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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
Why doesn't Heracross naturally learn Seismic Toss by level up.
So to take a step back, Pinsir & Heracross are counterparts because of the popularity of beetle fighting. Pinsir is a stag beetle, Heracross is one of various rhinoceros beetles (its mega form is a herculues beetle). THe big way beetles fight is by upending and tossing the opponent away (if anyone has animal crossing, when you start getting a collection of beetles go into the museum, there's always fights like this). As such, Pinsir has had this move since day 1 of its existence and is one of only 10 pokemon to naturally get the move.
This is also probably why Heracross is part fighting at all.
But despite being a fighting type and being a beetle very well equipped for throwing people away it, Heracross only gets it by:
-a special NY Pokemon Center event in Gen 2
-Move tutor in gen 3
-Breeding in gens 5-onward
Which to its credit, breeding is at least a step up from tutoring or not having it all. Just seems a bit odd, is all.
So to take a step back, Pinsir & Heracross are counterparts because of the popularity of beetle fighting. Pinsir is a stag beetle, Heracross is one of various rhinoceros beetles (its mega form is a herculues beetle). THe big way beetles fight is by upending and tossing the opponent away (if anyone has animal crossing, when you start getting a collection of beetles go into the museum, there's always fights like this). As such, Pinsir has had this move since day 1 of its existence and is one of only 10 pokemon to naturally get the move.
This is also probably why Heracross is part fighting at all.
But despite being a fighting type and being a beetle very well equipped for throwing people away it, Heracross only gets it by:
-a special NY Pokemon Center event in Gen 2
-Move tutor in gen 3
-Breeding in gens 5-onward
Which to its credit, breeding is at least a step up from tutoring or not having it all. Just seems a bit odd, is all.
My guess is because it'd be considered a bit too powerful -- it's X-Scissor and Intimidate rolled into one. As-is they've only given it to Pokémon that are meant to be overwhelmingly powerful to begin with (Pherosoma, Buzzwole) or bug-types who have weak physical attack or are weak in general like Mothim and Ariados. Heracross meanwhile is a premier physical attacker, and they probably don't want to buff it by much.
That said, I think it'd be fine; it'd go for Megahorn most of the time anyway and it's not like Lunge would let it survive many physical attacks it otherwise wouldn't -- in general it doesn't want to be doing anything other than OHKOing.
That said, I think it'd be fine; it'd go for Megahorn most of the time anyway and it's not like Lunge would let it survive many physical attacks it otherwise wouldn't -- in general it doesn't want to be doing anything other than OHKOing.
The move is worse than Leech Life, though. The general sustain is better than situational sustain against physical attackers. Both are worse than Megahorn, though. That 120 BP is just too good.
On a related note, why did gen 7 outclass X-Scissor 2 times over, even making the moves TMs to further salt the wound? Buff X-Scissor, even if it’s just a high crit ratio or +10 BP lol
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Well Leech Life is a low distribution move (expecially after the "rework" of gen 7), and so is Lunge.
X-scissor instead is a very high distribution TM (almost every phisical atker can learn it), so it feels fine that it has just average power.
It's not like many of the many non-Bug Pokemon are actually going to use X-Scissor though. Bug is not a commonly sought-after coverage type.
Oh I know, I was just replying to why they don't bother improving it. It's a "general high distribution move" with no special perk, like Shadow Claw basically.
I mean, that too; I wonder what prompted them to make it an actual move. Buzzwole, maybe?
TBF the jump from 10 to 25 BP that Icicle Spear and Bullet Seed had is relatively comparable, though the chances of getting a higher number of hits was nerfed a little as well (ignoring Skill Link, of course)
I honestly don't understand why X-Scissor does not have an increased crit ratio. Cross Poison, a very similar move in terms of look and name (in Japanese and Spanish), does have an increased crit ratio.
And why doesn't they make a new move as an upgraded spell in RPG? (for example, Fira to Firaga) (or even pokemon example, Water Gun to Surf) (or fellow draining Absorb, Mega Drain, and Giga Drain)
So it would be like 20BP Leech Life to 80BP "Bloodsuck" or something
Funny thing is that "Suck Blood" is the Japanese name of Leech Life. It was censored for obvious reasons if you look at 90's era Nintendo localizations.
