Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[Redolent]

Nidoking B -> B+ - Disagree

Clearly going against the grain here but this thing feels overhyped to me. A lot of people have been saying stall and slow, bulky playstyles are dominant lately, so you can see why a wallbreaker like this is becoming more popular, but I think the ability to break common walls is far less significant than people think. As a paranoid stall player I've given a lot of thought to possible wallbreakers and ultimately I've come to the conclusion that while numerous Pokemon can be good wallbreakers, far more than many realise, most of these options never really make an impact because they don't have that same level of usefulness in offence vs offence games where you really need every Pokemon to make an impact. Nidoking obviously can smash through common defensive cores and I totally agree that its resistance to passive damage is almost unmatched, but it's relatively slow, quite frail, and prediction reliant. If you can guess exactly what your opponent is about to bring in then I'm sure it works great, but in practise there are so many fast offensive Pokémon that either force it right out or OHKO it that against speedy offensive playstyles it's just not that reliable and can quickly lose you momentum.

Low Speed tiers are forgivable when you've got high bulk, strong priority, speed-boosting moves and so on but Nido doesn't really have any of that. It can switch into Clef which is nice (although if Nido ever becomes really popular, Clef having Psychic coverage will probably rise proportionally too), but against speedier teams I think the extra speed of faster wallbreakers like LO Garchomp, LO Thundurus or even Charizard X counts for a lot more. I would want to give Nidoking Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Superpower, Stealth Rock and Sucker Punch all at once but the first four moves feel borderline essential... but then a dedicated wallbreaker that is hard walled by Chansey feels underwhelming too. It feels like a significantly worse Landorus-I overall.

Raikou B -> B- - Disagree

Raikou is so valuable in the early game when you are trying to slowly weaken the opposing team, and it's still one of the only reliable ways to check Thundurus in most offence match ups. You can fault it for being easily walled, but even the likes of Chansey and Heatran won't want to repeatedly come into Volt Switch if you have rocks set up. It still checks many offence Pokemon that are otherwise really awkward for these teams to deal with (Talonflame, Pinsir, Scizor, Tornadus, even Jirachi). The Calm Mind set is also very effective against teams that don't have dedicated walls or a Scarfed Ground type. It's not really fair to compare this to Thundurus as they do pretty different things - Thundurus can't switch into things anywhere near as easily as Raikou can.

Mega Beedrill C+ -> C - Disagree

Almost the same reasons as above. There are so many win conditions that are "good, but not quite able to KO the checks they need to when set up." Beedrill is one of the very best chip-damagers, which counts for a lot in the early stages. Simply a nightmare for some teams to deal with. Knock Off is really nice for taking off Landorus' Choice Scarf, Scizor/Ferrothorn/Skarmory's Shed Shell, walls' Leftovers, Gengar's life. There's not much that can comfortably and repeatedly take Adaptability U-turn, entry hazards, possibly with no Leftovers at that. Ultimately Beedrill can come in against almost anything, take a big chunk off it, then leave the field before you can even hit it. All it needs is good support. It may be ultra fast and ultra frail but that's not actually the kind of team it belongs on, it needs bulky support in the back to receive the U-turns. If people used it like that I think they would see how useful it can be. It's not like C+ is a high rank as it is anyway

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I've not been here for ages. What's up with Mega Scizor being A+ but normal Scizor only B-? Undoubtedly it's worse, but by that much? More dmg potential with LO, comparable bulk with Leftovers, it's solid. Apologies if it's not the time to bring it up

 

[Eminent Doom]

I've not been here for ages. What's up with Mega Scizor being A+ but normal Scizor only B-? Undoubtedly it's worse, but by that much? More dmg potential with LO, comparable bulk with Leftovers, it's solid. Apologies if it's not the time to bring it up

The reason regular Scizor is so low in comparison to its Mega comes to one thing: opportunity cost. Sure, you can slap a Band on regular Scizor and call it a day, but Mega Scizor offers potential for much more defensive utility to the team than regular Scizor. Not to mention the lack of Life Orb recoil, and the inability to switch moves when holding a Choice Band. Regular Scizor is still a good 'Mon, but it is just over-shadowed by what Mega Scizor can do. Plus, the added bulk is just so wonderful on such a good defensive typing.

 

[Slowbroman]

Ok then, I see a drop from V4 which I strongly disagree with:

Gourgeist-XL Unranked--->D

I think Gourgeist has just enough of a niche to be ranked, albeit no higher than D. Its niche is its fantastic 85/122 Physical bulk, combined with its decent defensive typing. Together, these allow it to wall a huge array of threats, such as Landorus-T, Choice Scarf and Support Tyranitar, Dragonite, M-Metagross and Mega Medicham. It is also capable of beating Ferrothorn and non-FB Garchomp 1v1, due to an immunity to Leech Seed, a resistance to Ground and access to Will-O-Wisp. Heck, even some of the physical threats it can't beat one one-on-one (Bisharp, T-Flame, CB Tyranitar) hate taking a Leech Seed or Will-O (Bisharp can't OHKO with Knock Off barring a crit and is crippled by Will-O, non-CB T-Flame can't OHKO with Brave Bird barring a crit and is sometimes actually taken out by recoil+Rocky Helmet damage+Leech Seed with a little prior damage or Rocks, CB Tar can't OHKO abrring a crit and hates Will-O.) As an added bonus, it can spinblock and also works as a great check to M-Scizor

Obviously, it is greatly flawed- it faces competition from Ferrothorn for the position of defensive Grass and even Skarmory as a Physical wall, its Special bulk is subpar, it is extremely passive and it is weak to the omnipresent Knock Off. However, I feel the niches above are enough to warrant a D-ranking.

