Quote walls aside I think you're the only person I've ever seen to prioritize training by total experience gain, everything I've ever done and everyone I've ever spoken to balances around level
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Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Merritt
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Most people naturally balance their parties by level rather than experience. Giving each Pokémon a fair chance to shine is not favouritism, unless you have to go to ridiculous lengths to prevent one party member from lagging behind.
I know it’s highly subjective and tough to pin down, but higher EXP requirements only detract from a Pokémon’s in-game viability if they feel onerous, or noticeably slow down your progression through the game.
The way you played was an interesting investigation into EXP group differences, but we already knew that the same amount of experience would get a Pokémon in one group to a different endgame level compared with a Pokémon from another group.
To punish a Pokémon for its EXP group first by criticising the need for extra experience to keep up and then assessing its performance without that extra experience is overly harsh. It sounds like a weird kind of double jeopardy haha. EDIT: to clarify, by ‘extra experience’ I mostly mean the EXP that went into overlevelling Grumpig, not more grinding.
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Yeah a Pokemon's Experience Group hardly ever comes into play; usually what determines how hard a Pokemon is to train is based much more on its moves. stats, route/boss matchups, even evolution level, etc.
I gave each Pokemon the same amount of experience because I wanted to test them as fairly as I could. In-game tiers is about return of investment, right? Was I wrong to attempt to apply "the scientific method" and try to keep one factor constant?
So if investment is based on subjective factors and "feeling onerous", then is the entire tier list subjective as well? Or is the determination of "feeling onerous" completely clear and objective and easy to understand for everyone except me? In that case, am I not qualified to participate in this discussion?
In this specific example, if I simply gave experience to whichever Pokemon was easiest to train, then stuff like Electrike, Spoink, and Carvanha would never have ended their initial weak stages. I would have swept the game with a Sceptile because that was the easiest thing to do. If we did this more generally, then the top of the tier list would be all the Pokemon that can start sweeping everything immediately (aka Rayquaza), and everything else would be considered useless because we're assuming nobody will put in the effort to make them useful.
And I don't really get the last part. This is still about return of investment, right? So lets say Seaking needs extra experience to perform as well as Swampert does. If we deny that extra experience to Seaking, then it will be worse (or "return less") than Swampert does. If we give Seaking that extra experience, then Seaking will have used more experience (or "invest more"). Seaking is worse than Swampert either way. I don't see what's so unfair about this way of thinking.
So if investment is based on subjective factors and "feeling onerous", then is the entire tier list subjective as well? Or is the determination of "feeling onerous" completely clear and objective and easy to understand for everyone except me? In that case, am I not qualified to participate in this discussion?
In this specific example, if I simply gave experience to whichever Pokemon was easiest to train, then stuff like Electrike, Spoink, and Carvanha would never have ended their initial weak stages. I would have swept the game with a Sceptile because that was the easiest thing to do. If we did this more generally, then the top of the tier list would be all the Pokemon that can start sweeping everything immediately (aka Rayquaza), and everything else would be considered useless because we're assuming nobody will put in the effort to make them useful.
Okay yes, the training for the Norman battle did feel like grinding, but after that, for the most part, my Pokemon were equally good route clearers. (except Camerupt. Camerupt was bad) Was I wrong to give my equally good route clearers equal amounts of experience?
And I don't really get the last part. This is still about return of investment, right? So lets say Seaking needs extra experience to perform as well as Swampert does. If we deny that extra experience to Seaking, then it will be worse (or "return less") than Swampert does. If we give Seaking that extra experience, then Seaking will have used more experience (or "invest more"). Seaking is worse than Swampert either way. I don't see what's so unfair about this way of thinking.
This is a pretty poor example; Seaking would need an absolutely ludicrous level advantage over Swampert to even be comparable. For instance, Seaking would need its Surfs to OHKO things where Swampert's Surfs fail to, and even then there's still simply no bridging the gap between Swampert's STAB Earthquake and anything else Seaking can get.
This could also be interpreted as the experience that early Electrike would have already gotten by the time you obtain Spoink, meaning that even though the Fast growth rate Spoink should reach level 32 from lv 20/22 faster than Slow growth rate lv 12 Electrike reaches level 26, it should take less time to get Manectric before you get Grumpig simply because Electrike had a headstart. That said, Experience group has little bearing on this, and level 12 Electrike still falls behind primarily because getting to level 20 Spark is kinda painful.
If we're looking at the realistic amount of investment most people would have for Spoink, it's not likely for it to be a Grumpig (without excessive level grinding) by the time you reach Norman if you don't fight every single trainer you can, such as the Desert trainers, the Mt Chimney trainers, & all of Norman's Gym trainers, and Spoink would need to switch train vs the latter since it's unlikely to handle them on its own. It's even more unlikely to have the resources to buy the Psychic TM unless you minmax your selling resources, and level grinding for Psychic is just as difficult since hitting lv 32 for Grumpig is already a reach as mentioned earlier. This is why your claim of Grumpig's performance against Norman is considered to be somewhat of an anomaly (though its performance as a Grumpig Winona-onward is within expectations for the most part).
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I don't think a "scientific method" is needed here tho nor is the whole tier list subjective in the negative connotation you seem to be saying (of course the list is actually subjective but that's because we all have our own opinions, hence this thread discussion; it's not like there is a concrete formula to determine the best pokemon in order). The way I think most (correct me if wrong) people play pokemon is a sort of "play it by ear" method. You use stuff at various times for various reasons to match the situation. Take your examples of Sceptile, Carvanha, Spoink and Electrike. Most likely if that is your team, people will use the weak stuff at first to both catch them up in levels as well as get them out of that "weak stage" since we know what comes after; we know Sharpedo, Grumpig and Manectric are much better and want to get them to that stage as quick as possible.
