Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[DoABarrelRoll]

Yea that's almost like all the shit that runs Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Hydro Pump etc. Let's drop everything that uses moves with 85 or less accuracy because it must be a gamble when the probability is in your favour to hit and if your opponent is at the point where their most justifiable play is staying in vs something that beats them then they're either bad / on the ropes. I've literally never seen an argument for Gengar where it says it shouldn't rise because it's most effective coverage is unreliable, or Starmie or Rotom etc. You don't ever play vs Torn thinking shit like it's already hit one Hurricane so it's missing the next because probability just doesn't work like that lol. You have to assume perfect conditions then make the best of what you get. I also find it kinda weird that in every post about Hurricane being inaccurate that not one of them acknowledges the other 30% chance to put the opponent under further pressure whereas I'm p sure the effectiveness of Scald in that regard affects some Water types placement. Funny that!

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Not gonna say anything about that ridiculous hyperbole...

Also do you notice that all three S rank mons use reliable attacks? Zard X uses Dragon Claw, Flare Blitz and Earthquake, which are all 100% accurate moves with no drawbacks besides Flare Blitz. Clefable has Moonblast and a bunch of other coverage moves, which are all 100% acc, besides Focus Miss, which is a thing of the past. TWave is a 100% acc move too. Mega Sab only has a bit of trouble with WoW and its 85% acc but other than that it has reliable moves in Knock Off, Shadow Ball and the much less common Dark Pulse.

On the other hand, throwing Hurricanes, Heat Waves, Focus Blasts (though honestly FB torn-t sucks) and Iron Tails can and will backfire when you're about to reach the top of the ladder, when you're about to win the tourney, and often make you break your keyboard and stuff. But seriously, they are imprecise attacks, which means they aren't reliable in the long run.

Believe it or not but the accuracy of your moves plays a big factor in the long run because reliability is one of the main characteristics of a metagame-defining Pokemon (the S rank mons).

I also find it kinda weird that in every post about Hurricane being inaccurate that not one of them acknowledges the other 30% chance to put the opponent under further pressure whereas I'm p sure the effectiveness of Scald in that regard affects some Water types placement. Funny that!

Yet Weavile probably wouldn't mind it if Icicle Crash's flinch rate did not exist because it still isn't beating Clefable reliably and other stuff. It'd still be A+ in my opinion, for all the goodies it brings. You also forget that Hurricane's 30% chance of confusion is about 22% de facto and the probability of the target actually hitting itself is only 11%. Switching out also solves the problem, unlike with Scald. Scald has a 30% chance to burn no matter what. Please don't compare the two situations.

Torn-T should stay A+

 

[Martin]

the current S ranks' placements has nothing to do with the accuracy of their moves, but rather the exact same reasons that Torn is being nommed up in the first place... seriously you are blowing this out of proportion because all that should matter here is the effect that it has on the mindset of its opponent and just how f*cking difficult it is to switch into. Its incredibly versatile and hard to prepare for due to its bajillion different options, and the characteristics that it has are shared by literally everything in S. Honestly, the accuracy issue is minor at best and honestly the only reason that I think that anyone has this thing where they think that Hurricane is worth an entire drop in sub-rank is because they only remember when it misses. Seriously, you are talking as if Hurricane's accuracy defines this pokemon when in reality the size of the issue more equivalent to a single bean in a can (i.e. not much in the great scheme of things) and, while a minor setback, is outweighed hugely by the countless positive traits that make it an S-worthy threat.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

How is this only a minor issue??? (I'm trying not to overreact lol) I mean I want to win a battle, no?

It's obvious Torn-T is an A+ threat that everyone should prepare for. No matter if Torn-T ends up going in S rank or it stays A+, it's a huge threat everyone should prepare for.

But to win a match, you need your moves NOT TO MISS! I've heard some arguments saying Torn-T sometimes benefits from Hurricane missing as in gaining momentum... but well... you can just use Knock Off for free damage while still maintaining it most of the time, due to Torn-T's blazing speed. But where was I getting to? Oh yeah, Hurrimiss's accuracy. Truth is, it DOES matter... I mean imagine if Gengar/Alakazam/Keldeo had Aura Sphere (yes Specs Keldeo w/ Focus Miss is a thing)... this is what I call the Tornadus-T syndrome, having to rely on low accuracy moves just to try and hit your own targets, because you're obviously not U-turning and using Knock Off all day for a little bit of free damage while trying to outlast your counters...

Seriously, I had this game today where I had an Avalugg (just for fun ok?) and Torn-T vs Specs Keldeo + Lando-T, and tried to bait in Keldeo with Avalugg only to go to Torn... twice. Hurricane missed GODDAMN 4 TIMES in that match, and ultimately made me lose it. This isn't something that should define a S rank mon. Hurricane missing twice is quite common in practice and even missing three times in a row isn't unheard of.

No matter how hard Torn-T may be to switch into, the Torn-T user really has to take the miss into account, especially since Torn-T isn't really a nuke and won't achieve the same number of OHKOs Specs Keldeo or Band Azu may get. Roost Latias switching in into a Hurricane miss kills your momentum, for example. There's also stuff like Rotom-W which offense teams really want weakened as early as possible. LO Torn-T also lacks power to break through walls like Clefable, Suicune or Porygon2.