REPLAYS:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-371074978
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-371079547

(Btw sorry if this sounds arrogant/noobish lol)

 

[Gary]

What some of you guys need to realize with the way the new ranking system is set up, S rank is no longer a rank where very splashable, versatile, or strong metagame picks go, which is why Keldeo and Torn-T dropped. I saw someone nomming Latios on an earlier page and it seems some of you still don't understand what makes Pokemon S rank at this point. In order for a Pokemon to be even considered for S rank, it needs to not only be one of the best Pokemon in the metagame, but there's also a number of other factors. Take Clef for instance, our only current S rank Pokemon. It has plenty of checks/counters, but most of them are easily exploitable and can be taken care of with just a simple change of its moveset (Heatran and Mega Venu hate being paralyzed, Steels hate switching into a potential Flamethrower etc). Its typing, bulk, and ability make it an excellent pick for lots of balance and bulky offense teams because it can check so many things, provides utility as well as a solid win condition. It's also pretty damn versatile, being able to provide paralysis support, check dangerous sweepers, cleric, Stealth Rocker, sweeper, lure, etc. It has an insane movepool which allows it to be tailored to fit your teams needs.

So all in all, Clef stands out as the best Pokemon in the metagame overall because it's almost always able to pull its weight in any match, it's versatile and splashable, many of its checks and counters can be easily dealt with by itself or teammates, and its able to accomplish its job even with teams that provide multiple answers to it. It's not just something you can easily work around; one wrong move and Clef can completely fuck you over even if you pack something like a Heatran or a Mega Scizor. You may think your Heatran can trap and kill it with Magma Storm/Taunt, but clumsily switched it into an oncoming T-wave, and now you're set up bait for it. You may think your SD Lando-T can set up on it, but it's packing Ice Beam. It's just such a stupidly successful Pokemon that there's no question that compared to everything else, it stands out as the best.

So with all that said, just because something like Lando-T or Latios might be on every team, doesn't mean they're worthy of S rank too. Clef may have less usage than them, but it's just far more successful at doing it job than anything else in the metagame at the moment, and there is absolutely nothing else in OU right now that can do what Clef does so well and so consistently. Clef is able to adapt to the metagame even with the meta is trying to shift against it, and it's been that way the entirety of ORAS. So in order for a Pokemon to be S rank, it has to be the BEST of the best. That's not to say that there can only be one Pokemon in S rank, but it's far less likely that you will see S rank be comprised of multiple Pokemon like in the past. There can be plenty of really good Pokemon, but only very select individuals can be considered the best Pokemon in OU. The new S rank is meant to represent Pokemon that, in simplest terms, completely rule the metagame.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Terrakion B+ --> A-

I agree with this one a lot. There has been a noticeable drop in bulky grounds in the meta and Terrakion is having a field day because of it. Swords dance Terrakion has been wrecking bulkier teams and if it's double dance, it's matchup against offense is even pretty solid. I've been trying adamant lum and jolly life orb and I've had great success recently. I can't speak to the lead, band and scarf sets, but the swords dance and double dance sets seem really strong right now and I fully support a rise.

 

[Ajwf]

Hippowdon... Just isn't a really good wall. Like it's redeeming quality over any other ground is it has recovery. On balance, the fact that it counters electric might be more useful than it is on stall (which is, basically useless). My biggest issue is, for as much a wall as this thing is supposed to be, it has to check so much you want it to counter. And now, it's even having competition from Quagsire for that spot, who is arguably more effective because Quag will actually straight-out take Scizor-m, another thing Hippo wishes it could stop. So in stall, Hippo is normally crowded out by Quag or occasionally something like Rhyperior (which straight up counters Zardx and Pinsir-M) or Gastrodon. Not to mention Skarm/tangrowth indirectly competes with him on the role of 'catch all wall with some utility' (as well as stopping most ground users).

Outside landorus-t there is nothing in A+ through S I like hippo into. In A he can counter Loppunny-M, Talonflame and TTar. He has to check Zardx all the time and Exca if he has any chip damage taken. Everything else beats him. There are 6 threats in A that destroy him along with offensive heatran which beats him if he can hit two fire blasts after rocks.

I don't think it warrants a rank up.

 

[Aberforth]

Backing TTar to move up to A+.

Sand is great at the moment, and Ttar is the backbone of the playstyle, also offering pursuit support for Volcanion, Keldeo, Zardy and other special attackers that like Latis gone, and its incredibly versatile with Band, Scarf and Chopple all being good options, with band destroying stall teams, scarf being ever useful and Chopple being very good to let TTar check things like Torn-T, Zardy and the Alakazam formes and does so many things so well, and can ergo fit on so many teams, that I feel it should rise to A+.

 

[Subjugator]

I know that D Rank is more wide now but I still think that D is really undermining Porygon2. The thing is, I have been using it on Stall lately, and I am surprised at how bulky it is. Really, Eviolite Porygon2 is kind of like Chansey on the Special Side. Eviolite Porygon2 is completely ridiculous, as it checks a large amount of the higher ranked Pokemon, such as Clefable, Tyranitar, Latios, Rotom-Wash, Mega Diancie, Garchomp, Gliscor, the list goes on and on. It 1v1s Lando, Torn-T and users of Knock Off, but one of its only immediate flaws is it's reliability on its item. Again D Rank is really undermining it, so I'm thinking C- or C at best. Have a Merry Christmas everybody

 

[Random Passerby]

I know that D Rank is more wide now but I still think that D is really undermining Porygon2. The thing is, I have been using it on Stall lately, and I am surprised at how bulky it is. Really, Eviolite Porygon2 is kind of like Chansey on the Special Side. Eviolite Porygon2 is completely ridiculous, as it checks a large amount of the higher ranked Pokemon, such as Clefable, Tyranitar, Latios, Rotom-Wash, Mega Diancie, Garchomp, Gliscor, the list goes on and on. It 1v1s Lando, Torn-T and users of Knock Off, but one of its only immediate flaws is it's reliability on its item. Again D Rank is really undermining it, so I'm thinking C- or C at best. Have a Merry Christmas everybody

How does it beat Clefable when Clefable just sets up on it? Band Ttar 2HKOes it with Stone Edge and taking Crunch isn't fun either when you can't do anything back. Rotom-W just Volt Switch out or status it, pressuring it to Recover more often. Porygon2 just forces you into losing momentum because how passive it is- maning it really only fits Stall which isn't seen too much nowadays. There's no need for it to rise imo.