After that, it kinda comes down to specific situations as to who will get the experience. Obviously, yes you could use Sceptile and just sweep most things. But then you encounter a large section of fire-type trainers (think Flannery or Team Magma); for the most part people will start giving their carvanha (or enter other super-effective type advantage) experience because it both helps Carvanha get stronger and makes your life easier for not making a pokemon with a type disadvantage try to sweep (aka more efficient to use the type advantage pokemon).
Like for me, in RSE, if I'm not using a grass-type, then when I hit the water routes, I'm willing to let an electric rack up experience because of how easy it is on me to keep moving forward quickly. I'm even willing to let that electric fall behind a few levels in the areas before the aforementioned water routes because I know it will catch up (and surpass) my other mons quickly; I also know that those electrics we've mentioned multiple times can struggle with other, more neutral matchups, so I want to let them get ahead while they can (and therefore maybe be of more help in the other matchups). Of course, this is just my rough philosophy or "rule of thumb" but the general principle holds that people are going to mix/switch up who gets experience to fit the given situation rather than a strict, "keep everyone at the same total experience" or some other arbitrary rule. (also talk about an inefficient use of time to keep checking everyone's total exp. and adjusting the team lol)
So Manectric had more experience the moment I got the Spoink. If I continued giving them equal experience, then Manectric would continue having more experience than Spoink. Is this what you're trying to say? And if we agree that Spoink is mostly useless against Norman, can it still move to B for its late-game usefulness?
I have definitely been over-analytic with these Pokemon for the most part, and I definitely did spend a lot of time checking all those summaries. (though I don't see why this rule is any less arbitrary than the one I used) What you said here makes sense, and it's what I sometimes do when I'm just playing by myself. Still, I don't want to do this on a test run because it might make accusations of "favoritism" more likely. I also get less confident about my own results when I'm not making very certain that I'm treating my Pokemon fairly. (it's probably OCD) So you guys aren't forcing me to do this "play by ear" thing, right? If I post another test run using some combination of these 2 approaches, it'll still be "valid"?
Having a different style of play definitely isn’t a bad thing! We all have our quirks when it comes to Pokémon playthroughs.
For example, I hate spamming healing items and I never use X-items. In fact, I’d rather grind my team a level or two than end up having to use more items in battle than my opponent has access to, which is an incredibly arbitrary and inefficient practice. I find it hard to shake this aversion even when I’m trying to think about in-game tiering during a run.
When thinking about tiering, I know that I have to account for my idiosyncrasies. If one of my team members would have been able to sweep a Gym Leader if I’d been willing to use three more Soda Pops, then that Pokémon deserves to have that battle listed as an excellent matchup for it. Conversely, if I do any grinding which I know is beyond what the average player wants to do on a quick run, I need to consider whether the extra level or two made a significant difference in the Pokémon’s performance.
It’s not an exact science. The lists wouldn’t be worth discussing if it were! You’re obviously putting a lot of effort into your analyses, so I’m sure it’s really frustrating to be told that elements of your playstyle clash with how other people play the games. Sadly, our reliance on subjective interpretations and anecdotal evidence means that we have to take a ‘majority rules’ approach.
I don’t think it’d hurt to try a more ‘conventional’ approach as described by other people in this thread, but don’t feel the need to play completely differently. All data is valuable and ‘valid’ as long as we know the context.
For example, I hate spamming healing items and I never use X-items. In fact, I’d rather grind my team a level or two than end up having to use more items in battle than my opponent has access to, which is an incredibly arbitrary and inefficient practice. I find it hard to shake this aversion even when I’m trying to think about in-game tiering during a run.
When thinking about tiering, I know that I have to account for my idiosyncrasies. If one of my team members would have been able to sweep a Gym Leader if I’d been willing to use three more Soda Pops, then that Pokémon deserves to have that battle listed as an excellent matchup for it. Conversely, if I do any grinding which I know is beyond what the average player wants to do on a quick run, I need to consider whether the extra level or two made a significant difference in the Pokémon’s performance.
It’s not an exact science. The lists wouldn’t be worth discussing if it were! You’re obviously putting a lot of effort into your analyses, so I’m sure it’s really frustrating to be told that elements of your playstyle clash with how other people play the games. Sadly, our reliance on subjective interpretations and anecdotal evidence means that we have to take a ‘majority rules’ approach.
I don’t think it’d hurt to try a more ‘conventional’ approach as described by other people in this thread, but don’t feel the need to play completely differently. All data is valuable and ‘valid’ as long as we know the context.
Finally figured out how to get Emerald emulated on my phone so I'll be trying out stuff I haven't used before/in a while, have just arrived in Dewford
Beautifly to this point has been decent, average up to level 13 and then Good once it gets Gust, this gym and area is likely its high point. We'll see if silver wind later on is enough to keep it relevant vs the late game psychics and darks
Shroomish has been terrific, mine is impish and it was able to hold it's own in wild fights right from level 6, didn't require switch grinding, it solo'd Roxanne from level 12 (13 mid-fight) using Stun Spore and Leech Seed to lock down Nosepass and used that combo as well to survive May when I didn't realize I was running a Bug type and a Grass type into a Torkoal. Pleasant surprise and above expectation so far.