AV Torn-T also has the problem of not hitting hard enough... it doesn't have enough oomph to prevent even something as bulky as Clefable to switch in and simply Thunder Wave you or set up free Calm Mind boosts. It doesn't OHKO Celebi, it doesn't OHKO Amoonguss, it doesn't OHKO Mega Venu, and all of them can retaliate back via a sleep move or Thunder Wave. Paralysis and sleep render Torn-T virtually useless... U-turning out means all of them can simply use Recover or something. Serp (and Mega Scep) is like the only one Torn-T OHKOes.

 

[Kyuzeth]

How is this only a minor issue??? (I'm trying not to overreact lol) I mean I want to win a battle, no?

AV Torn-T also has the problem of not hitting hard enough... it doesn't have enough oomph to prevent even something as bulky as Clefable to switch in and simply Thunder Wave you or set up free Calm Mind boosts. It doesn't OHKO Celebi, it doesn't OHKO Amoonguss, it doesn't OHKO Mega Venu, and all of them can retaliate back via a sleep move or Thunder Wave. Paralysis and sleep render Torn-T virtually useless... U-turning out means all of them can simply use Recover or something. Serp (and Mega Scep) is like the only one Torn-T OHKOes.

As stated, the issue is only minor because it's eclipsed by the many positives Tornadus-T offers, which have all been explained in previous posts.

Uh... AV Torn-T is a pivot, right? Pivots and scouts don't need to OHKO the entire metagame to be effective. That's not what they are meant to accomplish on a team. It almost sounds like you're expecting Torn-T to be a pivot and sweeper at once, which simply isn't possible. As a pivot, Tornadus-T has some fantastic assets, namely its mono Flying-type granting it offensive and defensive perks, Regenerator working miraculously with U-turn in making this thing a pain in the ass to bring down because it just switches out and recovers a third of its health, a STAB that, while inaccurate, can inflict confusion, and a great coverage option in Knock Off to disrupt enemy Pokémon.

On top of that, Tornadus-T is definitely capable of running an offensive set with Life Orb, be it mixed or purely special. The offensive set can run Taunt as an added bonus to shit all over Stall teams and keep up the disruption with Knock Off. It's still fucking annoying to take down, as Regenerator recovers any HP lost through Life Orb recoil.

Despite its main STAB not being the most consistent thing, many other traits of Tornadus-T's are. It deserves to be S.

 

[Martin]

I never said its accuracy doesn't matter, but honestly you are overstating the effect that it has. Quite frankly the fact that you are calling it Hurrimiss is suggesting that you have fallen into the trap of only remembering the games where it missed, and honestly the kind of matches like you used as an example just then are such uncommon occurrences that it is just silly to try and use it as justification - not to mention that, if you were to show me the game now, I am around 70-80% certain that I would say that a pre-considered plan B would have turned it around in every situation. Risk control is part of the game, and honestly accounting for them is what you should be doing at all points. If Hurricane misses, you just resort to plan B. This is why I find accuracy to be super shaky grounds for justification, and what you have been saying is extremely blowing the issue out of proportion. I could understand if the only moves it had were Hypnosis-level accurate, but Hurricane isn't and 70% it is not inaccurate enough to pose as something to get majorly concerned about. Hell, 70% is accurate in my book on the basis that, in theory, 7/10 of them will hit. Not to mention that this is just on the basis of one move, when realistically speaking the overall reliability of a mon has very little to do with its accuracy and more to do with how consistently it achieves its goal. Both of its sets consistently achieve Torn's overall goal (wallbreaker/special nuke and utility mon for LO, pivot that can be used repeatedly with very little backlash for AV), and this combined with all of its other positive traits are what push it to S levels of viability.

 

[0besity]

Hurricane's shaky accuracy isn't enough to prevent Tornadus-T from rising. It doesn't prevent it from doing its job as an offensive pivot/wallbreaker. The other S-ranks have their own issues which don't prevent them from achieving their job. One example would be Char-X's SR weakness. If Mega Charizard X requires some hazard support, I don't see how Tornadus-T's accuracy issues would prevent it from rising.
(Overall, I'm pretty neutral on the rise, since I don't use Torn-T much.)

 

[Me and ur mom]

How is this only a minor issue??? (I'm trying not to overreact lol) I mean I want to win a battle, no?

It's obvious Torn-T is an A+ threat that everyone should prepare for. No matter if Torn-T ends up going in S rank or it stays A+, it's a huge threat everyone should prepare for.

But to win a match, you need your moves NOT TO MISS! I've heard some arguments saying Torn-T sometimes benefits from Hurricane missing as in gaining momentum... but well... you can just use Knock Off for free damage while still maintaining it most of the time, due to Torn-T's blazing speed. But where was I getting to? Oh yeah, Hurrimiss's accuracy. Truth is, it DOES matter... I mean imagine if Gengar/Alakazam/Keldeo had Aura Sphere (yes Specs Keldeo w/ Focus Miss is a thing)... this is what I call the Tornadus-T syndrome, having to rely on low accuracy moves just to try and hit your own targets, because you're obviously not U-turning and using Knock Off all day for a little bit of free damage while trying to outlast your counters...