 

[in the hills]

Wow a ton of huge changes this time around. Just thought I'd bring up a few points.
Terrakion B+ -> A- Agree. This mon is great in the meta atm and has a good amount of sets aside from Band that are perfectly viable. It can be a great sr lead, threaten offense with a scarf set (although the banded set pretty much does too) and shit on stall with Sub SD.

SD

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+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 341-402 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 289-341 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 203-239 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 320-376 (105.2 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 286-337 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 348-411 (114.8 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Choice Band

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252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 201-237 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Terrakion is an offensive threat that should never be counted out which is why I think it should rise.
Nidoking B -> B+ Agree. Nidoking is definitely not overhyped. It has a great typing that is great on both offense and defense. Oh yeah and what's the name of that only S rank mon? Nido the only mon in the meta that resists Clefs Moonblast, is immune to Twave and isn't severely damaged by Clefs other optional 4th moveslots. Aside from Clefable, this mon also breaks a ton of bulkier mons that have popularized lately

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252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 494-585 (122.5 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 309-367 (73.5 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 146-173 (48 - 56.9%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 398-468 (101 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (just fyi)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Mega Slowbro: 253-300 (64.2 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 149-177 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 452-536 (131.7 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (EP also has about the same chance to 2HKO as Rotom-W so it can't switch in on that either really)

As you can see that thing is a fucking monster and threatens bulkier teams
Raikou B -> B- Disagree. Raikou is a great offensive pivot and is one of the best AV users in the tier. His AV set is a good check to the fast electrics of the tier and other Special Attackers like Char-Y. It has a great speed tier also and decent special attack itself with a decent movepool that can threaten a good amount of teams.
Mew B+ -> B Disagree. Mew is a very versatile mon in the meta right now and can fill a number of roles on a team. He can set up hazards, remove them, and provides a good amount of support to just about any team. Another good thing about it is the fact that it checks the highly threatening Mega Medicham, and can cripple it with WoW.
Alakazam B -> B+ Disagree. Alakazam is a decent special attacker, but it is completely outclassed by Mega Alakazam and other fast psychics. Also it's too frail
to switch in on anything, doesn't threaten stall too much, and is weak to offenses priority. All around it's just an average mon that doesn't have a huge role in the meta.
Slowking B -> B+ Agree. Slowking, like Slowbro, has the amazing water/psychic typing and amazing bulk stats. Although it's outclassed by Slowbro in most areas, Slowking has a nice niche as a special wall and can set up CM on a good amount of mons. It outclasses Suicune as far as being a CM mon because it has access to a reliable recovery move and Psyshock which shits on other cm setters 1v1 bar Mega Sab and other dark types.
Hippowdon B -> B+ Disagree. I would've probably agreed pre Volcanion because at the time he was a great wall, but the shift in the meta recently has honestly murdered him. Tyranitar outclasses him as a Sandstorm setter 9/10 times and provides some offensive pressure which Hippo just can't. With the huge rise of bulky waters, he can't perform nearly as well anymore in the meta and honestly I wouldn't mind seeing him drop down to B-. Not at all impressed by him anymore.
Aside from the current discussion, there are a few mons I would like to comment on, first off is Mega Gardevoir.
I personally think Mega Gardevoir should go from A- -> A because it is one of the strongest special attackers in the meta, as well as a great movepool that can threat offense, break stall, and destroy bulky offense.
It's usual set has just about no defensive checks, and it also usually carries WoW if a bulky offensive steel like Scizor, Rachi or AV Meta tries to come in on it. If it runs Taunt, it can shut down CM clef and stall fairly quickly. There is also the CM Snore set that threatens stall and kills balance and bulky offense teams, but isn't as threatening to HO. Overall, Mega Gardevoir's impact on the meta is large, it threatens just about every team, and stall teams have to reserve a check for it, which is why I think it would be a great A ranked mon.
The other mon I would like to talk about is Mega Garchomp. At 170 base attack and access to SD, he can hit harder than just about everything in the tier, especially when his Sand Force ability is activated. I really like this mon in the current meta because his power is almost unmatched in OU, especially with the amount of sand teams in the meta helping him out even more. He also can run a mixed set that can bait physical walls in like Skarm or Ferro and severely cripple/kill them with Fire Blast. He also has his SD set with which he can absolutely destroy stall. Honestly I don't get why he doesn't get the credit he deserves over LO SD Chomp, as he still hits harder in the sand without recoil. Mega Chomp also is one of the bulkiest offensive mons, boasting 108/115/95 defensesI would like to see him go from B- -> B or B+ purely from his wallbreaking ability alone
SD set

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+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Sand: 382-451 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sand: 216-255 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 361-426 (119.1 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye in Sand: 429-505 (141.1 - 166.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sand: 756-889 (117.7 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (outrage also 1HKOs)
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (nice Unaware lol)
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 432-508 (122.7 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 307-363 (80.3 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 334-394 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed in sand)

Mixed set

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4 SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 248-292 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 308-364 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Mega Chomp is one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the meta, and it has decent enough speed to outspeed half the mons in the meta, which is why I think a rise is necessary.

