OU Suspect Testing Round 2 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

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I was CC. I peaked at around 1240 from what I remember, though you sure wouldn't know it now since I'm at 1096--I kind of gave up on hitting 1400 after a while, and after that point I was just playing for fun with some random experiments, so that hurt me a bit. Anyway, nominations:


I know it's auto-nominated. I have to mention it anyway because this is the only thing that gave me issues on a rain team aside from the one Floatzel I saw (being able to attack on both sides made it so much more dangerous than every Kabutops and Ludicolo) and the odd Toxicroak. While I choose not to nominate Rankurusu, I understand why others are doing so since I primarily used a stall team and it killed me dead every time. Manaphy, though, is like Rankurusu on steroids. It does take damage from entry hazards and Leech Seed, but compensates for that by being bulkier, being faster, healing more with Rest, not needing a 70% accurate move for coverage, and not being affected by paralysis. Calm Mind is a particularly scary version of it.

Deoxys-N to OU

This was banned on theory when nobody used it. Bring it back for a real test. I could theorymon out about how Scarf Deoxys outspeeds stuff like Timid Swift Swim Kingdra, but that would make me part of what I see as a problem.

Aldaron's proposal

I hesitated on this, but in the end I support it.

Personally, I don't want to see Drizzle + Swift Swim banned, nor Drizzle alone, nor Swift Swim alone. I did decently enough with a team where four out of my six Pokemon were actually weak or functionally weak to at least one type out of Water and Ice (Skarmory's Special Defense is bad enough that it can't handle Water despite the lack of weakness)--and granted that the other two members of my team were Rain Dish Ludicolo and Nattorei, but it suggests to me that rain isn't an insurmountable obstacle when I only have two things that can really handle it and yet still have more trouble with balanced and sand.

More importantly, though, Manaphy plays such a large role in the success of rain teams that I believe it's not right to rush through and make any second simultaneous decision about rain. However, it's obvious that the community most likely will make a second simultaneous decision about rain, so I support Aldaron's proposal for lack of a better option. If nothing else, it should promote diversity by retaining the viability of RD Ludicolo, RD Tentacruel, Toxicroak, and likely others that I didn't run into.

Other stuff I'm not nominating:

I'm iffy on Latios. Often it felt like a match came down to whether I got my Latias in sooner or my opponent got their Latios in sooner, but enough things outspeed him in weather that I'm not too inclined to nominate him yet. His sister is a different story, as her extra bulk really lets her use that beautiful and otherwise-untapped set of resistances that helps check utter beasts like Rankurusu, which provides solid value in the metagame while also not being overpowered. Her Specs Draco Meteor also doesn't ruin basically everything. My Rain Dish Ludicolo could do a great job walling her (assuming no Calm Mind) and Specs Kingdra, but with Latios it's Blissey or bust for walling. Again, though, I don't see him at suspect level yet because he's possible to revenge with weather or Tyranitar, which are everywhere.

Sand teams frequently wrecked me. Had nothing to do with Dory and Landlos, though--Terakion, Heatran, and especially Rankurusu were the powerhouses there. Even Tyranitar and Scizor were scarier than the mole and the genie, but maybe that's just how my team construction went. I nominate none of these, though Rankurusu is closest.


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My nominations:


Incredibly powerful in the rain. Only has a couple of checks (Nattorei, Blissey) and with team preview can easily be removed (Magnezone, Manaphy) to allow for an easy sweep. Each set requires different counters and since it is hard to know which set it is running, it is often too late by the time the player figures it out. Thanks to its 590 speed max, there is not much that outspeeds it. With the dual stab in rain and the dragon attacks to give it near perfect coverage and the insane speed, it makes for a scary pokemon that can beat down teams with brute force once its few checks are gone.


The bulky Manaphy (252 hp, 252 def bold) can survive 2 Nattorei Power Whips and a specs Latios Draco Meteor, which eliminates 2 of its most common checks. The ability to set up on anything that doesn't have STAB Electric/Grass attacks makes it far too powerful for the OU metagame. The Calm Mind set is arguably worse, as it can now take on the Electric/Grass attacks it once feared. Same as Kingdra, if your check/counter is knocked out (which is pretty easy to get rid of if the opponent knows what they are doing) then chances are Manaphy will sweep with ease.


