ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

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Thisbemyalt

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The only drop I really feel strongly about is sableye, and I think all of you except dingbat(<3) are really underselling it. Sable is such a strong support mon it is ridiculous, knock off taunt will o and recover is such a great set in our meta it isn't even funny. It has the capabilities to stall break, cripple walls, spin block, and spread burn against more offensive teams which is huge in a meta full of strong physical sweepers. Now spin blocking is a really cool trait with sableye since it is the only pokemon who can block stoise (Non hpump variants and even then it has to predict switch so it can't be brought too low to effectively spin) and can even prevent defog through taunt which makes spikes an even better strat than it was before the drops, it is by no means a massively better playstyle just because of sableye but this addition does certainly make it harder to beat. I would say sable deserves a beginning rank of A-.

Other then that I would say the only viable drops (or at least above C-) are gonna be gard and meta, both will bring some cool sets which will all be fun to use I am sure. I would say to maybe start both at B/B+ but I would say meta over gard, this is just an assumption but I think meta will be overall more common and better in this meta.

As for the rest drop em in C- or D and call it a day, Veno might be cool as sun sweeper but I don't see it being good in any other role.
 
I get the metagross hype but after dicking around with it to a certain degree i found that it really wasn't worth it. Its weakness to dark, ghost, fire and ground are detrimental in a tier list filled with pokemon like entei, arcanine, KrooK, Chandy, Swampert, and the plethora of pokes who run Knock off as a coverage move, which would ultimately leave metagross with a huge dent in a pokemon it would have otherwise been able to check or counter. Far too often i found myself facing against teams who had multiple answers to deal with metagross and the support that I found myself levying to make up for metas flaws far outweighed any benefit i got from using it. On top of that the offensive sets suffer from poor coverage and as a whole he suffers from 4mss
 
Gardevoir is a great mon, and the drop I am the most excited about, being an offensive fairy is killer in a meta with a lot dragons such as Salamence, Hydreigon, and Kyurem roaming around. Scarf is a pretty good revenge-killer and a great mon against offense. On the other hand, LO, or specs (I have tried both btw) break apart slower teams with ease,
252 SpA Life Orb Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 300-355 (42 - 49.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Slowking: 152-179 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery-Can't really do much back
252 SpA Life Orb Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 169-200 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Gardevoir does have a few problems, such as its low defense, HP, and speed, but can rip holes in most teams right now with Moonblast/psyshock/FB/ and shadow ball or healing wish. B+ sums up it's potential right now.

Metagross is a mon that I'm not really liking, it hits hard, but can't really do much else, B-/B suits it. As well as it's weaknesses to many good offensive types (Dark/Ground/Fire/Ghost) paired with average speed make it a liability against offense, and it never has really pulled its weight for me on a team, ever.

Sab is cool, but annoying Put it at B for now.

Kyurem seriously needs to move up to A (below Chandy, above stoise) As most teams horribly underprepare for it, meaning it can destroy nearly every playstyle with a myriad of sets, such as Specs, Scarf, LO, SubRoost, and lefties. It's dual stabs hit incredibly hard, and things that wall it are beaten by FB/Earth power coverage. Specs can decimate both offense and defensive teams with incredible ease, and that set in particular, is nearly unwallable.

It still has its problems, like a sr weakness. But it's pros far outweigh its cons.

Tldr; Move it up to A rank
 
Charizard -> C-: This is more or less a sun-exclusive mon, but its Choice Scarf set is just way effective to just be D rank. ScarfZard really outshines other special Fire types like Chandelure and Moltres on sun thanks to the power with Solar Power and base 100 Speed to get past stuff like Scarf Hydreigon, Mega Beedrill and Mega Aero. It also can run a mixed set with Flare Blitz to lure Blissey while still having good cleaning potential. It's an awesome and effective cleaner for sun teams, though it clearing Stealth Rock for it can be annoying sometimes and Flash Fire Chandy is a butt.

Its other sets aren't very effective unfortunately, though I haven't used Specs yet because I'm afraid of sucking against offense, which seems to be really popular right now. Most special sets are outshined by Moltres for the most part from my experience and physical sets either can't set up or don't sweep well. Swords Dance + Roost can wallbreak pretty well though, and, in spite of the competition from Fletchinder, the extra coverage move, bulk and damage output give it a niche. C- rank is perfect for this. No higher and no lower imo.
Requires way too much support to be used. you have to give it sun, rapid spin/defog, and a way to weaken water types (yes, it has solar beam. but its unreliable, esp if you predict wrong and get locked into it). There are other scarf users out there that can do the same thing but not suck. The second set you listed is hard-walled by bulky waters (and uu isn't missing any of that). good luck getting a swords dance. and even if you somehow do, charizard can't touch bulky water types and it isn't too difficult to outspeed and revenge kill. charizard has never been good. regular charizard has always been bad. never was good. never will be. use moltres. D-rank.
 
Requires way too much support to be used. you have to give it sun, rapid spin/defog, and a way to weaken water types (yes, it has solar beam. but its unreliable, esp if you predict wrong and get locked into it). There are other scarf users out there that can do the same thing but not suck. The second set you listed is hard-walled by bulky waters (and uu isn't missing any of that). good luck getting a swords dance. and even if you somehow do, charizard can't touch bulky water types and it isn't too difficult to outspeed and revenge kill. charizard has never been good. regular charizard has always been bad. never was good. never will be. use moltres. D-rank.
It's way more easy to support in practice really. Venusaur beats the Waters for it and Whimsicott is a secondary option to deal with Water-types while being one of the best sun setters. Zard is more of a late-game cleaner for Sun teams anyway so having to deal with a couple fire resists isn't that bad. It's also good for Zard that most relevant bulky Waters in the tier don't have reliable recovery, so as long as they're below 40-50% health or so, Zard can clean up. Flash Fire Chandy is a much bigger issue since it's outright immune.

