Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[sumwun]

Usually could one shot the Wingull with Ice Beam while the Carvanha didn't take Surfs and Tentacool went down to Confusions once Golduck had levels under its belt, but Surf and Ice Beam are not conducive to one shotting the not frail Water-types used by trainers in general, no.

By "normal attacks", I meant strength and return. Do those work?

 

[Karxrida]

Heracross also comes around the same time as post-Norman Manectric

Um, not really? Manectric gets to participate in several major fights (where it has pretty solid matchups, especially in Sapphire and Emerald) and like 5 routes before you get to Heracross.

Heracross isn't as good against Winona, Tate and Liza, and Wallace, but Manectric isn't as good against just about everyone else.

Manectric is better than Heracross against Phoebe, if only by the virtue of having a Dark move to do something. Mane also has a decent time against Glacia (Hera is obviously better but it's not a landslide victory over Mane) and there's the obvious Emerald Wallace matchup.

 

[sumwun]

Manectric is better than Heracross against Phoebe, if only by the virtue of having a Dark move to do something. Mane also has a decent time against Glacia (Hera is obviously better but it's not a landslide victory over Mane) and there's the obvious Emerald Wallace matchup.

STAB thunderbolt is actually stronger than super effective bite, but I guess both are still stronger than Heracross's earthquake.
By the way, I'm still genuinely curious about what happens when you teach strength or return to a Golduck and use it, instead of surf or confusion, to cover water. Does it work?

 

[Merritt]

By the way, I'm still genuinely curious about what happens when you teach strength or return to a Golduck and use it, instead of surf or confusion, to cover water. Does it work?

Strength may work, however I didn't teach it to Golduck since it was already being used by Machoke. It probably makes the water types slightly easier to take down, however it's barely stronger than a resisted surf (which is the rough equivalent of a neutral 71 BP move off Golduck's stronger attacking stat) and so I doubt that it'd be good enough to actually start OHKOing opponents.

Return would be very weak for a while, since Psyduck is picked up very close to when the water routes start. It'll be weaker than Strength for pretty much all of the relevant portions.

 

[Karxrida]

STAB thunderbolt is actually stronger than super effective bite, but I guess both are still stronger than Heracross's earthquake.

Bite lets you conserve Thunderbolt PP, which notable for the Dusclops and their Pressure.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Updating post-Lilycove, pre-water routes

Breloom, level 40, Impish nature @ Miracle Seed
HP: 109 / Atk: 127 / Def: 84 / SpA: 60 / SpD: 57 / Spe: 74
Sky Uppercut / Strength / Mega Drain / Bulk Up

- I've gone into detail about this in previous posts, from everything I've seen from this to date it's an easy S tier and IMO a far better fighter than Torchic

Beautifly, level 40, Bold nature @ Lax Incense
HP: 113 / Atk: 67 / Def: 59 / SpA: 86 / SpD: 50 / Spe: 72
Silver Wind / Aerial Ace / Giga Drain / Morning Sun

- Despite the nature nerfing its primary attacking stat, Beautifly has been very capable of holding its own. Still have to see if it just dies once we hit Victory Road but we're hitting a point where it takes stride with water routes and Tate and Liza, looks to be a comfortable D tier, maaaaaaybe C at a stretch, but definitely not E.

Claydol, level 41, Quirky nature @ Hard Stone
HP: 105 / Atk: 74 / Def: 99 / SpA: 75 / SpD: 110 / Spe: 73
Psychic / Dig / Ancientpower / Hyper Beam

- Baltoy blows but Claydol is quite good, fat, hits decently hard, good stab coverage with the Ice Beam option available. Should definitely be D instead of E.

Altaria, level 40, Hasty nature @ Silk Scarf
HP: 125 / Atk: 67 / Def: 72 / SpA: 72 / SpD: 99 / Spe: 80
Fly / Steel Wing / Dragonbreath / Dragon Dance

- Probably a D tier mon if it comes in the mid-game but availability pushes it to C. It's fairly decent, bulky as shit and using Secret Power and Steel Wing TMs mitigates the awful Swablu stage. Can't OHKO anything until it gets Fly and then only type weaks or frail stuff, but will usually 2HKO while taking little damage.