Wobb takes skill out of the game in that it gets free kills by revenging scarfed pokemon, and its ability to trap anything and encore it is ridiculous. Yes, encore has been nerfed but 3 turns is still enough to get the job done, especially in this fast paced game. The Custap Berry essentially gets it a free kill as well. It is the ultimate support pokemon and can be used to help set up any threatening sweeper time and time again, as well as remove the sweeper's revenge killers.


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Landorus: Too damn powerful. The ease it takes to get sandstorm up and keep it up pushes it over the edge for me, and the fact it can 2HKO any mon except Bronzong and Skarmory speaks volumes to me. Its distinct lack of checks too make it kind of a daunting prospect to face in any battle, and in my opinion it is broken.

Latios: Pretty much the same reason to be honest, it has a fairly hard counter in Nattorei but it isn't hard to slap it with a HP Fire for the KO. Same can be said for Jirachi and Trick pushes it over the edge imo. Same could be said for Latias too but we will see what becomes of that I guess.

Sorry for short noms in a rush here =/.
As a player who qualified with basically a cookie cutter rain team with a rotating 6th (tried Ludicolo, Kabutops, Virizion, Voltlos, Wobbuffet, Magnezone, Celebi and Lucario) I think I have a good idea of what is broken with rain.

Kingdra, Manaphy and Latios need to go. Rain and Swift Swim isn't broken. A top good team vs. a team with just Politoed, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Gorebyss would have more than a fair fight and any well built team would destroy that.

As for non rain pokemon Doryuzzu is the only one I think is put of hand and it 100% needs to go.

Iffy on Landlos. It's strong but it doesn't clean sweep teams like Dory.

I support Deoxys-N to OU even if I think it is broken. Can't know for sure if you didn't test.

Rankurusu is an annoying prick but I need to see it when half my team can't just Surf and kill it in one shot.


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I think to many things are being banned at once here and its making it to hard to find out what really is broken or not. The main things I find broken though is Drizzle. I would support removing drizzle entirely from the metagame simply because it allows such an quick and easy way for powerful sweepers like Kingdra and Manaphy to sweep. I support banning drizzle entirely or Aldarons proposal, I think any metagame that rain/swift swimmers are less dominant in is a better one. Rain simply over centralizes and it overpowered, I've seen and used teams geared almost entirely to combating rain still lose to it, and I would say 1/3 battles will be against rain dance. It needs to be removed or nerfed somehow.

Deo-N - needs to be retested, even if some people claim they played it and it was broken or if some people theorymon that it will be broken ,because of offensive capabilities combined with solid bulkiness, I still think we need to actually see it effect the metagame before we ban it.

Beside Drizzle there is nothing else I can say should be definite suspects. I see people nominating things like Randorosu, Latios, Doryuzzu, etc. I think the reason everyone was so weak to these threats was because their teams were geared so much to battle rain that they couldn't cover every threat. Rankurusu is very close to being broken, but imo, we shouldn't give it the cut just yet.


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People need to slow down here. We're not trying to ban the entire game in a single move, are we?

For my nom, I choose...


I really don't like rain that much, and I think a lot of people agree with that. It's not really that rain is THAT terrible though, it's that Rain has the best abuser of any weather to exist in the game. I feel as Rain is re-balanced with Manaphy gone. You don't have a Sweeper capable of getting +6 in 2 turns, or +6/+6 in Six, both of which are easy assuming Rain can stay up. Opposing weather is really the only thing a good Manaphy has to worry about, in Rain, even Nattorei is dying to the Powerful Surfs of a set-up Manaphy. I believe without such a force, Rain is a lot easier to handle without having to devote more of your team to rain than any other common threat or style.

Basically, I believe we should Balance rain with Manaphy's ban, and see where the Metagame takes us from there. I don't really think any other bans are justified at this point, no other current suspects seem as glaring as Manaphy's strengths, and it REALLY should be obvious right now... If Manaphy makes Drizzle overpowered and removing balances it, we should obviously ban Manaphy, not drizzle. It's like banning Offense instead of putting Rayquaza in Ubers. Ban the broken mons, not the playstyle that becomes broken because of it.