Seriously, I had this game today where I had an Avalugg (just for fun ok?) and Torn-T vs Specs Keldeo + Lando-T, and tried to bait in Keldeo with Avalugg only to go to Torn... twice. Hurricane missed GODDAMN 4 TIMES in that match, and ultimately made me lose it. This isn't something that should define a S rank mon. Hurricane missing twice is quite common in practice and even missing three times in a row isn't unheard of.

No matter how hard Torn-T may be to switch into, the Torn-T user really has to take the miss into account, especially since Torn-T isn't really a nuke and won't achieve the same number of OHKOs Specs Keldeo or Band Azu may get. Roost Latias switching in into a Hurricane miss kills your momentum, for example. There's also stuff like Rotom-W which offense teams really want weakened as early as possible. LO Torn-T also lacks power to break through walls like Clefable, Suicune or Porygon2.

AV Torn-T also has the problem of not hitting hard enough... it doesn't have enough oomph to prevent even something as bulky as Clefable to switch in and simply Thunder Wave you or set up free Calm Mind boosts. It doesn't OHKO Celebi, it doesn't OHKO Amoonguss, it doesn't OHKO Mega Venu, and all of them can retaliate back via a sleep move or Thunder Wave. Paralysis and sleep render Torn-T virtually useless... U-turning out means all of them can simply use Recover or something. Serp (and Mega Scep) is like the only one Torn-T OHKOes.

Dont have a strong opinion on the matter but some of your points didn't make sense. First of all, porygon 2 isn't relevant in OU at all besides the extremely rare TR team,celebi isn't that common, not all of them carry thunder wave and after a bit of chip damage it dies to hurricane so... About sleep power venusaur that set isn't relevant at all and shouldn't be considered when talking about downfalls of this mon.

 

[Ramses]

why tf is hurricane missing even a relevant issue when shit like gengar, alakazam, and mega garde have to use focus blast, starmie and keldeo use hydro pump, heatran uses magma storm, etc. why is this only being applied to torn-t? i hear all these noms like "ooohh shit mega garde / zam / w.e is fucking cash fam, move that shit up" but nobody gives the slightest damn about them having to rely on Focus Blast, HPump, or Fblast to get their jobs done

How is this only a minor issue??? (I'm trying not to overreact lol) I mean I want to win a battle, no?
No matter how hard Torn-T may be to switch into, the Torn-T user really has to take the miss into account, especially since Torn-T isn't really a nuke and won't achieve the same number of OHKOs Specs Keldeo or Band Azu may get. Roost Latias switching in into a Hurricane miss kills your momentum, for example. There's also stuff like Rotom-W which offense teams really want weakened as early as possible. LO Torn-T also lacks power to break through walls like Clefable, Suicune or Porygon2.

AV Torn-T also has the problem of not hitting hard enough... it doesn't have enough oomph to prevent even something as bulky as Clefable to switch in and simply Thunder Wave you or set up free Calm Mind boosts. It doesn't OHKO Celebi, it doesn't OHKO Amoonguss, it doesn't OHKO Mega Venu, and all of them can retaliate back via a sleep move or Thunder Wave. Paralysis and sleep render Torn-T virtually useless... U-turning out means all of them can simply use Recover or something. Serp (and Mega Scep) is like the only one Torn-T OHKOes.

first off porygon2 is ass right now and will possibly always be for quite some time. please tell me how it lacks power to break suicune when it has grass knot which 2hkoes it? tell me how easy it'll be for clefable to soak up that hurricane when its lefties get knocked off? and for the av torn part what in the blue water hell did you expect? for it to ohko the entire metagame itself? its not banded hoopa-u lol. av torn's job is to pivot around and circumvent issues with shit like keldeo and mega alakazam WHILE still providing support that only torn-t can even bring into a match. the thing with tornadus is that its near impossible to get a good switch-in on it unless you actually know what its even running. this can't be stressed enough. a tornadus-t that isn't scouted is the most scariest thing to face even if its packing hurricane. a lot of this argument against it is all "hurricane misses, not like dclaw or moonblast on charX and Fable" yeah true but the part you're missing is the "what if it does hit" part. one of your mons is totally crippled by the power behind it and can probably be picked off by one of its coverage moves. its that simple and easy to use as well as threatening as ever that is should easily be an S Rank mon no problem, but until people can get past the mindset that hurricane missing only applies to torn-t, well shit it'll just go around in circles and you're the only 1 here who disagrees

 

[Gary]

Torn-T should go conclusion reached (in A+) at this point imo. An S rank Pokemon needs to be reliable, which Torn-T just isn't. You're literally gambling whenever you need to 2HKO or OHKO something. A Pokemon which needs to rely on a 70% accuracy move just to OHKO what it needs to OHKO, and a 49% chance to 2HKO what it needs to 2HKO, should not under any circumstances go to S.

Yeah lets just go ahead and throw a Pokemon in conclusion reached just because you're literally one of like 3 people who doesn't think Torn-T is S rank at this point. Accuracy can't really be used as a solid argument against a Pokemon going to S just because by your definition "A Pokemon can't be S rank if it has to rely on an inaccurate move". That's complete bullshit lol. Besides, Torn-T isn't just S rank from Hurricane alone, as many have already stated before, Torn-T's amazing versatility, usefulness, and just how it's so damn easy to slap on most offensive or bulky offensive builds. While obviously without Hurricane, Torn-T wouldn't be as threatening, just having access to a powerful STAB move that hits most of the metagame very hard, on top of the fact that it has coverage for most of Hurricane's switch-ins and how with just a simple change of a move it can practically pick and choose what can switch into it/check it reliably.