After a mon like Volcanion was released, a new viability rankings was definitely necessary, and the new rankings definitely look good. Good work on getting it all handled

 

[tigers jaw]

Yeah, Clef is the best Pokemon in the meta right now, and I think it has been the whole gen barring the superbroken shit. I can't see anything reaching the level Clef has (other than maybe Zard X because it is truly monstrous but idk time will tell), so considering the new ranking system, it will/should be the only S-rank for the rest of the gen but that's just what I think, yknow.

Anyway, on to a nom: Hoopa is sitting at a pathetic C- atm, which is silly imo. There are very few viable ghost resists anyway, and when you consider the power (150 SpAtt is fucking incredible with a real item) and coverage this thing gets, it is incredibly hard to switch into. In fact, looking down the vr list, none of the relevant things can switch into this without fearing the ohko/2hko. Balance and stall have serious problems with this thing. The drawbacks are obvious: low def, mediocre speed and mediocre-to-bad typing. I'd go into detail about U-turn and Volt-switch being it's best friends but at the end of the day it's Specs Hoopa-superbalanced with less power, so you already know the script.

I think it needs more respect and usage. I'm not suggesting a raise of anything above one or two sub-ranks, which is reasonable, I think.

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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-371421562 this is an Emvee team with a slight mod to the Ferro set to handle Thund better. I lose because of the worst plays ever to be made, but Hoopa does it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-371424402 game right after the one above

I can get more replays if you'd like?

 

[HailFall]

Yeah, Clef is the best Pokemon in the meta right now, and I think it's been the whole gen barring the superbroken shit. I can't see anything reaching the level Clef has (other than maybe Zard X because it is truly monstrous but idk time will tell), so considering the new ranking system, it will/should be the only S-rank for the rest of the gen but that's just what I think, yknow.

Anyway, on to a nom: Hoopa is sitting at a pathetic C- atm, which is silly imo. There are very few viable ghost resists anyway, and when you consider the power (150 SpAtt is fucking incredible with a real item) and coverage this thing gets, it is incredibly hard to switch into. In fact, looking down the vr list, none of the relevant things can switch into this without fearing the ohko/2hko. Balance and stall have serious problems with this thing. The drawbacks are obvious: low def, mediocre speed and mediocre-to-bad typing. I'd go into detail about U-turn and Volt-switch being it's best friends but at the end of the day it's Specs Hoopa-superbalanced with less power, so you already know the script.

I think it needs more respect and usage. I'm not suggesting a raise of anything above one or two sub-ranks, which is reasonable, I think.

Hide

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-371421562 this is an Emvee team with a slight mod to the Ferro set to handle Thund better. I lose because of the worst plays ever to be made, but Hoopa does it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-371424402 game right after the one above

I can get more replays if you'd like?

Hoopa-c has a pretty difficult time in this meta with pursuit trapping everywhere. It's certainly a formidable wallbreaker but it's so easily revenge killed. Low speed and poor physical bulk also are major factors holding it back. Hoopa is just very hard to fit onto a team and requires too much support to function to warrant a rise imo.

 

[tigers jaw]

Hoopa-c has a pretty difficult time in this meta with pursuit trapping everywhere. It's certainly a formidable wallbreakers but it's so easily revenge killed. Low speed and poor physical bulk also are major factors holding it back. Hoopa is just very hard to fit onto a team and requires too much support to function to warrant a rise imo.

Just to show you how ridiculous this sounds:

"Hoopa-U has a pretty difficult time in this meta with pursuit trapping everywhere. It's certainly a formidable wallbreaker but it's so easily revenge killed. Low speed and poor physical bulk also are major factors holding it back. Hoopa-U is just very hard to fit on a team and requires too much support to function and warrant a rise imo."

Like I said, it's Specs Hoopa-balanced with less power.

Edit: I cannot stress just how spammable Ghost is as an offensive type right now. Go to the current OU battles on PS above like 1650-1700 and tell me how many resists you see? And I mean proper resists, not lol2hkoed after Orb recoil/rocks/spikes/with-better-than-shit rolls Weavile. Let's not forget Focus Blast which is clean blowing back the other top-20 usage Dark type Mons, Tyranitar and Bish.

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editing this in because lol 252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 146-172 (53.8 - 63.4%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 219-258 (80.8 - 95.2%)

 

[Aberforth]

I dont think you get how big the extra speed, ability to go mixed, extra power and superiority of its stab coverage was for Hoopa-Unbound. As for resists, they're not really that important when you're just getting one kill before getting pursuit trapped by ttar/weavile/bisharp or they could be a man and hard switch them in meaning its always a prediction game of focus blast vs just killing whats in front of you.

Bulky offense is probably the best playstyle at the moment (although on the ladder its probably stall) and it will have 5 things that outspeed and will kill hoopa-c in most matchups.

Also dark psychic is somehow a better defensive typing than ghost psychic. At least with Hoopa-U it was only one four times weakness and it wasn't to pursuit.

 

[Celticpride]

I dont think you get how big the extra speed, ability to go mixed, extra power and superiority of its stab coverage was for Hoopa-Unbound.

Pretty sure he does, Hoopa-U was an A+ mon and Hoopa-C is maybe a C+ mon at absolute best. There's a clear chasm of viability even if Hoopa-C reaches C+ or B-. Saying "it lacks these tools that the banned mon had" does absolutely nothing to further your argument.

As for resists, they're not really that important when you're just getting one kill before getting pursuit trapped by ttar/weavile/bisharp or they could be a man and hard switch them in meaning its always a prediction game of focus blast vs just killing whats in front of you.

That prediction game applies to a number of other things as well, such as the currently C+ Victini vs a Grass with TTar in the back. Yeah it sucks to have to be involved in a prediction game like that but most stuff in C+ or C is pretty flawed anyways to the point where a Pursuit weakness isn't a deathnail in Hoopa-C ever moving up. And it's a low ranked wallbreaker, if it gets a kill and trades in some bad matchups and practical scenarios that's not the worst thing in the world.