I was going to use Whismur but I took a quick peek at it's level up moves and stats and good God that looks unbelievably awful and boring to use
Will use Whiscash, maybe Grumpig, and who knows what else
Edit: Dewford went as you'd expect, both mains at level 18 entering slateport
Edit: decided I'll use Claydol, Banette, Lanturn, and Absol, and will swap Beautifly for Altaria
Beautifly to this point has been decent, average up to level 13 and then Good once it gets Gust, this gym and area is likely its high point. We'll see if silver wind later on is enough to keep it relevant vs the late game psychics and darks
Shroomish has been terrific, mine is impish and it was able to hold it's own in wild fights right from level 6, didn't require switch grinding, it solo'd Roxanne from level 12 (13 mid-fight) using Stun Spore and Leech Seed to lock down Nosepass and used that combo as well to survive May when I didn't realize I was running a Bug type and a Grass type into a Torkoal. Pleasant surprise and above expectation so far.
I was going to use Whismur but I took a quick peek at it's level up moves and stats and good God that looks unbelievably awful and boring to use
Will use Whiscash, maybe Grumpig, and who knows what else
Edit: Dewford went as you'd expect, both mains at level 18 entering slateport
Edit: decided I'll use Claydol, Banette, Lanturn, and Absol, and will swap Beautifly for Altaria
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Starting to think there's an argument for Breloom/Shroomish to S, once it evolves and gets Bulk Up, Headbutt, and Mach Punch it's even more nutty than it already was. Solo'd Wattson straight up from level 24 when I arrived with Voltorb as easy Bulk Up fodder.
I would have thought the biggest arguments against are a weak early game and a bad mid-game gym stretch but one of those has already been invalidated
I would have thought the biggest arguments against are a weak early game and a bad mid-game gym stretch but one of those has already been invalidated
Doesn't the Voltorb self-destruct when you try to set up on it?
It did
I was very scared
I was only at ~65%
Then I laughed
I was still at ~35%
Voltorb Boom into +2 (or 3 idr if I set up once or twice on the Electrike, was +4 for Mag and Mane) Impish Loom is apparently very weak
Is your fourth move Leech Seed? That’s what I typically go with, since it makes setting up that much easier. I’ll be interested to hear how you rate Breloom’s performance for the rest of the game, since I tend to think there are juuuust enough poor matchups to stop it from reaching S.
It is, I was keeping Stun Spore until I decided to go with Bulk Up
I guess I'll talk about what I have been using on my current Sapphire playthrough (Up to the league and will probably tackle it once I am confident I can keep Spikes off the field for Steven).
Nincada / Shedinja
This was quite the thing to use TBH. Nincada was an absolute pain to level up (until getting Secret Power) and efficiency wise was just terrible. Erratic EXP Curve made levelling it up early on a big struggle (especially when it couldn't deal much damage on its own) and for the most part, was relying on Fury Swipes as offence. Just to illustrate, I skipped a bunch of trainers before Dewford and it only gained like three-four levels going back to fight them. I did get a couple of Gym Leader solos with it (Brawly, Wattson), but both were very slow going, relying on an X-Attack or two, a Dire Hit, and Silk Scarf for boosting Fury Swipes. Brawly was better as it only needed one heal and Dire Hit did its job, but Wattson was just full on Sand-Attack reliance vs. Magnemite and Magneton and ultimately needing an Ether because it was that bad and out of what I was using, there wasn't a better option (we'll get there soon, don't worry). Things got better at least, though I deliberately delayed Nincada's evolution to Lv25 to get Swords Dance on Shedinja. This was worth it.
I got Shedinja in time for Flannery. We pretty much know what Shedinja does; it either walls everything or it just dies, not helped by low speed. That said, Shedinja wasn't completely useless for the Gym Leaders. For Flannery it outspeeds her Pokémon (unless your speed is shocking) and can at least get a Dig in, but mine wasn't strong enough to get the OHKO on either of her Pokémon. For Norman even though everything has Feint Attack, I took advantage of a HM Slave death abuse to get the Slaking into a Dig loop where it couldn't touch, but its Dig is only like a 9/10HKO so all it really does is just use up a Hyper Potion and weaken a Slaking for something else to finish off. For Winona it just picked off a paralysed Altaria and didn't do much else. It also no sells Liza and Tate's Lunatone and all of Wallace's team (outside of Luvdisc Sweet Kiss), and tell's Wally's Gardevoir where to go. For field clearing it's alright but you need to pay attention in case the trainer has something that can snipe you. Team Magma/Aqua is just a case of "just don't", same for Rival.
For the Elite Four Shedinja will be pretty limited but has uses against each member. It no sells Sidney's Shiftry, Glacia's Walrein (when Hail is off), Drake's Altaria, and Steven's Claydol, Aggron, and Metagross (If you manage to keep Spikes off the field because Skarmory is a jerk). Phoebe is Shedinja's worst matchup because everything can take it out but it can at least Shadow Ball a Dusclops (unless your speed is THAT terrible).
It's movepool is pretty bad as a Nincada outside of Secret Power and Dig after Wattson, but waiting until Lv25 to evolve and teaching Ninjask (and by extension, Shedinja) Swords Dance is worth it as it really helps out its offence and no selling some mons means it will get opportunities to set up. As a Shedinja, the only extra offensive move worth getting is Shadow Ball (Lv38 or get it early via Mt. Pyre TM) which REALLY helps its offence out. As for its Tiering it is definitely E-Rank. As a Shedinja because of its uniqueness it's better than E-Rank, but the Nincada section is that awful and inefficient that it has no business being anywhere above it.