Just the sheer fact that people think Torn-T isn't on par with the other S rank mons simply because of a semi unreliable STAB move is so stupid to me, especially when it has so much more going for it that easily sets it apart from practically all the shit in A+ rank. Besides, it's not like Torn-T is the only Pokemon in existence that has to rely on a shaky accuracy move, and tbh, Torn-T has much more redeeming qualities than those other mons anyway, which is why it's so obviously S to me.

 

[Ajwf]

Dont have a strong opinion on the matter but some of your points didn't make sense. First of all, porygon 2 isn't relevant in OU at all besides the extremely rare TR team,celebi isn't that common, not all of them carry thunder wave and after a bit of chip damage it dies to hurricane so... About sleep power venusaur that set isn't relevant at all and shouldn't be considered when talking about downfalls of this mon.

More importantly, by DoABarrellRole's Logic, nothing under 100% accuracy should even be considered.

But also,

Seriously, I had this game today where I had an Avalugg (just for fun ok?) and Torn-T vs Specs Keldeo + Lando-T, and tried to bait in Keldeo with Avalugg only to go to Torn... twice. Hurricane missed GODDAMN 4 TIMES in that match, and ultimately made me lose it. This isn't something that should define a S rank mon. Hurricane missing twice is quite common in practice and even missing three times in a row isn't unheard of.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal (We all can play this game)

The chances of such a case happening is .81%. Yeah shit happens but if we want to talk about poor arguments, this is up there. .81% of the time I can crit hoopa to death and win against it with a stall team because my opponent was stupid and even took a risk, must mean I'm prepared for it.

The argument of 'it can miss' is just ridiculous in this context because sure, it CAN miss, 30% chance that it happens. However, Even taking into context how much power hurricane has in a sustained circumstance because of this, it's still a 77 base power flying type move (not including stab) over a long stretch of turns with varied hit/miss at percentage taken into account. Even then, the pressure to the fact that it can miss isn't something a defender is looking at going "Yeah I'm banking on the 30% chance it doesn't hit" unless they absolutely have to. The pressure given by the chance of hitting is much higher (on your opponent) than the pressure given by the chance of missing (on you). The defender is not looking at Tornadus-T going "thank god that hurricane is about to miss, let me bring in my grass/fight/bug type". The pressure the 110 BP move has without being used is enough to circumvent many situations where the miss could be relevant.

And while we focus so much on Hurricane you miss the point that it has three other moves that can screw your day and you have no idea what they are until they're used. 100% acc super power, knock off, U-turn, taunt, 90% acc Heat Wave, or one of the other more niche coverage tools he has specific to team. It's a massive offensive move pool and with Torn's versatile stats, S-tier ability and 120 speed tier, makes him excellent at multiple roles. Be it tauntBreaking stall, revenge killing or cleaning as well as pivoting, he's probably got as many different roles as Clefable.

Honestly, I get the feeling you have no idea what Tornadus does. When talking about it as a nuke or in the same boat as Azumaril or Specs Keldeo without noting the distinct differences between the three, you're dragging this discussion out of context for what Tornadus-T actually does.

 

[Alfalfa]

How is this only a minor issue??? (I'm trying not to overreact lol) I mean I want to win a battle, no?

It's obvious Torn-T is an A+ threat that everyone should prepare for. No matter if Torn-T ends up going in S rank or it stays A+, it's a huge threat everyone should prepare for.

But to win a match, you need your moves NOT TO MISS! I've heard some arguments saying Torn-T sometimes benefits from Hurricane missing as in gaining momentum... but well... you can just use Knock Off for free damage while still maintaining it most of the time, due to Torn-T's blazing speed. But where was I getting to? Oh yeah, Hurrimiss's accuracy. Truth is, it DOES matter... I mean imagine if Gengar/Alakazam/Keldeo had Aura Sphere (yes Specs Keldeo w/ Focus Miss is a thing)... this is what I call the Tornadus-T syndrome, having to rely on low accuracy moves just to try and hit your own targets, because you're obviously not U-turning and using Knock Off all day for a little bit of free damage while trying to outlast your counters...

Seriously, I had this game today where I had an Avalugg (just for fun ok?) and Torn-T vs Specs Keldeo + Lando-T, and tried to bait in Keldeo with Avalugg only to go to Torn... twice. Hurricane missed GODDAMN 4 TIMES in that match, and ultimately made me lose it. This isn't something that should define a S rank mon. Hurricane missing twice is quite common in practice and even missing three times in a row isn't unheard of.

No matter how hard Torn-T may be to switch into, the Torn-T user really has to take the miss into account, especially since Torn-T isn't really a nuke and won't achieve the same number of OHKOs Specs Keldeo or Band Azu may get. Roost Latias switching in into a Hurricane miss kills your momentum, for example. There's also stuff like Rotom-W which offense teams really want weakened as early as possible. LO Torn-T also lacks power to break through walls like Clefable, Suicune or Porygon2.