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune in Sun: 158-186 (39.1 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in Sun: 186-220 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in Sun: 186-220 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola in Sun: 318-375 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diancie in Sun: 126-148 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Salamence in Sun: 239-282 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence in Sun: 214-252 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos in Sun: 165-194 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise in Sun: 159-187 (44.4 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise in Sun: 159-187 (46 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 204 HP / 56 SpD Vaporeon in Sun: 175-207 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Sun: 195-229 (60 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan in Sun: 286-337 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei in Sun: 225-266 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Entei in Sun: 150-177 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Feraligatr in Sun: 200-236 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Swampert in Sun: 164-193 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert in Sun: 165-194 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert in Sun: 195-230 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Thick Fat Snorlax in Sun: 129-153 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- 99.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (yeah this needs to be gone)

252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Sun: 84-99 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock (and this too of course)

SP ScarfZard does tons of work against offense since Fire Blast/Flamethrower under the Sun just destroys any team that's weakened enough and balance teams fear it too. Haven't faced Stall with it quite yet, so it's probably bad there, I'd imagine that Venu or Victreebel could carry against Stall.

I used Swords Dance + Roost some more after I made that post and was still pretty pleased with it. It tends to put in work each game and its Acrobatics is pretty spammable for the most part. Double STABs works well with it. It works well in cores with (Mega) Sharpedo, Feraligatr and Salamence in particular by beating Fairies and wearing down bulky waters with Acro (note that I said wear down, not KO) to make sweeping for its teammate easier. Still not that great, but effective enough to be considered alongside the more notable Scarf SP set.

If I'm not very convincing, I'll try to gather replays in the coming days when replays aren't down and I'm bored from college.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

On to new Horizons!
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First of all, kudos to the ranking team for the Viability Rank overhaul. I like this new list and I feel it's a much more accurate representation of viability in this metagame. Good job, guys.

Now, I'll post my perspective on the drops:

Sableye is a real pain in the ass. I feel like putting it in the B Ranks is really underselling how much of a prick it is, because it has a lot of useful roles and in general is a prick to face. Physical attackers will find that facing this thing is a pain because they will end up eating a priority Will-O-Wisp which is a pain, and Sableye also has reliable recovery in Recover. This makes it a pain in the ass to take down for physical attackers especially on offensive teams, and having priority burns to be frank is useful. It has a lot of things it can do on a team: it can stallbreak since it has priority Taunt, as well as WoW and Recover to hinder defensive mons by stopping non-damage shenanigans and spreading burns while healing itself. Knock Off or Foul Play are both good as attacks since the former knocks off items while the latter hits physical attackers fairly hard. As said above, it can spinblock which is great for Spikes offense (Froslass ahem) and the only thing it probably can't beat for spinblocking is Hydro Pump Mega Blastoise. It's a good spinblocker that can also stallbreak, and cripple physical attackers making them much less of a threat. It's true that Fairies are a problem for it, but then again, that's what teammates are for (and you should have a way to beat Fairies anyways). It should be A- imo because its roles are very useful and it's almost guaranteed to be a prick. Not to mention Reuniclus is very common atm which makes Sableye all the more useful.

Metagross....Hmmm. I like this thing a lot. It has a lot of useful roles: it checks Fairies, it can hit hard as hell, it switches into Salamence's Outrage and checks some strong shit in general. With different sets it can perform some good roles, such as wallbreaking (CB and Mixed), setting up Rocks (Tank), or late-game cleaning (AgiliGross), or just a tank in general (AV). However...my experience so far with using it tells me that...it kinda sucks. Bulky Waters being so common in this tier is a big problem for Metagross because it doesn't have much of a way to bypass them unless you're using MixGross with Grass Knot. Krookodile is also very common, as is Knock Off as a move in general. Its weaknesses are very exploitable as it's beaten by a fair number of threats such as Krookodile, Hydreigon, Entei, Chandelure, etc. It's also depressingly slow which means that it's outpaced by a large portion of the meta. It also hates burns which wear it down pretty fast and hamper its ability to hit hard, and those are common with Scald and WoW being everywhere. Not having any recovery does suck too. Steel also really isn't that great of an offensive type, as Meteor Mash can be sponged by bulky Waters, Mega Aggron and Doublade, and more, while Metagross's movepool is fairly limited. I think it belongs in B Rank, maybe B- depending on what you guys think. It does provide a lot of good things to the table, such as being a bulky offensive SR user that hits hard, a late-game cleaner, or a potentially good bulky wallbreaker that hits hard as hell, all the while being able to check things like Florges, Reuniclus, and more. Its AV set also is a pain to take down with special attackers and hits decently hard. However, even though it has fairly solid niches, it also has substantial flaws which I feel makes its use somewhat limited in the tier.

Gardevoir on the other hand is an interesting case. It's an offensive Fairy, which to be frank is pretty neat. It has a fair amount of flaws but it has some really nice qualities. Its Scarf set is a neat revenge killer as Fairy STAB is slick and having Psychic to hit the Nidos and Tentacruel is an asset to have too. It can revenge a good deal of Pokemon such as non-Scarf Heracross, Nidos, Azelf, Krookodile, and more. A Scarf Moonblast hits the prominent Salamence and Hydreigon pretty hard too. Scarf Healing Wish is also an incredible asset as this allows it to sack itself quickly and instantly heal a teammate: fully healing something brutal like Salamence is incredible and something that allows such Pokemon to be that much more scary. Its LO sets seem good against slower teams, and Fairy STAB and a great offensive movepool are nice to have too to allow it to use Focus Blast to hit Mega Aggron and such. Trace is also a great ability which allows it to trace some good abilities, such as Sheer Force from Nidoqueen, and Gardevoir can really take advantage of that to add extra "oomph" to its attacks, since most of its good moves have the Sheer Force boost. That's just one example of where Trace can be useful. You can also trace Swift Swim from Swampert to revenge it too. Psyshock is great to bypass Blissey and Florges while Focus Blast allows it to crush Mega Aggron, or Shadow Ball to hit Doublade and Metagross. Overall it's a pretty solid Pokemon with great coverage and utility, and having Trace and Healing Wish make it a decent asset. Too bad it's very frail and 80 Speed is disappointing, but I feel its qualities as an offensive Fairy with Scarf or as a wallbreaker with LO and be able to tear holes through teams makes it fit somewhere in B or B+ Rank.