Electrike / Manectric
Yes I decided to test this out myself. I went for the super early Electrike here (just beeline for it without fighting anything as soon as you get the boat) for levels on trainers and because I only had Nincada otherwise. The best thing I can say about Electrike in the earlygame is it gets Howl, allowing me to save on X-Items and giving it set-up potential. Other than that, the earlygame is just bad and relying on Tackle/Quick Attack and Thunder Wave paralysis (and I guess Howl) is just inefficient. It can solo Rival 2 with Quick Attack, just that it needs time to set up to +6 Attack, it needs to not get burn-trolled by Numel (if you started Mudkip, the other Torchic starter has it worse because Shroomish can Paralyse/Leech Seed, while Treecko starter is alright, but Wailmer if you are unlucky can just get into a big Rollout on you), and then sweep, which is still hard because they all live a hit and deal decent damage in return. And that is pretty much the story of early Electrike. Then it gets Spark. And suddenly, things get a lot better as it can finally do things and more efficiently than before. And it only kinda gets better from there with Thunderbolt from New Mauville and Thunder if you want to try and stop Steven's Skarmory from setting up Spikes.
As for some major fights, Electrike/Manectric handle Team Aqua superbly without too many issues (once you get Spark). Archie 2 is hilarious as all you need to do is use Guard Spec while Mightyena is out and you have four turns to use X-Items and sweep while Mightyena just... fails to lower your speed with Scary Face. For Flannery Electrike can do decent damage (It can 2HKO the Slugma but it's a damage range) and/or paralyse enemies but it gets one-shot by Overheat. Manectric fares a little better having guaranteed 2HKO's but Overheat deals mighty DMG to it. Norman it was actually useful, dealing with the Vigoroth without many issues and picking off a Slaking. It can paralyse the Slaking which is annoying for Facade, but I got lucky with Norman and Seviper finished that job. Winona it does as well as you expect, but Altaria is a problem with Dragon Dance and Earthquake... Good thing for paralysis. Liza and Tate isn't a strong matchup but it does alright. Wallace is a good matchup but you need something for Whiscash and Milotic will need some X-Items if you want to OHKO it. Wally is an alright matchup.
Pokémon League should be alright for it being able to contribute against something at least (especially against Glacia) and has a pretty critical role if I want to beat Steven because Skarmory loves using Spikes and unless I want to X-Item cheese, I kinda need Shedinja for Metagross...
Its coverage is nothing special. Just Normal-type moves until Spark and from there on in, it's Electric-type moves with your only Special-type coverage being Bite. Thunder Wave is good support. It misses having access to Flamethrower like in later games though that needs some money spent for coins. I guess teammates exist if you really need the coverage, but that doesn't reflect too well on it. As for its tiering, I think it's B-Rank. Either you get it early and put up with its bad phase or you get it after Surf and have it underleveled and missing some contributions (not that it's a bad thing) and having no EV's (which can have some long term sketchiness). Whether it is more efficient to get it early or late I don't really know; it ultimately depends on your party. Once it gets decent moves it gets good and can hold its own, yes I agree, but it doesn't get amazing like you'd expect from something like Gardevoir or idk.
Seviper
And this is the last thing I tested. The best thing about Seviper is that it's useful out of the gate and compared to the other two I have been using, it was like a breath of fresh air. Poison Tail is immediately useful and helps for field trainers and Bite (and later Crunch) is useful coverage. It levels up quite fast at first. Screech comes soon after you get it and can be useful albeit niche, and Glare for paralysing things can be really helpful, especially given its Speed is its Achille's Heel (more on that soon). It gets Sludge Bomb after Norman which gives it a good STAB move for the rest of the game though 10 PP really sucks. It also learns decent coverage from TM's with Dig / Earthquake and Flamethrower (Game Corner please) being some decent moves from it. Shed Skin is also helpful when it decides to work. However, not everything is sunshine and rainbows for it.
As I said, its Speed is its Achille's Heel. Sure, it gets Glare to help deal with it, and Base 65 Speed isn't that bad, but it's quite middling (though that might be because I got a Seviper with bad Speed). Bad Speed can hurt for obvious reasons: You can dish out hurt, but they will get a chance to hurt you first, and Seviper isn't the bulkiest thing around. This really came to a head in Victory Road which made me not want to lead with it underleveled because of random Golbats not letting you escape and Air Cuttering you into using Potions.
As for battles, its field trainer record is definitely good. You can just catch it and it already does work on field trainers and continues to do so throughout the game. The major battles aren't as kind though. It has a good rival matchup (outside of Marshtomp), and it does well against Wally. Team Aqua is also alright but its lack of speed means that Sharpedos and Golbats can be a problem (especially Golbats) while Mightyena can be annoying to deal with. Flannery it can two shot Slugmas (damage range) but it struggles with Torkoal and mostly relies on paraflinchhax with Bite (or Dig if you want to go down that route). Norman is okayish but I didn't read too much into that. Winona I didn't need Seviper really but it should do alright outside of a non-paralysed Altaria (Skarmory can be Flamethrowered I guess). Liza and Tate is a bad matchup as it gets one shot by Psychic and is generally outsped, but put some Paralysis up and it can do things with Crunch. Also Screech was useful here for helping Shedinja on Lunatone because I didn't go for the Mt Pyre Shadow Ball TM and Shedinja didn't hit Lv38 by those two. Wallace it could do work for Luvdisc and Sealeo, but the other three aren't really good matchups for it (Seaking might be okay but didn't check, Horn Drill sucks and Sheddy no-selled Wallace which is why the uncertainty).