AV Torn-T also has the problem of not hitting hard enough... it doesn't have enough oomph to prevent even something as bulky as Clefable to switch in and simply Thunder Wave you or set up free Calm Mind boosts. It doesn't OHKO Celebi, it doesn't OHKO Amoonguss, it doesn't OHKO Mega Venu, and all of them can retaliate back via a sleep move or Thunder Wave. Paralysis and sleep render Torn-T virtually useless... U-turning out means all of them can simply use Recover or something. Serp (and Mega Scep) is like the only one Torn-T OHKOes.

You'd hate GSC man, where not taking any form of risk with accuracy whatsoever is literal suicide

In all reality, Assault Vest Tornadus-T is not a wallbreaker; it is not supposed to hit hard. It is only supposed to hit hard enough to force the mons it checks out, which it does sufficient enough to be a usable set. I honestly have no opinion of Torn-T since I have only probably used it about once, but you still continue to act as though you do not even know how common Pokemon are supposed to work.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Again you guys are bringing up Grass Knot Tornadus-T which frankly sucks outside of hitting like 2 targets... if you have trouble with Hippo just build better for it, don't rely on Torn-T who can eat a Stone Edge (yes its viable) to the face.

I'm like one of the 3 people? In terms of posting yes, but there are many more who don't bother posting and think Torn-T is fine in A+, same for those who want to bring it up to S... so that's not a good argument, I'm afraid.

I thought S rank defines Pokemon who are reliable in most aspects. I won't deny that Torn-T is awesome. Torn-T is a very reliable pivot, it's VERY good at outlasting its counters, it's a VERY good wallbreaker, it's a good scout and brings great support to the table. All these qualities make it an A+ Pokemon in my eyes. However, S rank means a literal metagame staple, something that can support the team to the point where it always contributes to a battle. If Hurricane was 100% accurate, or even 80%, I would agree with Torn-T going to S. But 70%? That's a bit ridiculous. Even Hurricane missing once in a game can turn the tide of a battle. That Keldeo who you expect to OHKO avoids the Hurrimiss and sets up a Calm Mind or goes for a Specs Scald which really hurts. That Celebi who you're trying to prevent from Baton Passing a SD boost has just avoided the attack and passes to something like Mega Lopunny or Weavile, which means you're in trouble.

LO Torn-T... I have some problems with its power because while Hurricane is extremely intimidating, it has problems 2HKOing stuff Torn is supposed to beat, even disregarding accuracy. Stuff like Suicune for example isn't 2HKOed easily, considering it is one of those mons you DON'T want to let it get going. Again Clefable at full health can use Torn-T as setup fodder (unless it has the gimmicky Iron Tail) since it isn't 2HKOed by anything.

The difference between Gengar/Alakazam using Focus Blast and Torn-T's Hurricane is pretty damn obvious. Hurricane is Torn-T's goddamn STAB move.

I know what Torn-T does, lol. Maybe I expect too much out of it?

 

[Machi]

Again you guys are bringing up Grass Knot Tornadus-T which frankly sucks outside of hitting like 2 targets... if you have trouble with Hippo just build better for it, don't rely on Torn-T who can eat a Stone Edge (yes its viable) to the face. Maybe I expect too much out of it?

I think you honestly do expect too much out of it, or expect something different altogether. You're looking more at a sweeper or late game cleaner rather than a pivot meant to disrupt and regain momentum on your end.

As for any coverage move, the point is that it lures would be checks/counters that your team more often than not needs removing and its necessity changes according to how relevant those targets are, they may be 2 for instance but if you heavily depend on say MManetric it's not hard to see why it would be vital to be rid of those targets etc. Which in itself is a lot better than most pivots can boast.

Either way the problem with relying too much on Hurricane is that I think you're expecting a late game sweeper/cleaner rather than a pivot. Again if it had more accuracy with its STAB safe to say we'd be looking less at its ability to pivot in and out since it would be staying in more often than not and wrecking things left and right. Also helps to recognize that a pivot doesn't exactly define a metagame in the same way a sweeper does. Try recalling Lando-T when its scarf set pushed it at one point to the S-rank of the viability. We weren't looking at its ability to outright clean games.

 

[Alfalfa]

LO Torn-T... I have some problems with its power because while Hurricane is extremely intimidating, it has problems 2HKOing stuff Torn is supposed to beat, even disregarding accuracy. Stuff like Suicune for example isn't 2HKOed easily, considering it is one of those mons you DON'T want to let it get going. Again Clefable at full health can use Torn-T as setup fodder (unless it has the gimmicky Iron Tail) since it isn't 2HKOed by anything.

I know what Torn-T does, lol. Maybe I expect too much out of it?

Suicune is a pretty bulky Pokemon, and not being able to 2HKO it is not something specific to Torn-T. LO Kyurem-B (20 Atk / 252 SpA / 236 Spe Mild is standard) does not even get a guaranteed 2HKO on Crocune with Fusion Bolt without hazards, just to show you how bulky it is. Life Orb Mamoswine can't 2HKO it (even with Adamant Nature), and Banded Hoopa-U needs hazards in order to 2HKO with Hyperspace Fury (talking about speed-boosting nature Hoopa-U because aside from Hippowdon Banded Hoopa-U breaks through everything).