Absol, level 40, Timid nature @ Blackglasses
HP: 114 / Atk: 105 / Def: 62 / SpA: 73 / SpD: 60 / Spe: 75
Slash / Ice Beam / Bite / Shock Wave

- Really unsure if this is D or C, has a lot of pros and also a lot of cons. Even with my having a -Atk nature its attack stat is so high that Quick Attack and Slash still tear things up, but it's movepool encourages it to go special or mixed so it ends up being a very potent mixed attacked. On the other hand it is quite TM dependent as Slash and Bite are its only real options otherwise and the TMs it wants generally have some demand. On the other hand it comes at a high level and if you're giving it the TMs I did it has Fortree gym and a bunch of local double battles as ready made training spots. On the other hand it comes relatively late and I'm suspecting its late game will fall off as this is likely its optimal moveset. I can see it in C but conservatively I'd say D is appropriate.

Just Lanturn left to acquire and test and then the end-game to run through

 

[Merritt]

Updating post-Lilycove, pre-water routes

Breloom, level 40, Impish nature @ Miracle Seed
HP: 109 / Atk: 127 / Def: 84 / SpA: 60 / SpD: 57 / Spe: 74
Sky Uppercut / Strength / Mega Drain / Bulk Up

- I've gone into detail about this in previous posts, from everything I've seen from this to date it's an easy S tier and IMO a far better fighter than Torchic

Beautifly, level 40, Bold nature @ Lax Incense
HP: 113 / Atk: 67 / Def: 59 / SpA: 86 / SpD: 50 / Spe: 72
Silver Wind / Aerial Ace / Giga Drain / Morning Sun

- Despite the nature nerfing its primary attacking stat, Beautifly has been very capable of holding its own. Still have to see if it just dies once we hit Victory Road but we're hitting a point where it takes stride with water routes and Tate and Liza, looks to be a comfortable D tier, maaaaaaybe C at a stretch, but definitely not E.

Claydol, level 41, Quirky nature @ Hard Stone
HP: 105 / Atk: 74 / Def: 99 / SpA: 75 / SpD: 110 / Spe: 73
Psychic / Dig / Ancientpower / Hyper Beam

- Baltoy blows but Claydol is quite good, fat, hits decently hard, good stab coverage with the Ice Beam option available. Should definitely be D instead of E.

Altaria, level 40, Hasty nature @ Silk Scarf
HP: 125 / Atk: 67 / Def: 72 / SpA: 72 / SpD: 99 / Spe: 80
Fly / Steel Wing / Dragonbreath / Dragon Dance

- Probably a D tier mon if it comes in the mid-game but availability pushes it to C. It's fairly decent, bulky as shit and using Secret Power and Steel Wing TMs mitigates the awful Swablu stage. Can't OHKO anything until it gets Fly and then only type weaks or frail stuff, but will usually 2HKO while taking little damage.

Absol, level 40, Timid nature @ Blackglasses
HP: 114 / Atk: 105 / Def: 62 / SpA: 73 / SpD: 60 / Spe: 75
Slash / Ice Beam / Bite / Shock Wave

- Really unsure if this is D or C, has a lot of pros and also a lot of cons. Even with my having a -Atk nature its attack stat is so high that Quick Attack and Slash still tear things up, but it's movepool encourages it to go special or mixed so it ends up being a very potent mixed attacked. On the other hand it is quite TM dependent as Slash and Bite are its only real options otherwise and the TMs it wants generally have some demand. On the other hand it comes at a high level and if you're giving it the TMs I did it has Fortree gym and a bunch of local double battles as ready made training spots. On the other hand it comes relatively late and I'm suspecting its late game will fall off as this is likely its optimal moveset. I can see it in C but conservatively I'd say D is appropriate.

Just Lanturn left to acquire and test and then the end-game to run through

Highly recommend grabbing the Shadow Ball TM for Absol from Mt Pyre, even with the Timid nature and Blackglasses it's going to be stronger than Bite. Same kind of deal with a Slash -> Strength upgrade, it's sacrificing 5 PP for a bit more power which can be helpful for turning the 2HKOs into OHKOs. If you get really invested into making Absol good you can buy an extra Thunderbolt TM to upgrade Shock Wave, but that's one of the less great things for Absol.