The Pokémon League doesn't look too great for it either. Sidney is a decent matchup and Phoebe should be decent outside of Sableye thanks to Crunch (though the Dusclops probably live a couple of Crunches). Glacia should be an okay matchup outside of Hail and Glalie outspeeding, while Drake and Steven are bad matchups (Drake because of the Flygon and Salamence, Steven because of Claydol and Metagross [and Skarmory if you don't have Flamethrower]) though it has some Pokémon where it could do something.
D-Rank is an accurate assessment for Seviper I feel. It can definitely do things, but it doesn't have any major fights that are free for one reason or another. It can definitely take some Pokémon out, but it's not going to sweep well because despite having good offences, its middling speed, its bulk not being great, and Poison not being a great offensive typing really don't help it out.
Nincada / Shedinja
This was quite the thing to use TBH. Nincada was an absolute pain to level up (until getting Secret Power) and efficiency wise was just terrible. Erratic EXP Curve made levelling it up early on a big struggle (especially when it couldn't deal much damage on its own) and for the most part, was relying on Fury Swipes as offence. Just to illustrate, I skipped a bunch of trainers before Dewford and it only gained like three-four levels going back to fight them. I did get a couple of Gym Leader solos with it (Brawly, Wattson), but both were very slow going, relying on an X-Attack or two, a Dire Hit, and Silk Scarf for boosting Fury Swipes. Brawly was better as it only needed one heal and Dire Hit did its job, but Wattson was just full on Sand-Attack reliance vs. Magnemite and Magneton and ultimately needing an Ether because it was that bad and out of what I was using, there wasn't a better option (we'll get there soon, don't worry). Things got better at least, though I deliberately delayed Nincada's evolution to Lv25 to get Swords Dance on Shedinja. This was worth it.
I got Shedinja in time for Flannery. We pretty much know what Shedinja does; it either walls everything or it just dies, not helped by low speed. That said, Shedinja wasn't completely useless for the Gym Leaders. For Flannery it outspeeds her Pokémon (unless your speed is shocking) and can at least get a Dig in, but mine wasn't strong enough to get the OHKO on either of her Pokémon. For Norman even though everything has Feint Attack, I took advantage of a HM Slave death abuse to get the Slaking into a Dig loop where it couldn't touch, but its Dig is only like a 9/10HKO so all it really does is just use up a Hyper Potion and weaken a Slaking for something else to finish off. For Winona it just picked off a paralysed Altaria and didn't do much else. It also no sells Liza and Tate's Lunatone and all of Wallace's team (outside of Luvdisc Sweet Kiss), and tell's Wally's Gardevoir where to go. For field clearing it's alright but you need to pay attention in case the trainer has something that can snipe you. Team Magma/Aqua is just a case of "just don't", same for Rival.
For the Elite Four Shedinja will be pretty limited but has uses against each member. It no sells Sidney's Shiftry, Glacia's Walrein (when Hail is off), Drake's Altaria, and Steven's Claydol, Aggron, and Metagross (If you manage to keep Spikes off the field because Skarmory is a jerk). Phoebe is Shedinja's worst matchup because everything can take it out but it can at least Shadow Ball a Dusclops (unless your speed is THAT terrible).
It's movepool is pretty bad as a Nincada outside of Secret Power and Dig after Wattson, but waiting until Lv25 to evolve and teaching Ninjask (and by extension, Shedinja) Swords Dance is worth it as it really helps out its offence and no selling some mons means it will get opportunities to set up. As a Shedinja, the only extra offensive move worth getting is Shadow Ball (Lv38 or get it early via Mt. Pyre TM) which REALLY helps its offence out. As for its Tiering it is definitely E-Rank. As a Shedinja because of its uniqueness it's better than E-Rank, but the Nincada section is that awful and inefficient that it has no business being anywhere above it.
Electrike / Manectric
Yes I decided to test this out myself. I went for the super early Electrike here (just beeline for it without fighting anything as soon as you get the boat) for levels on trainers and because I only had Nincada otherwise. The best thing I can say about Electrike in the earlygame is it gets Howl, allowing me to save on X-Items and giving it set-up potential. Other than that, the earlygame is just bad and relying on Tackle/Quick Attack and Thunder Wave paralysis (and I guess Howl) is just inefficient. It can solo Rival 2 with Quick Attack, just that it needs time to set up to +6 Attack, it needs to not get burn-trolled by Numel (if you started Mudkip, the other Torchic starter has it worse because Shroomish can Paralyse/Leech Seed, while Treecko starter is alright, but Wailmer if you are unlucky can just get into a big Rollout on you), and then sweep, which is still hard because they all live a hit and deal decent damage in return. And that is pretty much the story of early Electrike. Then it gets Spark. And suddenly, things get a lot better as it can finally do things and more efficiently than before. And it only kinda gets better from there with Thunderbolt from New Mauville and Thunder if you want to try and stop Steven's Skarmory from setting up Spikes.
As for some major fights, Electrike/Manectric handle Team Aqua superbly without too many issues (once you get Spark). Archie 2 is hilarious as all you need to do is use Guard Spec while Mightyena is out and you have four turns to use X-Items and sweep while Mightyena just... fails to lower your speed with Scary Face. For Flannery Electrike can do decent damage (It can 2HKO the Slugma but it's a damage range) and/or paralyse enemies but it gets one-shot by Overheat. Manectric fares a little better having guaranteed 2HKO's but Overheat deals mighty DMG to it. Norman it was actually useful, dealing with the Vigoroth without many issues and picking off a Slaking. It can paralyse the Slaking which is annoying for Facade, but I got lucky with Norman and Seviper finished that job. Winona it does as well as you expect, but Altaria is a problem with Dragon Dance and Earthquake... Good thing for paralysis. Liza and Tate isn't a strong matchup but it does alright. Wallace is a good matchup but you need something for Whiscash and Milotic will need some X-Items if you want to OHKO it. Wally is an alright matchup.