Everything else is just shit and will probably drop to RU soon, including Diancie. Diancie might be able to achieve C- Rank for its Trick Room set but outside of that it's really shitty.
 

Kink

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I've played with Gardevoir and Metagross quite a bit over the last couple days, respectively, and I'm finding unique things to say about both when compared to the rest of our tier.

Metagross is a scary banded Wallbreaker and cleaner. A hard check to Florges really gives multiple opportunities for Metagross to find usefulness in any scenario that faces off against the flower. Having a tremendously subpar Speed stat, however, means that Metagross can't reliably use its defensive bulk to take a couple physical hits since so many EVs need to go into Speed in order to check defensive Arcanine, the defensive Rotoms, and slower Queen/Stoise variants that have become more popular as of late. this being said, weakness to the prevalent Sucker Punch and ever-dangerous Pursuit means that Metagross needs to be carefully utilized, otherwise fall prematurely. Agiligross w/ LO is bound to make a return eventually. Given this foundation, it would be fair to award Metagross a lower/mid B+, and take it from there; it will be a little while before the meta fully adapts Metagross's potential. Once we see this happen, and the subsequent responses from the meta, I'm sure we'll have a far more conducive discussion.

Gardevoir tends to fall in the same boat; specs hits absurdly hard, but base 80 Speed is such a terrible curse in the UU tier, which can't even outspeed Mega Bee, Mega Sceptile, or Mega Aero with a Choice Scarf (I've always found this so profoundly sad). One would a assume that an additional fairy-typing would give Gardevoir a better chance in our tier, and that would be true if its defensive stat wasn't complete and utter shit. The offensive set cannot switch to resists more than once, if at all; banded HJK from a Mienshao 2hkos, banded Heracross has a 46.5% to 2HKO after rocks when using Close Combat, which is really scary for a x4 resist. Also a +1 Salamence doesn't need to rely on Iron Tail; Earthquake OHKOs 87.5% of the time after Stealth Rock, which is the same chance for Lucario's non-boosted LO Bullet Punch. Yeah, this thing is frail as shit. However, not all is bad for Gardevoir. Its access to dual STAB that hit different Pokemon is immensely rewarding if the appropriate pivots are used, and it'll almost always score you either a 2HKO, or massive damage against a mon that probably won't survive a second dance. A Fairy-typing also removes Gardevoir's weakness to Pursuit, although CB Krook still OHKOs it after Stealth Rock, so be sharp. Given these considerations, I think it would be wise to place Gardevoir in the mid-upper Bs, and take it from there. Part of me wonders if Wish or Calm Mind will have any use down the road, but I remain sceptical.
 
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I like Metagross as a pokemon a lot, but find it entirely underwhelming in this tier. It functions incredibly poorly, in my opinion, as either a breaker or a sweeper. For reference, the variations I've tried out thus far are: SR + 3 atks ada, Colbur Agility 3tks ada, AV 4 atks, HC 3 atks.

When using a pokemon in UU as a physical wallbreaker or sweeper/cleaner, it's success and viability is depending on how it matches up against Suicune, Florges, Doublade and Cresselia (to a lesser extent, mons like MAggron). Those four are the most important though, because they're the ones that will outright stop a sweep from team preview unless you manage to appropriately weaken or eliminate them earlier on in the match. Three of them have reliable recovery, Doublade has enough defenses + offensive pressure that giving it free turns can be incredibly problematic (especially for an offensive team) if you don't have an appropriate hard check (Hydreigon, PZ).

While Metagross doesn't struggle against Florges in the same way Doublade does (extremely limited switchins without Wish support), it's rarely if ever going to actually get to hit Florges itself. Steel is an utterly terrible spammable attacking type when it comes to UU considering how ubiquitous Suicune is. Zen Headbutt adds a bit of coverage, but it's still not terribly great. Point being, when faced up against those walls, it straight up struggles to break anything that isn't explicitly weak to its STABs. Compare instead to a mon like Cobalion - it can boost fast enough to break Suicune, can Taunt and setup on Cresselia, outright beats Florges (though takes more damage from it) and loses to Doublade. That sort of performance is far better than Metagross which loses to Cune, can potentially beat Cress if its HC but gets TWaved in the process, loses to Doublade and at least beats Florges.

There's probably some sort of potential still in Metagross I haven't found yet, but at the moment it just isn't that great as far as I can tell. Using a teamslot, especially on offense, on a slow mon that will almost never hit its intended target (fairies, mainly) and can't really quickly break down the important walls just isn't possible. When you can substitute that slot with a faster mon that can boost much more quickly and beat the important walls of the tier it seems silly to use a slow, more easily beaten version.

Rank: B at best
 

Kink

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I like Metagross as a pokemon a lot, but find it entirely underwhelming in this tier. It functions incredibly poorly, in my opinion, as either a breaker or a sweeper. For reference, the variations I've tried out thus far are: SR + 3 atks ada, Colbur Agility 3tks ada, AV 4 atks, HC 3 atks.