 

[tigers jaw]

I dont think you get how big the extra speed, ability to go mixed, extra power and superiority of its stab coverage was for Hoopa-Unbound. As for resists, they're not really that important when you're just getting one kill before getting pursuit trapped by ttar/weavile/bisharp or they could be a man and hard switch them in meaning its always a prediction game of focus blast vs just killing whats in front of you.

Bulky offense is probably the best playstyle at the moment (although on the ladder its probably stall) and it will have 5 things that outspeed and will kill hoopa-c in most matchups.

Also dark psychic is somehow a better defensive typing than ghost psychic. At least with Hoopa-U it was only one four times weakness and it wasn't to pursuit.

No, certainly I can acknowledge the advantages of mixed capabilities and the power increase needs no explanation as to why it is beneficial. I think you overestimate the drop in speed and its importance. In reality, the only things you're missing out on (and I mean actual relevant things) are like creeping Jirachi (which should've been creeping Unbound back when it was around anyway for the U-turn), max Jolly sharp (which was always going for sucker vs unbound), Breloom (which I'm p sure on bullet seed rolls, Hoopa-c and unbound have the exact same matchup against assuming the Breloom is sash), Adamant Drill (which is 99% of the time going to be Rush so you're not relying on Hoopa to beat it obv). Only in fringe scenarios is the speed drop going to make a tangible difference. To finish the segment, are you serious about Unbound having better STABs? Ghost is unequivocally superior to dark thanks to the inherent lack of viable resists, and the fact that Ghost is basically a completely upgraded Dark type in offensive terms.

Your point with regards to bulky offence, and its likelihood to have at least five things to outspeed and OHKO Hoopa doesn't sound solid. Sounds like nothing but conjecture. Not to mention, what's to say that these mythical 5 Pokemon aren't outspeeding and OHKOing Unbound?

Reminder: I am not suggesting this shit to go to A or anything, lol, but the ranking it has now is pathetic for something with its capabilities.

edit: ty celtic. what I am saying is that this is a watered-down Hoopa-U.
edit2: just fucking try it out if you're not convinced. it's solid, well, it's more solid than garbage like rotom-h, cofag, chesnaught and ultra shitmon magneton

 

[Kutscher]

i disagree with mega garchomp moving to B, mega comp is a good wallbreaker under sand, but i can't see reasosns to use it use it outside of sand, since LO chomp outdamage it outside sand, and the extra bulk from mega isn't relevant, also mega chomp have predict problems, if you use EQ on a latios switch your set-up become useless(i know u can trap with ttar, but we are not discussing sand in general) Diggersby, Crawdaunt and mamoswine also have this predict problems but i can't see mega chomp in a rank above any of them:

252 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Sand: 261-307 (64.6 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 268-317 (66.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

(diggersby can run adamant and outdamage it), mega chomp outdamage mamo, but mamo have good points like stab ice type, ability to check eletric types and priority(daunt and diggersby also have priority) wich help them to fight against offense. the biggest reason that Mega chomp shouldn't be higher than them, is that neighter of them uses a mega slot, and they can be used in more playstyles than sand offense/balanced (and two of them can break defensive teams more easily lol).

also i would like to Disagree with Raikou going to B- we all know that eletric types aren't that great anymore, but B- is really underselling raikou capacibilies, raikou treaths every offensive mon with less then 115 speed, with and av raikou can deal with faster things more easily like alakazam(mega) and i know that i am probably the only one but av is my favorite set, it can pivot on so many things and forece them out, specs can ko 2ko so many things, making it an nice revange killer/early game pivot, and CM can destroy teams late games that only special attackers/slow mons are alive.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-371075715

 

[Gary]

Nah Mega Chomper is good in B-. It was originally C+ before the new VR update was released, and I was actually the one that vouched for it to move up. Personally I think the Mixed set is the reason why people tend to find it underwhelming, as compared to other wallbreakers such as Nidoking, Kyurem-B, and Mega Heracross its opportunity cost is pretty damn high and you're better off using another wallbreaker + different mega. However, while it's not the most amazing mixed wallbreaker in the world, its SD 3 attacks set is strong as fuck, and with sand support it practically breaks stall and balance in half like a twig. While Fire Blast is still an option, I hate taking away from Mega Chomp's bulk, because it's a LOT like Mega Heracross in that its bulk and typing gives it many opportunities to set up, which more than make up for its drop in Speed. However, you'd be best to invest as much as you can in Speed so you can take advantage of Chomp before it Megas as well as outspeeding important shit like Jolly Exca or non positive base 100s.

I myself prefer to use Fire Fang simply because SpD Skarm still has a chance to avoid the 2HKO from Fire Blast, but at +2 it takes like 90% from it, as well as destroying Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor. Sure you may do more immediate damage to certain Pokemon with Fire Blast, but if your primarily using Mega Chomp to blast through defensive cores than Fire Fang just seems like the more superior option considering you will be at +2 when going against Skarm anyway. If you remember blunder's match in SPL even with a Mega Bro stall stands no chance against this thing, because in sand Quag is easily 2HKOed by EQ, Skarm dies to +2 Fire Fang, and the Mega Bro stall has to depend heavily on Scald burns to take it down. Weavile stall is like the only stall I've seen that can somewhat take this thing on because Weavile can at least check it, but Chomper can just simply switch out and pressure it with SR. Outside of stall it can easily muscle through shit like Clefable, bulky Lando-T, Hippo, and Tangrowth.

Mega Heracross is still the better all around wallbreaker mega to use because it hits harder and has literally zero counters whereas Mega Chomp has like Togekiss, but Mega Chomp fits pretty well on sand builds as a fantastic partner to Excadrill, as both work hand in hand destroying fat teams and offense respectively. Mega Chomp aint on par with Nidoking though for sure, and even if its moves up to B+ it's still hard to see in the same rank as D-Nite or Loom which can both be devestating and come with MUCH less opportunity cost. Mega Chomp is good, but requires a decent amount of support and faces competition from other wallbreakers due to it being a mega with a higher opportunity cost.