I feel like this is a crossover suspect test. This test, we're weeding out the very last of what needs to go. Next test, once everything starts evening out, is going to be the big daddy of suspects. The metagame is stabilizing, with that stability the true colors of this metagame will shine. Right now we're STILL in a hectic mess because I see a lot of voting in here of people trying to ban what they dislike rather than what's really broken. There are some very well-written glory posts here, but there's also some pretty bad shit that's snuck its way into this thread too. Hopefully this metagame can turn for the better and still be so unique in it being the first OU weather metagame.
My nominations:

Doryuuzu - It can decimate teams and late-game is almost unstoppable. It creates the use of pokemon like Bronzong and Skarmory, just to prepare for Dory. Sand Throw makes all the Swift Swimmers look like nothing.

Drizzle - It causes overcentralization and makes the metagame less diverse. It makes team look the same because they are only a number that can check it and its abusers. I mean we either ban this or ban all the strong abusers out there(which is dumb). Aldaron's proposal could work imo here.

Latios - It wrecks, makes you have to run a Steel-Type, Tyranitar, etc. Its unbelievable how +20 in SpA when compared to Latias, makes him far more uncontrollable imo.

Rankurusu - It only has one true counter Spiritomb. It forces the use of Scizor. I don't know how to explain how strong this pokemon is after a single turn of setup with either CM or TR.

Aldaron's Proposal - I think this would fix the problem, while keeping diversity. The only thing I dislike is the fact your opponent can take advantage by running a Swift Swimmer to abuse your Drizzle. This situation is rare, but can become threatening to the player with Drizzle.

Death Phenomeno

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My nominations are the same as last time, since my reasoning hasn't changed:

My nominations are the following:

Lati@s - Some people compare them to Sazandora, but these 2 have advantages over it. These 2 are faster, have a better movepool, and their typing is enough for them to have a different niche. While Latias may have a weaker Draco Meteor, her speed makes up for it. These 2 may be weak to Pursuit, but they resist Mach Punch (and Vacuum Wave and Aqua Jet), which is currently a very big deal.

Sand Veil / Snow Cloak / BrightPowder / Lax Incense - Thanks to the Dream World, now the whole argument that said something like "we can't ban these abilities since certain Pokémon have it as their only ability!" is no longer valid. Thus, we can have a complete Evasion Clause. As for the items, I personally feel that there's a double standard for them, but that's just me. The only problem with this would be having to say goodbye to Froslass, Tsunbear, Sandslash, Cacturne, and Garchomp until they get released. Also, their movepools (and Glaceon's as well) would have to be trimmed. This "hax" can be completely averted so, as someone who has lost many battles due to a 100% accurate move missing by something completely avoidable, I believe it should.


Official Smogon Know-It-All
I wasn't going to post in this thread, but the recent thread in PR has made want to give my two cents. My only nomination is

Deoxys-N. For one thing, did anyone actually see a single Deoxys-N in the last test? Didn't think so. And while this way of testing for suspect testing relies completely on theorymon (which I do have a problem with, but this is not the time), I think banning things on the assumption that they will be broken in future is going one step too far. It may well end up being banned anyway, but it should definitely actually be tested first. It is a different Pokemon for tiering purposes from Deoxys-A, and it should be treated as such. It is like if we banned Flygon at the same time as Garchomp last gen, because it was similar as a Pokemon, it just had slightly lower stats.

I'm not nominating any suspect to go up to Ubers, because I think there is nothing that is actually broken in the current metagame. People are nominating things they don't like and are too lazy to work around, and worst of all people are nominating anything which was not generation IV OU. There is a double standard in the treatment of weathers based on which abilities where introduced this generation which is ridiculous. Recently, someone said in a Little Cup Suspect thread:

I'd support a ban on Evolution Stone, but my beef with it is because except for Zuruggu, it generally encourages a new playstyle. A minor test of a Evo Stone-less metagame would settle things.
(My emphasis)