 

[p2]

if you're really questioning the viability of specific coverage moves which are actually good, i think you should give your case up because it just directly shows a lack of experience playing with and against torn.

LOL GRASS KNOT IS GOOD. im done responding.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I think you honestly do expect too much out of it. As for any coverage move, the point is that it lures would be checks/counters that your team more often than not needs removing and its necessity changes according to how relevant those targets are, they may be 2 for instance but if you heavily depend on say MManetric it's not hard to see why it would be vital to be rid of those targets etc. Which in itself is a lot better than most pivots can boast.

Either way the problem with relying too much on Hurricane is that I think you're expecting a late game sweeper/cleaner rather than a pivot. Again if it had more accuracy with its STAB safe to say we'd be looking less at its ability to pivot in and out since it would be staying in more often than not and wrecking things left and right. Also helps to recognize that a pivot doesn't exactly define a metagame in the same way a sweeper does.

I think it's funny how people are using Grass Knot Torn-T to hit Hippo... and you know why? Because of Hurricane's accuracy.

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 222-263 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm aware of Torn-T's good luring capability, but that isn't unique to it, as many other pivots can do that (think Jirachi, AV Tangrowth, and the less common AV Goodra). I know that AV Torn-T isn't supposed to use Hurricane all the time, since it's job is not to do that... but it checks stuff like Keldeo and bulky grasses, which is a secondary job. And at that secondary job, Torn-T isn't reliable due to Hurricane's accuracy. A S-ranked mon should be able to fit multiple roles effectively and reliably, like CM+TWave Clef, any Mega Sab set, DD, Tailwind+SD or bulky Zard X, Unaware Clef... AV Torn-T just isn't that good. LO variants are for this matter worse at scouting due to low bulk.

Hurricane is one reason why most people click U-turn at almost any given opportunity.

if you're really questioning the viability of specific coverage moves which are actually good, i think you should give your case up because it just directly shows a lack of experience playing with and against torn.

Except Grass Knot Torn-T isn't good, and I'm still firmly against Torn-T moving up.

"LOL GRASS KNOT IS GOOD" is not a good argument, I'm afraid. Hitting Hippo/Suicune somewhat harder and using it solely because of Hurricane's accuracy... no. A good example of a lure move is Sludge Wave, as it actually 2HKOes Clefable at full health, AV Azu and some Togekiss after rocks and OHKOes Mega Altaria after rocks.

 

[AM]

Ok I'm gonna go ahead and do a judgement call of ending this discussion. It hurts to read now, as in legitimate pain hurts to read type of discussion. We'll let the team decide on that in the future thanks.

Read the title of this thread for discussion points to discuss please and focus on those.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

AM Edit: Deleted remark

What do you guys think of Entei raising to B-? This thing seems to be improving in this meta with the fall of Mega Alt's popularity, as well as stuff like Gliscor and even TankChomp taking a small dip in usage. Entei's ability to 1v1 stuff like Clef and Mega Sab is awesome, and with decent coverage moves in Bulldoze for Heatran and Stone Edge for Talonflame, Torn-T and Charizard, CB Entei is fairly hard to switch into. ExtremeSpeed is also a good asset, because it bypasses Talon's BB for example, as well as Azu's Aqua Jet, which allows it to out-prioritize weakened known users of priority moves. CB ExtremeSpeed also has decent late-game cleaning potential.

 

[Subjugator]

AM Edit: Deleted remark

What do you guys think of Entei raising to B-? This thing seems to be improving in this meta with the fall of Mega Alt's popularity, as well as stuff like Gliscor and even TankChomp taking a small dip in usage. Entei's ability to 1v1 stuff like Clef and Mega Sab is awesome, and with decent coverage moves in Bulldoze for Heatran and Stone Edge for Talonflame, Torn-T and Charizard, CB Entei is fairly hard to switch into. ExtremeSpeed is also a good asset, because it bypasses Talon's BB for example, as well as Azu's Aqua Jet, which allows it to out-prioritize weakened known users of priority moves. CB ExtremeSpeed also has decent late-game cleaning potential.

Although I appreciate you having an intelligent discussion, I would have to disagree with you. Entei, while it is hard-hitting and can scare some of the better Pokemon in this meta away, has its flaws. Unlike it's other Fire Brethren in OU such as Talon, Heatran, and Mega Zard, Entei has absolutely miniscule defensive presence and capability, so it will not be able to take hits well. Weakness to all forms of entry hazard damage is never a good thing, and it has a speed tier that could definitely improve. Although on paper it is hard to switch into, in all actuality it is, as any bulky water, Air Balloon Heatran, or Bulky Ground Type will not have much, if any, trouble with Entei. Your argument about Entei outprioritizing Azu is slightly invalid because generally, Azumarill wouldn't really be scared of Entei in the first place. While it's a decent Pokemon, it has its round of flaws, so C+ Rank is good for me.

