ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

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eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
Small nitpick, but chesnaught and rose Rade just kinda glare at eachother menacingly since bulletproof means neither can touch the other. No real thoughts on the nomination itself but not too excited about the idea.
To be fair, you can have Chesnaught run Aerial Ace and Roserade run Hidden Power Poison, but I'm retarded, so moving on. Furthermore, Bulky Froslass has been used on some Balance teams back in Gen V to compress SpinBlocker and Spike Setter into one role, but I digress.

I think Roserade has some reason for a rise in the UU Viability Rankings. As people have pointed out, Bulky Offense is a relatively dominant playstyle in UU. Furthermore, Pokemon such as Swampert and other defensive Pokemon are coming back into the scene. Roserade's 125 Special Attack and combination of STABs nails some big defensive contenders, such as Swampert, Florges, and other things.
 

Adaam

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Don't really have a strong opinion on Roserade but I don't really see what changed much in its favor. The most used mons besides Florges don't really care about it, which includes Salamence, Mamoswine, Forry (bar HP Fire), Crobat, Aerodactyl, Beedrill, Cobalion, Krookodile, Azelf, and Empoleon (defogs stacked hazards) are all top 15 in usage and they all give Roserade a hard time. Sure you can argue Zapdos will decrease stuff like Crobat, Empoleon, Forry, and Cobalion, but you could also argue fat water usage will decrease as well. Zapdos also is a minor annoyance due to Defog + Heat Wave. It isn't a hard counter but nonetheless it provides another hazard remover to UU.

Florges + Cune cores have been here forever, so Roserade shouldn't move up on its ability to beat them.
 
Don't really have an opinion on Porygon-Z, it is a nuke that breaks most defensive teams and destroys offense with very little effort needed, but needs free switch-in opportunities due to its slightly lackluster bulk. In my opinion, Raise it to A-

Roserade should not rise to A-, sure it has good variety of sets. But I don't think the fall of Zapdos did it any good, as it does the breaking bulky waters job better, and also is a great rose check. But Rose has a ton of checks in A+ and S right now, most of which it can't do a thing to, those being Maero, Reuniclus, Salamence, Hydrei, Bee, Entei, Mamo, and Coba all check it to a great extent. Zapdos is also another defogger that can ruin it's day. Keep it B+

Now it is time for a nomination of my own.

Heliolisk from B+ -> B:

With the drop of Zapdos, I have tried to use this a few times, and every time I do, I wonder "Why am I not using Zapdos?"

Of course Lisk has a few things over Zapdos, a usable secondary stab, water absorb, and 9 more speed. But the main thing Heliolisk lacks are power, bulk, and an inability to actually switch in to anything that isn't a water or ghost type move.

Heliolisk's 9 extra speed really do nothing for it, as there is nothing relevant it outspeeds with that 9 extra base speed, going through the speed tiers, the only thing we find is Boostless Mega-Sharpedo (which really never happens.) And that's it, nothing else. While Zapdos still has the ability to hit every relevant thing that Lisk does. Even when Zapdos invests a little more in bulk than speed.

Heliolisk does have good coverage options, but its lack of coverage against steels leaves it walled by things such as Cobalion and Doublade, which Zapdos can easily beat with Heat wave.

Heliolisks surf is generally a nice option to hit grounds, but Zapdos can still hit most grounds with HP grass, particularly things like Pert, which surf is neutral against.

Zapdos also fits into teams a lot better by a much larger variety in sets, as well as benefits like a ground immunity, fighting resist, grass resist, etc. and viable recovery.

Finally, As dos becomes more and more common, people put dos checks on their team, which means that they put lisk checks on their team unintentionally. Making lisk's life much harder, and making it less valuable when building a team.

tldr; Lower Heliolisk to B
 

MrAldo

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Gonna defend heliolisk on this one

While it has an awkward typing combination, you underestimate how important dry skin is in this mon, especially one that can offensive check water types pretty profficiently. Idk, why you say walled by cobalion and doublade when these 2 take a HUGE chunk for thunderbolt

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 222-263 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 192-227 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not like heliolisk can switch into them but damn, thats far from getting walled. If anything, heliolisk is an offensive doublade check.