When using a pokemon in UU as a physical wallbreaker or sweeper/cleaner, it's success and viability is depending on how it matches up against Suicune, Florges, Doublade and Cresselia (to a lesser extent, mons like MAggron). Those four are the most important though, because they're the ones that will outright stop a sweep from team preview unless you manage to appropriately weaken or eliminate them earlier on in the match. Three of them have reliable recovery, Doublade has enough defenses + offensive pressure that giving it free turns can be incredibly problematic (especially for an offensive team) if you don't have an appropriate hard check (Hydreigon, PZ).

While Metagross doesn't struggle against Florges in the same way Doublade does (extremely limited switchins without Wish support), it's rarely if ever going to actually get to hit Florges itself. Steel is an utterly terrible spammable attacking type when it comes to UU considering how ubiquitous Suicune is. Zen Headbutt adds a bit of coverage, but it's still not terribly great. Point being, when faced up against those walls, it straight up struggles to break anything that isn't explicitly weak to its STABs. Compare instead to a mon like Cobalion - it can boost fast enough to break Suicune, can Taunt and setup on Cresselia, outright beats Florges (though takes more damage from it) and loses to Doublade. That sort of performance is far better than Metagross which loses to Cune, can potentially beat Cress if its HC but gets TWaved in the process, loses to Doublade and at least beats Florges.

There's probably some sort of potential still in Metagross I haven't found yet, but at the moment it just isn't that great as far as I can tell. Using a teamslot, especially on offense, on a slow mon that will almost never hit its intended target (fairies, mainly) and can't really quickly break down the important walls just isn't possible. When you can substitute that slot with a faster mon that can boost much more quickly and beat the important walls of the tier it seems silly to use a slow, more easily beaten version.

Rank: B at best
While I agree with some of what you said, I don't necessarily think that Metagross needs to spam its moves. The fact of the matter is, even if you're facing a cune, pair Metagross up with a Zapdos and a firecheck, and wham, you have a staple core. It's simply that easy to fit Metagross's gorgeous typing and bulk onto a balance/BO team. Further, when you pair Meteor Mash with Zen Heabutt and EQ, Metagross gains perfect coverage. This is a scary game to play against a seasoned battler (such as you cough cough hehe).

Don't get me wrong, Metagross has its flaws, no doubt. If locked in, it's forced out when its counters come in. Further, paraphrasing what you so accurately said, Wallbreakers should be able to get more common defensive walls which, admittedly, Metagross does not. This being said, it has such a gorgeous typing, it fits so perfectly on teams that can take care of those problems, and then, Gross becomes actually terrifying against everything else. For example, take a standard wall such as Swampert, a staple to many balance teams. If Swamp switches into a Zen Headbutt, there's a 20% chance it won't even be able to fire off a move before it dies. Aka it's an easy 3HKO. Using a Cleric lets you use Metagross more aggressively against Bulky Waters, in general. I like Calm Mind Florges + Choice Band Metagross, they work nicely together. In any case, I think your post is a tiny bit of an undersell, though I understand your reasoning. Try the Choice Band set with some balance cores.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Well, first of all, I love the new format, even though it makes some things that are actually pretty good look sort of bad, like Meloetta and Pangoro in C rank. Now, I'll get to the new drops soon, but let me get one thing straight.

HOW IS THIS THING B-?!!!
Donphan is in no way B-, at all. Donphan may have some pros, like having a high 120 attack stat, good physical defense, and Rapid Spin, but I feel like it's either too outclassed, bad in current meta, and overall useless to be considered B- alongside mons that are actually good like Galvantula and Moltres. Let's touch on the three topics about why Donphan is not B-:

Outclassed: While Donphan is unique in it's role as a bulky Ground type with Rapid Spin, it still faces competition from mons like Krookodile, who has an extra Dark typing and better abilities than Donphan, Mamoswine, who also has an extra typing and an overall better wallbreaker than Choice Band Donphan, and Gligar, while it is passive, has more overall bulk than Donphan and has reliable recovery and U-Turn. While Donphan can fit on very select teams, it isn't as splashable as the mons listed above.

Current Meta Hurting It: While UU is and always will be Bulky Water: The Tier, it still doesn't help Donphan that it is Bulky Water: The Tier. Grass types are also getting more popular to check water types and with the current suspect test, stuff like Chesnaught and Whimsicott have gotten even better and more splashable thanks to their typings. Donphan sadly cannot touch either of these types unless it has Gunk Shot for Grasses, which is only usable on the Choice Band set. (Ice Shard is too weak to do damage to anything other than Dragon-Flying types eitherways) While current meta trends, like the popularity of Fire types, can help Donphan, it's special bulk is so bad that stuff like Fire Blast from MegaDoom is still basically killing Phan, and physical Fire types like Darmanitan still can hurt Donphan thanks to their power or ability to burn with Entei.

Uselessness: Ok, Donphan isn't THAT useless, but I've never seen a Donphan that actually did something in a battle other than tank one physical hit, maybe get off a Rocks, Spin, maybe even EQ, and then die. Sadly, Donphan can't really do all of these things at once thanks to stuff like it's bad special defense, and probably most importantly, it's lack of recovery limiting it's ability to tank. Even in higher-level play, I haven't really seen Donphan do too much other than the things listed above, and then die. Overall, while Donphan can fit on some teams, usually it has so many faults that it's not worth it.

Ok, I'll give Donphan some credit. Choice Band Donphan is a cool wallbreaker, especially with Donphan's amazing coverage in moves like Seed Bomb and Gunk Shot, but as said above, it faces competition from other Grounds like CB Krook and Mamoswine. Overall, even though Donphan has some cool pros, like being physically bulky, hitting hard, and having Spin and Rocks, it has so many faults like having competition or being outclassed, the current meta hurting it, and it's overall uselessness in most of the battles it's in that it does not reflect it's current rank, and really should drop to either C+ or C, both of which better reflect Donphan.