Alakazam, Espeon, Delphox, and Hatterene share one weird trait. They lack powerful special Electric moves most Psychic types get. Alakazam and Espeon get Charge Beam, Delphox gets Shockwave, and Hatterene's only Electric move is Nuzzle. Hatterene's G-max dex entry even mentions shooting thunderbolts and the animation for G-max Smite shows thunderbolts, but it can't learn Thunderbolt.
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It might just be GF's weird "balancing" touches or in the case of Hatterene the dex writers not being in touch with the team who decide the mon's movepool, but let me try to find some logic here.
Perhaps the reason Alakazam dosen't get thunderbolt is due to its spoons being very good conductors, and thus harm Alakazam when it uses it? Well, recoil moves like double edge and steel beam exist, but Alakazam's smart enough to not put it in danger by whittling down its hp. (Its spdef might be impressive, but the hp stat is as low as my chem grades). Then the problem comes from its HA, Magic Guard, protecting it from chip damage, but its not like every abra is born with it so it gets a pass from me.
As for Hat, I went amd looked up other g max moves, and I discovered something interesting. Did you know that despite the fact tht Orbeetle's gmax summoms gravity onto the field, it actually cant learn the move? Perhaps gigantamaxing unlocked hatt's hidden afinity to electricity, not so different than megas gaining new typings.
Psychic-type Pokémon and Electric-type moves have really weird interactions. Like Reuniclus being able to learn Thunder, Thunder Wave and Thunder Punch, but not Thunderbolt. An incredibly powerful, but uncontrolled and inaccurate electric discharge (Thunder) is okay, but a weaker, controlled and accurate discharge (Thunderbolt) is not.
Could there be some sort of underlying explanation behind the low amount of overlap between them? I mean, in eight generations we only have one Electric/Psychic-type Pokémon (not counting the UFO from Pokéstar).
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Tying the explanation to the spoons seems particularly reasonable since Zam can learn Thunderpunch. You can also extend a similar line of thought to Delphox (minus the discussion of magic guard, of course). The flames on the torch would be conductive due to being plasma, and it also learns thunderpunch.
Psychic types can learn various electric moves due to how brains use electrical signals. At least that is what I think.
Alakazam and Espeon can learn Zap Cannon in Gen II via TM. Hypno, Slowbro and Slowking also have Zap Cannon as the only special Electric move they can learn at all. While not a good move, it is powerful in the sense that it has high BP.
There are also quite a bit more Psychic types than what you listed that get no powerful special electric type moves at all, and since you included Delphox and Hatterene other dual-types are also valid to point out(But there are also some pure psychics you didn't list, too, like Musharna). Just from Gen I alone you have Exeggutor and Jynx.
So I'm going through all the psychic-types for trends in their special coverage, and I can't help but notice this weird fact:
Every gen 5 pure Psychic learns Rock Slide and Rock Tomb, and are the only special-focused Psychics to do so that are not rock, ground, or steel types (counting mewtwo, mew, deoxys, and necrozma as mixed rather than special-focused).
Every gen 5 pure Psychic learns Rock Slide and Rock Tomb, and are the only special-focused Psychics to do so that are not rock, ground, or steel types (counting mewtwo, mew, deoxys, and necrozma as mixed rather than special-focused).
So I was playing XD earlier today and an opponent Claydol used Dig. I can understand this to a point because it's of course Ground-Type, but it still struck me as odd. Surely Levitate / Flying-Type should supersede other reasoning and preclude the Pokémon from learning Dig? I've looked into it more and here's every Pokémon who really shouldn't be able to Dig, but can learn it. Pokémon who evolve from something that can learn Dig aren't included because it's too easy.
What was interesting to me when looking into this is how there are far fewer Pokémon in later gens who learn the move but for who digging a hole doesn't really make sense for. There are some contentious ones who could be honourable mentions (Helioptile for instance) but they can all be reasoned out, and Game Freak were more choosey with who got the move. For instance, while Poliwag, Poliwhirl and Poliwrath all learn Dig despite it not making sense for Poliwag, only Seismitoad can learn Dig since Tympole and Palpitoad have no hands so they'd have nothing to dig with.
-- Poor guy, it has no hands haha. Poliwhirl and Poliwrath are fine, but I don't see why Poliwag can learn it at all.