 

[aceguy123]

Also LOL at mega swampert being ranked above omastar. As someone who has played rain a lot that is unbelievably inaccurate.

Mega Swampert is much better than omastar to the point where it's laughable. Better resistances, better stab (having coverage on steel/electric is much more important than ice/flying especially when water is neutral), better bulk, immune to para from TWave (the big reason). They differ in attack style too (Atk vs SpA) so the more comparable mon to Swampert would be Kabutops and the more comparable mon to Omastar would be Kingdra, which also outclasses Omastar. Omastar can't even effectively use its second stab because it's best attack is Ancient Power. So yea MSwampert is fine, maybe even lower than where it should be. Since Volcanion has been introduced it's one of the better checks to it because it outspeeds Scarf and OHKO's with EQ (only problem is the Lando-T/Volc combo is annoying for Swamp). Don't even bring up Mega slot, it's a worthless argument most of the time.

As for the rest of the list changes, I think they're mostly fine except I'm confused as to how Rotom-W has risen so much. I've only played a couple dozen games since Volcanion and new abilities have been introduced but is Volcanion so much of a threat that Rotom-W has risen to being A+ with that elite group? I don't see it as any more threatening than it was back when we only rated it as A-/A.

Also I gotta imagine that now's the time for Heatran to drop to A-. Water is the most represented type tied with Steel from S to A- rank atm and I think Volcanion as the newest introduction is an outright counter except to like a predicted Specs Ancient Power.

Quick run through of the proposed changes:
Terrakion B+ -> A- : Sure. Sold 55/45 on this one, he's damn powerful as a lead but if you have a predicted counter as a lead he's easy to shut down.
Mew B+ -> B : Yes. Just not that good honestly.
Nidoking B -> B+: No. Same reason
Slowking B -> B+: No. Again is Volcanion really that big of a problem?
Alakazam B -> B+: No. Easily stopped by a SpDef intensive Steel mon and Torn-T still exists and is very good.
Hippowdon B -> B+: Sure. Similar to Terrakion but instead applied to the tank role.
Mamoswine B- -> B: Yes. Meta stomper plus will forever be underrated.
Metagross B- -> B: Yes. I've seen it increasingly becoming more effective. It seems like players are actually getting better with it over time than worse which is a good sign.
Raikou B -> B-: Yes. I personally wreck Raikou but I have seen it being effective at certain times against other teams but now I've seen that less and less.
Mega Beedrill C+ -> C: Yes. Not good, so many flying types, so many steel types.
Feraligatr C -> C+: Yes. All the waters! All the good waters rising to the top.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Nidoking B -> B+: No. [Just not that good honestly.]

Let me stop you there. . . Have you read the reasons for it rising?
Nidoking hits pretty damn hard, with good stat spread, and the ever coveted Sheer Force LO combo. His STAB hit anything pretty hard, and the few things that are even thinking of switching in, lose to its coverage moves. Not to mention it tears the Best Pokemon in the tier right the hell open. Comes in on Clef, and kills it, or forces it out. Right now, the worst part about Clefable is not wanting to ever switch anything in because of TWave. Well, with Nidoking, you have absolutely no problem coming in on Clefable, Moonblast doesn't do shit, and it can't be TWave'd, add on the fact that Nidoking can afford to predict and you have a very good Pokemon on your hands.

I'm not advocating for it to rise, I'm just saying your "not that good" statement is complete rubbish.

 

[Subjugator]

Quick run through of the proposed changes:
Terrakion B+ -> A- : Sure. Sold 55/45 on this one, he's damn powerful as a lead but if you have a predicted counter as a lead he's easy to shut down.
Mew B+ -> B : Yes. Just not that good honestly.
Nidoking B -> B+: No. Same reason
Slowking B -> B+: No. Again is Volcanion really that big of a problem?
Alakazam B -> B+: No. Easily stopped by a SpDef intensive Steel mon and Torn-T still exists and is very good.
Hippowdon B -> B+: Sure. Similar to Terrakion but instead applied to the tank role.
Mamoswine B- -> B: Yes. Meta stomper plus will forever be underrated.
Metagross B- -> B: Yes. I've seen it increasingly becoming more effective. It seems like players are actually getting better with it over time than worse which is a good sign.
Raikou B -> B-: Yes. I personally wreck Raikou but I have seen it being effective at certain times against other teams but now I've seen that less and less.
Mega Beedrill C+ -> C: Yes. Not good, so many flying types, so many steel types.
Feraligatr C -> C+: Yes. All the waters! All the good waters rising to the top.

I'm not going to lie, this logic is bad. Very bad.

Instead of giving reasons for something to rise or fall, you just say "that it isn't good", despite being in no position to even say such factoids when you have not given any valid reasons pertaining to why "it is bad". What, "it's bad" because Nidoking is not the most conventional Pokemon? Sorry to be blunt, but that way of thinking won't get you very far. You can't just say that someone isn't that good without giving evidence and expect a positive response.

Second, Hippowdon and Terrakion are completely different Pokemon, and saying that "it is applied to the tank role" is very silly. They have almost nothing in common with each other besides the fact that they are four-legged creatures. Saying a Pokemon resembles another Pokemon is already a dumb reason to advocate for a mon rising, but what's more is that you're completely wrong.

Third, your logic for Volcanion is kind of flimsy too. "Again is Volcanion really that big of a problem?" um yes it is, considering how much spotlight it has rn and how hard it is to switch into.

Fourth, again, another logical flaw. "All the waters! All the good waters rising to the top." You give no evidence as to why Feraligatr is good or is worthy of rising.