Interested in seeing the end of the run.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Already have Shadow Ball and I'll likely take that advice, the only other Pokemon who would be a viable user is Beautifly interestingly enough, though Silver Wind mostly covers the same things. Slash I'll probably keep just because the crits can be occasionally viable (as vs Liza and Tate a few minutes ago when I was struggling to break through a double Ancientpower boosted Claydol) and because I'm pedantic about HMs when Breloom already has it :p. Thunderbolt may or may not be worth bothering with, but I'll consider it considering I'm starting the water routes. The first TM is obviously being saved for Lanturn and Ice Beam covers most of the bulkier stuff I'd be hitting with Thunderbolt, but it's a good idea.

edit: Interestingly enough Altaria ended up being the MVP of the Tate and Liza fight (assume everything above had one extra level). They wiped me easily when I led Absol and Beautifly so I led Claydol and Altaria instead, focus firing the Xatu with Ancientpowers while Altaria set up two DDs, given the occasional Soda Pop it took down Xatu and was then able to 2HKO the deadly Lunatone and Solrock before dying to the aforementioned broken Claydol which then tore through everything except my own Claydol, Beautifly coming in to finish it off once it had burned through Ancientpower and Psychic (thank you Absol Pressure).

edit2: dumped my 5 other rare candies into chinchou to evolve and a pp max into thunderbolt, currently tearing the shit out of every single thing in existence on the water routes, up to level 38 already

 

[Karxrida]

Speaking of Rare Candies, how many can you get that aren't out of the way? They're a pretty important resource that can mitigate some issues with grindier Pokémon.

Like Colosseum Vibrava only really works because you're handed 3 Rare Candies.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I don't know about out of the way but including the one I've picked up on the water routes I've gotten at least 10

Off-hand memory guess probably 5 or 6 that you'd expect any random person to come across\

Finished up all the water routes and heading to finish off Aqua, Rayquaza, Juan, Victory Road, and the Elite Four next. Levels are 43 (Breloom, Beautifly, Lanturn, Altaria), 44 (Absol), and 45 (Claydol). Lanturn has Surf, Thunderbolt, Dive, Confuse Ray


Chinchou could see an argument for C tier, in theory you only need 1 Rare Candy to immediately evolve it into Lanturn and then you teach it Thunderbolt and between that and Spark it's an immediately self-sufficient route cleaner for the massive amounts of water trainers upcoming. Argument against is obviously the late arrival but you could argue that there's few better Pokemmon for late-game efficiency, similar to Staryu (whose Speed likely is reflective of it being B while Chinchou being C)

 

[Merritt]

Speaking of Rare Candies, how many can you get that aren't out of the way? They're a pretty important resource that can mitigate some issues with grindier Pokémon.

Like Colosseum Vibrava only really works because you're handed 3 Rare Candies.

Virtually completely free: Route 111, Route 114 (after obtaining Waterfall use, Fly from Evergrande or Sootopolis to Fallarbor, takes less than a minute total), Route 120 hidden next to surf Full Heal, Petalburg City (with Surf), Mt Pyre summit

With caveat: Route 120 north if you have a cutmon, Route 123 if you're going for Giga Drain anyways, Route 108 if you were going for Ice Beam anyways, Route 110 (after Surf) and Magma Hideout if you're willing to take the couple minute detour

Most of these are hidden so you need to know the location to press A, but all in all you should probably have at least 5, and possibly 8-10.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

...and the run might be dead. My phone battery died without warning so I've lost all the progress I've gained today from Lilycove Aqua Hideout all the way to Lilycove underwater hideout clearing everything in the water route and mossdeep and all of pacidfidlog. I rather doubt I'll find the motivation to do that kind of grinding again, if there's one thing I hate it's redoing shit in video games.

edit: Reckon my opinions are clear from the above, only thing to adjust is that beautifly should be definitively D, no argument for C once the power of its attacks falls off too far in the late game. altaria C, breloom S, lanturn C, absol probably C, claydol D

 

[Punchshroom]

Beautifly definitely doesn't warrant D in my eyes. Merely "holding its own" isn't enough merit for a rise, since other earlygame E Ranks like Sableye, Whismur, and Plusle/Minun can hold their own as well. In particular, I don't see how Beautifly outshines the likes of Dustox enough to rise up in Rank; both trivialize Brawly, and while Beautifly has (relatively) better route-cleaning potential, Dustox is able to cheese another matchup in Norman thanks to its access to Protect, and immediately afterward gain the Sludge Bomb TM to keep its pitiful offenses remotely relevant (and by extent catch up to Beautifly), and eventually has the option to Toxic stuff, provided you're not bothered to backtrack to Fiery Path for the TM. You've also already hit the point in the game where Beautifly's pitiful stats really start to rear their ugly head, judging from its inability to even last through the Tate & Liza fight despite the type advantage, much less take out a Pokemon.