Now for the new (but bad/mediocre) drops!

Charizard: Yeah, don't use this thing over much better stuff like Moltres or Darmanitan. D Rank, let it drop plz
Manectric: Overheat and LightningRod are cool, but it's still outclassed by Zapdos and Heliolisk. D Rank
Diancie: It's actually pretty cool as it walls things like Fire types and Flying types, but it's typing makes it weak to Water, Ground, Grass, Steel, etc. The only really good set is Offensive Trick Room, but I still think Diancie could work, but not that well. C or C-
Venusaur: Okay, at first I was really hyped for Venu, as it seemed like Roserade and Amoonguss breeded together so it could have balanced bulk and offensive stats. But sadly, it doesn't have hazards like Rose and Spore like Guss, so it's sorta outclassed by both. Still has some use on Sun teams or that Curse set, but it's still pretty eh. C+

Now for the good drops!
Metagross: I don't have much else to say what other people have said already, but I really like Gross. It's typing makes it really splashable in cores with mons like Hydreigon or any Dark type really, and I feel like it will be a cool staple on balanced or BO teams. B+ imo
Sableye: Ah, the Troll of UU is back. Ban it plz Eye is a pretty cool broken addition, with Prankster Will-O-Wisp and Recover letting it be the most broken thing ever check a lot of things, while also being a hard check to Reuniclus. While Sableye still has trouble with Fire types and other things like Fairy types, I think we should ban it immediately it still is a great addition for a lot of teams and should be A-. BAN IT NOW
Gardevoir: Gardevoir is really cool, really nice to have a good offensive Fairy other than Florges and Slurpuff. Specs Gardevoir hits REALLY HARD, Scarf Garde is cool for Healing Wish (Doesn't outspeed Mega Bee smh) and there's probably some other cool sets within Voir's vast arsenal of moves. While Garde still has faults like it's 80 speed and no physical bulk, I think it will be a cool asset for offensive teams thanks to it's typing and STABS and it's neat 125 SpA. B+ is a good starting point imo.

I hope you enjoyed this wall of text, and goodnight! =}}
 
Charizard is actually a pretty cool mon when used alongside Suicune for Tailwind support. Moltres is obviously better, but Charizard is still viable. I'd say put it in C Rank for now.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
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If you're worried about having to predict between Florges / Cune cores, you can always run Trick on CB Gross like someone mentioned in the np thread. It cripples a ton of gross checks like Doublade / Cune / Alom and if Florges decides to stay in for w/e reason you cripple that too. It's a shame to cut coverage but I've found it really eases prediction as your only mindless switchin is now mega Aggron(and Bronzong I guess???). B+ is very fair.

Another nomination I wanted to make was mdoomer for A-, I hyped it in the np thread and so far for me it's really loved up to that hype. The metagame has substantially improved for it with the recent drops and its dual STABs / NP / Tect set is very consistent vs both offense and balance. In particular ToxiDoom is a very easy offensive core to use in the current meta given the fantastic offensive synergy the two have, only really faltering with specific mons like Pert and even then Doom can blow through it if it's been chipped a little. I feel like when I compare what's in B+ to A-, Houndoom fits a lot better in A-, even if it's close to bottom of the rank.
 
Charizard is actually a pretty cool mon when used alongside Suicune for Tailwind support. Moltres is obviously better, but Charizard is still viable. I'd say put it in C Rank for now.
Would you mind sharing what set you're using with Zard on this team? I'm pretty skeptical on this...I think Zard is a mon that needs to be self-sufficient unless it's on a Sun team. When you only have 4 turns or so to use Tailwind and have to babysit the Stealth Rocks too...seems pretty situational. That said, I'm obviously one of the people that supports ranking it above D-rank, but Tailwind support can make a lot of mons seem better than they actually are...

I also heavily disagree with dropping Donphan. It's the most reliable non-Mega spinner in the tier for sure, which already makes it at least a B- Pokemon and also makes it really valuable for teams with Spikes or Sticky Web. Sableye dropping is only really a big deal for the defensive set, which still has Toxic to pressure it. 252+ Earthquake is a solid 2HKO on the standard specially defensive set even after a Prankster Wisp on the second turn. EQ does about half on the physical defensive set and I've found that running Play Rough over Ice Shard in some cases can be a pretty good option since it also hits stuff like Hydreigon, Honchkrow and Salamence (not Fatmence), while putting extra pressure on Mandibuzz and Chesnaught. B- rank is perfect for Donphan and, a rise to B in the future doesn't sound far-fetched at all.

Diancie seems like another B- mon. It's a poor Stealth Rock setter unless it's multitasking with Trick Room or Sunny Day since it loses to all UU spinners minus Foretress along with Empoleon on the Defog side, but its Calm Mind set is really efficient. Calm Mind can help it outlast some of its checks one on one and the recovery from Rest really helps it to continue to check Fire-, Dragon- and Fighting types that it normally checks. CroDiancie's also nice since its not setup bait for other Calm Mind users aside from Suicune. Taking its ability to set up Rocks + Sun/Trick Room and also be an effective Calm Mind user, B- seems really appropriate for it, but C+ wouldn't be too bad either.

On Metagross, I don't want to make too in depth of a post since I want to test more sets, but it seems pretty all right. It was kind of underwhelming for me at first since its offensive typing is pretty meh and it has poor matchups versus a large portion of the tier, but at the same time, it's pretty versatile and the Band set hits hard and has good utility with Trick and Bullet Punch. AV is bulky but it doesn't do much aside from taking hits and isn't as strong as its 135 Attack makes it seem at a glance becuase of the mediocre typing of its STABs and low-ish BP of those moves. That said, it's a good check to Mega Sceptile and other Grass types as well as Fairies and its synergy with Hydreigon is almost perfect. I want to try Mixed LO Metagross, Agility and any other potentially good sets before completely judging it, but B/B+ seems to suit this thing fine.