Pokémon League should be alright for it being able to contribute against something at least (especially against Glacia) and has a pretty critical role if I want to beat Steven because Skarmory loves using Spikes and unless I want to X-Item cheese, I kinda need Shedinja for Metagross...
Its coverage is nothing special. Just Normal-type moves until Spark and from there on in, it's Electric-type moves with your only Special-type coverage being Bite. Thunder Wave is good support. It misses having access to Flamethrower like in later games though that needs some money spent for coins. I guess teammates exist if you really need the coverage, but that doesn't reflect too well on it. As for its tiering, I think it's B-Rank. Either you get it early and put up with its bad phase or you get it after Surf and have it underleveled and missing some contributions (not that it's a bad thing) and having no EV's (which can have some long term sketchiness). Whether it is more efficient to get it early or late I don't really know; it ultimately depends on your party. Once it gets decent moves it gets good and can hold its own, yes I agree, but it doesn't get amazing like you'd expect from something like Gardevoir or idk.
Badge Boost adds a 1.1× boost to SpA which means you may not need to hit these numbers and OHKOing at Lv39 or less is possible with huge investment.
Lv39 or less cannot OHKO, With 0 EV's and 15 IV's in Speed, Manectric needs to hit Lv44 to outspeed
Lv40-41: 121 (OHKO chance)
Lv42: 121 (OHKO chance), 130 (50+% chance)
Lv43-44: 115 (OHKO chance), 124 (50+% chance), 135 (guaranteed)
Lv45-47: 109 (OHKO chance), 117 (50+% chance), 128 (guaranteed)
Lv48-49: 105 [min]/107 [min] (6.25%/18.75% chance), 112 (50+% chance), 122 (guaranteed)
Lv50: 110 [min] (62.5% chance), 117 (guaranteed)
Lv39 or less cannot OHKO, With 0 EV's and 15 IV's in Speed, Manectric needs to hit Lv44 to outspeed
Lv40-41: 121 (OHKO chance)
Lv42: 121 (OHKO chance), 130 (50+% chance)
Lv43-44: 115 (OHKO chance), 124 (50+% chance), 135 (guaranteed)
Lv45-47: 109 (OHKO chance), 117 (50+% chance), 128 (guaranteed)
Lv48-49: 105 [min]/107 [min] (6.25%/18.75% chance), 112 (50+% chance), 122 (guaranteed)
Lv50: 110 [min] (62.5% chance), 117 (guaranteed)
Seviper
And this is the last thing I tested. The best thing about Seviper is that it's useful out of the gate and compared to the other two I have been using, it was like a breath of fresh air. Poison Tail is immediately useful and helps for field trainers and Bite (and later Crunch) is useful coverage. It levels up quite fast at first. Screech comes soon after you get it and can be useful albeit niche, and Glare for paralysing things can be really helpful, especially given its Speed is its Achille's Heel (more on that soon). It gets Sludge Bomb after Norman which gives it a good STAB move for the rest of the game though 10 PP really sucks. It also learns decent coverage from TM's with Dig / Earthquake and Flamethrower (Game Corner please) being some decent moves from it. Shed Skin is also helpful when it decides to work. However, not everything is sunshine and rainbows for it.
As I said, its Speed is its Achille's Heel. Sure, it gets Glare to help deal with it, and Base 65 Speed isn't that bad, but it's quite middling (though that might be because I got a Seviper with bad Speed). Bad Speed can hurt for obvious reasons: You can dish out hurt, but they will get a chance to hurt you first, and Seviper isn't the bulkiest thing around. This really came to a head in Victory Road which made me not want to lead with it underleveled because of random Golbats not letting you escape and Air Cuttering you into using Potions.
As for battles, its field trainer record is definitely good. You can just catch it and it already does work on field trainers and continues to do so throughout the game. The major battles aren't as kind though. It has a good rival matchup (outside of Marshtomp), and it does well against Wally. Team Aqua is also alright but its lack of speed means that Sharpedos and Golbats can be a problem (especially Golbats) while Mightyena can be annoying to deal with. Flannery it can two shot Slugmas (damage range) but it struggles with Torkoal and mostly relies on paraflinchhax with Bite (or Dig if you want to go down that route). Norman is okayish but I didn't read too much into that. Winona I didn't need Seviper really but it should do alright outside of a non-paralysed Altaria (Skarmory can be Flamethrowered I guess). Liza and Tate is a bad matchup as it gets one shot by Psychic and is generally outsped, but put some Paralysis up and it can do things with Crunch. Also Screech was useful here for helping Shedinja on Lunatone because I didn't go for the Mt Pyre Shadow Ball TM and Shedinja didn't hit Lv38 by those two. Wallace it could do work for Luvdisc and Sealeo, but the other three aren't really good matchups for it (Seaking might be okay but didn't check, Horn Drill sucks and Sheddy no-selled Wallace which is why the uncertainty).
The Pokémon League doesn't look too great for it either. Sidney is a decent matchup and Phoebe should be decent outside of Sableye thanks to Crunch (though the Dusclops probably live a couple of Crunches). Glacia should be an okay matchup outside of Hail and Glalie outspeeding, while Drake and Steven are bad matchups (Drake because of the Flygon and Salamence, Steven because of Claydol and Metagross [and Skarmory if you don't have Flamethrower]) though it has some Pokémon where it could do something.