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-- Isn't the entire point of these two that they're water pollution / sludge? That seems far too soft to dig a hole with, even though it has hands. Perhaps it's a reference to how sludge slowly seeps into the ground, but to my knowledge it doesn't really resurface by itself.
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-- They're both Flying-Type and have boxing gloves-like hands. I feel like digging a hole with boxing gloves would be hard.
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-- Poor guy, it has no hands haha v.2.0. These are at least Ground-Type, but that's more so to do swamp-dwelling / mud-based attacks than digging. I guess Wooper's tail can use Ice Punch though, so maybe it can dig a hole too. Quagsire does have hands... but not arms. That seems rough to dig with.
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-- Poor guy, it has no hands haha v.3.0 and v.4.0. Not to mention Forretress levitates too despite not having the ability. The base of Pineco could maybe be a drill, but if it were solid enough to do so then I think it would be Steel- or Rock-Type right?
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-- I can understand this a little more since it has pincers and a scorpion tail which could believably dig a hole, and it has legitimate feet to land on the ground with. This one is probably OK, but I'd prefer if it didn't learn the move because of being Flying-Type still.
-- I didn't include Cyndaquil because it's based on a burrower irl, but Swinub isn't so what gives? Piloswine can burrow with its tusks if it really wants to, but Swinub has nothing to dig with at all. This is the only Pokémon on the list to use the move in the anime too, and it for real just jumps into the ground head-first and disappears beneath it somehow. Like Wooper, it's Ground-Type for mud-based attacks and general terra magic, I don't see the digging here.
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-- Not levitating or Flying-Type, but what can it dig with? Coral often lays on the ocean floor, but not beneath it.
-- Poor guy, it has no hands haha v.5.0. Kinda like Pineco here since both acorns and pinecones famously fall off trees onto the ground beneath them I guess, but still an odd one.
-- I feel like digging a hole with boxing gloves would be hard v.2.0. Hariyama also looks like it struggles to touch its toes, but I guess if it lay on the ground and used only one arm it could manage it so it only gets an honourable mention, but then I question why mons like Snorlax don't learn it.
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-- I said that I wouldn't include Pokémon whose prevos can use it just fine while they can't, but these two are a special case because as of Gen VIII only they learn it at Level 1. Similarly to Gligar, Ninjask at least has digging utensils, but Shedinja has no way to do so and constantly levitates. I guess it fits into the ninja motif of disappearing and reappearing, but they had a great opportunity here to give each stage of the family a unique semi-invulnerable turn move to fit with their differences. Nincada learns Dig at level 1, while Ninjask learns Fly and Shedinja learns Phantom Force. That would've been cool. BTW, Nincada only learns Dig at level 40 unless you use a TM, meaning Shedinja and Ninjask can learn it 20 levels earlier than it.
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-- Another Ground-Type to make the list, but really what could it dig with? Its snout? These two are more terra magic / volcano dudes than burrowers. Though I'd like to see a camel try and dig a hole. If "magma lies underground so it counts" worked, then Magcargo and Slugma would also be able to learn Dig.
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-- These two are actually in the same boat where as of Gen VIII only they also learn Dig at level 1. Why? Vibrava especially has nothing to dig with, and while I suppose Flygon believably can, it's through using its stubby little arms only.
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-- I don't really understand this for either of them. I suppose the bottom of Baltoy could be used as a drill?
-- I feel like digging a hole with boxing gloves would be hard v.3.0. Technically they're as hard as rock so it's more forgivable, but scraping a totally round rock into the ground to dig a hole wears the rock away more than the ground. Notably, Registeel can't learn the move even though it could probably perform it easier.
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-- Digging a hole with a beak would probably take 5 turns. Those flippers don't offer much assistance. Empoleon has a trident it can use to dig with, though.
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-- These two I'm a little less sure about because they probably could burrow with their feet as they're clawed, but I'm including them because for a biped that seems insanely impractical. Also they're T-Rexes with cute lil stubby arms that definitely can't reach the ground unless they faceplant while digging.
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-- I'm surprised at their inclusion, but these two learning it via level up is odd considering they really have nothing to dig with either. Their whole shtick is more so being the ground rather than digging beneath it. They also only got the move in HGSS, so when they were first introduced it seems the devs agreed.