Sorry for being blunt, but this is something that I feel that I have to act on. Have a good day.

 

[aceguy123]

I'm not going to lie, this logic is bad. Very bad.

Instead of giving reasons for something to rise or fall, you just say "that it isn't good", despite being in no position to even say such factoids when you have not given any valid reasons pertaining to why "it is bad". What, "it's bad" because Nidoking is not the most conventional Pokemon? Sorry to be blunt, but that way of thinking won't get you very far. You can't just say that someone isn't that good without giving evidence and expect a positive response.

Second, Hippowdon and Terrakion are completely different Pokemon, and saying that "it is applied to the tank role" is very silly. They have almost nothing in common with each other besides the fact that they are four-legged creatures. Saying a Pokemon resembles another Pokemon is already a dumb reason to advocate for a mon rising, but what's more is that you're completely wrong.

Third, your logic for Volcanion is kind of flimsy too. "Again is Volcanion really that big of a problem?" um yes it is, considering how much spotlight it has rn and how hard it is to switch into.

Fourth, again, another logical flaw. "All the waters! All the good waters rising to the top." You give no evidence as to why Feraligatr is good or is worthy of rising.

Sorry for being blunt, but this is something that I feel that I have to act on. Have a good day.

Sorry didn't wanna have to write a thesis on each one but here's some more explained thoughts on each point you brought up.

Nidoking: It's best point is that it breaks through Clefable reliably as well as Steels. Problem is every other kind of mon has the ability to revenge kill it for the most part, and it has definite checks so you can't give it the Hoopa-U argument that it doesn't matter that its speed is low since you can't switch stuff in. You can switch stuff into Nido with prediction, and like I said most checks will do the part of threatening it out too.

Hippowdon: You didn't read into what I meant correctly. I meant that I had a similar stance on Hippowdon (being 55/45 on it rising) because Hippowdon occupies a similar space of being good at its role (for Terrakion, a power attacking lead, for Hippowdon, a solid attacking tank) but are threatened by teams that have a counter mon and can reliably switch that mon in when their role is up to bat. Like sending out Skarm against Terrakion gives Skarm team a lead 95% of the time and similar for sending out Keldeo when expecting Hippowdon to come out.

Volcanion: I specifically pointed out earlier that I'm unsure of Volcanion's impact on the meta atm. I've played against it and played with it, but have a hard time seeing its impact. It definitely fills a role that nothing else was occupying prior to its introduction but I don't think that reacting with mons like Slowking is going to be the answer in the long run because of the reasons it wasn't good prior to Volcanion. That it has low Defense and its typing is better at blocking Special Defensive attacks than Attack types which is why Slowbro is great since it sorta fills out both. I think people will see that you can run faster attackers to stop both Volcanion and the Volcanion counters people will be running in one swoop and therefore I don't see why Slowking should rise.

Feraligatr: I was just going off of the general trend I'm seeing which is people are having Waters rise because they stop Volcanion. Whereas I disagree in the case of Slowking because I think it's reactionary in the wrong way, Feraligatr is reactionary in the right way (as I said above, I think the resolution to the meta will be faster physical attackers) and Feraligatr fits the bill.

 

[p2]

don't know why this thing fell so far when it's arguably the best wincon and the absolute scariest sd user in the tier. i mean seriously, it really doesn't necessitate a lot of support, it's more or less just appreciated when it comes to stuff like spike support in being able to weaken its counters extremely quickly, but it chips and whittles them very quickly as it is. it's also one of the better defog deterrences in the tier purely because of its great matchup against common defoggers like latis where it usually gets to pick off something for free or can come out with a free +2 which means its gonna put a big dent into teams no matter what.

it also shares the same trait with weavile in that almost nothing on defensive teams can actually handle it reliably, meaning that it can just brute force through anything if it gets a flinch, 30% mind you, and we keep keldeo at such a high rank because of a 30% chance that turns its checks into liabilities.

honestly, i think bisharp is just as viable as weavile, and the vr should reflect this.

i'm thinking mega latias should also be bumped up to a too. really amazing blanket check to stuff like waters, electrics, lopunny, grounds, grasses, and is incredibly potent with cm since it accumulates boosts ridiculously easily and can be made even easier with shit like reflect type or refresh, but cm 2 attacks is best right now imo, setting up on a ton of stuff and putting huge dents into stuff with stored power. sure cb ttar being more common sucks for it, but i mean it has the tools to bypass it if it wants, so it's not a complete hard stop, also surf hits it really hard too.

holy moly terrakion also deserves to rise to a-. covered this before in that people run rock "resists" like lando-t, garchomp and slowbro, which all get blown back by one of terrak's stabs, extremely powerful wallbreaker rn and puts so much pressure on defensive teams because it's a total bitch to play around as steel and ground types just get completely obliterated by cc and nothing else likes taking banded stone edges.

slowking also deserves to rise to b+, it's also another unprepared for mon and works really well with cm as the extra spdef over slowbro gives it an easier time against latis, clef, volc, starmie, etc. it also is a reliable answer to mega diancie, which slowbro fails to do as it lacks the spdef to consistently switch into moonblast while slowking can switch into both moonblast and diamond storm with ease. love this mon

 

[Sweep]

Mega Swampert is much better than omastar to the point where it's laughable. Better resistances, better stab (having coverage on steel/electric is much more important than ice/flying especially when water is neutral), better bulk, immune to para from TWave (the big reason). They differ in attack style too (Atk vs SpA) so the more comparable mon to Swampert would be Kabutops and the more comparable mon to Omastar would be Kingdra, which also outclasses Omastar. Omastar can't even effectively use its second stab because it's best attack is Ancient Power. So yea MSwampert is fine, maybe even lower than where it should be. Since Volcanion has been introduced it's one of the better checks to it because it outspeeds Scarf and OHKO's with EQ (only problem is the Lando-T/Volc combo is annoying for Swamp). Don't even bring up Mega slot, it's a worthless argument most of the time.