Its speed tier gets over a ton of important benchmarks like cobalion, not speed tieing with salamence, shaymin, modest sceptile before mega evolving and mienshao is pretty important. Funnily enough, heliolisk makes a pretty good partner for zapdos since they both can overwhelm each other checks really well since heliolisk has far better coverage than zapdos with hyper voice, grass knot, surf, focus blast and dark pulse.

Heliolisk is a pretty solid B+ mon in my eyes. Being a really solid suicune and water check, neat offensive pivot with neat coverage that can fit specific team needs. I dont see it dropping at all, rotom-c is the one that suffers the most with zapdos presence, not heliolisk.

Zapdos is a more solid option all things considered, but heliolisk is still a pretty good option.
 
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Don't really have an opinion on Porygon-Z, it is a nuke that breaks most defensive teams and destroys offense with very little effort needed, but needs free switch-in opportunities due to its slightly lackluster bulk. In my opinion, Raise it to A-

Roserade should not rise to A-, sure it has good variety of sets. But I don't think the fall of Zapdos did it any good, as it does the breaking bulky waters job better, and also is a great rose check. But Rose has a ton of checks in A+ and S right now, most of which it can't do a thing to, those being Maero, Reuniclus, Salamence, Hydrei, Bee, Entei, Mamo, and Coba all check it to a great extent. Zapdos is also another defogger that can ruin it's day. Keep it B+

Now it is time for a nomination of my own.

Heliolisk from B+ -> B:

With the drop of Zapdos, I have tried to use this a few times, and every time I do, I wonder "Why am I not using Zapdos?"

Of course Lisk has a few things over Zapdos, a usable secondary stab, water absorb, and 9 more speed. But the main thing Heliolisk lacks are power, bulk, and an inability to actually switch in to anything that isn't a water or ghost type move.

Heliolisk's 9 extra speed really do nothing for it, as there is nothing relevant it outspeeds with that 9 extra base speed, going through the speed tiers, the only thing we find is Boostless Mega-Sharpedo (which really never happens.) And that's it, nothing else. While Zapdos still has the ability to hit every relevant thing that Lisk does. Even when Zapdos invests a little more in bulk than speed.

Heliolisk does have good coverage options, but its lack of coverage against steels leaves it walled by things such as Cobalion and Doublade, which Zapdos can easily beat with Heat wave.

Heliolisks surf is generally a nice option to hit grounds, but Zapdos can still hit most grounds with HP grass, particularly things like Pert, which surf is neutral against.

Zapdos also fits into teams a lot better by a much larger variety in sets, as well as benefits like a ground immunity, fighting resist, grass resist, etc. and viable recovery.

Finally, As dos becomes more and more common, people put dos checks on their team, which means that they put lisk checks on their team unintentionally. Making lisk's life much harder, and making it less valuable when building a team.

tldr; Lower Heliolisk to B
I agree with everything that MrAldo said, but I want to add more. The thing that allows Heliolisk to stay at B+ is its ability to gain momentum, it hits very hard, and is way better on voltturn, as its speed tier is very important, as Zapdos sits at the very common 100 speed tier. Zapdos is also weak to rocks, a big downfall that heliolisk doesnt have to worry about. Heliolisk also has much better coverage options than zapdos, Zapdos can run Thunderbolt, heat wave, and an hp, which every other mon can as well. Heliolisk can run so much more, including t-bolt, hyper voice, surf, grass knot, focus blast, dark pulse, dragon pulse, signal beam, etc etc. It just has such insane coverage. This allows heliolisk to not be walled by so much, and be more of a threat offensively. Heliolisk also usually does a different job than zapdos anyway, zapdos is usually defensive while Heliolisk is offensive. Heliolisk also has the amazing ability in dry skin, allowing it to function as the perfect suicune check, as well as being able to switch into water attacks, some that Zapdos sometimes cant switch into, and this also allows Heliolisk to be a VERY valuable member on rain, as it eliminates its life orb recoil and allow it to hit Thunder all the time, doing massive amounts of damage while paralyzing things as well.