This is as far away from the way people should be thinking as it is possible to be. It is a new metagame and new playstyles are to be expected: In fact, if there were none then there would be a problem, considering the large number of new Pokemon and abilities. However, people are still thinking like this and it is seriously harming the development of the metagame. We saw it last gen as people started to ban things which where not really over-centralising (do you really think Mence would have been banned if we had not had the history of banning after tests that we did at that point? People new to the banlist but not to competitive Pokemon could never understand the ban, which tells me that they had not noticed anything inherently wrong with it without Smogon's influence.) and it is continuing this generation. I for one am perfectly happy with 5th gen being 'the weather generation', because each new generation has had its own flavour with the introduction of new Pokemon, and I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the idea. Finally, with regards to Aldaron's Proposal (on a side note, I love the capital P it seems to be getting now) I think it is a bad idea, as you can probably guess if you are still reading. However, if people decide that something about rain needs to be changed, then I think that it is a good change to implement, rather than banning Politoed (which is essentially what banning Drizzle is about) or banning Swift Swim. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with complex bans if they stop us having to outright ban things.
After much consideration, I've finally decided to nominate a few things.

Firstly, since Drizzle and Manaphy are already suspects I won't go into depth on them too much - other than to say that I would otherwise nominate Manaphy but not Drizzle.

I also nominate Deoxys-N to be brought down from Ubers to be tested. The jury's out on whether he will actually prove broken or not, but regardless; the fact remains that he was banned in a phase when very few people actually used him, meaning that it is likely many votes were cast based on pure theorymon and not testing experience. We simply cannot ban things without first testing them and not a similar pokemon instead, and I don't think many people would say that Deo-N was thoroughly tested to the degree smogon should require.

Finally, I'd like to say that I support Pocket's proposal for a system to deal with problem weathers (link here) as opposed to Aldaron's. Pocket's conclusions as to how we would ban elements of weather under this system I am not 100% sure I agree on, but nonetheless his system is the most unbiased, logical and effective method of determining precisely what aspects of weather are broken - and implementing it or something similar would allow the community time to debate and refine the finer details of the later stages. Aldaron's Proposal for a combination ban could be the result of this, as could banning Drizzle, banning Swift Swim, or banning abusers. The main point is that Pocket's method allows us to fairly objectively determine which of the above is broken - which when dealing with something as complex as weather is never easy, and is the reason I believe Drizzle alone should not be banned without further investigation such as the method Pocket suggests.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out to those who rightly think that Pocket's proposal would take a long time to conduct - yes it would, but if we do not do things surrounding this issue correctly, time in future may be taken up by people bringing the issue back up, retests if the community is unsatisfied, etc. I'm not trying to foretell that in the long run it will save us time, only point out that conducting a course of action that is less objective and much quicker may cause delays in the suspect process for other reasons.


be the upgraded version of me
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Thank you very much, Benlisted, for your support. I feel stupid to not bring this up in this nomination thread myself, since it is most appropriate here. Please take a look at my suggested course of action, and please read it thoroughly. I believe it weighs in pretty much all the main debates that has been going on in the suspect thread, policy review, and other relevant threads.

One thing I want to warn before you read - please do not auto-reject because it proposes the ban of abilities (Swift Swim) / combination of abilities. The banning of Swift Swim is only a transient phase, a necessary process to analyze the direct effect of Drizzle alone. The ban on Swift Swim does NOT necessarily have to be the end product. Notice that this Ban on Swift Swim is removed after the 1st Phase:

If Rain fails Phase 1 (We conclude that Rain is still Broken w/o Swift Swim) - We Remove the ban on Swift Swim and ban Politoed instead

If Rain passes Phase 1 (We conclude that Rain is well tolerated w/o Swift Swim) - We remove the ban on Swift Swim and enter Phase 2 (ban key weather abusers, ie Kingdra, Manaphy, Ludicolo / Kabutops).

Aldaron's combination ban is also solely suggested as one of many options we can take from the results of Phase 2, depending on what the Suspect voters and Policy Makers deem appropriate at that point in time.

This proposal is mainly a two-step process, that would take 2 Suspect Testing Periods. I believe that after we undergo both phases (or the 1st Phase, if Rain doesn't pass Phase 1), we as a community would have a more solid grasp on what aspect of the Rain Offense is undesirable and have a more unified position as to what needs to be done. I believe this is the most logical and respectable way to go, rather than lumping everything associated with Rain or Swift Swimmers in one package and ban or nerf them without any empirical data / experience (which this proposal would allow us to gain).