EDIT: Not a nomination, but I just noticed that Gourgeist is unlisted. Was this a mistake or have things changed from last month to unrank it? dodmen edit: good catch, my bad
 
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pizzaguy88

Banned deucer.
hello im new here just but still have a little exprience in the tier so im give my thoughts on some things:
the new rankings can be confusing especially donaphan in b- since all the other mons in that rank r in c ranks now and it seems kind of weird compared to other b- ranked mons:

.Sablye should be b+/a- imo its way to threating for majority of physical attackers being able to cripple them and scares threats like mega aero and suicune most threating drop imo.
.Metagross sholud be b+/b its too strong with rocks and powerful stab. Also clear body is a decent ability so salamence and arcanine cant switch in.
.Gardevoir should also br b+/b it may seem unappealing especially since it was ssitting in nu in bw but it still brings a lot to the table amazing ability,movepool, and a blistering 125 spa makes it a real threat and uu appreiciates an offensive fairy types 80 spe is still meh tho.
the rest of them are not very relevant venasaur and diancie seem solid at c/c-, and d rank charizard and manetric.
 
Update:

Sableye to low A-
Gardevoir to B
Metagross to mid B+
Diancie to C
Venusaur to C-
Manectric to D
Charizard to D
Sableye is easily the most influential of the drops, working effectively on both semi-stall/balance and hyper offense. It has the ability to check several threats like Cobalion, Toxicroak, and Mega Beedrill as well as last-resort burn sweepers like Mega Swamp / Mega Sharpedo. Additionally it's not that easy to directly switch into as most Fire-types hate losing their item, Florges and Whimsicott are easily worn down after a few switches into Wisp/Knock Off, and common status absorbers like Snorlax / Reuniclus / Suicune are either completely shut down or cannot recover due to Taunt. However, Sableye's rather terrible bulk (ex. OHKOed by Feraligatr's unboosted Waterfall, meaning it has to sack itself just to burn SD variants [although I think physically defensive Sableye will have its merits in this metagame]) sets it back a lot; on HO it basically has to risk its life to Taunt common Defog users like Zapdos, and it has a hard time actually directly switching into the majority of the tier. Its overall effect on the metagame warrants it a spot in A-, though its flaws hold it back from going any higher.

Metagross, though slightly underwhelming, still performs decently with CB or LO mixed sets. Combination of its STABs/EQ can actually do some decent damage (for example, Doublade is 2HKOd by CB or LO Earthquake, and Jellicent is easily 2HKOd by CB Zen Headbutt) and it can run some other options to lure more of its normal counters (LO Grass Knot to 2HKO Suicune and OHKO (Mega) Swampert, HP Fire for Forretress/Bronzong, or Explosion on Choice Band to force massive damage onto Suicune and Slowking among others). Additionally, it has a decent amount of switchin opportunities - Florges, Whimsicott, Crobat, Roserade, Gardevoir for example - and good bulk to check other attackers as well. However its main flaw is its Speed which leaves it slower than 90% of other offensive Pokemon in the tier, in addition to the fact that its weak to a /ton/ of common threats (most of S and A+ crap on it). It's a rather weak Stealth Rock setter, needs a ton of support/prior damage to function as an Agility sweeper, and AV is probably its worst set as it's neither strong nor exceptionally bulky (especially given its typing).

Gardevoir is usable, but its horrible bulk prevent it from doing things it really wants to do as a Fairy-type - this is shown by the fact that it's 2HKOed by both Scarf Hydreigon's Dark Pulse and LO Salamence's Fire Blast after SR. It can be pretty hard to switch into with LO/Specs, but switch ins definitely exist (mainly Bronzong and Metagross, to a lesser extent SDef Forretress, Mega Aggron, Cresselia, and Snorlax). It'll go to B for its niche as a truly powerful Fairy-type, though I definitely wouldn't be opposed to more discussion about sending it to B-.

Diancie has some usability with Stealth Rock and Trick Room sets, but that's about it.

Venusaur doesn't truly offer anything more than other Grass-types - offensively Roserade is better in every way with a higher Speed, much higher SpAtk + Technician, and access to Spikes, while defensively Chesnaught, Tangrowth, and to an extent Amoonguss require less support and offer much more than Venusaur in general. Neither Curse sets (especially bc of Scald...) nor Chlorophyll sets are enough for it to be ranked anywhere higher than C- (honestly even this is generous, could see it going unranked in the future).

Manectric is clearly not viable.

Charizard simply requires too much support to function. Special attacking sets are more easily done by Mega Houndoom, Infernape, and Chandelure while Swords Dance just can't function at all due to Stealth Rock and the presence of Suicune / Slowking / Swampert etc.

Nominations:

Slowking: A- to high B+ (its role is in many cases performed better by Jellicent with its better resistances/immunities and access to Taunt)
Houndoom: B+ to low A- (leaning yes on this one but would like more discussion)
Forretress: B to B-
Mega Absol: B- to B
Moltres: B- to C+

Be sure to account for as many aspects of a Pokemon as you can when discussing a change in rank, rather than simply stating its strengths/weaknesses and agreeing it should move up/down. Criteria include how effectively/reliably it can perform its role(s), how much support it requires in terms of stuff like hazard removal/answering it checks and counters/free turns it may give to common Pokemon, whether it is outclassed in its role, how easy it is to fit on teams.
 