This is why I think Heliolisk should stay at B+, It is just such a useful mon. Thank you! =)
 
Talking about electric and grass types, I like to discuss something Mr. Aldo mentioned, that is Rotom-C viability after Zapdos drop. I'm on mobile so I cant actually expand my thoughts, but Zapdos access to recovery, better speed tie, good SpA and all the coverage Rotom-C have makes it a better choice most of the time, if not at all. Tomorrow I'll get home and I can argue more, but at a first look it seems a reasonable drop for me.
 
Zapdos definitely brings a number of things to the table that its fellow Electric-types couldn't even dream of, most notably reliable recovery and access to Defog. However, after playing with a number of different Zapdos sets, I can see how its peers can still sometimes outshine it. The way I see it, Zapdos is definitely the best Electric-type on Balance and anything more defensive than that, thanks to its great typing and decent support movepool. While I do think it's good on offense, Heliolisk can still outshine it sometimes. The primary factors here are speed and coverage, since Zapdos can hit just as hard as Heliolisk. Zapdos has a somewhat awkward coverage situation, in that its main choice is a choice between Hidden Powers (Grass or Ice). Besides that, it may also want to run Volt Switch, Roost, or Defog, on top of the obligatory Thunderbolt and Heat Wave. Heliolisk, meanwhile, typically has no trouble fitting great offensive coverage on any given set, mostly thanks to Hyper Voice, a move whose relative lack of resists rounds out the rest of its coverage options very nicely. Plus, as mentioned before, there's that extra Speed, which lets you avoid the cluttered base 100 speed tier while also getting the jump on Cobalion and Infernape, among others. A Water immunity and neutrality to Stealth Rock mean that Heliolisk can sometimes come in where Zapdos can't.

TLDR: In my opinion, Heliolisk should probably stay at B+ for the time being, because there are many situations in which its better coverage and Speed stat make it a better choice than Zapdos, mostly on offensive teams. I'm in no way suggesting that Zapdos isn't the dominant Electric-type in the tier right now (because it is), but we should remember that it isn't the only one. Thanks for reading, sorry if it got too rambly.

EDIT: I don't really have enough experience with Rotom-Mow to give a long explanation, but I'm leaning towards dropping it as well.
 
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Whimsicott from A to A+

This thing is a monster. Two of the best stabs in the game, a trolly 116 speed and prankster? This guy destroys setup sweepers and paralyzes common switch ins such as Crobat and Cobalion with Stun Spore. It eats knock offs, has relatively good staying power with lefties and giga drain, and punishes all of the current S Ranked mons. Your opponent never knows whats coming, as Whimsicott has unique priority Encore, Stun Spore, Taunt, Leech Seed, Substitute, etc. I think Whimsicott is the best mon in the meta, and surely is at least A+, fearing only things like poison, Doublade, and other steel types. While Heal Bell and Aromatherapy do exist in a tier, that takes a turn to use which allows you to setup one of your own pokemon. Over the long haul in a match, this can eventually turn into two turns due to RNG paralysis, which is sometimes enough time to setup your own sweeper late game to finish. While it is possible to play around Whimsicott, it alters opponent strategies because of priority encore and this is the one mon in the tier you do not want to be left unprepared for.