PS - Thanks, Benlisted, for taking the initiative for me.

The thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85113
The little details of my proposal is always open for discussion. What I am more concerned about is the necessity of investigation of this complex issue between Perma-Weather and its Abusers.


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My nomination:

Doryuuzu (Excadrill): It's been said, and I'll say it again. The ease with which this thing sweeps is utterly ridiculous, once it's few hard counters/checks are removed (Azumarill, Mach Punch users, Nattorei to a degree, Rain teams, etc.). While I do feel Doryuuzu is slightly more containable than past threats, such as Darkrai, especially any Doryuuzu not running SD + Sand Throw and it's in the early- to mid-game. It does, however, essentially get a free kill if it switches into a weaker attack it resists (any Steel-, Normal-, Rock-, Ghost-, Psychic-, Bug-, Dark-, Ground- (if using Balloon), Poison-, weak Dragon- and Flying-type attacks), Swords Dances as the opponent switches out, and basically rapes face from there. This could be said for any powerful sweeper that can do the same thing (Garchomp, Salamence, etc.); however, Doryuuzu stands out as it can basically beat any of its counters/checks one-on-one after a Swords Dance and Sand Throw doubling it's already OK base 88(?) Speed in a Sandstorm (which was determined a common battling condition, and still is in this metagame with Tyranitar being one of the few checks to many of the top threats this round), which makes it impossible for the normal Choice Scarf users from even revenge-killing it, with the sole exception for Flygon (and even then Flygon has a tough time doing so if Doryuuzu is still floating on a Balloon). Even Ditto has a hard time revenging Doryuuzu, especially if Doryuuzu is holding a Balloon and not running Brick Break, as it is then resistant or immune to most of its attacks, while Ditto would generally not be thanks to its Choice Scarf, leaving it exposed to Earthquake.

EDIT: Also, I nominate Deoxys-N to be brought back down for retesting, as I didn't even get to play with it by the time it got banned.
Upon further consideration of recent events, (here) I would like to say that I also support Pocket's Proposal of dealing with weather in general.

Weather is a complex thing in the metagame, it has a diverse effect on almost every aspect. Before completely banning elements like drizzle and drought we should first determine exactly what it is that is broken. Is it the weather itself or its sole abusers. I feel that the system at least provides us with a rational way of sorting out this entire 'Weather Mess'. This would also give us more time to thoroughly examine each aspect of the metagame without 'Swift swim' for example or without 'The Trio' etc. I would also like to add that this new metagame is still in its infancy, rash bans such as banning entire weathers would harm the diversity we've learnt to thrive on in this new metagame. I hope that u all will at least consider this new system and give it a chance. Thanks.

PS - If this system is imposed, i would also like to Retract my previous Nomination on Doryuuzu as he could potentially be dealt with in the same way as stated in this proposal.
If Drizzle goes, Sand Stream should go along with it. Sand's still running almost as rampant as ever, iirc, and will probably end up dominating entirely without rain. Hell, getting rid of infinite sand would probably go a long way towards taking care of that Excadrill problem, for that matter.

I'll reiterate, though, that I feel we're being way too fast with bans and such. The game's not even out yet in most of the world, for God's sake.

Mario With Lasers

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I suck at laddering and couldn't afford to get past 1200, but I also support Pocket's proposal for dealing with perma-weather so we can better determine whether it's Swift Swim, "Kingdra" or "50% boost to Water" the real problem.

I also nominate Deoxys-N to be brought down. I haven't used it, I haven't faced a single one, I haven't even taken it into consideration when building my teams because lol Deoxys-A everywhere. I know people have used it and believe it's broken, but how many of the "Yes" and "Abstain" voters last round had done so?
Posting to state after consideration, I am nominating Deo-N for retesting. I regret abstaining rather than voting OU.