D-Rank is an accurate assessment for Seviper I feel. It can definitely do things, but it doesn't have any major fights that are free for one reason or another. It can definitely take some Pokémon out, but it's not going to sweep well because despite having good offences, its middling speed, its bulk not being great, and Poison not being a great offensive typing really don't help it out.
Post Norman update, sitting well over 100k (or would be if I didn't die to Norman cheesing me twice...Counter...)
Baltoy: currently level 23, nothing much to comment on it since you can't get it until after Flannery. Pretty weak but can handily manage weaker enemies.
Swablu: level 30 with Secret Power and Steel Wing. Doing alright, grinding vs trainers with this TM investment definitely makes it much more manageable than trying to do it with Peck. Not very strong but it's fast enough and pretty fat to usually 2HKO stuff. Feels more C than D if you're willing to invest those two TMs (which shouldn't have much competition)
Breloom: level 34. Still a beast. Solo'd Norman as you'd expect though it needed +4 instead of +3 to OHKO Slaking with Mach Punch as I found out to an untimely Counter. Also pseudo-swept Flannery, was able to set up to +2 or +3 on her Slugma after it had used Overheat once and OHKO Slugma and Camerupt, chunked Torkoal before dying to Overheat but was able to finish Torkoal off after being healed, it tanked a -2 Overheat from full, just barely. Feeling very S tier right now.
Beautifly level 32: decent enough. Not terrible all things considered, Gust is manageably strong enough for the time being with Mega Drain supporting and Stun Spore is helpful. It's early game performance has been passable enough that it could warrant a D rise, but it's late game might invalidate that.
I felt a little overlevelled since roughly Slateport but I've fought a minimal amount of wild Pokemon so I imagine it's just a side effect of training Pokemon that have generally faster exp curves at early levels (Swablu excepted). Beautifly and Breloom both hit 30 very shortly after Mauville actually so I skipped most of the trainers to fast track to Swablu and circled around to give her all the trainer experience to catch up, worked out very efficiently.
Baltoy: currently level 23, nothing much to comment on it since you can't get it until after Flannery. Pretty weak but can handily manage weaker enemies.
Swablu: level 30 with Secret Power and Steel Wing. Doing alright, grinding vs trainers with this TM investment definitely makes it much more manageable than trying to do it with Peck. Not very strong but it's fast enough and pretty fat to usually 2HKO stuff. Feels more C than D if you're willing to invest those two TMs (which shouldn't have much competition)
Breloom: level 34. Still a beast. Solo'd Norman as you'd expect though it needed +4 instead of +3 to OHKO Slaking with Mach Punch as I found out to an untimely Counter. Also pseudo-swept Flannery, was able to set up to +2 or +3 on her Slugma after it had used Overheat once and OHKO Slugma and Camerupt, chunked Torkoal before dying to Overheat but was able to finish Torkoal off after being healed, it tanked a -2 Overheat from full, just barely. Feeling very S tier right now.
Beautifly level 32: decent enough. Not terrible all things considered, Gust is manageably strong enough for the time being with Mega Drain supporting and Stun Spore is helpful. It's early game performance has been passable enough that it could warrant a D rise, but it's late game might invalidate that.
I felt a little overlevelled since roughly Slateport but I've fought a minimal amount of wild Pokemon so I imagine it's just a side effect of training Pokemon that have generally faster exp curves at early levels (Swablu excepted). Beautifly and Breloom both hit 30 very shortly after Mauville actually so I skipped most of the trainers to fast track to Swablu and circled around to give her all the trainer experience to catch up, worked out very efficiently.
7 months ago:
All Breloom really asks of you are the obligatory healing items and sometimes X Speed to blitz past certain fast mons in important matchups to ensure a clean sweep, though it does have hard-losing matchups vs Phoebe and Emerald Tate&Liza. Interestingly (and I know sumwun is gonna gobble this up), but Shroomish is in the Fluctuating Exp group. This means it grows extraordinarily fast up until level 36, where its namesake Exp group starts to take effect. However, this is the exact level where Loom gets Sky Uppercut, so while it no longer grows at a rather consistently fast rate, it more than makes up for it by killing things easier than ever before.
Behold the difference between theorycrafting and actually testing shit out in the field. Then again I haven't actually touched RSE in years but at least I know how in-game stuff works.
All Breloom really asks of you are the obligatory healing items and sometimes X Speed to blitz past certain fast mons in important matchups to ensure a clean sweep, though it does have hard-losing matchups vs Phoebe and Emerald Tate&Liza. Interestingly (and I know sumwun is gonna gobble this up), but Shroomish is in the Fluctuating Exp group. This means it grows extraordinarily fast up until level 36, where its namesake Exp group starts to take effect. However, this is the exact level where Loom gets Sky Uppercut, so while it no longer grows at a rather consistently fast rate, it more than makes up for it by killing things easier than ever before.
Wasn't theorycrafting then. Was going off old experiences. Current experiences change perspectives.
UPDATE: Cleared out all the water routes to train up stuff. Average level of team is now 35 leaving the left half of the map. Couple quick comments, Baltoy picked up around level 28 where it didn't need to be babied anymore, became quite a usable route cleaner. Dropped two Rare Candies once it hit 34 to get it to Claydol and picked up Psychic for it, should be a major player going forward (also invested the Dig TM because lolMudSlap). Swablu continued to be a tank through route cleaning, can't OHKO anything but is very bulky and will consistently 2HKO stuff. Evolved into Altaria at the end of route 108 and the couple battles after saw a massive power spike with Dragonbreath included, very promising. Beautifly continues to surprise, also being quite bulky with Morning Sun and with a movepool that while shallow is quite effectively matched against water route stuff. It appears to me that it will continue to be an effective route cleaner and can chip in with major battles. A moveset of Silver Wind / Giga Drain / Aerial Ace (after Winona) / Morning Sun appears to be quite passable (Tate and Liza, parts of Juan, Dark types in Magma/Aqua, Sidney)
Based on performance through the precise point of the mid-game I would advocate Shroomish to S, Beautifly up to D, Baltoy up to D, and Swablu to stay in C
I think I'm going to have to drop Shuppet from this test, I do want to test Absol and I'll need Lanturn for Surfing, and since I've decided to continue with Beautifly...