*Edit - A to A+ instead of S
 

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You are heavily overrating Whimsicott's values and not even stating its downsides besides 'Toxic and Doublade'. Firstly, Whimsicott has a case of 4MSS, as like you said, it wants Encore, Stun Spore, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, Moonblast, HP Fire, U-Turn, Taunt, Tailwind and probably some more things. Secondly, while Whimsicott's typing does give it a good match-up against the good amount of Water and Dragon types in the tier, it also leaves it with a weakness to the plenty of Poison and Ice types in the tier, as well as Fire type coverage, especially due to its below-average 60/85/75 defenses. And offensively it isn't that good, as both of its STAB is resisted by Fire, Poison, and Steel, and thanks to Whimsicott's low 75 SpA, unless you are hitting something for super effective damage, you aren't hitting that hard.
252 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-C: 103-123 (42.7 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
Also you are overvaluing the value of Stun Spore, because, while yes it is a good move and can be very infuriating, is still kinda unreliable because of its Focus Blast like accuracy of 75%, plus it gives free switch ins to Grass and Electric types like Zapdos, Mega Abomasnow, and Shaymin, and even some Ground types like Nidoking/queen and M-Camerupt.

Yeah, Whimsicott is pretty good, but definitely not S rank, let alone 'the best mon in the meta'.
 
Pardon the nitpick, Stun Spore does paralyze Ground-types. Ground-types are immune to Thunder Wave due to type-based immunity, ditto Grass-types and Stun Spore. Electric-types get sole custody of blanket paralysis immunity.

Agreed with the rest of the post, though, Grass/Fairy is a poor STAB combination (they share three resists that are not uncommon) and Whimsicott's poor stats exacerbates its 4MSS. Still a good Pokemon, though.
 

Serene Grace

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Bottom line is that Whimsicott is a very good support mon, in fact its probably the best support mon, but that is not enough to put it S rank. Whimsicott will never sweep teams, Whimsicott will never dictate the entire flow of the game, Whimsicott will never force people to run Whimsicott counters specifically for Whimsicott. Add in the fact that it is pitifully weak, gets worn down way too easily and has mediocre bulk (albeit backed up by good typing), Whimsicott is no where close to S rank material and should stay at its current rank.
 
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Okay, so maybe not the best, but definitely the most versatile. Also, Whimsicott isn't supposed to sweep teams, but yes he does dictate the flow very consistently. Opponents must always be wary of his presence, sort of like Magic Bouncers.
 
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actau
Okay, so maybe not the best, but definitely the most versatile. Also, Whimsicott isn't supposed to sweep teams, but yes he does dictate the flow very consistently. Opponents must always be wary of his presence, sort of like Magic Bouncers. He is an S ranked support pokemon
yea No whimiscott is definetly not the most versatile mon in the tier when salamence exist whimiscott is worn down to easily, 4x weakness to poison is not good, while it is one of the best support mons available and i see it ranking up more than the other mons in A whimiscott defintely does not need to be S rank
 
"4x weakness to poison is not good"

Yeah, neither is Salamence's 4x weakness to Ice. Lets go over Whimsicott's weaknesses (except Doublade, who outright will always beat Whimsicott)

Poison: Mega Beedrill - A paralyzed Beedrill is basically a kill
Nidos - Encores after switching in on any non poison attack

Fire: Darmanitan - Basically killed after getting paralyzed
Entei - Limited to only extreme speed after paralyzed, which involves him switching after using sacred fire (assume CB). Costs 25% damage plus gives user momentum
Infernape - Also hates paralysis. Takes half damage from Moonblast

Steel - Lucario - see Infernape.
Cobalion - Again, hates paralysis, but not as badly. Put him in Doublade tier.
Empoleon - Switch with little penalty

Aerodactyl - Again, paralysis
Etc, etc
Whimsicott can also, you know, switch instead of paralysis saccing. You must do what is best with your current team and match situation.

Opponent: Does he have U-Turn? Will he encore me or Stun Spore me? Should I switch or not?

These are all at least 50/50 scenarios. Add in the fact that Whimsicott destroys the many bulky waters and rampant dragons in the tier, and you have one of the best mons in the game. Setting up when the user has a Whimsicott is basically impossible as well. No, Whimsicott is not meant to sweep things, but Whimsicott can put good dents on various mons and can clean late game.