I do not agree with Forretress dropping to B-. Sableye's drop doesn't really affect it that much, since it already gets spinblocked by everything (Chandelure, Doublade, Hoopa) without doing anything back. I even actually use my Forre as a Sableye switch in, since idgaf about it being burned and it can bring something else safely. I hate everything in Forretress, its name, its design, its passivity, but I'm still using it a lot because it's the best spinner we have (bar MBlastoise) and because of its many positive traits: good typing, good bulk, access to Spikes and SR (Tentacruel doesn't do that), and most importantly Volt Switch. It is so easy to fit into teams, and doesn't really need any team support in return. Nothing else in the UU tier offers such a role compression.

It should stay B- in my opinion.
 
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When did cobalion drop to A? in the last thread it has it in A+, then no mention of it dropping in this thread unless i missed it. due to zapdos/sableye perhaps?
 

Thisbemyalt

Shiba sucks
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When did cobalion drop to A? in the last thread it has it in A+, then no mention of it dropping in this thread unless i missed it. due to zapdos/sableye perhaps?
They decided to make multiple changes in the rankings so that the A ranks were not so inflated, coba probably was cut from A+ because a lot of players are starting to realize it can use multiple roles but does no single one very well. That and the recent changes to the tier like zapdos, sable, and meta all kind of hurt coba's viability.
 

pizzaguy88

Banned deucer.
Moltres all though it hurts to see this being dicuss i totally agree with it moving down while it is one of the most threating wallbreakers its limited of doing these roles well due to sr weakness and unreliable stabs, also chandelure does give it slight competition with more powerful fire blasts with choicespecs equipped, and its less fustrating to use, but hurricane+ a better speed tier does give it a niche but i still say move it down.

Dont agree with forretress its one of the most reliable spinners in uu imo and two useful abilitys is decent and it can stack hazards and gyro ball is useful its not to mention it has no weaknesses but it is settup fodder for reuniclus, suicune, and its not a great fairy check.

dont have much thoughts on mega absol but i think its fine in b-.
 

YABO

King Turt
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to B+ Yes, I was talking to dodmen about this one the other day when this thread first came up and I was pretty shocked to see Slowking above Jellicent since the latter has more stallbreaking qualities through Taunt and a more reliable burn. That's not to say that Slowking is bad by any stretch but the ability to beat stuff like Beedrill and completely shutting down Suicune (king hates burn and gets roared out) means that Slowking should drop.
to A- This wasn't on the slate but I figured I'd throw it on here. Basically Slowking and Jelli fulfill similar roles but Jelli is just the more consistent option from what I've seen and would like to see them get swapped.
to A- I understand that with Sableye's entry into the tier that Fire types become a premium but I really view Houndoom as just a slightly more consistent version of Infernape in a lot of situations. Both of their best sets involve Nasty Plot but the differences lie in bulk and access to boosted priority (among differences in typing). I just don't see it differentiating itself enough over Infernape in particular to rise above it, especially when you take into account the opportunity cost of using your mega slot. For that reason I'd say stay B+ but probably rise to the very top of it. Either way it doesn't really matter as Houndooms probably the best dude in B+.
to B Absol already looks a bit out of place among dudes like Galvantula so I don't see an issue with this rise. The drops were pretty nice for Absol by bringing a couple of new guys to exploit. Sableye is often a free set up opportunity and Metagross is another common pokemon to fire off Knock Offs versus. In addition, a stylistic change towards hyper offense will likely occur with the introduction of a great spinblocker in Sableye. Absol truly shines versus hazard leads like Froslass and even Azelf where he can often get a safe mega opportunity early on and deny hazards from an opponent who likely wants them really badly.
to B- Forretress fell recently and Sableye's introduction is certainly going to be unkind to it. Yes it has access to Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, yada, yada, role compression, etc, etc. The bottom line is this. Forretress is a liability versus teams with a threatening sweeper. One double switch and its curtains if you don't have a good answer to a +2 Lucario (hint: you probably dont). The crazy thing is that in these matchups, you have to Volt Switch pretty much every time you come in or you risk them just switching right into it and you're up shit creek. And if you're clicking Volt Switch every time then you're not doing any of the roles that Forretress is valued so highly for. Anyways, other than that, Fire types are going to be absolutely amazing in this meta so have fun running Forretress and its famed role compression.
No opinion on Moltres, hit your moves and you kill everything, miss and you die. Not something I like using so wouldn't be surprised to see it drop but no preference.

There's some other stuff that I think could change but this post is getting pretty lengthy so I'll cut it there.
 
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nv

The Lost Age
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I am in the same boat as YABO in that this thing is not as effective as Jellicent since Jellicent is able to take on Suicune and Beedrill while also being a better overall "bulky" Water. I also second YABO's nom of "switching" Jellicent and Slowking as Jellicent does its job better (see YABO's post). Slowking still however holds the niche of being a bulky water that can setup thanks to CM and Nasty Plot. I know Suicune does this niche better, but Slowking is proven effective thanks to Psyshock allowing it to beat opposing CM mons by hitting them on their weaker defensive stat.


I am leaning towards yes like dodmen on this nom as Mega Houndoom is honestly one of the more effective Megas right now. The difference between Infernape and Mega Houndoom is that the latter's bulk allows it to play on bulkier team archetypes that appreciate its Psychic immunity and Fire immunity pre-MEvo. Infernape does have better coverage and ways to get around certain checks / counters thanks to it having great mixed attacking stats, but I feel like right now Mega Houndoom provides more utility that works on more teams than Infernape. The other thing that Mega Houndoom has over Infernape is its nice base 115 Speed which means it can outspeed Heliolisk, Espeon, and speedtie with Azelf which Infernape has a hard time with (moreso the latter two than the former). Its Nasty Plot + Protect set is really good right now and I truly think that this should be in low A-.