On one hand, I am unimpressed by Claydol's performance in Texas Cloverleaf's playthrough so far. Even though Baltoy's dead period is slightly lessened since its Psychic + Rock coverage is handy on the road to Fortree, it's still not able to contribute against Winona much (bar Rock Tomb speed drops vs Altaria I guess, though it's only 80% accurate :/), and it doesn't get any easier for Baltoy/Claydol from there, especially in Emerald where it has to fight more Aqua Grunts and is weakened/unviable in its two most important matchups: Drake and the Champion. On the other hand, perhaps I've been a bit too harsh on Baltoy; it's not easy to train up and may even warrant Rare Candies as mentioned earlier, but it does outperform the E Ranks and probably does fit better with the likes of Natu and Girafarig lol, so I wouldn't mind rescinding my prior suggestion.

One mon that personally does look very off in the D Ranks is this one:

D to E Rank

When you obtain Anorith, it comes very underleveled, is super frail, and its only real means of offense is the Rock Tomb TM, which is a pretty awful move to rely on for your main attack. Worse yet, no better attack will come until a whopping 17 levels later (too late for Winona), where all it gets is the 5 PP Ancientpower. Already these traits translate into a pretty terrible route sweeper, much less gym-worthy contributor, but it doesn't end there. Once Anorith evolves it becomes slower and thus liable to be outsped by nearly everything, so it transforms from a glass cannon rifle pistol to a Potion-sponge tank. This mon just doesn't seem to have much of anything; Anorith doesn't have the movepool to leverage its paper thin bulk and evolves super late, then as an Armaldo it becomes this really inefficient slow tank with no good resistances, whose only claim to fame is one of the strongest Rock-type attacks in the game, which is becomes much less impressive when you find out it's still only on par with Solrock's Rock Slide. Armaldo's TM movepool doesn't improve much either, with Brick Break being the only one of note to improve the Sidney matchup and beat Steven's Aggron lol (Earthquake is too high-demand and largely unnecessary for Armaldo tbh). Needless to say, Armaldo also has poor important matchups, where it just gets outmatched by faster mons with stronger (sometimes super effective) STABs, only really beating a handful of mons in the entire Elite 4 (and even then realistically only one mon per E4 member) and being utter deadweight against both Champions. Jeez, even Lileep doesn't have it quite this rough when it comes to endgame bosses.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

That's a super disingenuous misrepresentation of how I've been describing Beautifly's performance across my posts in this thread and you should be ashamed of yourself. When I say hold it's own I mean that from level 13 through level 40 I've had no issues with it's performance and its bulk/power combination has made it a very effective route cleaner despite it's poor matchups against major fights excepting brawly and may.

"Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be average. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals. "

This is the fairest description of its performance.

claydol doesn't give a shit about aqua grunts, psychic for zubats, digs for poochy/mighteynas, literally anything for carvanhas. not sure how claydol is unviable vs drake, if you choose to give it ice beam it auto wins flygon and contributes a great deal vs mence since its bulk will tank at least one hit with reliability, or you can choose to have it solo shelgon at cost of some bulk

agree with anorith, its bad (beautifly is better than anorith)

 

[Punchshroom]

That's a super disingenuous misrepresentation of how I've been describing Beautifly's performance across my posts in this thread and you should be ashamed of yourself. When I say hold it's own I mean that from level 13 through level 40 I've had no issues with it's performance and its bulk/power combination has made it a very effective route cleaner despite it's poor matchups against major fights excepting brawly and may.

"Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be average. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals. "

This is the fairest description of its performance.

Ok first off, let's not resort to condescending remarks and kindly hop off that high horse you've perched yourself on for a moment. If all Beautifly has been doing so far is 'coasting through wild mons and route trainers', that is hardly noteworthy at all (if anything, mons that can't even do that well are F worthy), especially since I do not expect Beautifly to be OHKOing a majority of opponents unless it's overleveled. The thing is, E Tier can also be an apt description for Beautifly imo:

"Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be low. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a small amount of opponents and tend to be matchup-based enough to need item reliance to assist in sweeping a few opponents. The usefulness of these Pokémon are typically counterbalanced by many visible flaws or are useful Pokémon that come very late."