 

[procrastinat]

Although I appreciate you having an intelligent discussion, I would have to disagree with you. Entei, while it is hard-hitting and can scare some of the better Pokemon in this meta away, has its flaws. Unlike it's other Fire Brethren in OU such as Talon, Heatran, and Mega Zard, Entei has absolutely miniscule defensive presence and capability, so it will not be able to take hits well. Weakness to all forms of entry hazard damage is never a good thing, and it has a speed tier that could definitely improve. Although on paper it is hard to switch into, in all actuality it is, as any bulky water, Air Balloon Heatran, or Bulky Ground Type will not have much, if any, trouble with Entei. Your argument about Entei outprioritizing Azu is slightly invalid because generally, Azumarill wouldn't really be scared of Entei in the first place. While it's a decent Pokemon, it has its round of flaws, so C+ Rank is good for me.

Most bulky grounds and waters actually don't enjoy switching into Entei at all due to Sacred Fire's burn chance, Azumarill, Landorus-T, and Tankchomp (Especially considering Sacred Fire is not a contact move) being especially crippled by burns. While the others aren't completely neutered by burns, they certainly don't enjoy them, as the 12.5% damage per turn makes their jobs much more difficult. Even Gliscor, which you would think would be an excellent switch-in, is straight up 2hko'd when using the Calculator's Physically defensive spread.

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 177-208 (50 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

All of that being said, you did point some very significant flaws, like total hazard weakness, and few defensive applications. There's also the fact that Sacred Fire only has 8 uses, which it leaves it very vulnerable to getting pp stalled. Overall, I'm not sure it should move up, as there would have to be more discussion on how it's better than it was before, and how it's better than what's in C+ or as good as what is in B-.

 

[Giagantic]

Discussion Points and My Stance:
Latios: A+ -> S (Depending on Actions) (Rather then being a discussion towards a specific rank change this conversation is about how we conceptualize "S rank")

As I see it the move for Latios from A+ to S could come to represent a shift in mentality towards the idea of what "S" actually means, by this what I am referring to is the exclusivity of S rank. I personally think that we should do one of the following things:

-keep S rank restricted to a select few Pokemon that have been deemed to be above all else in the meta-game (in this case Latios should be kept at it current rank)

or

-Open the S rank to more Pokemon that stand as top tier existences (in this case Latios should move up to S rank)

In the first instance I think that Latios, Tornadus, and other powerful Pokemon would move to S rank while some of the weaker ones would stay A+ rank. Now to my reasons for opening up the proverbial floodgates, well, you see the way I see it there is only 1 true S rank Pokemon as far as I am concerned (Clefable) whilst both Mega Sab and Mega Zard X have various issues and could be argued to be brought down to A+. By allowing a few more high tier OU Pokemon into S rank it would eliminate some of the, how do I say it, misconceptions in concerns to S rank for I feel that people naturally see this rank as something irrevocably beyond A+. S rank should stand as meta-game defining Pokemon that are both self-sufficient and team-aiding, that their flaws are massively eclipsed by their pros, that the value they naturally have is gargantuan.

I would like to point towards the arguments that have been happening between those that want Tornadus-T to be S rank and those that do not. This is an example of my previously noted "misconception" that S rank is so beyond A+, in this case, Tornadus-T despite all of its admitted boons, is being castrated due to its reliance on Hurricane. This in my opinion is because of how highly regarded S rank is despite the fact that all of the S rated pokemon can be, in many ways argued to be equal to many of those in A+. By opening the gate to S rank a bit more we can normalize the idea of S rank as being the aforementioned "Top Meta-Game Pokemon" rather then remaining as this almost nebulous space beyond A+.

Any further changes to ranks, and so on would be influenced by the opening of said gates to S rank, where shifts such as Mega-Metagross would stay A+ if such a change occurred and if it did not then I personally would move it to A.

 

[Kibblecat]

This 'changing the boundaries of S rank' thing seems a bit convoluted to me. I know I'm oversimplifying a bit but the way I see it, there's an almost clear consensus that Latios isn't quite S rank when considered what mons are up there at the moment and so somewhere along the line people who wanted a rise for Latios decided to bring up the notion of changing how we think of S rank to fit Latios in which is just a cop out. Like if the unspoken definition of D rank changed to accommodate a potential reason to use Spinda in OU we could rank Spinda...

What I'm saying is that nobody has shown convincingly that Latios is S rank alongside the current S rankers, and nobody has given a good reason to change the unspoken boundaries of S rank to put Latios up there... You can't change the thought process of a ranking for a single nom because that makes every other ranking placement less meaningful and ultimately pointless. Nobody's really said anything concrete about what else should move if the requirements of S rank suddenly changed, either.

Like Latios is on the discussion slate, fine, but it needs to be discussed in relation to the current ranking boundaries, not these theoretical shifts in policy. Nowhere is there written down in one official place that "S rank is *this* atm, and it would be *that* if we changed it" so there's no way that people can really be arguing Latios for S rank on the same parameters if they're basing their argument on changing S rank.

I've not got anything more to add on Latios in the meta because I've already made my post on that a couple pages back.

 

[nameless90]

Although I appreciate you having an intelligent discussion, I would have to disagree with you. Entei, while it is hard-hitting and can scare some of the better Pokemon in this meta away, has its flaws. Unlike it's other Fire Brethren in OU such as Talon, Heatran, and Mega Zard, Entei has absolutely miniscule defensive presence and capability, so it will not be able to take hits well. Weakness to all forms of entry hazard damage is never a good thing, and it has a speed tier that could definitely improve. Although on paper it is hard to switch into, in all actuality it is, as any bulky water, Air Balloon Heatran, or Bulky Ground Type will not have much, if any, trouble with Entei. Your argument about Entei outprioritizing Azu is slightly invalid because generally, Azumarill wouldn't really be scared of Entei in the first place. While it's a decent Pokemon, it has its round of flaws, so C+ Rank is good for me.