UPDATE: Cleared out all the water routes to train up stuff. Average level of team is now 35 leaving the left half of the map. Couple quick comments, Baltoy picked up around level 28 where it didn't need to be babied anymore, became quite a usable route cleaner. Dropped two Rare Candies once it hit 34 to get it to Claydol and picked up Psychic for it, should be a major player going forward (also invested the Dig TM because lolMudSlap). Swablu continued to be a tank through route cleaning, can't OHKO anything but is very bulky and will consistently 2HKO stuff. Evolved into Altaria at the end of route 108 and the couple battles after saw a massive power spike with Dragonbreath included, very promising. Beautifly continues to surprise, also being quite bulky with Morning Sun and with a movepool that while shallow is quite effectively matched against water route stuff. It appears to me that it will continue to be an effective route cleaner and can chip in with major battles. A moveset of Silver Wind / Giga Drain / Aerial Ace (after Winona) / Morning Sun appears to be quite passable (Tate and Liza, parts of Juan, Dark types in Magma/Aqua, Sidney)
Based on performance through the precise point of the mid-game I would advocate Shroomish to S, Beautifly up to D, Baltoy up to D, and Swablu to stay in C
I think I'm going to have to drop Shuppet from this test, I do want to test Absol and I'll need Lanturn for Surfing, and since I've decided to continue with Beautifly...
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Its_A_Random There are a bunch of C tier Pokemon that also come pretty early and can also help in a bunch of gyms if X items are used. What makes Manectric better than all of them?
The fact that it actually does things once it gets Spark and it actually has good STAB with strong special sweepiness to back it up. There is nothing in C-Rank whose efficiency comes up to snuff with it because they either come late, have the speed but not the offence to really back it up, have the offence but not the speed, or are only C-Rank for other reasons (such as HM slave role compression or needing a lot of money to buy a critical TM from the Game Corner). Manectric isn't very reliant on X-Items and generally only needs one or two at most. Even early-game Electrike isn't reliant because it has Howl and Quick Attack to cover its bases. The only time I used a fair bit of X-Items on Manectric was Archie 2 and that was only because of AI Abuse with Guard Spec giving free time to set up. You also have the option of waiting after Norman and it can still be useful despite missed EV's. Furthermore its matchups are good enough that Team Aqua cannot do much and it can reasonably contribute all the way up to the very end with regards to major fights.
Electrike is far and away not C-Rank and it for reasons previously stated isn't A-Rank.
Besides, I wasn't even asking for a move to B-Rank; more or less affirming that the status quo of B-Rank was fair for it.
There are at least 3 C tier Pokemon (or evolution families) that are comparable to and maybe better than Manectric. There's Zubat, which comes around the same time as early Electrike, and Psyduck, which comes around the same time as post-Norman Manectric. They have slightly lower base attack stats but can offset that with better growth rates and movepools (and calm mind in Psyduck's case). Heracross also comes around the same time as post-Norman Manectric, and Heracross has significantly better stats. It's slightly slower but can still outspeed almost everything Manectric can outspeed. Heracross isn't as good against Winona, Tate and Liza, and Wallace, but Manectric isn't as good against just about everyone else. Then of course there might be Spoink, but the Electrike versus Spoink argument from last week didn't go too well.
Having used Psyduck relatively recently, I do want to say that missing out on basically all of Route 119, 120, and 121 is definitely a downside for Psyduck vs Manectric in a post Norman scenario. It’s missing out on a bunch of fairly easy trainer levels since Manectric eats those up for the most part with Thunderbolt. Psyduck also wasn’t very fast at beating the water routes - it’s not like it ever lost but if I was leading Psyduck then fights definitely turned into a slower slugfest more often than not. I did still lead Golduck because it didn’t take much damage back but it wasn’t particularly pleasant.
In return for that of course Psyduck has a better Winona matchup (although it isn’t an insignificant backtrack), a better Tate&Liza matchup, and tears through Victory Road better than I think Manectric ever has. They’re roughly even in terms of E4, although I think I’d probably call Golduck a little better there.
However it’s not a completely insignificant gap in their availability, Manectric should be starting off with a noticeable level advantage, and the faster sea routes and so easy snowball there mean I do believe that Manectric is superior to Psyduck.
Heracross is definitely one of the better C rank mons, and I do believe it can go to B rank. It has its own issues, but I’m not going to go into as much detail. It does have a similar availabiltity disadvantage as Psyduck vs Manectric, in return for more power and better E4 matchups.
Zubat’s various qualities, if other people are interested, have been discussed at some length earlier in the thread.
Golduck can't outspeed the sea route Pokemon and one-shot them with normal attacks? Those trainers have always seemed pretty weak to me.
Usually could one shot the Wingull with Ice Beam while the Carvanha didn't take Surfs and Tentacool went down to Confusions once Golduck had levels under its belt, but Surf and Ice Beam are not conducive to one shotting the not frail Water-types used by trainers in general, no.
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