OK, I'll address this point by point (in Hide tags, because I know this is off-topic and don't want to distract discussion):

Hide

"Better resistances"

Well, no argument here I guess, although you use Swift Swimmers to kill things, not provide defensive synergy. Swampert is still an interesting check to most Electrics, although Omastar OHKOes all of them with Rain up anyway. When Rain turns are used up, that's when stuff like Mega Manectric can become really problematic for Rain teams and Swampert deals with them well enough.
"better stab (having coverage on steel/electric is much more important than ice/flying especially when water is neutral)"

Utterly irrelevant. Omastar literally outdamages Swampert against many of these (commonly used) Steel and Electric Pokemon. Calculations are below.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor in Rain: 336-396 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor in Rain: 160-190 (46.6 - 55.3%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 135-159 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory in Rain: 366-432 (109.5 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (so Omastar OHKOes specially defensive Skarmory while Swampert cannot even 2HKO physically defensive...obviously Skarmory's defensive stats are skewed towards the physical side but come on, that's pathetic)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric in Rain: 490-577 (174.3 - 205.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 476-564 (169.3 - 200.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 191-225 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Rotom-W in Rain: 85-101 (28 - 33.3%) -- 94.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Both OHKO standard Klefki but Klefki paralyzes it before dying, so score one for Swampert there I guess.

Omastar doesn't need great coverage when it can just click Hydro Pump, and if you REALLY want Omastar to beat down random Rain checks like Tentacruel / Empoleon / Volcaniom, it can beat all of them with Shell Smash + Earth Power.

"better bulk"

Only on the special side; they have similar physical bulk. Omastar's bulk is comparable to Kingdra (albeit with a way way worse defensive typing) and slightly better than Kabutops, so Swampert has this edge over every Swift Swimmer. I'd rather the extra power than the extra bulk on Rain teams.

"immune to para from TWave (the big reason)"

Omastar OHKOes standard Clefable and usually OHKOes the 72 SpD Calm variant, and forces Thundurus and Klefki to sacrifice themselves to cripple it. Slowbro and Rotom-W, two other potential Thunder Wave users, wall Swampert anyway and can never switch in on Omastar. Switching in on non-GK Thundurus is a cool attribute that Mega Swampert has, but this is more of a minor point than a big reason.

"They differ in attack style too (Atk vs SpA) so the more comparable mon to Swampert would be Kabutops and the more comparable mon to Omastar would be Kingdra, which also outclasses Omastar."

Comparing them isn't a perfect science, but considering there are only 4 viable Swift Swimmers (5 if you count Seis but meh), it's hard not to. Kabutops is both faster and more powerful than Mega Swampert, and can offer utility in the form of Rapid Spin or priority for teams that desire it, so I don't consider Mega Swampert to be as good as Kabutops at all. Regardless of whether they hit from the physical or special spectrum, Swift Swimmers have essentially the same objective: Use the limited number of Rain turns they have to wreck as much as possible. Kingdra, Kabutops, and Omastar all do a better job of this because they hit noticeably harder while being extremely fast right from the get-go; Swampert either has to forgo a coverage move for Protect (which still burns a Rain turn!) or live with being vulnerable to offensive teams the first turn it is out.

Also, Omastar and Kingdra are typically used on the same team; Omastar wallbreaks to help facilitate a Kingdra clean. I'm not going to argue that Omastar is as good as Kingdra, the premier Swift Swimmer, because it obviously isn't...but it doesn't have to be. It just has to wallbreak like crazy and it does that.

"Omastar can't even effectively use its second stab because it's best attack is Ancient Power."

It never uses Ancient Power. I have literally never seen Ancient Power on Omastar in competitive play, ever. Earth Power and Ice Beam hit as hard as Ancient Power does while destroying would-be checks.

"Don't even bring up Mega slot, it's a worthless argument most of the time."

I agree the Mega slot isn't that big of a deal, even if Rain teams really like using mons like Mega Heracross or Mega Scizor. The bigger issue is not having Swift Swim the first turn you send out Swampert...

tl;dr Omastar > Swampert because it is better at doing Swift Swimmer things

I strongly agree with Nidoking rising, it does an awesome job at turning Clefable into a liability by absorbing Thunder Wave / resisting Moonblast. It's not easy to get in, but when it does it puts immediate pressure on your opponent's team with its power and coverage. I also like AV Metagross, it has a nice match-up vs some top threats although I would like it more if it got Knock Off. Clear Body + the threat of Ice Punch make switching Lando in blindly a risky play. Toxic Spikes Beedrill would be cool if it had a better match-up vs. Pokemon like Mega Diancie and Skarmory, but alas, C rank is probably appropriate for it. At least it scares out the Lati twins.

 

[tigers jaw]

pls can we not have the pitchforks out people. 100% deadly accurate "haha killed em gud" responses to (no offence) uninformed/mostly insipid posts are futile other than to flexxxx and pray for likes

though i do think mega pert is shit (made an extended post on it waaaaaay back, and it still stands now)

In an attempt to add some real content to this post, I'd like to know how people feel about Victini. Ebelt is an incredible lure/breaker vs. your standard defensive cores (not many teams can handle Fire/Ice/Electric/Grass). Glaciate is a fucking blessing as it eases prediction so so much. Even unboosted, V-create hits as hard as fuck. I think it's superior to the whole of C+ and B- (except Celebi which imo doesn't deserve to be that low but that is for another post). I know this is anecdotal as it stands, but I've had so many games in which my opponent's team has just crumbled before Victini. This isn't a nomination, as I currently have no replays, but I'll add replays either later tonight, or tomorrow.