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-- Poor guy, it has no hands haha v.6.0. Bonsly would definitely also cry when asked to dig. I feel like digging a hole with boxing gloves would be hard v.4.0. Sudowoodo has ball-hands that seem hard to dig with, but they're at least as hard as rock so like Regirock it's feasible, just really impractical, and would likely result in more damage to Sudowoodo than the ground itself.
-- Poor guy, it has no hands haha v.7.0. Notably, the other two Wormadam formes (nor Burmy) learn the move, only Wormadam-Sandy. It is Ground-Type, but there's still nothing for it to dig with. The rocks right on the top of it? They're not even limbs.
-- Poor guy, it has no hands haha v.8.0. Like Wooper and Swinub, this is Ground-Type because of mud-based attacks and other general terra magic, as opposed to being a burrower. There's really no way it can dig.
-- The entire purpose of these Pokémon is to lay in wait of prey on the ground, not beneath it. Stunfisk has nothing to dig with at all since every edge seems rounded, while Stunfisk-Galar probably can dig with its sharp metal parts but it would require exposing its underbelly as it does so, which is a weak spot. When you're already flat, going underground doesn't seem to offer much utility.
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-- Poor guy, it has no hands haha v.8.0 and v.9.0. These two are based on coal, which obviously is mined underground. But I don't think the coal's underground because it dug down there itself, right? As a reach, when you drive your car off-road in somewhere like mud, it can dig a couple of cms underground and get stuck. But that really is a reach.
-- Can learn the move (by level-up even) while Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee can't. I just thought this was curious since it implies that Hitmontop really does drill into the ground with the top of its head, which seems a little suspect to me. Hitmonchan not learning the move does grant credence to my theory that digging a hole with boxing gloves / balls sounds hard, though.
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-- Abra can't learn Dig, and while Abra does have a tiny movepool, it leads me to the conclusion that Kadabra and Alakazam really do only dig with their spoons. This is funny to me.
-- A weak inclusion since it totally can dig a hole... but if it were to do so, it'd probably accidentally use Fissure at the same time. That'd be one big hole.
What was interesting to me when looking into this is how there are far fewer Pokémon in later gens who learn the move but for who digging a hole doesn't really make sense for. There are some contentious ones who could be honourable mentions (Helioptile for instance) but they can all be reasoned out, and Game Freak were more choosey with who got the move. For instance, while Poliwag, Poliwhirl and Poliwrath all learn Dig despite it not making sense for Poliwag, only Seismitoad can learn Dig since Tympole and Palpitoad have no hands so they'd have nothing to dig with.
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So I was playing XD earlier today and an opponent Claydol used Dig. I can understand this to a point because it's of course Ground-Type, but it still struck me as odd. Surely Levitate / Flying-Type should supersede other reasoning and preclude the Pokémon from learning Dig? I've looked into it more and here's every Pokémon who really shouldn't be able to Dig, but can learn it. Pokémon who evolve from something that can learn Dig aren't included because it's too easy.
Honourable mentions not previously covered (didn't quite make the list but are interesting):
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What was interesting to me when looking into this is how there are far fewer Pokémon in later gens who learn the move but for who digging a hole doesn't really make sense for. There are some contentious ones who could be honourable mentions (Helioptile for instance) but they can all be reasoned out, and Game Freak were more choosey with who got the move. For instance, while Poliwag, Poliwhirl and Poliwrath all learn Dig despite it not making sense for Poliwag, only Seismitoad can learn Dig since Tympole and Palpitoad have no hands so they'd have nothing to dig with.
For the Ground-types at least - every Ground-type that learns Dig with the sole exception of Nincada also learns Earthquake (please ignore the fact that almost every Ground-type learns Earthquake). Since Dig seems to be less the actual act of digging and more "go underground somehow" I would work under the assumption that the mons with Earthquake are literally breaking apart the ground in a much more localized area to sink into it.
I considered this, but decided against it as valid reasoning because the Pokémon also have to burrow back to the surface somehow. You could get complicated and argue that they use terra magic to shoot up the ground beneath them once they're already underground in order to propel them back out, but opening up the ground above them with another localised earthquake would deal a massive amount of damage to themselves, since if Earthquake is used against a Pokémon who's underground it deals double damage.