Visible flaws being stats that fall off as early as Gym 3 in terms of important matchups (a mon's stats honestly don't noticeably fall off against route trainers, as that one guy who once argued to death over Chimecho had already implied), STABs that don't even reach over 60 BP (every single other E Tier bar Ninjask has a stronger form of STAB, more on Jask later), and pretty much zero contribution in important matchups after Brawly (ex: its epic fail against Tate & Liza). I suspect your Beautifly's only chance to shine is against Sidney where it can OHKO the Grass/Darks, which is not an impressive feat. Even then, Sharpedo may be able to 1v1 you if it survives, and Emerald Absol carries the threat of Rock Slide. You can also Giga Drain Wallace's Whiscash, but since you've been lugging around Mega Drain on Breloom for god knows what reason you already have that covered, and Breloom beats Whiscash without Grass moves anyway.

claydol doesn't give a shit about aqua grunts, psychic for zubats, digs for poochy/mighteynas, literally anything for carvanhas. not sure how claydol is unviable vs drake, if you choose to give it ice beam it auto wins flygon and contributes a great deal vs mence since its bulk will tank at least one hit with reliability, or you can choose to have it solo shelgon at cost of some bulk

Perhaps I should have added "respectively" when I said "Emerald Claydol weakened/unviable in its two most important matchups: Drake and the Champion"; Ruby/Sapphire Claydol is capable of pretty much clean sweeping Drake, but Kingdra's presence means it can't quite do so in Emerald. Also I don't understand 'soloing Shelgon at cost of some bulk'; what do you mean by "costing bulk"? Almost nothing loses to Shelgon, not even Armaldo lol (but hey ho, Beautifly can lose to Rock Tomb).


On the subject of E Ranks, can we talk about Ninjask? Despite the utter nightmare that is training up a Nincada, I can at least understand if it's for the payoff of the ultimate cheese mon that is Shedinja. What exactly does Ninjask offer in this regard? It's still operating with basically no real attacking moves, and unlike Shedinja it can't build Fury Cutter up to respectable levels against much of anything; Ninjask doesn't even get any usable Bug STAB by the end of it, and its natural access to Swords Dance simply can't back it up, especially with how paper thin it is. This mon is by all accounts just an even worse route cleaner than Beautifly, which is an atrocious résumé.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I mean eating a couple hits from shelgon men's you aren't tanking mence, and you will be likely 3hkoing shelgon

 

[Punchshroom]

I mean eating a couple hits from shelgon men's you aren't tanking mence, and you will be likely 3hkoing shelgon

a Claydol ~5 levels lower than Shelgon can 2HKO with Ice Beam on average, and that same Claydol also 2HKOes his level 55 Salamence. In Ruby/Sapphire, all you'd need is an X Speed, 2 X Sp.Atks, and a Hyper Potion to heal off Shelgon's Crunch, and you're set to clean sweep. In emerald, while the Shelgon replaced crunch for double-edge, Drake also has a Kingdra to stop the sweep.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

On the subject of E Ranks, can we talk about Ninjask? Despite the utter nightmare that is training up a Nincada, I can at least understand if it's for the payoff of the ultimate cheese mon that is Shedinja. What exactly does Ninjask offer in this regard? It's still operating with basically no real attacking moves, and unlike Shedinja it can't build Fury Cutter up to respectable levels against much of anything; Ninjask doesn't even get any usable Bug STAB by the end of it, and its natural access to Swords Dance simply can't back it up, especially with how paper thin it is. This mon is by all accounts just an even worse route cleaner than Beautifly, which is an atrocious résumé.

I was ready to defend Ninjask, but the more I think about it the more I agree. To get ANYTHING out of early-to-mid-game Ninjask you’ll have to teach it Secret Power, then Dig and later Aerial Ace, which can all be put to better use by other Pokémon. EDIT: you can also gamble for a good Hidden Power after you get Secret Power I guess, which might make a significant difference.

The only potentially redeeming parts of the Ninjask experience are Flannery and Norman. If you let Flannery’s Slugma (RS)/Numel (E) spam Overheat against other Pokémon until it’s at -6 SpA with no Overheat PP left, you can set up and sweep with Dig. I remember doing that in Emerald at least, although Numel has Take Down so even then it’s risky. It doesn’t have to be said that this is a horrendously all-or-nothing strategy. Against Norman, if you come in after a Slaking KOs something, you can use Swords Dance on the Truant turn and cheese through with Dig.

Ironically I think Ninjask’s performance at this point in the game feels worse against random route trainers than in significant battles, and I can’t really pretend that the two scenarios I listed make up for the awful time as a Nincada or the rest of the game where Ninjask is basically completely useless.

