really good right now even if its not being used much. It also is a good answer to Clefable which may just be the best mon in the tier

rather drop than rise cause aggron really hasnt gotten better, mcam is super bad and niche, banette i think is ok but niche so can drop based in that, no comment on absol i think its bad but people say its mixed sets are better.