Agree with all said here and I want to underline the fact that Entei is a very predictable monster due to a horrid movepool (Substitute, Will o Wisp and HP Ice with a Life Orb to lure something is really all this monster has as options). Its borderline Spe tier of 100 is hindered by the fact that Entei HAS to run an Adamant nature to use Extremespeed which is mandatory. Entei can't even run Leftovers or Assault Vest because, if it does, it loses a lot of its attacking power.
===> Entei stays in C+ in my opinion.

Most bulky grounds and waters actually don't enjoy switching into Entei at all due to Sacred Fire's burn chance, Azumarill, Landorus-T, and Tankchomp (Especially considering Sacred Fire is not a contact move) being especially crippled by burns. While the others aren't completely crippled by burns, they certainly don't enfoy them, as the 12.5% damage per turn makes their jobs much more difficult. Even Gliscor, which you would think would be an excellent switch-in, is straight up 2hko'd when using the Calculator's Physically defensive spread.

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 177-208 (50 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal​

All of that being said, you did point some very crippling flaws, like total hazard weakness, and few defensive applications. There's also the fact that Sacred Fire only has 8 uses, which it leaves it very vulnerable to getting pp stalled. Overall, I'm not sure it should move up, as there would have to be more discussion on how it's better than it was before, and how it's better than what's in C+ or as good as what is in B-.

Talking about CB Entei vs Poison Heal Gliscor, I want to underline the fact that if Gliscor doesn't switch-in, it can easily click Roost to stall all the 8 PP of Sacred Fire which is the strongest move Entei can use towards it and ultimately win. If Gliscor runs Protect in place of Acrobatics (I don't really know why this move is shown in the calculator), the situation is even worse for Entei.

 

[Giagantic]

This 'changing the boundaries of S rank' thing seems a bit convoluted to me. I know I'm oversimplifying a bit but the way I see it, there's an almost clear consensus that Latios isn't quite S rank when considered what mons are up there at the moment and so somewhere along the line people who wanted a rise for Latios decided to bring up the notion of changing how we think of S rank to fit Latios in which is just a cop out. Like if the unspoken definition of D rank changed to accommodate a potential reason to use Spinda in OU we could rank Spinda...

What I'm saying is that nobody has shown convincingly that Latios is S rank alongside the current S rankers, and nobody has given a good reason to change the unspoken boundaries of S rank to put Latios up there... You can't change the thought process of a ranking for a single nom because that makes every other ranking placement less meaningful and ultimately pointless. Nobody's really said anything concrete about what else should move if the requirements of S rank suddenly changed, either.

Like Latios is on the discussion slate, fine, but it needs to be discussed in relation to the current ranking boundaries, not these theoretical shifts in policy. Nowhere is there written down in one official place that "S rank is *this* atm, and it would be *that* if we changed it" so there's no way that people can really be arguing Latios for S rank on the same parameters if they're basing their argument on changing S rank.

I've not got anything more to add on Latios in the meta because I've already made my post on that a couple pages back.

You are missing the point of my entire post, the post was not about bringing up Latios to S rank or Tornadus-T, I just used both as examples to illustrate the mindset we have towards "S Rank". The fact is that S rank holds this almost godlike status within the Viability rankings despite the fact that arguably none of the Pokemon in S rank are truly worthy of this rank outside of maybe one (Clefable, which is a tenuous argument at best). If I was arguing for Latios I would have brought up examples, meta game knowledge and matchups, its pros versus' its weakness' rather then trying to shift the discussion towards a meta discussion regarding the position of S rank and what it actually does. Do not focus on the fact that I have Latios as being something that would move up (it is very arguable that it is S rank worthy though despite the prevalence of pursuit but that is for another post). Right now S rank is almost a pointless rank that exists just to create hollow arguments of what belongs where when in reality a lot of the arguments in this room are extremely subjective rather then based on the objective qualities of these Pokemon.

 

[procrastinat]

Talking about CB Entei vs Poison Heal Gliscor, I want to underline the fact that if Gliscor doesn't switch-in, it can easily click Roost to stall all the 8 PP of Sacred Fire which is the strongest move Entei can use towards it and ultimately win. If Gliscor runs Protect in place of Acrobatics (I don't really know why this move is shown in the calculator), the situation is even worse for Entei.

While that's true, why would Entei stay in on a Gliscor that has a free switch? Entei can't OHKO it, and Gliscor has Earthquake to hit Entei. Besides that, I was talking specifically about can switch-in, aka what can counter Entei, which any gliscor lacking protect (Which isn't even listed on any of the sets in the analysis) cannot do. I was not listing what can beat it given a free switch-in, as CB Entei is generally a wallbreaker, which are all prone to being revenge killed anyway, and where a free switch-in often means it KO'd the previous pokemon. You could have said the exact same thing about Azumarill, which can revenge kill with it's CB set after rocks, but would never directly switch into Entei.