Also, I support Pocket's Proposal. It's the best way to determine what is broken, and the only way we're going to get the whole rain thing behind us without some group grousing.
Just as I was editing that post too >.<
Latios even outside of the current metagame smashes the vast majority of pokemon. Pokemon with it's speed & power are usually much frailer, Latios can take a hit and deliver one back. Spec set's threaten everything, psycho shock allows it to go through dedicated special walls, hidden power fire lets it take out nattorei & scizor. Trick sets allow it to cripple numerous pokemon while retaining fire power. In rain it gets access to Thunder & Stab surf. Unless the screens are set up Latios will hit & run Draco meteors on most steels until they are dead and then go to work on the rest of the team. With the hit & run strategy that it performs so well, Scizor & Tyrannitar are basically the best ways to remove it & with Hidden power Fire, Scizor can revenge scarf & specs versions, get raped by LO latios or CM latios.

Theres not enough pokemon that can manage the hit & run strategy to counter Latios. Sucker Punchers will just be switched out of, or if they have pursuit are too slow to stop Latios from dropping a neutral or special effective attack.

is not rain's strongest Hitter or it's fastest hitter, but it has great typing and stats to use rain to it's fullest. Like Latios before it, Kingdra can also pull off a hit in run, neutrality to electric, 2x resistance to water in rain, 8x fire weakness, grass neutrality, and steel resistance. Kingdra has the benefit of being neutral to all of water's weaknesses. Spec's hydro pump is one of Kingdra's key benefits this generation, however that itself isn't a problem with bulky waters & water immunities. It's not the most powerful thing in rain, it's the most well rounded, and it's proficiency in everything makes it too powerful. Mixed Kingdra & physical kingdra can get through pokemon that a special oriented Kingdra struggles with. Blissey is ousted by physical attacks, Chansey as well, DD Kingdra gets through Tyrannitar even if it switches in, can perform another DD on the switch or simply smash whatever comes in. Nattorei can ruin Kingdra's sweep if Kingdra stays in, however Kingdra manages hit in run quite well, and Nattorei will succumb repeated HP fighting, surfs or Hydro pump with it's lack of self-healing.

I do support Pocket's proposal as well, not just for weather but any field effect.


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I'm down with Pocket's proposal. I assume everyone who supported mine will support his, as it is the same just more rigorous.

EDIT: I would however like to make sure you understand that Pocket's proposal requires 3 entire stages of suspect testing just to take care of essentially Drizzle. A lot of people are saying this might be a waste of resources, from a practical standpoint.
Posting to say I support Pocket's Proposal. I was thinking about this before the thread started, and it's a great idea.
Also, I nominate Deoxys-N to be retested. I used it during round 1, and then used Deoxys-A. They are very different. Deoxys-A hits harder and is faster, and Deoxys-N is a bit bulkier, but is gives up the ability to hit as hard as as Deo-A. Deo-N really only has been able to do a lead set for me, as it is a slower, but bulkier and stronger Deo-S, and that sort of helps it lead-wise.
I nominate that Deoxys-N should be brought down and retested in OU. Last round of testing, he was rarely used. I personally neither used him, or saw anybody use him. He was, rightfully so, overshadowed by his superior for Deoxys-A who is more powerful (30 points in both Atk and Sp Atk). Deoxys-N is slightly bulkier, and does not have the same attacking power as his attack form, but was still banned on the premise that he is similar to the attack form. I do not think that he was fairly tested due to the fact that he was not used much. He deserves to be retested to find out if he is truly as powerful and broken as his attack form is.
I'm basically posting for the first time in ages to say that I support Pocket's Proposal. However, I think it should be done on a separate ladder or something, otherwise there's the obvious complaint about taking forever to handle just one weather effect. Still, it's the fairest way to go about this.

I also support bringing back Normal Forme Deoxys. I thought we were done with bans based on pure theory after the ban on Speed Forme Deoxys in Generation IV. The fact is that we had in support of banning it was theories. This generation is faster and stronger than ever, give it a chance.

I would also like to see Snow Cloak and Sand Veil added to Evasion Clause. That honestly looks like a no-brainer with the Dream World's existence. It adds to evasion, and we don't allow evasion, so we shouldn't allow them. I'm fairly sure everyone remembers that we banned Inconsistent because it was an ability that raised evasion and everything that gets it had access to another ability.

At this point, I would nominate Ferrothrorn (Nattorei), but I think I'll hold off on that until this weather mess is solved.
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