I haven't even touched upon anti lead sets with Taunt, or more niche sets like Sub LeechSeed and TailWind.

I think you guys are underestimating Prankster. On that note, I will change my argument to moving Whimsicott from A to A+. Looking at the A and A+ mons, Whimsicott seems to fit better with the A+ mons.
 
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Yes whimsicott should be a poke to be weary of, every poke in A+ and most in A people should be weary of, whimsicott is an annoyance, yes it's a great support mon, is it the best? i don't really care, just because it can be the best at something doesn't make it S Rank material, it just means it's high class common pick. its support is great and handy, but like others have said it has 4MSS, it wants to help in this way but then wants help in another way but doesn't want to be walled by this and that, it struggles to find room for anything it wants making it a very team specific poke, as in it'll be great against this team but wont be that good against this type of team, it picks in its moves of what it will be good against. Also whimsicott's typing is a double-edged swords, it resists a lot but look at what its weak against, its weak to so many common types/moves and extremely weak to ANY status inflicted onto it since it has no reliable recovery which forces the cotton ball to struggle on getting switched in safely. whimsicott also is not as meta defining as the other pokes in S like mence and suicune and A+ mons like cobalion. yes i can see it moving up but not to S Rank.
 

Hogg

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...there's no way that Whimsicott is anything close to S rank. Even A+ is way too much of a stretch for Whimsi.

It's a fantastic pivot for offensive teams thanks to that typing (Fairies are broken, what else is new), but it relies almost solely on that typing to get anything done. Its bulk and offenses are incredibly mediocre, and thanks to its lack of reliable recovery it heavily struggles to check threats consistently over a longer game. Our meta has shifted to heavily favor slower, harder hitting 'mons (see: the decline of Scarf 'mons, the increase of heavy wallbreakers like LO Hydreigon, etc.) that Whimsicott struggles against. I mean, it gets pretty consistently 3HKO'd by most of the 'mons it's supposed to check (Hydreigon, Mega Sceptile, Feraligatr, Krook, etc.). That's not really a big deal for an offensive team, since mostly they only worry about checking most threats once or twice in a game, but it means that Whimsicott is often unsuitable for bulkier and more balanced teams.

Also, "you can sac it to paralyze the stuff that it beats!!" is not really a good argument. Yes, Beedrill or Aero hates paralysis, but that paralysis sac is a 50/50 since it's usually crazy predictable - not to mention the fact that sacking your defensive pivot to check a single threat is often a pretty bad trade. Stun Spore is a useful tool, but it's not enough to bump it up a rank (and largely it's less reliable than Encore, so you typically need to drop coverage to run it).

TL;DR: Whimsi is useful but limited, and is hard to fit onto non-offensive teams over more reliable choices such as Florges.

(Pixie Plate and Specs Whimsi are a lot of fun, though...)
 

Adaam

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To ride off of Hogg's coattails, it doesn't help that many of the things Whims is supposed to check has coverage to cripple it. Gatr has Ice Punch, Hydra has Fire Blast and Flash Cannon, Mence has FB and Iron Tail, Sharpedo has Ice Fang etc making it a shaky at best check to these threats
 
To ride off of Hogg's coattails, it doesn't help that many of the things Whims is supposed to check has coverage to cripple it. Gatr has Ice Punch, Hydra has Fire Blast and Flash Cannon, Mence has FB and Iron Tail, Sharpedo has Ice Fang etc making it a shaky at best check to these threats
So you paralyze them.
 