Sadly, I am really torn on this. On one hand, the drops didn't make this any better as they gave us another spinblocker that Forretress cannot beat and right now it is easily worn down and its reliance to spin means it is very predictable. On the other hand, Forretress is the only spinner that can keep up momentum, wearing down spinblockers, meaning it can usually outlast most said spinblockers. For now though I have to agree that in this current meta with Fire-types being really good and Sableye being amazing at what it does (i.e. spinblocking / hazard blocking in gneral) that Forretress has to drop because it may be able to be a good role compressor, but right now that role is null and void as, like YABO said, constantly clicking Volt Switch to not be set up on means you aren't able to fulfill the compressed role/s that Forretress can fulfill for a team.


Mega Absol is in the same boat as Mega Houndoom (and Fire-types in general) in that it benefited from the new drops because thanks to its ability, it is able to hard check Sableye (unless it is the real set which means it is running Foul Play > Knock Off) and it can spam Knock Off a bit more freely with a Sab and Metagross (and a weakened Gardevoir) being around. This thing has also been able to find its way as a pivot onto more balanced teams as it has nice power and its ability means it is immune to status moves as well as being able to deter hazards quite easily against certain mons such as Froslass and Azelf.
 

Kreme

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Slowking to B+ - Agree: Not much to say that YABO hasn't already said but I feel like the Jelli - King comparison is pretty weird in my opinion considering both bring something slightly different to the plate (amazing stallbreaker - Regen / bulky wincon), although if we're comparing them based on how effective they are at doing what they do, I'd say Jellicent needs a lot less help whereas Slowking needs quite a bit for the CM set, and the defensive set can be easy setup fodder. I do think they should be switched though considering how good Jellicent is atm.

Mega Houndoom to low A- - Abstain: Nothing to say that YABO already hasn't smfh.

Forretress to B- - Agree: At this point I hate YABO for existing but I feel like addressing some points made by others before me. Regarding Aquadext, while Forretress does have amazing role compression in that you can fit entry hazards + entry hazard removal in one slot, I'd have to disagree in that it's one of the best Spinners in the tier because, frankly, I think it's arguably one of the worst Rapid Spin users in the tier. A Rapid Spin user that is unable to beat any of the spinblockers is pretty bad, even Donphan's better than this thing at being a Spinner. Regarding NV's post, I think Forretress wearing down spinblockers works the other way around just as well, considering how Forretress is going to be switching into hazards to try and spin them most of the time. The thing I really don't like about Forretress though is that it's one of the easiest Pokemon to wear down and become setup fodder, so if you're using it you either need a Wish passer, or you need multiple checks to one thing you should've solidly checked, which kind of goes against its whole role compression ordeal.

Mega Absol to B - Agree: Why the fuck is this thing in the same rank as Donphan and Galvantula? I'll never know, but honestly speaking, I feel like quite a few of the lower end ranks have some questionable things going on so I won't delve into it. Mega Absol's definitely gotten better due to drops though so it shouldn't be B- whatsoever.
 
I'm not certain how "holy shit we realized jellicent is good so slowking is worse now" is logically consistent in any way form or fashion. King hasn't gotten any worse, hell it may be better now in the crawdaunt suspect and sab meta with the highly valued pivot utility and yellow magic it possess.

I'm feeling metagross for B+/A-, I'll have to agree with teal, offensive metagross is booty, 70 speed does not cut the mustard at all in UU unless you have absurdly strong priority. That said a bulky steel with pursuit, bebbles, priority, mixed lure utility, and fighting neutrality is a big deal in "UU: the burdering". (band set is booty though)

Edit: Forry is the poster child B- poke, it's absurdly flawed and I hate the little shitter with a passion, but it offers incomparable's that make it worth running on a lot of teams.
 
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Adaam

إسمي جف
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I agree with jjoshcja. Jellicent has been in the tier forever now, so how does its increase in usage affect its viability? It is not like Jellicent is a recent drop that now gives competition to Slowking. Slowking has so many useful qualities that Jellicent would kill for (and vice versa), most notably Regenerator and much better physical bulk. This really cannot be understated because Jellicent is a really poor fire check sicne all the physical fires hit it really really hard for a resist, or they just outright beat it in Chandelure's case. So, you're forced to run another sturdy fire check whereas with Slowking you could get away with only running softer fire checks.

Then there is the godlike movepool Slowking has (I'm sure I don't need to list it), and recent drops actually favor Slowking much more than Jellicent. Jellicent can't switch into Metagross and Gardevoir reliably, but Slowking easily can (Specs Gard hits Slowking had but with Regen you can just switch out into your Fairy resist).

Keep Slowking A-
 
To my mind :
: A-

He has greats stats and a good Movepool. He can easily destroy a lot of thing in the actual UU. Water type are a problem for him but I think his actual rank is too bad, he deserves better !

Metagross (Metagross) @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 220 Atk / 160 SpA / 128 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake
- Grass Knot

This set was used in the past and it's very interresting !
The spread allows Metagross to Outspeed regular 85 BS Speed without EV in speed (like cresselia, Suicune..) and 2HKO with Stealth Rock regular CroCune with Grass Knot (OHKO Swampert and Swampert Mega). Maybe some players met me a few days ago with my alt CrawdauntStayBL, i used this set.

You can play Metagross with Psychic too (on Meteor Mash or Bullet Punch) for Chesnaught who is a real pain for this set or Hidden Power Fire for Forretress.

Metagross @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake / Grass Knot

An other great set for Metagross. You just take a "super effective" attack and do a "Rock Polish / Agility" and you can easily sweep entire Team. Jolly nature allows gross' to outspeed Scarf Hydreigon, Scarf mienshao, Scarf Infernape..

You can keep Jolly nature if you play with Grass Knot. +2 SpA (WP) allows Gross' to do several damages to all Bulky Water 'Mon even with - nature.
 
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