 

[Merritt]

Just a quick reminder that Secret Power is buyable for $3000 after you get the free one, so it’s essentially a free TM. Heavily discourage regarding it as any sort of opportunity cost to teach any Pokemon, and if they’re physical and don’t have access to Strength there’s a good chance you should teach it to them.

That’s all.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Just a quick reminder that Secret Power is buyable for $3000 after you get the free one, so it’s essentially a free TM. Heavily discourage regarding it as any sort of opportunity cost to teach any Pokemon, and if they’re physical and don’t have access to Strength there’s a good chance you should teach it to them.

That’s all.

Oh you’re right, I completely forgot about that. Or rather, in my head I always assumed that that shop didn’t get unlocked until later, like after you got the free TM10 in Fortree.

 

[sumwun]

Ninjask also gets cut (to use before learning secret power) and shadow ball. It can sweep a few trainers with a moveset of swords dance, baton pass, and some combination of aerial ace, dig, and shadow ball, and the chance that all 3 of those TMs get taken by teammates isn't very likely.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Ninjask also gets cut (to use before learning secret power) and shadow ball. It can sweep a few trainers with a moveset of swords dance, baton pass, and some combination of aerial ace, dig, and shadow ball, and the chance that all 3 of those TMs get taken by teammates isn't very likely.

Nitpicking here, but Fury Swipes is better than Cut to use, especially for the Nincada phase because not only does Fury Swipes have 100% accuracy thanks to Compound-Eyes (so does Cut but not missing Swipes is kinda big), but it will on average deal more damage (54 BP on average), it doesn't lock out a move-slot until Lilycove when you can finally get rid of Cut, and you don't even need Cut to beat the game. Not to mention, by the time Nincada finally evolves into Ninjask, you are most likely around or have beaten Wattson and there's no forced fights between Wattson and Secret Power so you can seamlessly transition to Secret Power.

The only things Cut really has over Fury Swipes is that you get it earlier, it deals consistent damage, and it has more PP, but IMO it isn't worth locking a moveslot over and Scratch can do just fine.

EDIT: Minor correction but I used Gen V+ rates instead of Gen III rates for Fury Swipes BP so it's actually 54 on average instead of 57. Point still stands though.

 

[sumwun]

Nitpicking here, but Fury Swipes is better than Cut to use, especially for the Nincada phase because not only does Fury Swipes have 100% accuracy thanks to Compound-Eyes (so does Cut but not missing Swipes is kinda big), but it will on average deal more damage (54 BP on average), it doesn't lock out a move-slot until Lilycove when you can finally get rid of Cut, and you don't even need Cut to beat the game. Not to mention, by the time Nincada finally evolves into Ninjask, you are most likely around or have beaten Wattson and there's no forced fights between Wattson and Secret Power so you can seamlessly transition to Secret Power.

The only things Cut really has over Fury Swipes is that you get it earlier, it deals consistent damage, and it has more PP, but IMO it isn't worth locking a moveslot over and Scratch can do just fine.

Cut does more damage until turn 4, so it's better when Nincada/Ninjask can 3HKO the opponent. Cut also gets resisted by less stuff, especially Brawly's Pokemon. And the move slot locking shouldn't matter because Ninjask can't learn 4 good moves either way. (shadow ball and baton pass are both learned after Lilycove)

 

[Merritt]

Cut does more damage until turn 4, so it's better when Nincada/Ninjask can 3HKO the opponent. Cut also gets resisted by less stuff, especially Brawly's Pokemon. And the move slot locking shouldn't matter because Ninjask can't learn 4 good moves either way. (shadow ball and baton pass are both learned after Lilycove)

Fury Swipes =/= Fury Cutter. Fury cutter is the terrible 10 BP doubling BP bug type move which nobody should use in RSE, Fury Swipes is the 18 BP multihit normal type move.

Honestly because of the potential to deal less damage and the (minor) utility Cut brings I think I’d prefer Cut but it’s barely an upgrade over Scratch.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Jumping back in. Posting mainly to say that Tate and Liza were a cakewalk with more optimized movesets. Altaria set up a DD, Absol critical killed the Xatu with Shadow Ball, and then SBall and Steel Wing killed both Lunatone and Solrock before they could act before Absol dropped to a third Earthquake. Altaria flew, Breloom Giga Drained for a third before dying to a Psychic, Fly did a third, and Beautifly cleaned up the last third off Claydol.

Time to redo the entire water route grind .cri