"4x weakness to poison is not good"

Yeah, neither is Salamence's 4x weakness to Ice. Lets go over Whimsicott's weaknesses (except Doublade, who outright will always beat Whimsicott)

Poison: Mega Beedrill - A paralyzed Beedrill is basically a kill
Nidos - Encores after switching in on any non poison attack

Fire: Darmanitan - Basically killed after getting paralyzed
Entei - Limited to only extreme speed after paralyzed, which involves him switching after using sacred fire (assume CB). Costs 25% damage plus gives user momentum
Infernape - Also hates paralysis. Takes half damage from Moonblast

Steel - Lucario - see Infernape.
Cobalion - Again, hates paralysis, but not as badly. Put him in Doublade tier.
Empoleon - Switch with little penalty

Aerodactyl - Again, paralysis
Etc, etc
Whimsicott can also, you know, switch instead of paralysis saccing. You must do what is best with your current team and match situation.

Opponent: Does he have U-Turn? Will he encore me or Stun Spore me? Should I switch or not?

These are all at least 50/50 scenarios. Add in the fact that Whimsicott destroys the many bulky waters and rampant dragons in the tier, and you have one of the best mons in the game. Setting up when the user has a Whimsicott is basically impossible as well. No, Whimsicott is not meant to sweep things, but Whimsicott can put good dents on various mons and can clean late game.

I haven't even touched upon anti lead sets with Taunt, or more niche sets like Sub LeechSeed and TailWind.

I think you guys are underestimating Prankster. On that note, I will change my argument to moving Whimsicott from A to A+. Looking at the A and A+ mons, Whimsicott seems to fit better with the A+ mons.
i never said a 4x weakness to ice was good but yea whimiscott can always paralyze its weakness but its basically killing itself to take down a threat cause even if their paralyzed if they get to move whimiscott is basically dead, and if stun spore misses what do u do now, u cant say whimiscott is more versatile than salamence even if their complete opposites because the thing is salamence can do many roles and do each of them extremely well, while whimiscott can do more than one roles but cant perform all of them extremely well.
 
I don't know what you're talking about with it not being flexible. Subseed, Encore, Para, Offensive with either specs or pixie plate, momento, even something stupid like sub cotton guard are all things, and most it performs well. It's a huge threat in the hands of a competent player. It just tends to play more of a supporting role because of the massive movepool and variety it has, and does 90% of those aforementioned jobs incredibly well, or weakens whatever might be a threat through para and moonblast so that something else might be able to come in and kill it.

I'm not saying I support it to S, but it's by no means inflexible.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
Why is everyone arguing paralysis when Whimsicott's greatest advantage is Prankster Encore? Whimsicott threatens Offensive teams with set-up Pokemon very well. As hogg mentioned before, the meta is shifting to Wallbreakers to beat Bulky Offense, which doesn't benefit Whims very well.
 

Okay, I think we should stop talking about Whimsicott forever and move on to something that should be being discussed, and something that dodmen and many others have proposed....
Jellicent to A- Rank!

I really think this is a great stop for Jellicent, as it is REALLY good right now and check so much of the current meta. The defensive typing on this thing is dank. It basically walls Infernape, Coballion, Toxicroak, and sadly my favorite mon, Accelgor.... like totally haha. etc etc. This thing is also coming along great as a spinblocker, as many hazard stacking teams feel like they need to use either Doublade or Chandelure. I dont want to go into full detail about why I really like this mon and how it should be in A- rank, I want to hear what you guys have to say, and change the conversation. =)

Thank you very much!
 

Okay, I think we should stop talking about Whimsicott forever and move on to something that should be being discussed, and something that dodmen and many others have proposed....
Jellicent to A- Rank!

I really think this is a great stop for Jellicent, as it is REALLY good right now and check so much of the current meta. The defensive typing on this thing is dank. It basically walls Infernape, Coballion, Toxicroak, and sadly my favorite mon, Accelgor.... like totally haha. etc etc. This thing is also coming along great as a spinblocker, as many hazard stacking teams feel like they need to use either Doublade or Chandelure. I dont want to go into full detail about why I really like this mon and how it should be in A- rank, I want to hear what you guys have to say, and change the conversation. =)

Thank you very much!
jellicent moving to a- shouldnt be a dicussion everybody basically agreed that it should move up
 
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